Google Lawsuit Exposes Microsoft Offshoring Deal

SM's 'duh' moment of the week... by djupedal · 2005-09-04 18:34 · Score: 5, Insightful

"Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"

How many times do people need to be reminded? Investing in MS is risking having your own money used against you in the marketplace.

Re:SM's 'duh' moment of the week... by djupedal · 2005-09-04 21:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

Yes, it's very obvious (as are the lurking ms apologists).

Anyone that holds MS stock is helping the practice of off-shoring as well.

Good news is, the Chinese aren't fooled by the likes of MS and Wal-Mart, so we can all rest easy knowing at least those two predators are being kept out of the hen-house.
Re:SM's 'duh' moment of the week... by Basehart · 2005-09-05 06:38 · Score: 3, Funny

"IAAFMSE (I am a former Microsoft Employee)"

HTFTNA. IBSTUTIFWIRTAFME. (Hey, thanks for the new acronym. I'll be sure to use that in future whenever I'm referring to a former microsoft employee).
Re:SM's 'duh' moment of the week... by CodeBuster · 2005-09-05 10:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

In the medium term there will be a re-alignment of the currencies and the cost benefits to outsourcing will diminish.

This would be true if China was a free market democracy, but they are not, they are a free market communism. The Chinese people, with the exception of the elites, are the ones who are really getting screwed by the fixed currency policies, but there is nothing that they can do about it because China is not a free society and the government kills or imprisons anyone who complains or speaks out. I remember reading in a recent story that a sign on a factory wall in China read something to the effect of, "Work hard today or else you will have to work hard tomorrow to find a new job," which implies, none to subtly, that if you complain about the wages or don't want to work 16 hours per day then you get lost because they have 100 more peasants in the countryside who they can bus in to take your place for $2 per day. The Chinese workers are slaves in everything but name because they have no power to effect any changes in national policy and the policy of China right now is to manipulate their currency to keep their export markets growing while using the surpluses to outbid with large premiums when buying foreign oil assets. There is no economic justification for the takeover bids that the Chinese oil companies are making...no rational company would pay a 20% premium on assets in a takeover bid...UNLESS they were backed with government money to secure strategic assets for the military which is exactly what is happening in China. The Chinese are gearing up for a hostile takeover of Taiwan and possibly a war with the US if we attempt to intervene, as we are obligated to by our treaties with Taiwan. The point is that a readjustment cannot occur as long as the totalitarian government in China continues to enslave their people to distort the market for their own strategic, geopolitical, and military purposes.

Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... by BluRBD!E · 2005-09-04 18:35 · Score: 5, Insightful

why is this significant again? Companies offshore all the time. Hell, some companies move their headquarters to different continents.

Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... by blowdart · 2005-09-04 19:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

Well I'm sure a lot of CS degree holders in here would like to be able to get work in the US. Not to have to move to China or India to get a tech job.
I don't know about the US because I'm in the UK but having a degree doesn't mean much these days. You're sold it as proof you can perform, but frankly that's a load of toss for most degrees. You come out with some academic idea of how things should be done without any real world experience. When hiring I've never looked at anyone's qualifications, but at their experience. Even when looking to take on junior roles, those suitable for people just out of college I've asked them what they've done outside of their school work, looked for web sites they've "developed", or code they've written. I've yet to see a degree that will instil anything I've wanted from a candidate other than a rudimentary idea of OO design and some half assed attempt at lifecycle methodologies.
University degrees do not entitle you to a job and if you're one of the people that treat them as such I suggest you get a large grip on reality. No-one owes you anything.
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... by malkavian · 2005-09-04 21:12 · Score: 5, Insightful

Take a long hard look at what kind of degree to what kind of role.
I've done a lot of hiring work in the past, and will tell you straight that a degree gives you a huge level of credibility over someone who claims "x years of experience".
The work market as is, those claims are almost invariably exaggerated.
Which leaves either a work portfolio (which means you need someone with both time and qualification to audit it, and ensure it's actually their own work), or some form of accredited certification that they are capable.
Now, I've done a degree (two actually), AND got commercial certification.
From the two of those, I'll have to say that the commercial offering will let you push the buttons with a minimal knowledge of what is really happening behind the scenes. It leaves the person, if they're relying on this as their main source of info, woefully unprepared for the real world where things exist in heterogenous enviornments, and problems actually occur.
Which leaves a University degree.
Yes, it says that the person knows a lot in theory, but fresh out of Uni, they have little practical application of it yet.
However, what is says is they understand WHY things work in their discipline, and can work it out with a book, and a very good grounding in first principles.
In 95%+ of cases, they rapidly outstrip the 'experience only' people across a broad spectrum of understanding. Degrees train you how to learn, not spoon feed you a few lines that you quote back by rote.
Is a degree a 'guarantee of a job'? Not at all these days. Will it give you a head and shoulders leap over someone with only experience? Absolutely.
If someone working for me couldn't justify why they'd brought someone on board with experience only, over someone with experience plus degree, I'd want a very good reason as to why. Otherwise they'd find their ability to make any decision of responsibility removed sharpish.
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... by blowdart · 2005-09-04 21:45 · Score: 2, Insightful

when non technical HR lackies get involved
Unless you're getting HR write the specs for the person you need it shouldn't be any different. You're the one that sets the requirements, if HR are changing them I suggest a clue stick is in order.
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... by bladernr · 2005-09-04 23:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

I've done a lot of hiring work in the past, and will tell you straight that a degree gives you a huge level of credibility over someone who claims "x years of experience".
Well I do a lot of hiring now, and manage a large technical organization, and I say it depends on the field. In hiring engineers (real ones... not "software" :), a degree really, really matters. No one is going to have some guy without a degree design a bridge or a building.
I think computer software is different because of how fast the technology has been moving. Not only is experience better than a degree (with both being ideal), but people with a degree don't need it in CS. In fact, I prefer people with math degrees who learned languages "on the job." I've also had very good luck with mechanical engineers (I think it's the same thought process in mechanical as in software... ie, chain reactions).
If you look at the past, you'll see it's the same in all professions. When a field of study is new, experience is far more important than formal education, since the formal education rarely keeps up with a fast moving technology (in University, I learned assembler on a mainframe that hadn't been manufactured in over a decade).
As the pace of change in a given technology slows down, as it always does, formal education catches up, and then you will see much more entry-level quality out of those who have a CS degree than either those who don't have a degree or have it in a different field.

--
Sarcasm and hyperbole are the final refuges for weak minds
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... by 2old2rockNroll · 2005-09-05 02:50 · Score: 3, Informative

why is this significant again? Companies offshore all the time. Hell, some companies move their headquarters to different continents.

Perhaps it's significant because Microsoft is whining about declining CS enrollment and lobbying the government for an increase in the H-1B cap, when they really aren't doing much local hiring. It is significant because what they say for publication is a lie, and their real interest is solely in cheaper labor. It also seems significant that they are apparently buying Chinese cooperation in anti-piracy efforts with jobs that currently belong to American workers. It gives new meaning to the term human capital.
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... by malkavian · 2005-09-05 03:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

Wish I could use the mod points I've got to give you a raise in there.
A lot of valid points coming to light.

The best team I've worked in, way back when was multidisciplinary. A PhD mathematician (who could take sections of the implementations I'd made and fine tune them to a level that left me boggling), myself (Real Time Systems Bsc), a couple of experience bods who'd worked their way up over time, and the boss who was an Elecronic Engineer (Msc).

I ended up doing the software engineering (as we didn't need formal spec) and systems architecture (along with a fair bit of coding afterwards), the mathematician took areas where the algorithms were inefficient, and optimised them away.. The experience coders did a good job of the coding..
And the boss knew exactly what management processes to use for engineering a project (from extensive experience).

A lot of the problems with software today are simply caused because people don't engineer them.
Commerce is trying to make a fast buck, and, in the bridge analogy, is saying "We can put up a couple of ropes and tie them to a tree. What do you need a proper footbridge over the road for?".

So, a lot of software is built like the ropes over the road. It's cheap, shoddy, but does the job, with the odd few bits falling off and causing no end of consternation.

I'm behind you all the way on saying that a mathematician or an engineer (my first degree was in Chemical Engineering by the way) can apply the same processes as a CS grad, and will (in the longer term, which is where you should always be aiming anyway) be just as good.
I was pointing out that the properly educated CS grad will from the word go have a better instinctive grasp of what to do as concerns the tools and methods of engineering as applied to software.

First choice for me on software hires is Computer related degree plus good experience and track record. Very closely followed by Engineering/Math/Philosophy/Science degrees with the same level of experience and track record.
Then comes long track record and extensive experience with no degree, followed by Computing related degree with no/little experience, then the science/engineering degrees with little or no experience.
For someone with a small track record, and no degree, I'd not really go for that. They may be good. They may be highly skilled.
But if they're up against someone who's proved they have a high ability to learn, and has a good knowledge of a wide spectrum of theories in the field that they can bring to bear, they're just not going to get the job.

For much the same reason, I suspect, that you may find someone who knows how to build a bridge really really well.. You're just not going to hire him unless he's done that degree..

Really, I think it all boils down to me wanting to see that degree to prove someone's serious. I just have a slight preference for CS over the other disciplines (having done both, and seeing how my perspectives were altered slightly by doing the computing degree).
Re:Apart from bad mouthing Microsoft... by titzandkunt · 2005-09-05 06:31 · Score: 2, Insightful
[Re: Hiring of non-CS graduates into software engineering roles]

"...I've also had very good luck with mechanical engineers (I think it's the same thought process in mechanical as in software... ie, chain reactions)...

I agree (Having a 14 year software career on the back of a BEng in mechanical engineering).

Although EE is the "classic" non-CS precursor to a software engineering role, Mech Eng does have the following going for it:
1. Analytical.
2. Maths-heavy.
3. Fact-based (cf. The much-derided Media Studies or any subjective field).
4. A large computing component (Maple, FEA et al).
5. A constant refrain by the profs that once graduated, you're just about qualified to start learning the really useful stuff!
T&K.
--
Political language ... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable...

Nothing new for companies as large as MS by dauthur · 2005-09-04 18:37 · Score: 5, Insightful

Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"

That's called "marketing". Microsoft cries shortage, geeks raise their hands like an eager student with an answer in class. I sure as hell would take a job from Microsoft if given the opprotunity. I'd surely go to hell for it as well, but fact is... Microsoft is on top, and will be for a long time. With top-rung knowledge and experience, one can definitely sprint to retirement well before 99% of the people that (s)he graduated with from secondary school.

Other thing is, China has a lot of people. And a lot of smart people. Survey says: Cheap labour and lots of it.

Re:Nothing new for companies as large as MS by Raul654 · 2005-09-04 19:27 · Score: 4, Insightful

"Microsoft is on top, and will be for a long time."

I find this statement very questionable. Microsoft is big, rich, and entrenched. Those are pretty much their only virtues. On the other hand, when was the last time you heard anyone talking about a Microsoft product in anything but a lament? When was the last time you heard people eagerly talking about Microsoft's next move, like you hear so often with Google nowadays. Microsoft doesn't get the pick of the talent anymore, either. Microsoft only has two successful products - Windows and Office. Quite frankly, I think Microsoft is at the beginning of the same kind of decline that the industry has seen so often from the former giants like DEC and HP and IBM (before IBM re-invented itself)

--

To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
Re:Nothing new for companies as large as MS by Grishnakh · 2005-09-04 19:46 · Score: 5, Insightful

I find this statement very questionable. Microsoft is big, rich, and entrenched.

Not only that, but big and rich doesn't mean you'll stay on top for a long time, at least not when you're a publicly-traded company.

Back in 1984 or so, IBM was the big player in the PC space. IBM was, and still is, a huge company. Someone back then may have also assumed that IBM would stay on top of the PC market for a long time, but look what happened to them. It took them a long time to recover from the "attack of the clones", and even then they never regained top-dog status, and just recently gave up altogether by selling that division off to the Chinese company Lenovo.

Big companies can go from market leader to market loser or even bankrupt in a very short time.
Re:Nothing new for companies as large as MS by NoOneInParticular · 2005-09-04 21:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

Not really true. IBM might have been a big player in PC space, yet PC space was insignificant at the time. It's like saying Microsoft is in the market of fabricating mice. True, but hopelessly inadequate.
A more apt comparison would be to say that IBM was a huge player in the mainframe market. And where are they now? They're still a huge player in the mainframe market. It is just that this market has slowly eroded, and IBM is slowly changing to accommodate this. Likewise, only when the PC market will dwindle does Microsoft have anything to fear. Finally, 40 billion dollars go a long way for living through hard times. Don't count on Microsoft going away in the next few decades.
Re:Nothing new for companies as large as MS by 16K+Ram+Pack · 2005-09-04 21:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm tired of posting this, but I'll do it again, just to make it clear...
That 40 billion dollars is owned by the shareholders. Shareholders expect a return, whether on capital growth, or returns as dividends.
If Microsoft stop performing well, the shares will drop in price, unless they make payouts to shareholders (who would think it's a good investment). Shareholders will start coveting that large stash of money and demanding a piece of it.
That 40 billion could disappear in a second, from out of the company into the pockets of shareholders.

Re:And this is a suprise because by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-04 18:37 · Score: 3, Funny

Seriously. Bill Gates is about as genuine as all the emails I get from PayPal wanting to verify my account.

I feel like a spectator... by Mudcathi · 2005-09-04 18:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

... at a game between Go masters, and white just removed a bunch of black stones from the board

--

"He who throws mud, loses ground." - proverb

Re:I feel like a spectator... by CHESTER+COPPERPOT · 2005-09-04 18:44 · Score: 3, Interesting

It is fitting that you should say that cause Bill Gates is quite an accomplished Go player. Anyone who wants to understand how Go is used as a strategy particularly how that strategy influences strategic thought should read this paper.

Oh no! by AkaXakA · 2005-09-04 18:38 · Score: 5, Insightful

OMG! A global company is hiring people globaly!

People really, really need to put this into perspective.

Oh dear. by DMouse · 2005-09-04 18:39 · Score: 4, Insightful

Time for another round of "oh no, all our jobs are going to [insert country here]". Oh gebus. Spare me How many years of offshoring scaremongering do I have to put up with? I remember it from the 80s.

*sigh*

Re:Oh dear. by Dicky · 2005-09-04 18:56 · Score: 5, Interesting

I offshored myself.

Until early this year, I worked for Sun in the UK. They decided, in their infinite lack-of-wisdom, to close my office and lay everyone off (and have been trying to hire some people back ever since realising what a stupid move that was), pretty much because they thought they could replace us with much cheaper employees in Bejing.

So I went and got myself a job in Hong Kong - like Bejing, only a lot more expensive, widely English-speaking, and bloody civilised :-) And, no joking, I'm off to hear RMS speak here in a few minutes - I'm interested more in the reaction to him from the audience than what he has to say - not because I'm not interested in what he has to say, but because I've heard him say it before...

--
Paranoia isn't an infectious condition, it's a way of life

1.75% of the work force by ThinkFr33ly · 2005-09-04 18:40 · Score: 5, Insightful

Microsoft outsourcing 1000 jobs to China equates to about 1.75% of its work force. (57,000)

In addition, it's very probable that most of those jobs are for non-critical, non-core projects. This frees up the local developers to work on more important projects.

Could Microsoft hire more local workers to fill these positions? Sure... but it's hardly news that Microsoft outsources 1.75% of its workforce.

Re:1.75% of the work force by An+Onerous+Coward · 2005-09-04 23:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

Microsoft offshoring 1.75% of its workforce is no big deal.

Microsoft offshoring 1.75% of its workforce every year is a big deal.

"'At the time of my departure, MS was on track to outsource over 1,000 jobs a year to China,' [Lee] said in a court declaration."
Do you have any idea how quickly this adds up? Think where they'll be in ten years, or twenty.

grumble grumble... won't even read the bloody article... grumble grumble

--
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

Hah hah! by Seumas · 2005-09-04 18:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

And just a day or two ago, someone on Slashdot was telling me all about how at least Microsoft has never cut an American job for one overseas. Nyah nyah! :P

So when all the jobs are outsourced and everyone around the world is making $8/hr in the new Global Economy, who is going to be able to afford $200 for an operating system? Or $500 for Office? Or $1500 for Adobe?

Re:Hah hah! by gromitcode · 2005-09-04 18:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

ummm they haven't. This is not MS cutting US employees, they are hiring from overseas instead of hiring more from the US. So your point would be?
Re:Hah hah! by Seumas · 2005-09-04 18:59 · Score: 2, Insightful

Chinese are not pleased with the number of jobs being moved to China, and one of Lee's duties was to identify jobs for export.

MOVING and EXPORTING jobs is not the same as HIRING new people for new jobs.

Please give the man some credit by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-04 18:43 · Score: 2, Insightful

Through his foundation bill has been funding us schools. Is it his fault that the whole damn country hates anyone capable of critical thinking, as well as anyone who uses words longer than 4 letters.

Re:Please give the man some credit by tdubya · 2005-09-04 19:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

Your right, he ONLY donates over a billion dollars a year through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation... how inconsiderate of him..

So how much do you donate to education outside of your property taxes? (assuming you don't live in your parents basement, you actually own real property, and that you are employed... very unlikely for most slashdot readers)

--
I read /.! I like seeing how misinformed, short sighted, and downright stupid some people are.

People will never learn by crispybit · 2005-09-04 18:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

Why cant people just accept the fact that MS does these things for a logical business oriented reason. If you people have such a problem with their software why dont you get off your asses and go do something about it. Well this guys a hipocrit you say? Nay, Im moving to Washington next week to finish up my schooling at UW cause I know MS hires directly out of the UW Seattle CS Department

--
To think is to engineer, to engineer is to become God

Re:I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-04 18:45 · Score: 3, Insightful

Big difference - with Linux, the international help *helps* me with my job - with Microsoft the international help *competes* with me for my job.

Basically, with corporate budgets (and yes, even at microsoft's size is fixed) Windows is a zero-sum game - Linux jobs are not a zero-sum game because the more people that contribute the more my work can build on them.

Makes sense. by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-04 18:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

Microsoft can't keep buying the U.S. government off forever; eventually, someone is going to assume the U.S. presidency who will actually allow the department of justice to enforce antitrust law and hold it for long enough for a case against Microsoft to be litigated.

It would be good if before that happens, Microsoft could hedge their bets with a nation that can truly understand and respect them. China understands that capitalism should be used as a tool of oppression, not a tool to fight it, so they're the perfect escape from any other nation who might sit up once in awhile, remember that monopolies hurt markets, and try to meddle in the internal affairs of a company just because they're committing injustice or breaking the law or something. Rupert Murdoch is big on China for the exact same reason.

This Lawsuit will be the Gift that Keeps on GIving by putko · 2005-09-04 18:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

So this is the 2nd or 3rd time this lawsuit has produced interesting titbits about M$. This thing is going to be the gift that keeps on giving. Get the popcord and sit back and watch.

I somehow suspect that M$ will continue coming off as anti-human, anti-worker and just plain nasty.

--
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_s tone_your_children/dt21_18a.html

Crocodile tears by adrenaline_junky · 2005-09-04 19:02 · Score: 3, Informative

I may be the only fool here who had no idea what "crocodile tears" are, but according to http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-cro1.htm, "to weep crocodile tears is to pretend a sorrow that one doesn't in fact feel, to create a hypocritical show of emotion. The idea comes from the ancient belief that crocodiles weep while luring or devouring their prey."

So now I know.

Re:Crocodile tears by DNS-and-BIND · 2005-09-04 20:05 · Score: 5, Informative

It's not a "belief", some species of crocodiles weep when they devour their prey. The tears help lubricate the swallowing.

--
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!

What a concept... by shmlco · 2005-09-04 19:06 · Score: 4, Insightful

If a company wanted to penetrate a market of a billion or so people, it might be... work with me here... a halfway decent idea to hire a few locals here and there to help develop and localize your products for that market. Not to mention the sales, marketing, legal, administrative, and other types one might need to service said market.

This is news?

--
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.

Re:What a concept... by Arandir · 2005-09-04 19:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

No, it's not news. What is news is this snippet from the blurbette: "it seems that the Chinese are not pleased with the number of jobs being moved to China...

WTF! Who the hell cares about how pleased they are? You do want native people in China, but you don't *move* jobs there, you create jobs there! Expanding into a market doesn't mean you fire people in your old markets. Sheesh!

--
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned

Re:GoogleDot by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-04 19:09 · Score: 5, Funny

Uhhh, http://www.googledot.org/

It's all logical. by nich0las · 2005-09-04 19:09 · Score: 2, Interesting

If you are the Borg(hence your goal is to assimilate) you would make the same move as well. Why bother with a couple hundred million peons in America when you can consume billions in an Asian country? Statisticly and logically it's the smart move. It's all exponential. This little uprise from the Chinese is just their last struggle. They too will be assimilated. Rest easy little lambs, we will all soon become Borg.

Re:Perspective? by jcr · 2005-09-04 19:12 · Score: 4, Insightful

Do they owe the U.S. anything more than corporate taxes?

They don't have any obligations beyond complying with the contracts they enter into, the laws in the countries where they operate, and their fiduciary responsibilty to their shareholders.

I say yes, they do.

Guess again, sport. Wishing doesn't make it so.

-jcr

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."

Time to Retire C + +?' by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-04 19:14 · Score: 4, Funny

Hello Gentlemen,

I'm a first year programming student at an Ivy League school and I've
just finished my Visual Basic classes. This term I'll be moving onto
C++. However I've noticed some issues with C++ that I'd like to
discuss with the rest of the programming community. Please do not
think of me as being technically ignorant. In addition to VB, I am
very skilled at HTML programming, one of the most challenging
languages out there!

C++ is based on a concept known as Object Oriented Programming. In
this style of programming (also known as OOPS in the coding community)
a programmer builds "objects" or "glasses" out of his code, and then
manipulates these "glasses". Since I'm assuming that you, dear reader,
are as skilled at programming as I am, I'll skip further explanation
of these "glasses".

Please allow me to make a brief aside here and discuss the origins C++
for a moment. My research shows that this language is one of the
oldest languages in existence, pre-dating even assembly! It was
created in the early 70s when AT&T began looking for a new language to
write BSD, its Unix Operation System (later on, other companies would
"borrow" the BSD source code to build both Solaris and Linux!)
Interestingly, the name C++ is a pun by the creator of the language.
When the first beta was released, it was remarked that the language
would be graded as a C+, because of how hideously complex and unwieldy
it was. The extra plus was tacked on during a later release when some
of these issues were fixed. The language would still be graded a C,
but it was the highest C possible! Truly a clever name for this
language.

Back to the topic on hand, I feel that C++ - despite its flaws - has
been a very valuable tool to the world of computers. Unfortunately
it's starting to show its age, and I feel that it should be
retired, as COBOL, ADA and Smalltalk seem to have been. Recently I've
become acquainted with another language that's quite recently been
developed. Its one that promises to greatly simplify programming. This
new language is called C.

Although syntactically borrowing a great deal from its predecessor
C++, C greatly simplifies things (thus its name, which hints at its
simpler nature by striping off the clunky double-pluses.) Its biggest
strength is that it abandons an OOPS-style of programming. No more
awkward "objects" or "glasses". Instead C uses what are called
structs. Vaguely similar to a C++ "glass", a struct does away with
anachronisms like inheritance, namespaces and the whole
private/public/protected/friend access issues of its variables and
routines. By freeing the programmer from the requirement to juggle all
these issues, the coder can focus on implementing his algorithm and
rapidly developing his application.

While C lacks the speed and robustness of C++, I think these are petty
issues. Given the speed of modern computers, the relative sluggishness
of C shouldn't be an issue. Robustness and stability will occur as C
becomes more pervasive amongst the programming community and it
becomes more fine-tuned. Eventually C should have stability rivaling
that of C++.

I'm hoping to see C adopted as the de facto standard of programming.
Based on what I've learned of this language, the future seems very
bright indeed for C! Eventually, many years from now, perhaps we'll
even see an operating system coded in this language.

Thank you for your time. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

Re:Time to Retire C + +?' by bladesjester · 2005-09-05 04:21 · Score: 2, Informative

It's not a troll. It's satire, really.

That sort of thing seems to be lost on a lot of the people who responded to it.

--
Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Re:Time to Retire C + +?' by ScrappyLaptop · 2005-09-05 06:19 · Score: 2, Insightful

Plagerized satire about poorly educated IT workers...now that's ironic!
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/brows e_thread/thread/4d7d5feddc66f7a/e88f4c2a88cddc0c?q =%22time+to+retire+C%2B%2B%22&
Funny thing is how few people, then or now, recognize that the author is intentionally crafting the misinformation and new-CS-student attitude. Thanks to the person in this present-day thread for pointing me to Egg Troll's writings! Can anonymous coward have an ego?

Re:Hang on by jcr · 2005-09-04 19:18 · Score: 5, Insightful

So Windows XP was put together by the best brains that money could buy

Well, this is true in a sense, but money can't buy the best brains.

-jcr

--
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."

Re:I don't get it. by jtpalinmajere · 2005-09-04 19:21 · Score: 3, Insightful

Big difference - with Linux, the international help *helps* me with my job - with Microsoft the international help *competes* with me for my job.

... but isn't it this very slashdot crowd that cries "competition is a good thing!" Having to compete for your job means you have to do better at it, do it for less, do it faster, etc. all in an effort to add value to the service you are paid for. If there is no competition, many will simply settle for stagnation and small to no income raises. On the other hand when competition exists, the smart ones will step it up a notch and in the long run be better off for it due to their own maintenance/increase in standard of living through pay/benefits, but also because when a company's employees produce more with less there tend to be increased profits... which in turn can be used to bolster the company as well as reward those that help to make it happen.

Complaining about outsourcing and how it will steal our jobs isn't going to change the fact that right now the people overseas are likely doing their job cheaper, faster, and in many cases better than the 'equivalent' US worker. Instead, get off your ass, find opportunities to make yourself shine, and add value to your company in ways that distinguish you from your overseas counterparts... other than the tremendously more expensive cost for service that is.

Re:I don't get it. by montyzooooma · 2005-09-04 19:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

You're right and you could go further and say that supporting any not-for-profit software development is actively trying to take away jobs from the people who make their living at it. What seems to upset people here is the thought that Microsoft (or whoever) is taking one paying job and moving it to another country just to save money. If OTOH they just canned the jobs outright people would be dancing in the streets saying it was the beginning of the end for M$ (or whoever) and didn't they deserve it. It would suck to have your job taken away and moved to China or India but it probably sucks more to be Chinese or Indian and not have the opportunity to better yourself.

They have risen! Beware! by SuperKendall · 2005-09-04 19:33 · Score: 4, Funny

Through his foundation bill has been funding us schools.

The schools have attained self-awareness!

Our only chance is to strike them down while they are occupied futility arguing on Slashdot and are not creating weapons of ultimate doom out of cafeteria food.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley

Re:I don't get it. by Grishnakh · 2005-09-04 19:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

It would suck to have your job taken away and moved to China or India but it probably sucks more to be Chinese or Indian and not have the opportunity to better yourself.

The Chinese and Indians are free to open all the companies they want to employ their own people. They don't need American companies coming there to have jobs. To insinuate that Chinese and Indian people are incapable of starting their own companies, instead of merely working at the whim of Americans, seems extremely insulting to me. India has many successful native companies, such as Tata and Wipro, and China has many other successful native companies like Lenovo (which just bought out IBM's PC business).

Re:I don't get it. by MillionthMonkey · 2005-09-04 19:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

... but isn't it this very slashdot crowd that cries "competition is a good thing!"

Besides promulgating the "all of Slashdot speaks with one voice" fallacy, you are confusing competition for goods and services with competition for jobs.

Test is getting outsourced to China by melted · 2005-09-04 20:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

Not all of it, either. Mostly manual test, requiring little to no skill. For this kind of test, it sure would be a waste to pay someone in Redmond $60-70K/yr. Automated test, infrastructure, security, perf/stres, and all other critical test remains in Redmond so far.

What was said above was only about China, though. Indian insiders seem to push real hard to get not only testing, but also development and program management to India. However, since they aren't (yet) an overwhelmin majority here, only low-impact work items go to India, so that if folks in India fuck it up (and they often do), we could fix the situation without slipping the schedule much. Overall, I'd say "split" development leads to worse code quality, but it's still a lot better than if all of it was developed in India.

Re:I don't get it. by FidelCatsro · 2005-09-04 20:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

Slashdot speaks with three voices , everyone thinks it is one because each of the three different groups are always doing sarcastic imitations of the other groups .Everyone has forgotten which voice is which so are using the same voice ..
Job competition is the same as any other type of free market competition . Offering a service or goods for the best price and let the consumer choose .The only difference is that the employers are the consumers.
The only thing i can see as illogical about off shoring is that your normally kicking one of primary markets in the crotch .Sure it may help create a new market but it will be in the short term at least damaging to a main consumer base and the long term advantage is risky . Transfer wealth from your primary market and you could cause a domino effect , not to mention the PR perhaps persuading your consumers to go with the competitors .
It would be better if they would instead of shutting down current bases of operation ,just open new ones to help create the new market

--
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though

China has its own agenda by Lonewolf666 · 2005-09-04 20:48 · Score: 4, Informative

In other news, you can often read that China allowed some foreign investment only if the investor makes significant concessions in form of technology transfer. Frequently, this takes the form of requiring a partnership with a chinese company. This way, the chinese make sure they get their part of the profits and get their hands on the know-how.

If Microsoft think they have a cushy retreat in China, they are in for a nasty surprise. As much as I dislike the way Chinese government tramples human rights, their ways of keeping greedy corporations in their place deserves some respect.

--
C - the footgun of programming languages

Re:Hang on by Belsical · 2005-09-04 20:51 · Score: 5, Informative

I'm a developer at Microsoft and I've worked with devs located in India, China, and the UK. You couldn't be more incorrect about, well, anything you said. I just visited the Beijing offices and they were just like ours in the Redmond. These are not contractors. They are full time employees delivering important components of large products. Their interview process is the same, they're paid the same wages (adjusted to cost of living for that region), and given the same benefits. Their review process is the same - based on quality, not quantity of code.

Devs from India come to Redmond to meet with developers here and they're welcomed with open arms. They're treated the same as other devs. They come out to lunch with us, attend morale events, company functions, etc.

We're an international company...and we hire internationally. Get over it. We're going to hire smart people all over the world. We always have, it's just that now there are options other than having them move half-way around the world.

--

"There are no such things as mutual fantasies. Yours bore us and ours offend you."
- Bill Maher

they're sincere... by cahiha · 2005-09-04 21:11 · Score: 4, Interesting

I think Microsoft has had a very bad influence on CS job prospects (note: MCSE is not a CS job). However, the fact that they are now having to go to China is a case of being hoisted by their own petard; after they destroyed most of the interesting R&D jobs, they don't have a choice but to go to China. So, I think Gates's lamentations are sincere; he probably doesn't even understand what he has done to CS research in this country.

In any case, even without Microsoft's destructive influence, Chinese high-tech workers would still be competing with US high-tech workes. And the Chinese government is fully within its rights to demand that any company doing business with/in China move jobs there--the US government is doing the same thing.

Re:Um, Stallman is an American by Quino · 2005-09-04 21:37 · Score: 2, Insightful

I think it's backwards. Given the GNU movement (the movement, the license, the goal of an OS) Linux was inevitable. It was a simple matter of (most likely, a very short) time.

Without the GNU movement, nothing would have happened. Linux (the kernel) was an inevitable an obvious goal after that. Stallman simply does not get the credit he deserves, and Linus is given credit for a movement, license, ideology and an OS where credit for a kernel is due.

Microsoft vrs the USA by brakken · 2005-09-04 21:40 · Score: 4, Funny

If I was Bill Gates when the USA tried to take his wealth from him with that BS lawsuit I would of told them to screw off, fired everyone in the USA and moved my company to another country. Hopefully this happens and don't go blaming old Bill if it does. Why would you want to be in a Country trying to rape you for cash?

--
[ brakken ]

Re:I don't get it. by dslbrian · 2005-09-04 21:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

Complaining about outsourcing and how it will steal our jobs isn't going to change the fact that right now the people overseas are likely doing their job cheaper, faster, and in many cases better than the 'equivalent' US worker. Instead, get off your ass, find opportunities...

Actually having worked with some of those overseas people I can tell you they are not doing the job cheaper, faster, or better. What they usually do is make the job take three times as long as it should, consistently foul up the most simple tasks, and hop jobs to a better "overseas" position in the middle of the project. But thats not the point I want to make.

While the US is collectively sitting on its "ass" as you say, the government has been shipping money and expertise overseas at an unreal rate. Consider when you run enormous trade defecits, increase the unemployment level of your "skilled" workers, and in the process ship all your technical expertise over to a country which in the near future will likely be your competitor rather than your cheap slave labor, it paints a very bad long term picture. In the end, you will end up being the 3rd world country, while your technically skilled overseas counterparts will be reaping the profits of your giveaways.

On top of that, while your sitting here in the US surrounded by hoards of unemployed workers who sat on their collective ass during the whole thing, those workers are no longer contributing to the tax base, in fact they are all on welfare - so who exactly is going to be paying for the roads your driving on, and the schools your kids go to? The small fraction of elite workers left here who still have jobs certainly aren't going to support it all.

Isn't it interesting that we are not exporting our CEO jobs overseas? After all, by your logic those overseas CEOs should be doing the job cheaper, faster, and better, right? Or do you mean only lowly semi-skilled overseas workers do things cheaper, faster, and better?

In any event, the US government needs to be more proactive in protecting its interests in this area. Companies run on the work done by their entire lower rank - the grunt jobs. And I would bet most such jobs have some amount of technical expertise, and more importantly experience. For many jobs if you gave me a choice of choosing someone with a PhD and little experience, versus someone with 20years experience I would tend to choose the experienced one rather than the PhD. But at the rate we are exporting our technical expertise we won't have anyone left here with long term experience (the ones with the most will retire, and no one will replace them).

Re:I don't get it. by drsquare · 2005-09-05 01:08 · Score: 3, Insightful

When people from all over the world can write for Linux, it's a good thing.

When people from all over the world can write for Microsoft, it's a bad thing, because Americans should get all the jobs?

I don't follow. What's so special about Americans that they should get all the jobs? Doesn't sound like that's a very healthy situation.

What would be the repsonse if jobs were being outsourced to Britain or Australia?

Re:Hang on by mpaque · 2005-09-05 03:36 · Score: 2, Informative

they're paid the same wages (adjusted to cost of living for that region)

Nice out, that. I'm sure the MSFT hiring managers would be happy to hire folks with a Masters in CS and 5-10 years experience within the US if they could only get them to work for 21,200 USD/year. (Starting salary in China for a BS in CS was 13,300 USD/year from the 2003 EE Survey.)

Re:2old2rockNroll is idiot by 2old2rockNroll · 2005-09-05 03:42 · Score: 2, Insightful

The best of all is - the way he put it, it looks like while MS exports jobs, Google hires this PhD guy Lee to open a fucking kindergarten or something.

Or maybe you have a reading comprehension problem. Whatever Lee is doing for Google has nothing to do with the blurb or what Microsoft has been claiming. They have publicly bemoaned the number of CS gradutes and have been lobbying the feds to increase the H-1B cap, while in fact they aren't interested in hiring locally.

From this, we can see that Microsoft had an unbelievable 50% increase in income during the last year while headcount increased by less than 3,000. Since we know that MS is "growing the work force" in China by over 1,000 per year and an unknown but most likely similar number in India (and smaller numbers for other countries), that leaves little, nothing, or negative job growth for the US. It is also interesting that there is a quid pro quo with the Chinese based on jobs, which was certainly not public information. You can return to your astroturfing now, and that should be "an idiot".

Funny that....... by mormop · 2005-09-05 04:09 · Score: 3, Interesting

Last Wednesday I see this:

China Daily covers an anti-Linux FUD campaign being run by the China Software Industry Association. "Sun Yufang, a Chinese scholar who has long been researching Linux software, says most Linux developers cannot make a living under the current business model. Most of these developers 'either have died or have focused on other businesses in past years,' Sun says."

And then today:

Google Lawsuit Exposes Microsoft Offshoring Deal.

I wonder if these two events are in any way related?

--
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.

MS in China: trying to have its cake and eat it by hsuwh · 2005-09-05 05:30 · Score: 3, Informative

MS has been trying to build bridges to China for more than seven years: first in founding Microsoft Research China (now MSR Asia), a pure research facility that eventually became an R&D wing. Kai-Fu Lee, the former exec being sued for going to Google, founded MSR China in 1998 and came back to Redmond in 2000.

Several years back Ballmer shook hands on a $100M outsourcing plsu $20M investment deal that senior management found it hard to live up to, and so they amended it to $55M in jobs and $60M in investments in Chinese IT.

If you look at the Seattle Times article, there are links to the court filings, including KFL's deposition, where he indicates that a major part of his work on MS's international business since coming back to the states, has been keeping MS from making blunders. These include making ill-advised promises that it hasn't been able to live up to, and (if it had) would have meant outsourcing at a rate that would strip American jobs, despite its assurances.

Mirosoft's China strategy is starting to fall apart as its hiring has slowed stateside and it becomes evident that it's trying to have its cake and eat it too.

--
ICQ: 28651394 = AIM/MSN/YIM: hsuwh = www.livejournal.com/~banazir

Re:Outsourcers are treasonous traitors. Hang them by jd_esguerra · 2005-09-05 12:56 · Score: 2

And just leave the bodies hanging from the rope, to rot, just to remind people what this is all about. You gotta get Old Skool, my fellow Americans, or else, ya gonna go 3rd world. Just my ever humble opinion....

Oh, great post! Claim that we're headed for third-world status, and then follow up with a call for mob-style lynching! Wow is that backwards.

"Humble" opinion? I think you confused the word "humble" with the word "stupid." This being the USA, you are more than welcome to express your opinions. I might even take note of them occasionally. Here is a tip: Your opinion will probably carry more weight with intelligent people when it isn't self-contradictory and doesn't convey the image of the author (you) being a "redneck high-school dropout." (No offense to real rednecks.)

Shit. I was even considering modding you up so so people could read your post and laugh at you.

Er, you mean generating new TPMs... by leonbrooks · 2005-09-05 22:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

...the better to entangle competitors in DMCA-like laws with?

They are full time employees delivering important components of large products.

Like that snippet of encrypted code in Win 3.11 that detected DR-DOS and crashed? Or badge-engineering BSD FTP? Or writing an XboX BIOS that deliberately shuts down if you replace the hard drive with something bootable? Or devising a weapon with which to kill Google?

Not trashing Asian IT workers, since they often outproduce Australians in Australia and are generally no more incompetent, but I really don't think you grok the focus of "important" in the eyes of Microsoft's management.

--
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing

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