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How Much Money do Programmers Really Make?
bigman2003 asks: "ADTmag.com recently released a list of average salaries for IT workers. Usually when I see these lists, I find out that I am grossly below the average salary. But this time I was very surprised to see that I am actually above the average! This is partly because of a recent raise, but it is also because the numbers quoted in this survey are lower than what I've seen the past from other surveys. This report quotes about $56,000 for the average application developer. I am a web developer (sure, laugh all you want) and I wanted to know specifically: How much are other web developers were making? And- How many hours a week does it take you to make it?"
It's not that easy. Where you live, standard of living costs, specialized training and abilities, years of experience, etc, all influence and alter this. Averages give you an idea, but you have to go on your abilities and what you can find. If you like your job, it often means more than an extra 5-10k per year. I think the real issue here is that people like to know how they rank compared to others, and reality is way to gray for that black & white approach.
Microsoft Sucks, F/OSS Rocks. I get mod points now right?
How much you make is pretty meaningless without normalizing by cost of living. $50k in Idaho is effectively 2x as much as $50k in San Francisco.
-me
I'm a web developer, doing fine, but I'm not really conformable divulging what I make on Slashdot.
I don't mean this as a personal slam, but that exact attitude keeps salaries low. Why NOT talk about your salary? If you don't talk about it, you can't know how you compare. And although you might not care how you compare in a rat-race sense, you damned well should care that your employer treats you "fairly"...
Me, I make just a hair over $40k. Sound low, for someone with 10 years experience? In my area, I can afford a mortgage on that. And together with my SO, as a DINK couple, we do pretty damned well combined.
TALK about your salary! Don't brag about it, that just sounds obnoxious, but chat. Make sure that neither you nor your friends have gotten royally screwed.
I will never understand people who have this phobia of discussing how much they make. If you make something truly obscene (either minimum wage or seven figures), okay, you might have a reason to shy away from the topic - But within an order of magnitude of "average", help create a basis of comparison! It only hurts us, the workers, to remain tight-lipped about it.
You are making too much.
You are responsible for the design and implementation of the entire system, and yet you allow a huge, honking unreliable single point of failure that can bring the entire operation to its knees - you. That doesn't smack of good systems design to me.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
The best way to find out what you should be making is to get some job offers from other employers. If you are underpaid, then you will probably not have too much difficulty getting a better offer. This will also give you the opportunity to negotiate, without fear, with your present employer.
On the other hand, if you are better-paid than average, it will be hard to find a better paying job.
One of the best bosses I ever had told me (among other people), "If you don't think you are being paid enough, look for another job that will pay you what you think you are worth. You will soon find out if you are right." I eventually took his advice, got another offer, and my employer countered.
And don't be shy about asking prospective employers for what you think you are worth. They won't hesitate to tell you if your expectations are out of line. If they say "OK" too quickly, you know you set your price too low.
Does anyone have any idea what someone like that should be making?
A request to hire a second IT guy. You can't do everything reliably, even if you were paid to do everything.
> I still can not understand why the average pay of a well-seasoned applications designer is still no match to that of a recently-graduated MBA
That is the attitude of a Computer Science student or recent grad.
Look at any company. Find where the money comes into that company. See how close or far your position is to that money entering the company. That determines your salary right there.
A company doesn't mind paying salespeople (who perform well) plenty of money because it is clear what they are worth. They are bringing in the money that keeps the company alive.
MBAs are closer to the money. They are in a "profit-center" of their companies.
The programmers are pretty far from the money. In most companies they are in a "cost-center", ie: they are a cost that the company grudgingly pays as a cost of doing business. They would be eager to lower that cost.
At one place I worked a few years ago there were programmers who worked in the "back office" servicing the company-wide infrastructure and there were programmers who working directly for a "front office" department, ie: closer to where the money is made. I worked for a front-office department and made $120K for doing the exact same thing programmers in the back office were paid $60K to do.
Just follow the money...
- For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat
...you're only worth what somebody else is willing to pay you.
I've heard the same thing from my last employer and while it's hard to disagree with such hard-nosed economic logic, I think it breaks down for a lot of IT jobs because IT jobs tend to be pretty fluid -- they often flow around the rigid HR-type job descriptions. Developers admin systems, admins doing programming, DBAs doing admin tasks AND programming, guys (like the grandparent poster) doing it all. Immersively intellectually challenging work that involves taking calls once a week about spyware and why the Intraweb is down? Or repetitive tasks, but never suffering end-luzers?
The "other job" that may pay me more may or may not include more job responsibilities, but I can almost guarandamtee you that the other job will not end up being the "same" job.
And then there's the whole question of "pay". How much are some bennies worth? How much is it worth to have a job with a ton of flexibility with start-end times vs. one with real rigid work hours? And if the former is a 60 minute gauntlet of traffic and the other is a 10 minute walk?
A boss who's a dick but makes sure to hire a lot of sharp people? A boss who's a saint but tolerates nincompoops? A closed door office vs. a low-wall cube in a farm? 8 days off you can take whenever vs. 3 weeks that requires D-Day logistics to be able to take a single day?
All of these things jumble together to make the "someone who pays more" concept so untestable that it's hard to measure.