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Google Lawsuit Exposes Microsoft Offshoring Deal
2old2rockNroll writes "In more news from Microsoft's Google lawsuit, it appears that Ballmer's 2003 trip to China may have had as much to do with Microsoft moving jobs as selling software. It seems that the Chinese are not pleased with the number of jobs being moved to China, and one of Lee's duties was to identify jobs for export. Although hiring in Redmond has slowed, a Microsoft spokesperson admits they are "growing their work force" in China. Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
"Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
How many times do people need to be reminded? Investing in MS is risking having your own money used against you in the marketplace.
why is this significant again? Companies offshore all the time. Hell, some companies move their headquarters to different continents.
Is it possible that Bill Gates' recent lament over the decline of US CS graduates and research spending was merely crocodile tears?"
That's called "marketing". Microsoft cries shortage, geeks raise their hands like an eager student with an answer in class. I sure as hell would take a job from Microsoft if given the opprotunity. I'd surely go to hell for it as well, but fact is... Microsoft is on top, and will be for a long time. With top-rung knowledge and experience, one can definitely sprint to retirement well before 99% of the people that (s)he graduated with from secondary school.
Other thing is, China has a lot of people. And a lot of smart people. Survey says: Cheap labour and lots of it.
Seriously. Bill Gates is about as genuine as all the emails I get from PayPal wanting to verify my account.
OMG! A global company is hiring people globaly!
People really, really need to put this into perspective.
Time for another round of "oh no, all our jobs are going to [insert country here]". Oh gebus. Spare me How many years of offshoring scaremongering do I have to put up with? I remember it from the 80s.
*sigh*
Microsoft outsourcing 1000 jobs to China equates to about 1.75% of its work force. (57,000)
In addition, it's very probable that most of those jobs are for non-critical, non-core projects. This frees up the local developers to work on more important projects.
Could Microsoft hire more local workers to fill these positions? Sure... but it's hardly news that Microsoft outsources 1.75% of its workforce.
And just a day or two ago, someone on Slashdot was telling me all about how at least Microsoft has never cut an American job for one overseas. Nyah nyah! :P
So when all the jobs are outsourced and everyone around the world is making $8/hr in the new Global Economy, who is going to be able to afford $200 for an operating system? Or $500 for Office? Or $1500 for Adobe?
It is fitting that you should say that cause Bill Gates is quite an accomplished Go player. Anyone who wants to understand how Go is used as a strategy particularly how that strategy influences strategic thought should read this paper.
Basically, with corporate budgets (and yes, even at microsoft's size is fixed) Windows is a zero-sum game - Linux jobs are not a zero-sum game because the more people that contribute the more my work can build on them.
Microsoft can't keep buying the U.S. government off forever; eventually, someone is going to assume the U.S. presidency who will actually allow the department of justice to enforce antitrust law and hold it for long enough for a case against Microsoft to be litigated.
It would be good if before that happens, Microsoft could hedge their bets with a nation that can truly understand and respect them. China understands that capitalism should be used as a tool of oppression, not a tool to fight it, so they're the perfect escape from any other nation who might sit up once in awhile, remember that monopolies hurt markets, and try to meddle in the internal affairs of a company just because they're committing injustice or breaking the law or something. Rupert Murdoch is big on China for the exact same reason.
So this is the 2nd or 3rd time this lawsuit has produced interesting titbits about M$. This thing is going to be the gift that keeps on giving. Get the popcord and sit back and watch.
I somehow suspect that M$ will continue coming off as anti-human, anti-worker and just plain nasty.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_
I may be the only fool here who had no idea what "crocodile tears" are, but according to http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-cro1.htm, "to weep crocodile tears is to pretend a sorrow that one doesn't in fact feel, to create a hypocritical show of emotion. The idea comes from the ancient belief that crocodiles weep while luring or devouring their prey."
So now I know.
This is news?
Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
Uhhh, http://www.googledot.org/
Do they owe the U.S. anything more than corporate taxes?
They don't have any obligations beyond complying with the contracts they enter into, the laws in the countries where they operate, and their fiduciary responsibilty to their shareholders.
I say yes, they do.
Guess again, sport. Wishing doesn't make it so.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Hello Gentlemen,
I'm a first year programming student at an Ivy League school and I've
just finished my Visual Basic classes. This term I'll be moving onto
C++. However I've noticed some issues with C++ that I'd like to
discuss with the rest of the programming community. Please do not
think of me as being technically ignorant. In addition to VB, I am
very skilled at HTML programming, one of the most challenging
languages out there!
C++ is based on a concept known as Object Oriented Programming. In
this style of programming (also known as OOPS in the coding community)
a programmer builds "objects" or "glasses" out of his code, and then
manipulates these "glasses". Since I'm assuming that you, dear reader,
are as skilled at programming as I am, I'll skip further explanation
of these "glasses".
Please allow me to make a brief aside here and discuss the origins C++
for a moment. My research shows that this language is one of the
oldest languages in existence, pre-dating even assembly! It was
created in the early 70s when AT&T began looking for a new language to
write BSD, its Unix Operation System (later on, other companies would
"borrow" the BSD source code to build both Solaris and Linux!)
Interestingly, the name C++ is a pun by the creator of the language.
When the first beta was released, it was remarked that the language
would be graded as a C+, because of how hideously complex and unwieldy
it was. The extra plus was tacked on during a later release when some
of these issues were fixed. The language would still be graded a C,
but it was the highest C possible! Truly a clever name for this
language.
Back to the topic on hand, I feel that C++ - despite its flaws - has
been a very valuable tool to the world of computers. Unfortunately
it's starting to show its age, and I feel that it should be
retired, as COBOL, ADA and Smalltalk seem to have been. Recently I've
become acquainted with another language that's quite recently been
developed. Its one that promises to greatly simplify programming. This
new language is called C.
Although syntactically borrowing a great deal from its predecessor
C++, C greatly simplifies things (thus its name, which hints at its
simpler nature by striping off the clunky double-pluses.) Its biggest
strength is that it abandons an OOPS-style of programming. No more
awkward "objects" or "glasses". Instead C uses what are called
structs. Vaguely similar to a C++ "glass", a struct does away with
anachronisms like inheritance, namespaces and the whole
private/public/protected/friend access issues of its variables and
routines. By freeing the programmer from the requirement to juggle all
these issues, the coder can focus on implementing his algorithm and
rapidly developing his application.
While C lacks the speed and robustness of C++, I think these are petty
issues. Given the speed of modern computers, the relative sluggishness
of C shouldn't be an issue. Robustness and stability will occur as C
becomes more pervasive amongst the programming community and it
becomes more fine-tuned. Eventually C should have stability rivaling
that of C++.
I'm hoping to see C adopted as the de facto standard of programming.
Based on what I've learned of this language, the future seems very
bright indeed for C! Eventually, many years from now, perhaps we'll
even see an operating system coded in this language.
Thank you for your time. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.
So Windows XP was put together by the best brains that money could buy
Well, this is true in a sense, but money can't buy the best brains.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Big difference - with Linux, the international help *helps* me with my job - with Microsoft the international help *competes* with me for my job.
... but isn't it this very slashdot crowd that cries "competition is a good thing!" Having to compete for your job means you have to do better at it, do it for less, do it faster, etc. all in an effort to add value to the service you are paid for. If there is no competition, many will simply settle for stagnation and small to no income raises. On the other hand when competition exists, the smart ones will step it up a notch and in the long run be better off for it due to their own maintenance/increase in standard of living through pay/benefits, but also because when a company's employees produce more with less there tend to be increased profits... which in turn can be used to bolster the company as well as reward those that help to make it happen.
Complaining about outsourcing and how it will steal our jobs isn't going to change the fact that right now the people overseas are likely doing their job cheaper, faster, and in many cases better than the 'equivalent' US worker. Instead, get off your ass, find opportunities to make yourself shine, and add value to your company in ways that distinguish you from your overseas counterparts... other than the tremendously more expensive cost for service that is.
Through his foundation bill has been funding us schools.
The schools have attained self-awareness!
Our only chance is to strike them down while they are occupied futility arguing on Slashdot and are not creating weapons of ultimate doom out of cafeteria food.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
It would suck to have your job taken away and moved to China or India but it probably sucks more to be Chinese or Indian and not have the opportunity to better yourself.
The Chinese and Indians are free to open all the companies they want to employ their own people. They don't need American companies coming there to have jobs. To insinuate that Chinese and Indian people are incapable of starting their own companies, instead of merely working at the whim of Americans, seems extremely insulting to me. India has many successful native companies, such as Tata and Wipro, and China has many other successful native companies like Lenovo (which just bought out IBM's PC business).
In other news, you can often read that China allowed some foreign investment only if the investor makes significant concessions in form of technology transfer. Frequently, this takes the form of requiring a partnership with a chinese company. This way, the chinese make sure they get their part of the profits and get their hands on the know-how.
If Microsoft think they have a cushy retreat in China, they are in for a nasty surprise. As much as I dislike the way Chinese government tramples human rights, their ways of keeping greedy corporations in their place deserves some respect.
C - the footgun of programming languages
I'm a developer at Microsoft and I've worked with devs located in India, China, and the UK. You couldn't be more incorrect about, well, anything you said. I just visited the Beijing offices and they were just like ours in the Redmond. These are not contractors. They are full time employees delivering important components of large products. Their interview process is the same, they're paid the same wages (adjusted to cost of living for that region), and given the same benefits. Their review process is the same - based on quality, not quantity of code.
Devs from India come to Redmond to meet with developers here and they're welcomed with open arms. They're treated the same as other devs. They come out to lunch with us, attend morale events, company functions, etc.
We're an international company...and we hire internationally. Get over it. We're going to hire smart people all over the world. We always have, it's just that now there are options other than having them move half-way around the world.
"There are no such things as mutual fantasies. Yours bore us and ours offend you."
- Bill Maher
I think Microsoft has had a very bad influence on CS job prospects (note: MCSE is not a CS job). However, the fact that they are now having to go to China is a case of being hoisted by their own petard; after they destroyed most of the interesting R&D jobs, they don't have a choice but to go to China. So, I think Gates's lamentations are sincere; he probably doesn't even understand what he has done to CS research in this country.
In any case, even without Microsoft's destructive influence, Chinese high-tech workers would still be competing with US high-tech workes. And the Chinese government is fully within its rights to demand that any company doing business with/in China move jobs there--the US government is doing the same thing.
If I was Bill Gates when the USA tried to take his wealth from him with that BS lawsuit I would of told them to screw off, fired everyone in the USA and moved my company to another country. Hopefully this happens and don't go blaming old Bill if it does. Why would you want to be in a Country trying to rape you for cash?
[ brakken ]
Complaining about outsourcing and how it will steal our jobs isn't going to change the fact that right now the people overseas are likely doing their job cheaper, faster, and in many cases better than the 'equivalent' US worker. Instead, get off your ass, find opportunities...
Actually having worked with some of those overseas people I can tell you they are not doing the job cheaper, faster, or better. What they usually do is make the job take three times as long as it should, consistently foul up the most simple tasks, and hop jobs to a better "overseas" position in the middle of the project. But thats not the point I want to make.
While the US is collectively sitting on its "ass" as you say, the government has been shipping money and expertise overseas at an unreal rate. Consider when you run enormous trade defecits, increase the unemployment level of your "skilled" workers, and in the process ship all your technical expertise over to a country which in the near future will likely be your competitor rather than your cheap slave labor, it paints a very bad long term picture. In the end, you will end up being the 3rd world country, while your technically skilled overseas counterparts will be reaping the profits of your giveaways.
On top of that, while your sitting here in the US surrounded by hoards of unemployed workers who sat on their collective ass during the whole thing, those workers are no longer contributing to the tax base, in fact they are all on welfare - so who exactly is going to be paying for the roads your driving on, and the schools your kids go to? The small fraction of elite workers left here who still have jobs certainly aren't going to support it all.
Isn't it interesting that we are not exporting our CEO jobs overseas? After all, by your logic those overseas CEOs should be doing the job cheaper, faster, and better, right? Or do you mean only lowly semi-skilled overseas workers do things cheaper, faster, and better?
In any event, the US government needs to be more proactive in protecting its interests in this area. Companies run on the work done by their entire lower rank - the grunt jobs. And I would bet most such jobs have some amount of technical expertise, and more importantly experience. For many jobs if you gave me a choice of choosing someone with a PhD and little experience, versus someone with 20years experience I would tend to choose the experienced one rather than the PhD. But at the rate we are exporting our technical expertise we won't have anyone left here with long term experience (the ones with the most will retire, and no one will replace them).
When people from all over the world can write for Linux, it's a good thing.
When people from all over the world can write for Microsoft, it's a bad thing, because Americans should get all the jobs?
I don't follow. What's so special about Americans that they should get all the jobs? Doesn't sound like that's a very healthy situation.
What would be the repsonse if jobs were being outsourced to Britain or Australia?
Last Wednesday I see this:
China Daily covers an anti-Linux FUD campaign being run by the China Software Industry Association. "Sun Yufang, a Chinese scholar who has long been researching Linux software, says most Linux developers cannot make a living under the current business model. Most of these developers 'either have died or have focused on other businesses in past years,' Sun says."
And then today:
Google Lawsuit Exposes Microsoft Offshoring Deal.
I wonder if these two events are in any way related?
Hmmmmmm..... Deep fried and look like Squirrel.
MS has been trying to build bridges to China for more than seven years: first in founding Microsoft Research China (now MSR Asia), a pure research facility that eventually became an R&D wing. Kai-Fu Lee, the former exec being sued for going to Google, founded MSR China in 1998 and came back to Redmond in 2000.
Several years back Ballmer shook hands on a $100M outsourcing plsu $20M investment deal that senior management found it hard to live up to, and so they amended it to $55M in jobs and $60M in investments in Chinese IT.
If you look at the Seattle Times article, there are links to the court filings, including KFL's deposition, where he indicates that a major part of his work on MS's international business since coming back to the states, has been keeping MS from making blunders. These include making ill-advised promises that it hasn't been able to live up to, and (if it had) would have meant outsourcing at a rate that would strip American jobs, despite its assurances.
Mirosoft's China strategy is starting to fall apart as its hiring has slowed stateside and it becomes evident that it's trying to have its cake and eat it too.
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