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Google Lawsuit Exposes Microsoft Offshoring Deal
2old2rockNroll writes "In more news from Microsoft's Google lawsuit, it appears that Ballmer's 2003 trip to China may have had as much to do with Microsoft moving jobs as selling software. It seems that the Chinese are not pleased with the number of jobs being moved to China, and one of Lee's duties was to identify jobs for export. Although hiring in Redmond has slowed, a Microsoft spokesperson admits they are "growing their work force" in China. Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
"Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
How many times do people need to be reminded? Investing in MS is risking having your own money used against you in the marketplace.
why is this significant again? Companies offshore all the time. Hell, some companies move their headquarters to different continents.
Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
That's called "marketing". Microsoft cries shortage, geeks raise their hands like an eager student with an answer in class. I sure as hell would take a job from Microsoft if given the opprotunity. I'd surely go to hell for it as well, but fact is... Microsoft is on top, and will be for a long time. With top-rung knowledge and experience, one can definitely sprint to retirement well before 99% of the people that (s)he graduated with from secondary school.
Other thing is, China has a lot of people. And a lot of smart people. Survey says: Cheap labour and lots of it.
OMG! A global company is hiring people globaly!
People really, really need to put this into perspective.
Time for another round of "oh no, all our jobs are going to [insert country here]". Oh gebus. Spare me How many years of offshoring scaremongering do I have to put up with? I remember it from the 80s.
*sigh*
Microsoft outsourcing 1000 jobs to China equates to about 1.75% of its work force. (57,000)
In addition, it's very probable that most of those jobs are for non-critical, non-core projects. This frees up the local developers to work on more important projects.
Could Microsoft hire more local workers to fill these positions? Sure... but it's hardly news that Microsoft outsources 1.75% of its workforce.
And just a day or two ago, someone on Slashdot was telling me all about how at least Microsoft has never cut an American job for one overseas. Nyah nyah! :P
So when all the jobs are outsourced and everyone around the world is making $8/hr in the new Global Economy, who is going to be able to afford $200 for an operating system? Or $500 for Office? Or $1500 for Adobe?
Through his foundation bill has been funding us schools. Is it his fault that the whole damn country hates anyone capable of critical thinking, as well as anyone who uses words longer than 4 letters.
Basically, with corporate budgets (and yes, even at microsoft's size is fixed) Windows is a zero-sum game - Linux jobs are not a zero-sum game because the more people that contribute the more my work can build on them.
This is news?
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
Do they owe the U.S. anything more than corporate taxes?
They don't have any obligations beyond complying with the contracts they enter into, the laws in the countries where they operate, and their fiduciary responsibilty to their shareholders.
I say yes, they do.
Guess again, sport. Wishing doesn't make it so.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
So Windows XP was put together by the best brains that money could buy
Well, this is true in a sense, but money can't buy the best brains.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Big difference - with Linux, the international help *helps* me with my job - with Microsoft the international help *competes* with me for my job.
... but isn't it this very slashdot crowd that cries "competition is a good thing!" Having to compete for your job means you have to do better at it, do it for less, do it faster, etc. all in an effort to add value to the service you are paid for. If there is no competition, many will simply settle for stagnation and small to no income raises. On the other hand when competition exists, the smart ones will step it up a notch and in the long run be better off for it due to their own maintenance/increase in standard of living through pay/benefits, but also because when a company's employees produce more with less there tend to be increased profits... which in turn can be used to bolster the company as well as reward those that help to make it happen.
Complaining about outsourcing and how it will steal our jobs isn't going to change the fact that right now the people overseas are likely doing their job cheaper, faster, and in many cases better than the 'equivalent' US worker. Instead, get off your ass, find opportunities to make yourself shine, and add value to your company in ways that distinguish you from your overseas counterparts... other than the tremendously more expensive cost for service that is.
You're right and you could go further and say that supporting any not-for-profit software development is actively trying to take away jobs from the people who make their living at it. What seems to upset people here is the thought that Microsoft (or whoever) is taking one paying job and moving it to another country just to save money. If OTOH they just canned the jobs outright people would be dancing in the streets saying it was the beginning of the end for M$ (or whoever) and didn't they deserve it. It would suck to have your job taken away and moved to China or India but it probably sucks more to be Chinese or Indian and not have the opportunity to better yourself.
It would suck to have your job taken away and moved to China or India but it probably sucks more to be Chinese or Indian and not have the opportunity to better yourself.
The Chinese and Indians are free to open all the companies they want to employ their own people. They don't need American companies coming there to have jobs. To insinuate that Chinese and Indian people are incapable of starting their own companies, instead of merely working at the whim of Americans, seems extremely insulting to me. India has many successful native companies, such as Tata and Wipro, and China has many other successful native companies like Lenovo (which just bought out IBM's PC business).
... but isn't it this very slashdot crowd that cries "competition is a good thing!"
Besides promulgating the "all of Slashdot speaks with one voice" fallacy, you are confusing competition for goods and services with competition for jobs.
I think it's backwards. Given the GNU movement (the movement, the license, the goal of an OS) Linux was inevitable. It was a simple matter of (most likely, a very short) time.
Without the GNU movement, nothing would have happened. Linux (the kernel) was an inevitable an obvious goal after that. Stallman simply does not get the credit he deserves, and Linus is given credit for a movement, license, ideology and an OS where credit for a kernel is due.
Complaining about outsourcing and how it will steal our jobs isn't going to change the fact that right now the people overseas are likely doing their job cheaper, faster, and in many cases better than the 'equivalent' US worker. Instead, get off your ass, find opportunities...
Actually having worked with some of those overseas people I can tell you they are not doing the job cheaper, faster, or better. What they usually do is make the job take three times as long as it should, consistently foul up the most simple tasks, and hop jobs to a better "overseas" position in the middle of the project. But thats not the point I want to make.
While the US is collectively sitting on its "ass" as you say, the government has been shipping money and expertise overseas at an unreal rate. Consider when you run enormous trade defecits, increase the unemployment level of your "skilled" workers, and in the process ship all your technical expertise over to a country which in the near future will likely be your competitor rather than your cheap slave labor, it paints a very bad long term picture. In the end, you will end up being the 3rd world country, while your technically skilled overseas counterparts will be reaping the profits of your giveaways.
On top of that, while your sitting here in the US surrounded by hoards of unemployed workers who sat on their collective ass during the whole thing, those workers are no longer contributing to the tax base, in fact they are all on welfare - so who exactly is going to be paying for the roads your driving on, and the schools your kids go to? The small fraction of elite workers left here who still have jobs certainly aren't going to support it all.
Isn't it interesting that we are not exporting our CEO jobs overseas? After all, by your logic those overseas CEOs should be doing the job cheaper, faster, and better, right? Or do you mean only lowly semi-skilled overseas workers do things cheaper, faster, and better?
In any event, the US government needs to be more proactive in protecting its interests in this area. Companies run on the work done by their entire lower rank - the grunt jobs. And I would bet most such jobs have some amount of technical expertise, and more importantly experience. For many jobs if you gave me a choice of choosing someone with a PhD and little experience, versus someone with 20years experience I would tend to choose the experienced one rather than the PhD. But at the rate we are exporting our technical expertise we won't have anyone left here with long term experience (the ones with the most will retire, and no one will replace them).
When people from all over the world can write for Linux, it's a good thing.
When people from all over the world can write for Microsoft, it's a bad thing, because Americans should get all the jobs?
I don't follow. What's so special about Americans that they should get all the jobs? Doesn't sound like that's a very healthy situation.
What would be the repsonse if jobs were being outsourced to Britain or Australia?
The best of all is - the way he put it, it looks like while MS exports jobs, Google hires this PhD guy Lee to open a fucking kindergarten or something.
Or maybe you have a reading comprehension problem. Whatever Lee is doing for Google has nothing to do with the blurb or what Microsoft has been claiming. They have publicly bemoaned the number of CS gradutes and have been lobbying the feds to increase the H-1B cap, while in fact they aren't interested in hiring locally.
From this, we can see that Microsoft had an unbelievable 50% increase in income during the last year while headcount increased by less than 3,000. Since we know that MS is "growing the work force" in China by over 1,000 per year and an unknown but most likely similar number in India (and smaller numbers for other countries), that leaves little, nothing, or negative job growth for the US. It is also interesting that there is a quid pro quo with the Chinese based on jobs, which was certainly not public information. You can return to your astroturfing now, and that should be "an idiot".
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/brows e_thread/thread/4d7d5feddc66f7a/e88f4c2a88cddc0c?q =%22time+to+retire+C%2B%2B%22&
Funny thing is how few people, then or now, recognize that the author is intentionally crafting the misinformation and new-CS-student attitude. Thanks to the person in this present-day thread for pointing me to Egg Troll's writings! Can anonymous coward have an ego?
Not trashing Asian IT workers, since they often outproduce Australians in Australia and are generally no more incompetent, but I really don't think you grok the focus of "important" in the eyes of Microsoft's management.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing