Sony and Toshiba Give Up On Unified DVD Format

HoTiCE_ is one of several to let us know, Reuters is reporting Sony and Toshiba have apparently given up efforts to develop a unified format for next-generation DVDs. The two companies had opened up negotiations but they fell through due to time constraints on new products from both groups.

Comments

My Prediction

[Gotung]

With the relatively low level of HDTVs out there, neither new format is going to catch on. People will just continue buying DVDs.

Re:My Prediction

[rogabean]

Yes, but *most* current dvd players will read any of those formats.

apples to oranges.

Re:My Prediction

[sik0fewl]

Exactly my point. What's to stop manufacturers from including support for both standards?

Re:My Prediction

[ImaLamer]

If VHS tapes are any indicator, people will be buy DVD's 8 years after either one of these formats hit the streets.

A lot of retailers have dropped VHS, but Wal-Mart still caries them and they are the biggest retailer around. I even know a well-off kid with HDTV and all of the latest computer "toys" who still buys VHS movies for some stupid reason. Besides price I see no difference.

Think about how long you (the collective you) were still buying tapes after CD's were released. Being that DVD players are being factory installed in some cars and are everywhere it will be a while before people get rid of DVD. Shit, DVD players are the fastest (or highest?) selling consumer device category of all time (For trivia purposes, I believe the original GameBoy still holds the record for highest selling electronic consumer product of all time).

Re:My Prediction

[rolfwind]

I think people will buy DVDs much longer than 8 years after the new format.

The questions consumers will ask is "What is the benefit over the old system and is it worth the $X00 to buy a new player for it?"

DVDs had significant benefits - but the kicker probably was in the end the CD-like ability. No more long stretches of minutes spent fastforwarding nor rewinding - you can go to the scene you want as fast as you can access the menus. That and the space savings.

But what is the obvious benefit of these new discs? Crippling DRM? High Definition when HDTVs are still the exception not the norm? Multiple movies on one disc for a lower price? (YEAH RIGHT!) What exactly?

My prediction is that DVDs will probably be uncontested king till 2015 due to entrenchment and that the cool new next generation devices are struggling to hard to pander to the movie studios with absurd DRM schemes.

My other prediction is that "next" medium will be delivered not by need for HD movies but by the demands of computer consumers needing a storage devices that saves more gigabytes than DVDs can possibly hope for.

This device will be free of or have relatively easy DRM and HD movies will eventually be delivered in this format because the other formats companies try to make will be recieved like betamax/laserdisc.

Movies will also start being offered officially over the internet way before then.

Re:My Prediction

[angle_slam]

Up until that point, no movies were even made with a resolution higher than DVD

Even today, almost all major motion pictures are shot on film. Film is higher resolution than DVD. They just need to reconvert the film into HD.

Re:My Prediction

[ColaMan]

I can't figure out why dual-layer writable DVD media have been SO slow to come about.

Dual layer (re)writeable media is a proper bitch to manufacture with (currently) a high failure rate, that's why. All the current manufacturers of DL media have struggled to get consistent batches.
This is why they still cost a packet. If they can iron out the kinks and go to full mass production they'd be nearly as cheap as normal DVDs.

Re:My Prediction

[NanoGator]

"but most of the post-production work done on film is done at a specific resolution (2k). so it woud be more than trivial to convert a lot of these movies into high def."

Um, 'hi def' isn't even 2k. It's 1920. Even if they produce a standard that's higher than that, they'll just upsample it. It'll be a little soft, but they won't re-do the effects or avoid it altogether.

Re:My Prediction

[dnoyeb]

I buy VHS because my son likes to bite the DVDs, so he keeps messing them up, but the tapes are much more durable.

Re:My Prediction

[Kjella]

What's to stop manufacturers from including support for both standards?

Considerable technical differences. DVD-R and DVD+R are almost identical, as you can see by their identical capacity. While both Blue-Ray and HD-DVD work with blue lasers, they use different platters, different focus and so on. Personally I wish they could agree on a media-independent content structure (i.e. you can make a CD/DVD/HD-DVD/Blue-Ray and the only difference was capacity), but no such luck.

Kjella

Good

[i_should_be_working]

I like competition. Maybe one of them won't be DRM'd up the ass.

Wishfull thinking, I know...

Bad news for us

[Quickdart]

Great now we get a second formar war on out hands. The first with DVD +/- R was bad enough, but it only appllied to people with burners. Having to entirely seperate formats to the next generations of DVD's is going to piss people off to no end.

Re:Bad news for us

[slavemowgli]

It happened before, though, with VHS vs. Beta, for example; and also, with the introduction of any new standard, there always is a period where content is available in both formats.

So... content *will* be available in both formats, and it will make little difference what kind of device customers buy. However, the format war will slow the overall adoption of *both* formats. DVDs and CDs will still be around for a long while to come, and I wouldn't be surprised if, eventually, there'll be devices that simply handle both formats and thus avoid the incompatibility issues altogether (just like there's combined CD/DVD±R/W/RW readers/writers now, for example).

That's all assuming that there'll be no major DRM goof-ups, of course. If either format makes it too difficult for people to access their legitimately-bought content, then it'll lose out big time, and the manufacturers know this. Considering that there's also pressure from the other side (the "content industry") to include as much DRM as possible, though, it's gonna be interesting to see how things turn out.

ps3

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares, the ps3 all but makes it a moot argument. The adoption rate of that particular player makes HD-DVD a foregone conclusion.

Re:ps3

[Eric Smith]

how is sony going to cram a bluray player, ps3 multi core cell processor, a video card similar to a geforce 7800, usb, ieee, hard drive, etc for it's purported 5-600$ or so price tag.

Of the items you list, only the hard drive is expensive. Are you sure there's going to he a hard drive in the standard unit (as opposed to an option)?

In any case, even with a hard drive, the BOM cost should easily be under $500. If they are trying to compete aggressively with Microsoft, they'll set the wholesale price near or even below the manufacturing cost, and plan to make their money on game sales and licensing.

That business model is nothing new to the game console industry; in fact, it's one of the big reasons that they try to lock up the console to prevent unauthorized (i.e., unlicensed) games from being developed and sold by other parties.

Just flip a coin!

[ThatGeek]

I often feel that it's better to have a mediocre standard than no standard at all. No one is going to buy until one format is dominant...

If they had just done some kind of binding arbitration or even picked one format randomly, they'd be rolling in dough. Consumers would be "forced" to upgrade (yet again) to a new standard format.

Instead, no one upgrades, and the companies miss out on potential profit.

Re:Just flip a coin!

[brunes69]

You see, even in this case, when it comes to not taking the standard (like in the DVD case), us consumers will have to pay for drives which reads both kinds of disks. Which means we have to fork out more money for those drives, and those companies manufacturing those drives lose profits, which make them raise prices even more.

Yeah, because I know my DVD burner I just bought that can burn DVD+-RW/DVD+-R/DVD-RAM/CD-RW (that's 6 formats BTW, not just two) was way over priced.

I mean 40 dollars??? HELL it cost at least as much as an evenings dinner. How can anyone expect to pay that???

</sarcasm>

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Dual format?

[Anonymous Coward]

So I'm hoping someone will have the bright idea of making a "dual format" player, much like the DVD-R/DVD+R burners. Of course, we never had a dual format VCR (beta/vhs)...but then, at least the Blu-ray and HD DVD's will be the same physical size.

Re:Dual format?

[NekoXP]

Same laser wavelength too.

I wonder actually what is so different between the two formats.. the way it's
encoded on the disk, right? Isn't this a SOFTWARE issue (drive firmware) more
than anything, or is there really some strangeness involved that I am missing.

Maybe the dual-layer (and triple-layer) technologies use incompatible ways of
focussing the laser; but isn't that also down to software and the use of another
lens (like CDRW/DVD drives have already..)

I dunno, really.. I don't have access to the specs. Who does? Who can make a
really informed statement that dual-format drives will be possible?

The trouble then is which format will the industry pick?

I would say HD-DVD - because it's inherent cheapness (same disc layout as DVD,
same manufacturing facilities and little changes to machinery will make it as cheap
if not cheaper than DVD). Blu-Ray requires people to retool.

Blu-Ray may end up being the custom format that runs the Playstation 3, like UMD
is the custom format that runs the PSP, Matsushita's discs were the custom format that ran the Gamecube, and GD-ROM was the custom format that ran the Dreamcast.

Besides Sony releasing their own movies in Blu-Ray format for the PS3 and a clutch of Sony & Samsung players, why would any cheap-ass (and we're all cheapasses at heart) bother with it? Remember in the VHS/Betamax war, Sony lost at the end of the day. They are not infallible and we shouldn't just think that because they have the Playstation that they will not lose again.

Neko

Re:Dual format?

[skreeech]

Lots of people would prefer a PS3 over a next gen DVDplayer. The cheapass's not wanting to buy another dvd player don't matter. The cheapasses won't buy any dvd player because they'll be using their ps3.

Same as SACD/DVD-Audio

[hashts]

This issue is strinkingly similar to the Hi-Def Audio industry where you have two competing standards which are incompatible with each other.

Everyone loses, esp. the consumers who backed either format. For everyone else, CD's are still good enough and market penetration for either of the new audio standards is VERY low. Same exact thing will happen here, DVD will be good enough for just about everyone, and only the Videophiles will be jumping on HD-DVD or Blu-ray.

How sad when companies fail to understand history will repeat itself with the HD video market.

Re:Same as SACD/DVD-Audio

[hattig]

You know what irks me?

The fact that even $50 DVD players have digital 5.1 audio out, yet can't play a bloody DVD Audio disc. It's only a matter of piping the bloody digital data from the disc to the outputs.

Why? I bet it is licensing. DVD Audio would have been the outright winner by now if it had been included in standard DVD players. But no, I'm sure the audio market got all scared and said 'No' to that, so they could continue to sell their expensive dedicated players. Sadly, because of the format war, like someone else pointed out above, 90% of the market disappeared, so they made less money in the end. I also expect there is some DRM reason, if the audio was available in DRM-removed format on a 5.1 digital output, then it can easily be stolen!

Maybe Sony or Toshiba should look at that and think how bad this is for their business. But no, they won't, it doesn't apply to them, they're too big for that, they're too proud to admit it. I'm hoping that because it happened once already, it will happen again. DVDs are good enough, except for the minor percentage of people that have 60"+ HDTVs that will notice the encoding blockiness.

In the meantime, my local superstore is selling new DVDs from 97p each. Sure, the 97p DVDs aren't blockbuster films, but you can't go wrong with over an hour of classic cartoons and so on for that price.

Re:Well that certainly makes the decision easier.

[Mindwarp]

I pick..... neither!

I should probably clarify that statement before I get branded as a troll: I will pick whichever format will not automatically assume that I'm a criminal and therefore prevent me from watching a true HD picture on my 3 year old $3500 HD television set which, of course, does not have an HDMI interface.

Hence the original comment.

George Lucas announcement

[Fastball]

Sales of his Star Wars saga will be put on sale in both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD formats. Han will shoot first on one format while Greedo is quicker to the draw on the other. No word on which format will have it right, i.e. Han shooting first.

Re:One word:

[XFilesFMDS1013]

Right, because a unified standard upon which every company could stand, and one which would allow a customer to buy a DVD and have it play in whatever DVD player they had, is a bad thing.

Re:It's Like a Presidential Election...

[MBCook]

Ah. But unlike a Presidential election (where you must choose a new president), we DO have a 3rd choice: DVD.

Consumers can simply keep buying DVDs and ignore the new formats, thus sending a no-confidence vote. Now we have some time, because most people can't watch HD-DVDs or Blu-Ray discs because of their analog TVs. The picture looks exactly like that of a DVD (or maybe a Superbit DVD). So most people have no reason to buy one of those formats yet. This is the time to get the message out there about how crippled they are (remind people about the no fast-forwarding on DVDs as an example, no one likes that and EVERYONE has seen it).

One the formats start to get real sales from normal people, the battle will be lost (except through the courts, which will probably be a no starter thanks to congress's "Lifetime + 30,000 years" copyright policy).

For all the geek interest we have in the new formats, as a DVD replacement they are as significant as DVDs were in 1997/8: none.

DRM will kill them

[ad0gg]

I'm an so called early adopter, had dvd player before they became common, had hdtv before the stations even started broadcasting. There's no way, i'm throwing out a $3000 tv to be able to watch hi def video disks. Thats absurb. Right now I can watch all my hdtv movies either on HD HBO or HD OnDemand all going threw component outs on my cable reciever. Thats good enough for me. I higly doubt my cable company is going to require HDMI or HDCP DVI anytime soon.

Re:Whatever

[Tackhead]

> I bet that within two years we'll have drives that can read/write both HD-DVD and Blu-ray.

And what are you going to display them on?

You'll have one dual-format HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player. It'll have two outputs. One will pipe HDMI video to your Toshiba HDTV. The other will pipe HDMI video to your Sony HDTV.

Why the second HDTV? Well, how else did you think you were going to watch any movies made by Sony Pictures? :)

And why does Sony Pictures have the right to make sure that Sony's movies are only released on Sony-formatted DVDs that will decode correctly only on Sony HDMI screens? Well, they asked for the Betamax precedent to be overtu~`~~~
Petard-hoisting error -- industry dumped

Obligatory Simpsons quote

[vjzuylen]

Kang: "Go ahead, throw your vote away! Muahahahahah!"

Giant Screwup

[the eric conspiracy]

With sales of HDTV's skyrocketing ( > 25% of all new TVs) the opportunity for HD fromat DVD is knocking.

But what did we get? A mess. Many consumers will take one look at this and throw up their hands. The smarter consumers will even take it a step further and back off from buying regular format DVDs because they would rather wait for that new title in the higher definition format.

This is a total foot-shot.

I've finally decided on a format.

[AbRASiON]

I hate wars like this blu-ray vs HD-DVD, I hate them a LOT.

While both have their pros and cons, ultimately we the consumer are going to be the ones shafted until they get their shit together. (I don't even need to go into why we'll be shafted if there's 2 formats, readers of this comment will know already)

Problem is, even when they DO get their shit together and decide on a single format, we will STILL get shafted!

If it's not DRM for the files on the disc itself, it's these new rumours of no component HD support, since it can't effectively enforce DRM.
In other words go and replace your "old" HDTV which is missing those plugs. (sorry guys buy my Toshiba 36" is 6 months old and I'm not upgrading)
While you're at it, go replace that component receiver too, it doesn't have HDMI or DVI inputs....

The manufactuers also seem to be thinking the uptake on blu-ray and HD-DVD is going to be quick, they are very very wrong.
DVD took off well because it did SO MANY things better than VHS - on a huge huge level.
The disc is (theoretically) stronger.
You can fast fwd through 60 minutes instantly - no need to re-wind.
They put cute little menu's and extra's on the disc.
You can drop a second audio or third or fourth audio channel - giving you commentary or language options (easier for manufacturers convienience then too)
Quality improvements in audio and video.

Overall DVD, besides the convienience of easy recording is better than VHS in many many ways.

The new HD formats however, they are not so simple, these suckers might have a better picture but the disc size / shape convienience is the same, the fast forward / rewind is the same, menu's will likely be similar or the same.
Ultimately all they will do is either offer MORE content or better quality, which isn't a bad thing but it's no gargantuan leap like DVD to VHS

So I've thought a lot about this and I've come to the decision of being a bit of a neathanderal and sticking with the "old" format so I'm sticking with DVD.

DVD still offers a picture we've all been completely happy with for the past what 5? 8 years and a high definition, fine pitch set isn't going to do bad things for your DVD's.

DVD still offers DDigital audio and DTS audio, both of which are quite damn good with decent quality speakers and HT gear.

DVD is easily backed up, my neighbours have kids and trust me those disney dvd's DO get used a heck of a lot, sure you should teach your kids to look after stuff but saving your ass 20 or 30$ on a disney DVD from scratches = smart (and fair use as far as I'm concerned)

DVD is fairly easy to author your own discs.

DVD is small enough to backup a couple of movies on the laptop for that holiday, so you don't lose the discs AND save battery power only having the HDD working while playing them

Infact the list goes on and on, but ultimately - I'm pretty darn happy with the quality of my movies on my TV from DVD's - and the majority of the ones I watch are DVD-shrunk'd so to speak, let alone originals making use of the full 8.5gb for better quality.
Finally, although it might be just a placebo effect but running my DVD's through my modified Xbox in 1280x720 it kind of upsamples them and makes the old content look even better.

Why on earth would I buy in to this DRM rubbish - I look forward to it sinking, I hope Sony, MS, Toshiba and the whole damn industry end up learning an expensive lesson.

This article will probably enlighten you

[rbarreira]

Read this fine article. It has six sections, I enjoyed it a lot. Well written, unbiased, and to the point.

if your working tv...

[E8086]

"if your working television sits on top of your non-working television you might be a redneck" -Jeff Foxworthy

Now picture this: "if your working HD-DVD player sits on top of your other working, but less used, Blue-Ray DVD player which sits on top of your other working standard DVD player you might be a pissed off consumer."

Having too many formats is just going to result in unhappy consumers and I'm going to get calls from the people who know I make things work because they bought a HD-DVD player but a movie on a BlueRay disk and BestBuy won't take it back because it's opened and since it's a DVD it can only be exchanged to exactly the same thing, not a different disk format.

True nature of this fight. . .

[doctor_no]

Out of all the coverage that has gone on about the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray battle something that has been seriously overlooked is the what this fight is really about. Toshiba and Time Warner makes an incredible amount of money from DVD 6C and other Toshiba/Sanyo/Warner ownened patents, they get a kick back from every DVD and DVD player that hits the market becaue they are the main beneficiaries of the 6C patents. And they are trying to keep these patents in place for the next-generation of high-definition media.

Blu-ray is an effort to get around the 6C patents and Toshiba owned patents. When Sony and co. approached Toshiba/NEC/Warner in forming a unified format, one of the conditions that was put in place was to keep the 6C patents in place, and merely keep the software aspect of Blu-ray. This of course is why an agreement cannot be reached. Neither side has any reverance for the consumer.

Re:True nature of this fight. . .

[adam31]

It's always struck me as very odd how the teams line up in this format war. Matsushita, Toshiba and IBM are all in 6C, yet Matsushita swapped teams and lined up with Sony on Blu-Ray. IBM jumped on with Sony for the PS3. Toshiba, of course, backs HD-DVD but they are also partnered with Sony to do production for the Cell processors going into the PS3-- whose support of BluRay is arguably HD-DVD's greatest threat!

Really, I just don't get it. Is everyone (except Sony) playing both sides of the fence?

The winner will be...

[jocknerd]

whichever one gets the support of the Porn industry.

No problem

[QMO]

"Makes one almost wish for the days when regular CD-roms could hold several times the magnitude than the hard drives of the computers they resided in. Or maybe wish to have that ratio back:)"

Trade me your very large hard drive for my 2.5 GB drive, backup on DVD, and there you have it.

(I have to warn you that my drive is 5.25" quarter-height.)