How Much Money do Programmers Really Make?

bigman2003 asks: "ADTmag.com recently released a list of average salaries for IT workers. Usually when I see these lists, I find out that I am grossly below the average salary. But this time I was very surprised to see that I am actually above the average! This is partly because of a recent raise, but it is also because the numbers quoted in this survey are lower than what I've seen the past from other surveys. This report quotes about $56,000 for the average application developer. I am a web developer (sure, laugh all you want) and I wanted to know specifically: How much are other web developers were making? And- How many hours a week does it take you to make it?"

Comments

The more interesting question is

[truckaxle]

How much money will a typical programmers make when the offshore/outsourcing trend levels out matures?

Re:The more interesting question is

[dindi]

outsourcing in costa rica:

well people do not really have their programming needds done here .....

but as a sysadmin (windows) you can make $1500 a month

as unix/networking/firewalls I made around $2500 3 years ago ....

i dunno about programming in general at companies, I did some smaller programming things (mostly php + SQL) on a $50/hour basis (that makes it 8*50*20*12 = $96.000) but I gues sitting in a cube and sometimes coding some crap for someone fro a few days is a different story ....

besides in costa rica you can make a comfortable living on $1500 a month - including a maid so you do not sink in your own filth (I guess danger of IT workers's homes - at least sysadmins I know )

Re:The more interesting question is

[Anonymous Coward]

----
I think developer jobs in the US have been riding a huge bubble for a long time, and will need to fall drastically to compete with overseas programmers. Supply and demand and all that.
----

Only to the extent that a country is limited to the field of computing. If wages fall drastically in one field, workers simply shift into another field. Who is going to work for 30K/yr as a computer scientist when they can make 100K as a ________ (fill in the blank with your own 2nd job preference: biologist, real estate agent, small business owner, beach bum, etc)?

Based on my own personal experiences, I would say that market demand is strong and supply is low. The outsourcing hysteria has already driven computer science enrollment into the dirt. Even schools like MIT and CIT have reported a 40+% drop in CS students. My own school went from 1200 to 800 CS students last year. Appx 90% of whom were undergrads and US citizens (which matters because the defense companies are literally tripping over each other trying to hire CS grads who can obtain a clearance).

I haven't heard the enrollment numbers for this semester yet, but I know that at least 10 additional classes were cancelled due to low enrollment.

And how would I characterize the job market in the area (S CA)? Actually, I would say that it is pretty healthy. Healthiest that I've seen since 2001.
- I was at Unix users group meeting the other night and five people had job announcements.
- One of our competitors has been offering 10K and 15K signing bonuses to our employees.
- We can't fill two entry level positions!
- A recruiter called me out of the blue two weeks ago.

The demand is there - it will be until we are no longer dependent on humans designing and implementing programs, doing research, administering systems, etc.

Given the drastically reduced supply of computer science graduates, the always depressingly low number of US MS and PHD students in CS (personally, I blame sports and MTV), and the healthy demand for GOOD computer scientists, I would say that wages in computer science related jobs are probably going to increase substantially over the next decade.

Also, if there is any bubble around, it is called 'outsourcing', which has been a very hit and miss ordeal for many companies. Everyone knows that companies are reluctant to report a security breach. They're just as reluctant to report an outsourcing failure, if not more so. How do you make the following sound nice... 'Well, first, we laid off 100 people to try and save 500k a year. Then the outsourcing company stole 200k from us. Finally, a disgruntled former employee put most of our source code on the internet. Now we're 2 years behind our competition, who was 2 years behind us last year, and all of our GOOD former employees have already found jobs with other companies.'

Not That Easy

[guaigean]

It's not that easy. Where you live, standard of living costs, specialized training and abilities, years of experience, etc, all influence and alter this. Averages give you an idea, but you have to go on your abilities and what you can find. If you like your job, it often means more than an extra 5-10k per year. I think the real issue here is that people like to know how they rank compared to others, and reality is way to gray for that black & white approach.

Re:Not That Easy

[stupidfoo]

The other problem is that a lot of tech workers don't exactly have set guidelines on what their job requires.

Take my job for instance:
Web CRM Developer/Maintainer (for in house use)
Low-mid level IT Support
Satellite network diagnostics and maintenance
Field work (roughly one week every two months)
Web development

My job title: Jr. Software Engineer (note the lovely "Jr.")
My pay: not enough - but how much should I make? The same as a CRM Developer/Maintainer (I wish), the same as a low level help desk employee (it'd be a raise)?

Re:Not That Easy

[b4k3d b34nz]

I found a cost of living calculator at Salary.com the other day, because I'm looking at moving within a year or two. I currently make a base salary of ~$55,000 as a web developer in Dallas, Texas. Here are some numbers of approximately what I would need to make in various cities across the U.S to be at the same level:

• New York, NY—$103,000
• San Francisco, CA—$97,000
• Boston, MA—$72,000
• Seattle, WA—$68,000
• Philadelphia, PA—$64,000
• Chicago, IL—$58,000
• Atlanta, GA—$57,000
• Miami, FL—$56,000
• Phoenix, AZ—$54,000
• Wichita, KS—$52,000
• Baltimore, MD—$51,000
• Pierre, SD—$47,000

As expected, the cost of living is higher in the big cities, especially in California and New York State. Anyway, I hope this was helpful. The link is below if you want to try it yourself.

http://swz.salary.com/CostOfLivingWizard/layoutscr ipts/coll_start.asp

Re:Not That Easy

[op12]

I think the real issue here is that people like to know how they rank compared to others, and reality is way to gray for that black & white approach.

While true, this reminds me of that study they did recently where they showed that peoples' happiness was more based on relative income than absolute income. Though it should be job satisfaction and the other things you mentioned that really count.

Re:Not That Easy

[chinakow]

I don't need property to know who I am.

Re:Not That Easy

[Deagol]

I can't decide whether this is flame bait or simply a short-sighted comment. Status (for some of us, at least) has nothing to do with property ownership.

Janis Joplin once sang, "'Freedom' is just another word for 'nothing left to lose'". While this is true to some extent, I think that more aptly applies to not being a slave to consumer culture.

In any event, 'freedom' for my family and I means owning our home and reducing our monetary needs to the bare minimum.

That means getting out of debt and staying out of debt. I'm only 33, and have dealt with debt. I cannot stress to you younger folks enough how evil debt is. The only thing you should have debt on is a house and maybe a vehicle.

Own your assets outright, or aim for that as aggressively as possible.

Home owenership has been the best thing for our family. We bought our first home for $85k, and sold it for $115k. Sure, we probably paid $50k in interest during the 5 years we owned it, but that is deductible. Only some states allow rent deductions, and the Fed does not. When we sold, we paid off a number of debts. We then bought a home for $45k (we put $10k down) and are getting ready to sell for $60k. So we'll take that $20k or so in equity and roll that into our next house, which will be in the $50k-to-$75k range. The plan is to pay that down quickly and own it outright in 5 years -- then rent it and move into another similarly-priced home, or perhaps a duplex, then pay that off. Given the rental market, I could "retire" at the ripe age of 43, never having to lift a finger while bringing in at least $2k/month. My family of 4 can easily live very comfortably on that.

Going against conventional wisdom, when I quit my last job, I liquidated my retirement fund (403b, I think, with all proceeds being contributed by my employer). I got dinged on the taxes, but I used that pay off our "retirement" property. If the shit ever hits the fan, my family has a place to go. I also bought and sold a parcel that's paying for itself in a rapidly growing market. While I still owe on it, my buyer is essentially making the payments for me. I netted a few grand (more on potential interest), and the current market is such that if he flakes I'll own a prime piece of development property in an area that's expanding by leaps and bounds.

I've never made an exceptional salary, the peak being $53k and currently at $45k, in a modest employment market. So that should tell you that most anyone can prepare their future on a modest salary if they desire to do so.

While compound interest is a great tool for many people's retirement plans, ownership of land and houses is more secure in my opinion. At the least, you'll have a roof over your head for nothing (excepting taxes), and at best you'll have a passive income. Plus you'll have an assett that you can sell for a large (possibly tax-free) chunk of change, if you need a large wad of cash.

No, it's not about status or knowing who I am. I've never owned a home newer than 90 years, or a car newer than 5 years. I currently own a beat-up '91 sedan, that gets decent fuel economy and results in the smallest tax liability (12 years or older in my state). It's about having assetts at my disposal, and having them work for me.

Engineer

[Anonymous Coward]

Aerospace engineer. Spend 80% of my time programming simulations in C++. Fresh out of college make in excess of 50,000 plus much better than average benefits.

Re:how much am I payed?

[pilgrim23]

You mean they PAY for this? I thought the only renumeration was /. mod points....

I can never figure out what mine should be

[gothzilla]

I'm the entire IT dept. at work. I do it all. Planning, repairs, security, network maint, application support, etc. We have 85 trucks around the nation all tied in with GPS and email. I manage and support the whole damn thing.

I have 25 users and 1 server. When trying to figure out what my salary should be, they never have an entry called "dumbass who takes a job as the entire IT dept."

Does anyone have any idea what someone like that should be making?

Re:I can never figure out what mine should be

[dirc]

The best way to find out what you should be making is to get some job offers from other employers. If you are underpaid, then you will probably not have too much difficulty getting a better offer. This will also give you the opportunity to negotiate, without fear, with your present employer.

On the other hand, if you are better-paid than average, it will be hard to find a better paying job.

One of the best bosses I ever had told me (among other people), "If you don't think you are being paid enough, look for another job that will pay you what you think you are worth. You will soon find out if you are right." I eventually took his advice, got another offer, and my employer countered.

And don't be shy about asking prospective employers for what you think you are worth. They won't hesitate to tell you if your expectations are out of line. If they say "OK" too quickly, you know you set your price too low.

Re:I can never figure out what mine should be

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

Does anyone have any idea what someone like that should be making?

A request to hire a second IT guy. You can't do everything reliably, even if you were paid to do everything.

Re:I can never figure out what mine should be

[sysadmn]

After two to three years making it so complex only you understand it, you can pretty much name your price!

Cost of Living

[Palidine]

How much you make is pretty meaningless without normalizing by cost of living. $50k in Idaho is effectively 2x as much as $50k in San Francisco.

-me

Re:how much am I payed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to be harsh, but learning to spell words like "paid" correctly could probably increase your chances of getting a raise.

Sure, everyone knows what you mean, but in this world you can't just be competent, you have to be seen to be competent.

Re:What does this accomplish?

[pla]

I'm a web developer, doing fine, but I'm not really conformable divulging what I make on Slashdot.


I don't mean this as a personal slam, but that exact attitude keeps salaries low. Why NOT talk about your salary? If you don't talk about it, you can't know how you compare. And although you might not care how you compare in a rat-race sense, you damned well should care that your employer treats you "fairly"...



Me, I make just a hair over $40k. Sound low, for someone with 10 years experience? In my area, I can afford a mortgage on that. And together with my SO, as a DINK couple, we do pretty damned well combined.


TALK about your salary! Don't brag about it, that just sounds obnoxious, but chat. Make sure that neither you nor your friends have gotten royally screwed.


I will never understand people who have this phobia of discussing how much they make. If you make something truly obscene (either minimum wage or seven figures), okay, you might have a reason to shy away from the topic - But within an order of magnitude of "average", help create a basis of comparison! It only hurts us, the workers, to remain tight-lipped about it.

Simple formula

[Average_Joe_Sixpack]

If you quit and are begged/pleaded with to return and are offered a raise then you were being under-paid.

If you quit and leave with a pat on the back then you were being over-paid.

(... bottom line you are just a serf that will live a boring-unimportant-debt-filled life and most likely will welcome death after 30)

Re:Simple formula

[xdroop]

and most likely will welcome death after 30

Absolutely, I would have welcomed death after 30. But you know that after I moved out of my mom's basement, here in the real world things are much better.

Go on, try it.

Life sucks. Get a helmet.

Just to fan a flame

[JanneM]

You are making too much.

You are responsible for the design and implementation of the entire system, and yet you allow a huge, honking unreliable single point of failure that can bring the entire operation to its knees - you. That doesn't smack of good systems design to me.

until you hit 50

[yagu]

I was promoted and promoted, given many salary raises above and beyond, and many bonuses for work above and beyond. While I never asked for my six-figure salary, it was nice to have cuz I didn't have to worry much about financial woes.

Then a small company merged with ours, essentially swaggered in, a (allegedly) corrupt CEO (allegedly) cooked the books, or (allegedly) ordered them cooked, we went $35B in debt, our stock went from $54 to $2 (yes, 1/27th!), and the security unraveled.

No problem, that salary would come in handy now... until some British chick came in, one week on a conference call told us all to get approval before ordering office supplies and in a month or so we would look at our financial "situation".

Two weeks later 1/5 of us did the perp walk... Lost my job, lost the chance to finish the 3 years to full pension (after 21 years with this company). And, finally finding out not many companies want to interview someone that old, or making that much money... Doesn't matter what you've done, doesn't matter how good you are, if you can't even get the interview, salaries you made are only relevant in one way. Bitter? Yeah. Get over it? Yeah, but it's not easy.

A blessing in disguise, I'm now a completely independent software developer and stand to make more than I ever did working for d'man. But a lesson learned. Don't consider your salary in and of itself. Consider the ethics and environment of the company that may screw you (my sense is there aren't many out there anymore that won't.)

Re:well... fuck.

[hoggoth]

> I still can not understand why the average pay of a well-seasoned applications designer is still no match to that of a recently-graduated MBA

That is the attitude of a Computer Science student or recent grad.

Look at any company. Find where the money comes into that company. See how close or far your position is to that money entering the company. That determines your salary right there.

A company doesn't mind paying salespeople (who perform well) plenty of money because it is clear what they are worth. They are bringing in the money that keeps the company alive.

MBAs are closer to the money. They are in a "profit-center" of their companies.

The programmers are pretty far from the money. In most companies they are in a "cost-center", ie: they are a cost that the company grudgingly pays as a cost of doing business. They would be eager to lower that cost.

At one place I worked a few years ago there were programmers who worked in the "back office" servicing the company-wide infrastructure and there were programmers who working directly for a "front office" department, ie: closer to where the money is made. I worked for a front-office department and made $120K for doing the exact same thing programmers in the back office were paid $60K to do.

Just follow the money...

You must do a lotta coke, pal...

[PCM2]

...cuz you're making triple what I make and I live in San Francisco. A 30-year mortgage payment on a $600K house at 8% interest is what -- $4,200? Where's the other $137,000 a year going?

In other words...

[swb]

...you're only worth what somebody else is willing to pay you.

I've heard the same thing from my last employer and while it's hard to disagree with such hard-nosed economic logic, I think it breaks down for a lot of IT jobs because IT jobs tend to be pretty fluid -- they often flow around the rigid HR-type job descriptions. Developers admin systems, admins doing programming, DBAs doing admin tasks AND programming, guys (like the grandparent poster) doing it all. Immersively intellectually challenging work that involves taking calls once a week about spyware and why the Intraweb is down? Or repetitive tasks, but never suffering end-luzers?

The "other job" that may pay me more may or may not include more job responsibilities, but I can almost guarandamtee you that the other job will not end up being the "same" job.

And then there's the whole question of "pay". How much are some bennies worth? How much is it worth to have a job with a ton of flexibility with start-end times vs. one with real rigid work hours? And if the former is a 60 minute gauntlet of traffic and the other is a 10 minute walk?

A boss who's a dick but makes sure to hire a lot of sharp people? A boss who's a saint but tolerates nincompoops? A closed door office vs. a low-wall cube in a farm? 8 days off you can take whenever vs. 3 weeks that requires D-Day logistics to be able to take a single day?

All of these things jumble together to make the "someone who pays more" concept so untestable that it's hard to measure.

Web designer/web developer/network admin $30,000

[spooje]

Well I know this is a national survey and all, but I'll give you a little perspective from Tokyo. Yes, that Tokyo, the once consistantly voted the most expensive place on Earth.

I'm American so when I first got here I got a job teaching English. After 8 months of kids trying to stick their fingers up my ass (it's called "kancho") I decided to get back into design/lite programming/project management. Before I left the US in 2004 I was probably make about $50k/year living in the upper midwest. Pretty good dosh for the area and I was probably working an everage of 2-3 weeks a month.

So getting back to Tokyo, having pretty rough Japanese skills made it tough to find a job, but I finally found my current gig. Basically I'm the technology guy. My title is Director of Internet Development and project management. Sweet huh? Basically I'm making a dynamic catalogue site using PHP and Flash as well as setting up a server and internal network.

How much do I make? About the equivalent of $30,000 US. Basically I'm going into the local convient store at the end of the month with a bag full of 1¥ coins to buy some food. It sucks ass. This is pretty standard for my age, 28, in Japan though. It's assumed that since everyone lives with their parents they don't need to make as much money when they're younger. I got an interview next Monday though, so now that I can speak Japanese I expect to make a better salary.

Re:how much am I payed?

[Anonymous Coward]

May 2004 Metropolitan Area Occupational Employment and Wage Estimates, from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Find your city, find your occupation.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcma.htm

Applicable Occupations:
15-1021 Computer Programmers
15-1031 Computer Software Engineers, Applications
15-1032 Computer Software Engineers, Systems Software
15-1041 Computer Support Specialists
15-1051 Computer Systems Analysts
15-1061 Database Administrators
15-1071 Network and Computer Systems Administrators
15-1081 Network Systems and Data Communications Analysts