Web Access Over Power Lines

anaesthetica writes "The CSMonitor is reporting that power companies may now be able to break into the internet provider market, giving consumers a third option, outside of telephone and cable companies. From the article, "Broadband over Power Lines (BPL), with investments from big-name companies including Google and IBM, is beginning to move beyond small trial projects to deploying systems for large communities." Earthlink may offer BPL as soon as next year. Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios."

Comments

Near first post

[Kawahee]

I think that it's a good idea, but users won't be switching soon. The only thing that might encourage users to switch to the power providers is if they can provide a way better plan, or they just want the convenience of paying it off on their power bill.

Re:Near first post

[Sharth]

or if it's, you know, cheaper?

Re:Near first post

[Maxite]

I'm sure that under the Power Companies, you have to buy electricity off of them as well. No electricity, no internet. So yeah, you'll be suckered in by them as well by paying for a service that you may not want.

Hams

[kevin_conaway]

Recently BPL companies offered to "notch out" that part of the BPL signal that conflicts with ham broadcasts, but the controversy appears to be far from settled.

The article was light on the details of why the hams are opposed to this, except for the issue of whether or not it will interfere with their signals. If the BPL companies are offering to NOT interfere with the signal, why is there still opposition?

On another note, not to be a dick, but how can a bunch of hams form a "major" opposition against the power companies, IBM, Google etc?

Re:Hams

[LiquidCoooled]

I would assume that the Ham radio users would be the first to know about disruption to their signals in the same way that us geeks are the first to know or care about SCO lawsuits.
They will oppose anything which further clouds their airwaves.

Re:Hams

[josecanuc]

The opposition, even with the offer of notching the offending frequencies, is that the notches that have been demonstrated don't do enough.

You could say it lessens the interference by 50% or so, and that's not enough because ANY increase in the "noise floor" (the background signal that exists on a frequency which a signal must overcome in order to be heard) makes it more difficult for ham radio operators to use the frequency spectrum that they are licensed to use.

One solution would be for ham radio operators to just increase the power they use. Unfortunately, most hams operate (on HF anyway) at their full power capacity. Also many hams enjoy the challenge of low-power communications of 5W or less (worldwide communications are possible on under 5W).

The principle of the thing is that why should a commercial venture be able to do the things that, so far, no one has been allowed to do: emit RF across such an immense spectrum of frequencies, including those for which others have what the FCC calls "primary" usage granted to them.

The ARRL has said that they do support a Motorola solution because it does not add any interference to the ham radio frequencies. So not all BPL is bad. Ham radio operators are opposed to those that are bad.

Re:Hams

[Anonymous Coward]

here
is a graph of the licensed frequencies that some hams think that the unlicensed BPL technology will pollute (blacked out).

Hams are fond of shortwave because it allows people to communicate around the globe (not only line-of-sight).

Re:Hams

[querist]

As an Amateur Radio Operator I think I may be able to answer this question.

Firstly, there are a fairly large number of licensed operators. Not everyone is active in the hobby, but it is the number of licensed operators that the ARRL (American Radio Relay League -- Amateur Radio's main 'club', so to speak) uses when confronting the FCC and other regulatory bodies (including Congress) about issues that are a concern to Amateur Radio.

Secondly, as previously reported on Slashdot (no, I cannot find the article at the moment) the BPL companies' attempts to "notch out" the part of the BPL signal that interferes with Amateur Radio transmissions have not been very effective.

Thirdly, while BPL is certainly a good idea in theory, and I for one would welcome our new BPL overlords if they can dispose with the interference on the Amateur Radio bands, there are still technical details to work out before it can be used harmoniously in conjunction with existing services, including Amateur Radio.

Remember, Amateur Radio serves a critical role during emergencies to provide communication when other means are not available. If those power lines go down there will be no interference, but what if they are still up and there is a major emergency? Also, many Amateur bands are close to other public service bands. Yes, I know that the police are using cell phones now, but unless there is something that allows the cell towers to give priority to the police phones over my phone they police may be unable to communicate in an emergency.

I know our local ambulance service uses radio. So does our fire service. BPL will interfere with them as well, though not to the same extent because they are shorter range.

A little interference is not such a big deal with shorter range communications like the local fire and ambulance, but when you are trying to push a signal across the country, that small amount of interference is a major issue.

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this, but such is life. These are the main issues to the best of my understanding. Again, I would love to see BPL work. I live out in the boonies and I can't even get cable, never mind DSL.

Re:Hams

[Anonymous Coward]

Contrary to popular belief, we don't live in a military junta, and the law is honored. Spectrum has been allocated to the amateurs and it is the responsibility of the BPL providers to avoid stomping on it. The amateurs also have credibility, having provided the only available reliable communication during events such as the Florida hurricanes, eastern blackouts, and September 11th.

The real problem w/ BPL is that using it for long haul requires a costly investment by the utilities that has not been discussed. Don't know what causes it, but putting a massive inductance (e.g. transformer winding) on a high-speed data line tends to filter the data out (!!!).

So, one needs to put gear at all the subs, trannys and protection devices to provide bypassing for the data signals. The end result is that the communication data ends up using the existing fiber backbone until the last hop to the customer premise if the utility wants to avoid making a massive investment in duplicating telco and cable infrastructure. This makes BPL relatively less competitive except for servicing customers outside of existing xDSL and cable service areas.

Re:Hams

[Artful Codger]

The article was light on the details of why the hams are opposed to this, except for the issue of whether or not it will interfere with their signals. If the BPL companies are offering to NOT interfere with the signal, why is there still opposition?

Because the current definition of "not interfering with" is based on fairly loose standards, because BPL noise could ruin the opportunity to use other parts of the RF spectrum in the future, but mainly because power-cabling is unshielded and currently so inefficient at broadband frequencies that they will initially have to use alot of signal, and radiation will be a given, regardless of what's promised.

Think of this as background noise (eg like your neighbour's air conditioner). It may be quiet, but its noise still prevents you from hearing the birds clearly, the breeze in the trees, the buzz of the bees, etc. BPL radiation will reduce our ability to detect faint RF signals. When the extraterrestrials finally get around to thanking us for the LP on Voyager, we won't be able to hear them.

On another note, not to be a dick, but how can a bunch of hams form a "major" opposition against the power companies, IBM, Google etc?

Well, that's the problem. Maybe we need a "sierra club" or "greenpeace" to act as watchdogs on our RF spectrum...

I do believe that BPL is probably inevitable, though... so, sometime in the future, when most of the power grid is adapted for this, and all new AC-powered devices have BPL filters built-in, then the BPL radiation should be less.

Re:Hams

[op00to]

I like your wording -- THEIR airwaves. Yes, the HAMS have first dibs on much of the contested bandwidth (after the military, of course).

Many hams may be old and crusty, but they're not a group to give up easily.

Re:Hams

[hotdiggitydawg]

unless there is something that allows the cell towers to give priority to the police phones over my phone they police may be unable to communicate in an emergency.

In fact, that very point was recently demonstrated in London. From this article:

In the immediate aftermath, a statement from the U.K.'s largest network operator, Vodafone, said that an excessive number of calls had caused outages. The operator consequently set aside capacity for phone calls to emergency services.

"Following the major incident in London today, Vodafone London switches are at capacity (which is very rare), so we're having to go into 'access overload' procedures, which means freeing up a proportion of capacity across London to ensure the police and emergency services can communicate," the company said.

Re:Hams

[Chanc_Gorkon]

It's also more then just Amateur Radio and Police, Fire and Abulance radios that can be affected. You TV can be affected as well as AM/FM broadcast band. Has anyone here ever been living near a noisy (as in RF) powerline? Power companies are notorius for letting things get bad before the fix them. As long as the wire delivers power, they do not care if it spews RF all over the place. Notching the Ham band out will not be effective. The power company must not have heard of Harmonics.....sure the main signal is notched out but what about the harmonic of the signal? Harmonics is what is going to cause this to be a bigger then ham radio thing. Also, BPL is being promoted by the FCC to be able to bring broadband internet to rural America and that just ain't so. Rural users typically have older power delivery systems when compared to the urban folks and those are not always going to be able to carry BPL.

The BIG reason power companies want BPL is so that THEY can use it for reading your meter. They want to make your electric meter to be adressable and able to be read over the internet. They also want to have teh transformers and what not be able to report their status over it as well. BPL is about cutting some costs for electrical companies and it's just a bonus that they can add ISP to thier hat as well.

Re:Hams

[thc69]

querist wrote: If those power lines go down there will be no interference, but what if they are still up and there is a major emergency?

Er...if BPL is up in said emergency, and ham fails, then why not just use the BPL connection?

Also, consider that once BPL comes around, it probably won't be long before the same company sells digital phone over the same lines. Therefore, there will be internet and phone communications as long as BPL signal is up, and if lines or the signal are down, then ham can cut in.

Then, Gorkon wrote: The BIG reason power companies want BPL is so that THEY can use it for reading your meter. They want to make your electric meter to be adressable and able to be read over the internet. They also want to have teh transformers and what not be able to report their status over it as well. BPL is about cutting some costs for electrical companies and it's just a bonus that they can add ISP to thier hat as well.

Sounds great. I'd rather have them read my meter over the internet than have them snooping around in my yard. That's better privacy. Also, while meter readers will be out of a job, it will create IT jobs -- and IT labor demand benefits me, as well as many other slashdotters.

And if I could get some competition for cable internet, which is the ONLY broadband available in my rural location...that sounds like a win-win-win situation! Damn the ham, full speed ahead!

Re:Hams

[Verteiron]

t's a firestorm in the hams-on-Internet world, as some are extremely vocal (with very poor grammar) about keeping "the rif-raf" out with the hurdle of a morse code test for the HF bands. You'd think the sky was falling...

Know what this sounds like? The September that Never Ended.

Re:Hams

[harrkev]

You should support amateur radio.

We provide critical communication after a disaster. When four hurricanes hit my area a year ago, guess who handled communications between red cross shelters? Power was out... The phone lines were down... The cell towers were down... The wind was too fierce to send smoke signals. Amateur radio operators were just about the only method of communication.

And if BPL comes to town, there goes amateur radio. If the airwaves are blanketed with noise, nobody will invest in the expensive equipment, and of course they will not get any practice using it. And even IF the disaster wiped out the BPL noise in that area, a ham would have nobody to talk to, becuase the neighboring states would still have the noise.

So, let's assume that BPL does notch out amateur radio frequencies. Then, only some military channels, some shortwave channels, and some ship-to-shore radio frequencies are knocked out. No big deal, unless you happen to be on a ship or trying to listen to shortwave radio.

So, notching is not the answer. If you notch out ALL frequencies, then you can't transmit anything. And the more you notch out, the less bandwidth you have for sending data. And no matter WHERE your energies go, you will step on somebody's toes.

The frequencies below 30MHz (and sometimes all frequencies below 50MHz) have the wonderful quality of being able to travel entirely around the world. It is not uncommon for an amateur radio operator to talk to people thousands of miles away on at little at 5 watts. So, it is not hard to see that if BPL is introduced in every community in the USA, this will make the HF spectrum mostly unusable for THE ENTIRE WORLD. Actually, I am surprised that there is not some sort of treaty that would prevent this BPL nonsense.

Actually, I would love for the power companies to provide broadband. But they should have to do it over shielded cables, just like everybody else.

Re:Hams

[nosphalot]

Disaster strikes area A, and power goes out. Ham operator in area A can now transmit again.

Emergency supplies in area B, where power is still on, can not recive signal from area A ham because area B BPL is still interfering with the signal.

There are two points in a point to point link, if one point has too much noise to hear the other, there is no way to communicate. So basically Hams in disaster areas would only be able to communicate with other Hams in other disaster areas.

Apparently?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios.

And anyone else who uses any kind of radio. BPL still has massive radio interference problems, fullstop. Every trial so far has resulted in cancellation of services because the interference ruins too many other things.

Once again it'll be announced, it'll be trialled, it'll fail. I said it almost every other time someone else comes up with this too good to be true notion.

Re:Apparently?

[ziploclogic]

I listened to a topic on NPR this morning regarding these issues. Engineers have stated that radio interference has not been effectively prevented and that no trials have passed with favorable enough result to limit this type of interference. I'm curious what ideas are being kicked around to solve this problem.

Sounds like a good thing

[mattkinabrewmindspri]

because according to this report, this is sorely needed.

Lower Prices?

[J_Meller]

Interesting article. The power companies may be just the competition the marketplace needs to bring down some of the prices associated with having too few (inferior) competitors. Imagine the power company offering a vonage like service as well. They could probably rope a bunch of people on the bill convienence alone.

The Trinity

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, now instead of the Cable companies or Telephone companies having the stranglehold over my broadband connection, I got the Power companies too!

Its like the Trinity of Evils controlling all of the Broadband access.

10 years ago

[hachete]

This was mooted 14 years ago. I can't see any big changes. Bypassing the local transformers will still cost a shit-load of money.

Re:10 years ago

[eggstasy]

If by that you mean that getting broadband internet over powerlines is terribly difficult or expensive, I am happy to inform you that my own ISP here in Portugal has been offering powerline internet for ages at very attractive rates.
http://www.oni220.pt/oni220.htm

I'm told other european countries are also deploying it. The upstream is massive compared to similar ADSL offerings, instead of 8:1 it's a 2:1 ratio! Great for eMule :)

Powerline internet is a very attractive option in countries where the telephone lines are owned by a giant monopolist telecom.

Third option?!

[wbren]

"The CSMonitor is reporting that power companies may now be able to break into the internet provider market, giving consumers a third option, outside of telephone and cable companies."

My first and best option has always been satellite Internet service! I get blazing fast downloads at 20KBps and a low monthly bill of only $89.95. I don't need to use it on cloudy/rainy days anyway. Cable and DSL have always been a distant second and third. BPL might make it into the number four spot. Oh, and let's not forget about "Broadband over gas lines"... that's at least my fifth or sixth pick.

BPL is great idea

[el_womble]

Provided they take down the exisiting powerlines and replace them with high tension co-ax. It's not just Ham radios that this will irritate, its everyone. The FCC and its international counterparts have restrictions on EM waves not just because they interfere with communications, but because they interfere with everything from aeroplane and medical electronics to cell division.

Ham Operators Know

[SenFo]

"Apparently, a major source of opposition to BPL is operators of ham radios."

Of course. It's the ham operators that actually understand the potential for BPL to cause harmful RF interference. The rest of the world won't care until it affects them personally. Ignoring the advise of ham radio operators is like ignoring the advise of the bomb squad when there's a bomb in a subway. Ok, so it's not as drastic, but it's still quite silly.

We aren't whining.

[AltGrendel]

Most of the places that they want to install this are RUAL areas. You know, small towns that typically have small populations with little money for infrastructure, like in West Texas. That means above ground power lines.
Personally, I think that any town that buys this stuff is going to get stuck with a bunch of junk that they don't understand. Especally when the company they contract with goes out of business or gets bought out. This sounds like a great oppertunity for the fly-by-night folks.

Not just HAM radio...

[Knightsabre]

Yes, the Amateur Radio community is in opposition to BPL, due to the high degree of RFI (radio frequency interference) that BPL puts out. The problem that not as many people are talking about is that this will also affect many fire/rescue/police radio frequencies, which occupy the same radio spectrum as the BPL systems interfere with. This could potentially cause severe problems in emergency situations. So no, it's not just a bunch of us HAMs whining about BPL "ruining our hobby". We also interact with emergency personnel in emergency situations, severe weather, natural disasters, and yes, even terrorist attacks.

Already available in England

[wellard1981]

Southen-Electric are already providing broadband over powerlines in some locations here in the South of England, and have been doing so for some time. The broadband side of the company are known as BlinkBroadband.

Similar technology has been around

[Sierpinski]

This sounds strikingly similar to what X10 has been doing for a long time. Using a special outlet plug-in, you can control various fixtures (lights, fans, etc) via a remote control, as well as using a timer and motion-detectors. A friend of mine has been using X10 motion sensors in his house for a while now, so that his kitchen light comes on whenever anyone enters, and turns off 2-3 minutes afterward.

I'm not up to par on the technology used in the X10 devices, but it can't be all that dissimilar to sending any kind of digital "internet" signal over the power lines as well. Actually I'm surprised it took this long to surface (granted I haven't been scouring the net looking for this information either.)

powerline dead in germany for years

[dunkelfalke]

RWE, a very big electricity company in Germany used to sell powerline internet access in towns Essen and Muelheim an der Ruhr in july 2001. It only lasted until september 2002.

According to RWE it was shut down because some frequencies used by powerline were reserved for security services. The real reason was though that almost nobody used it - RWE had only some 200 paying customers - because internet access via ADSL was much cheaper and in both Muelheim (I used to live there back then) and Essen widely availiable.

Re:and before you all start whining...

[Iriel]

When it comes to underground wires, I can say this much from experience:

1. If they didn't install it underground to start, it's not going to get there any time soon (at least not in the US). I know there are probably exceptions to this rule, but there aren't that many in the vast majority of the country. If lines were put above your head, they're going to stay there.

2. When you have lines that are underground, they get damaged less often, which is a good thing. When they do, though, you can be without Utility['$foo'] for quite some time. I have a friend who lived in a brand new neighborhood with underground cable lines for TV and internet surrounded by people still working with the same old structures. And when something went wrong, it could take up to a month until they could watch TV or check their email in their own home.

So without a fast enough maitenence crew to service them, underground lines can be quite a hazard.

Old News

[Snags]

When behind-the-times media outlets cover old news, Slashdot shouldn't help them make it sound state-of-the-art. Even a cursory search of slashdot for BPL turns up:

• Hams Complain about Powerline Broadband - Aug 8, 2003
• FEMA Opposes Broadband Over Powerlines - Dec 15, 2003
• First Canadian High Speed Internet over Power Grid - Feb 5, 2004
• Broadband Over Power Lines: Coming Soon? - Feb 24, 2004
• Field Day 2004 - Jun 25, 2004 (specifically mentions "all the coverage BPL has gotten")
• Utility Cuts Short BPL Trial - Jun 30, 2004
• Broadband-over-Powerline Experiences? - Aug 24, 2004 (Ask Slashdot)
• FCC Approves BPL Despite Interference Concerns - Oct 15, 2004
• BPL: The Internet's Fool's Gold - May 17, 2005
• Motorola to Marry BPL and Wireless - Aug 13, 2005 - This is how PPL Broadband in Allentown, PA does BPL.

More than Web

[Nyhm]

"Web Access Over Power Lines" ... why, whith an Internet Protocol (IP) packet exchange capability this technology could provide any Internet service, not just HTTP Web access! (Please mod +1 Insightful)

Editorial note: Read with heavy sarcasm

We don't NEED it!

[starsoverbama]

Ever heard of WIMAX? BPL is an not needed, not cost effective, and a poorly engineered solution to the problem. And the hams are right...

FUCK Ham radios? How about FUCK corporate control?

[Ellis D. Tripp]

For someone who is supposedly advocating "egalitarianism-oriented" free speech, you seem awfully quick to hand a PUBLIC RESOURCE called the RF spectrum over to a tiny group of PRIVATE CORPORATIONS.

In case you haven't thought about it yet, there is nothing "free" or "egalitarian" about BPL. It will be under corporate control, accessible only to those who can/will pay for it. Contrast this with amateur radio, which is more or less the last vestige of non-corporate, decentralized, communications technology left in existence. Anyone who can pass a simple test can get on the air and communicate worldwide without any dependence on power companies, telecom giants, or huge media conglomerates.

Destroying public access to the radio spectrum via BPL is just one more move that will keep people dependent on corporations for EVERYTHING. Don't you think that individuals should have SOMEway to communicate and disseminate information that doesn't depend on big business?

AHidden Reason for BPL

[ec_hack]

From the article:

With BPL, utilities can quickly identify where outages have taken place, read meters remotely, and conduct preventive maintenance, such as replacing a transformer before it fails, by monitoring unusual "noise" on the system.

One of the real reasons for this is the remote meter reading capability. It eliminates the need for manual meter reading (or, for places with remote read systems, to have a van drive by getting the data.) But, it allows this camel's nose into the tent: the meter will be smart enough to allow time-of-day-based rates for electricity, like large commercial customers already pay. You'll pay more for usage during peak hours, less for off-peak use. Note: this is fair, as during peak times, electricity often is generated using higher-cost sources such as natural gas plants.

Distance Limits

[AB3A]

I can't imagine where you got that silly idea...

The fundamental technology is still distance limited. In fact, given natural and artificial interference factors from pre-existing spectrum users (not just ham radio operators, but everything on Shortwave) the distance limitations may be even more severe than those imposed by the telcos.

Hams aren't the only objecting group. They're merely the loudest. Most of the others, such as short wave broadcasters and trans-oceanic air traffic, Ship to shore Marine communications and the like don't have a constituency that the FCC will give much credence to.

BPL a HAMs prespective

[Nonillion]

As a licensed amateur radio operator I was beside myself when the FCC gave BPL deployment the green light. It proved to me that none of the commissioners have ANY technical competence at all, and that any decision right or wrong is made entirely for political reasons.

Current BPL technology is a kludge at best, it is the equivalent of duct tape and bailing wire. The interference that is created doesn't just effect the ham bands, it effects every service that is found between 1.8-80 MHz. The "interference mitigation" card is pure bull shit. For non hams how would you feel if I developed a Internet delivery method that disrupted your cell phone service? And every time you attempted to use your cell phone you disrupted your neighbors Internet access.

BPL is a bad idea, the laws of physics will never make it viable or economical, how many of you would get pissed off if I was constantly disrupting your Internet service for minutes or hours with my HF transceiver when I drive through town, I know I would.

It's NOT a noise floor problem...

[Svartalf]

A weak signal right on top of an antenna will swamp a powerful one at a distance if the power levels are equal at the reciever. I can cripple a Ham or CB setup by simply leaving a little 9v powered transmitter (in the case of CB, a walkie-talkie dead-keyed on the channel of most offense...) nearby. You won't be able to hear ANYTHING on the reciever wherever you do this to- it was a common fix for some idiot running a Linear being a problem on the CB band- they could get out, but they couldn't recieve over the little walkie-talkie on their fav channel. They'd think there was something wrong with their rig and quit doing it typically.

What the real big problem is that the BPL systems are largely interfering with a piece of spectrum that has really good propagation characteristics. It's used by everyone for emergency communications worldwide in the case of a disaster; not just Hams have a problem with this- FEMA and other orgs like them does too.

What pisses me off about all of this is that there's no real need for this BS- BPL can be done, done well, and it won't interfere with any critical services when it's done.

Corridor Systems has developed signal launchers and repeater systems to allow them to transform each line on a pole into a 10+ Mbit segment using 802.11 technology. This is accomplished by turning each of the lines on a power pole into a G-line waveguide (yes, you CAN do that sort of thing) that propagates the microwaves from an 802.11 system along the surface of the wires...