Slashdot Mirror
Katrina Delays Shuttle
guildsolutions writes "The scoop on MSNBC has it that NASA will not fly again until next fall. With NASA's reluctance to get back into space, and Hubble dying, We just wonder when private industry will put NASA out of the game."
Ok, I'm really confused. You really think that it was the private sector's job to evacuate New Orleans? How did you come to this conclusion?
If you don't want crime to pay, let the government run it.
... what DOESN'T delay the shuttle? And for those of you who keep fighting the privitization of space with such arguments as "Who would put up telescopes and run pure science research?" The answer to that is NASA- instead of inefficiently and ineffectively blowing billions of tax dollars keeping the wheeles of their wussified, red tape, burocracy running, they could just bid out the launch of their projects to the lowest bidder in the private sector. Ohh.. and while I am venting.. what happened to NASA's hardcore pilots? The kind in the movie "The Right Stuff" and "From the Earth to the Moon?" The people they trot out now to fly the shuttle all look like Volvo drivers.
Actually - in many of the areas along the Gulf you will see that private charity (Baptists, Red Cross, various church /goodwill groups etc) were in the disaster area WELL before the government was!
This is a pillar of the free market/libertarian ideal. People cannot depend on the government to help them, and most, not all but most, of the time it should not be the place of the government to provide support and assistance.
Persoanlly I think that the government did have a duty here and there was obviously a breakdown in the system.
However, in this situation, and many others, it has shown over and over again that people CANNOT depend on the government and SHOULD not.
Free markets, individual freedoms, limited government, and personal responsibility are the most reliable courses of action.
Libertas in infinitum
On one of the Apollo missions (Don't know which one - but no doubt someone here will) the onboard computer went into a "Standby" mode at launch. The Astronauts were just passengers on a rocket that was heading in one direction until someone at ground control told them to flick some switch that brought it back on line.
;)
It was probably where Microsoft got the idea for the blue screen of death.
dnuof eruc rof aixelsid
Why wouldn't it be their job to transport people? They do own the public transporation, don't they? Are you saying we should hand over all control of public transportation to the government? If so, then you are making my point for me.
Look at it this way, if you hand over all control of transportation to private industry, then shouldn't it be their responsibility to transport people efficiently? Isn't this a valid test of the free market? If it isn't, then what is a valid test? The airline industry has been begging for government to lift regulations, and they've gotten what they want, so shouldn't they step up to the plate and take some of the blame? And why is it that these corporations become invisible when they close up shop and leave a bunch of poor people stranded? Why haven't they accepted ANY blame?
The clear agenda of the Bush administration is to downsize government and give huge tax breaks to the well off. What better way to kill NASA than to propose completely preposterous goals like going to Mars, and to delay and starve anything useful, like the planetary missions and space telecopes. The shuttle delays play into that strategy beautifully. I bet there is no rush on the part of the administration to get the shuttle back in service. NASA will slowly wither away.
i agree with you, nasa is getting it done, but it could be done cheaper...
... but even there money shouldnt be wasted ...
:)
... the only problem is where can we get the material for such an artificial mountain ...
ofcourse it seems a bit odd to spare money in areas like space travelling and stuff
i think that private companies doing space flights is a good thing, this will bring nasa "back to earth", at least in the budget dimension.
i'm still hoping they get this space elevator built, so we could get into space much much much cheaper
actually if we would buy 200x200km land and build an 200km high triangle like building on it, we would have the "stairs to space"
nasa won't die (and neither will *bsd and barcodes), no matter if netcraft confirms it.
I'd tell you the chances of this story being a dupe, but you wouldn't like it.
We just wonder when private industry will put Nasa out of the game.
Did anyone else here first read that phrase as "put NASA out of its misery"?
Oddly, when I googled the phrase "put * out of its misery" the first result was about... NASA.
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
According to the ARLA researchers, all you need is a gas cannon to fire a ramjet at the required 400 MPH, the ramjet then carries a rocket to the upper atmosphere and a starting velocity of Mach 5. It should be relatively simple to build a rocket that can start from there and reach LEO.
(Not trivial, but certainly within the capacity of a joint project by amateurs licensed to wield larger rocket motors.)
Ramjet designs are on the Internet - all it would really take is for someone to build one from light enough (but strong enough) material. If you use a liquid hydrogen fuel, rather than normal aviation fuel, you can get ramjets up to about mach 7 or 8.
There are three benefits of this design - ramjets are much more stable than rockets, so easier to build reliably. As this part would not need to leave the atmosphere, it may also be reusable. The second benefit is that ramjets are vastly more fuel efficient than rockets, making it cheaper for amateurs to launch such systems on a limited budget. The third benefit is that jets are more controllable, so a less sophisticated guidance system is needed.
The first stage could probably be replaced with a rail gun/linear motor, as all you need is an initial velocity. The direction is unimportant to the ramjet. An "Air Turbo Ramject", which can handle both subsonic AND supersonic speeds effectively might even eliminate the need for that initial kickstart stage.
Is this a viable possibility? Maybe. Jets work well up to about 30 miles. The "GoFast" rocket, on May 17, 1994, reached an altitude of 74 miles from the ground. Rockets do better in thinner atmospheres, as there is less air resistance and the air isn't needed for anything. It would also be starting off at Mach 6, not from a standstill. So, the combined altitude of 104 miles is definitely a major underestimate of what could be done by amateurs TODAY, no further work needed.
LEO starts at around 125 miles. If we're just adding altitudes directly, we'd be 21 miles short. But we aren't adding them directly, because we've the initial velocity for the rocket and the reduced air resistance. I don't know if these are enough to add 21 miles to the vertical range, but I imagine it would be damn close.
Can we make this a little more definite? Yes. Ramjets work extremely well in a thick atmosphere, but NASA engineers pioneered in the 50s a technique of adding supplemental oxygen to boost the altitude they'll work at. This is why a lot of US spy-planes can operate at the 50 mile range (and so get all those astronaut wings).
So if we revamp the ramjet to use hydrogen fuel, supplemented with oxygen to maintain pressure at high altitudes, we should be able to shift the point of launching the rocket to 50 miles. Furthermore, hydrogen fuel gives you better output on a ramjet, so our starting speed will move from Mach 6 to perhaps Mach 8.
Again, just adding altitudes, we have a combined total now of 124 miles. This is more workable. The initial speed, plus the lower air resistance, only needs to add one mile before we're in LEO. That would seem plausible enough.
At this point, a rocket like GoFaster isn't going to carry communications satellites into space. On the other hand, amateurs - especially amateurs who are open-sourcing their methods and techniques - who reach LEO are going to kick up an unbelievable stink in the space industry. They are going to be seen the same way Linux is seen by Microsoft - an annoying buzz that won't go away, can't be kept away and keeps getting bigger and louder.
All it would take is the sorts of investments comparable to those being put into Virgin Galactic going to amateur rocketry and distributed computing systems for the number-crunching, and
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
As an 'outsider' (european), my view is that NASA has had it's day. Sooner or later ALL state-sponsored enterprises outgrow their usefulness. They become bureaucratic behomoths where individuals are forced to work within a 'system' and as a result innovation dies. Having funding that is based on political fickleness doesn't help either. Take as an example NASA's u-turn on RSVs. The Shuttle has proved that they are viable - and yet NASA are going back to expendable spacecraft - essentially because the funding got pulled to develop a replacement for the shuttle. The only thing wrong with the Shuttle is it's age. If it's replacement programme hadn't been scrapped - we would be seeing the first launch before 2010. NASA should continue to exist - but I think that everyone realises that within 10-15 years - it will be a buyer of space vehicles, not a producer.
You are so clueless.
Height is nothing. These rockets are getting to their altitude and then plummeting back. Yay.
The potential energy at 125 miles is about 1/15 of the kinetic energy required to orbit. You need to figure out how to get that other 14/15 to stay in orbit.
"Ramjet designs are on the Internet - all it would really take is for someone to build one from light enough (but strong enough) material. If you use a liquid hydrogen fuel, rather than normal aviation fuel, you can get ramjets up to about mach 7 or 8."
You idiot. Is this a joke? Aerospace companies have had so many issues with building hypersonic ramjets, and you're suggesting to build one from plans on the internet. Lay off the LSD.
"This is why a lot of US spy-planes can operate at the 50 mile range (and so get all those astronaut wings)."
WTF? Please name these spy planes. The SR-71 has no BS Oxygen supplementation, just jet fuel. And it's the highest flying aircraft.
Perhaps you mean the X-15, an experimental rocket powered "aircraft"? Hmmm, that's not a spy plane and it doesn't use ramjets.
Summary: Stop vomiting up dreams and pretending that you know what you're talking about.
Sewell Auto Dealerships is spending a huge effort to find and relocate all of its employees from the affected Gulf coast regions and their families to Dallas. They have promised the 114 employees equivalent jobs at their other dealerships at the same or better pay rate. When the TV interviewer asked the general manger how much this was costing the company, he looked at her like she was crazy and said, "I don't know and wont even consider it till we know everyone is safe and cared for. These people are our family and responsibility and this is the right thing to do. We'll look at the total impact from Katrina to our business after we've taken care of our people."
Community Coffee Company
Evil Walmart "Any displaced associate can come and work in any other U. S. Wal-Mart store. Thus far, these associates have been transposed and are working from stories as far away as Alaska, California and Nevada, with many more in neighboring states of Georgia, Texas, and Florida. Displaced associates are eligible for up to $1,000 from our Associate Disaster Relief Fund if their homes were flooded or destroyed. We have already provided cash assistance to more than 6,100 associates, totaling more than $3.6 million in associate relief."
Entergy Energy One of the prime electrical and natural gas suppliers to the affected region. " In addition to mobilizing crews and resources for power restoration, Entergy Corporation is also mobilizing to provide assistance for customers and employees whose lives have been devastated by Hurricane Katrina.
The Power of Hope Fund will benefit employees and customers who need assistance in rebuilding their lives after Katrina. The focus of the fund is to help families get back on their feet after the disaster. The fund is being administered through the Foundation for the Mid South. Donors can choose to designate their contribution in one of three ways:
* to help Entergy employees who have experienced losses;
* for general relief/rebuilding efforts in Louisiana;
* for general relief/rebuilding efforts in Mississippi.
Entergy launched the fund with a $1 million contribution. The fund balance stands at $1.4 million."
This is just a very brief list. In short, every single company that I know of that had operations in those areas, and was big enough to still have some sort of operation now, is dedicating at least some major effort at finding and helping their displaced employees. Here in Dallas, many companies are advertising on the radio and TV asking displaced employees to call special hotline numbers setup specifically to help the employees get help and get back to work. Also, there are special job fairs being run specifically for local companies and displaced evacuees to get together. I saw one report where it was estimated that over 800 people had gotten employment at the one in Arlington.
Most importantly, all of these efforts are focused on, and will result in, long term stability and recovery for these people. The FEMA, Red Cross, Salvation Army, etc. assistance, while providing urgently needed immediate aid, is not, and will never, provide for long term self-sufficiency for any evacuees. The only way any of the people affected by the disaster will regain normal lives is by all of the companies stepping up and providing employment for them. The only other option is for all of these people to be on welfare and handouts for the rest of their lives.
"Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
In fifty years, when the historians can make a disinterested assessment and the consequences of Bush's choices are know, it would be a sensible discussion.
Assuming:
1. There are any academic historians left in 50 years after Cato and Heritage (etc.) get through gutting science and academics in this country.
2. Assuming "executive privilege" protected documentation is ever made available. Bush's first official duty was to make sure Bush I's records and documents were never released. Same with Bush II's gubenatorial administration.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Absolutely not. Martial law is not a reaction to natural disasters, at least not in free societies. Its a reaction to open rebellion against the government. You don't send in the army to fight a hurricane.
The only reason relvant to the recent disaster he could use would be the looters/gang violence. However, even if they were determined to amount to a full out state of insurrection as opposed to something that can be handled by the national guard (which the state refused to even deploy), he could not just send in the marines to invade a US city. He would have to call up Congress and get their approval as per the Posse Comitatus Act. Another reason why martial law is not a first resposne to natural disasters and looting.
"I don't see how you can't place the blame for this directly on the Whitehouse."
I don't doubt that there are many things you don't see.
"9-11 would have happened had he been in office for 6 months or 6 years because he was not responding to the threat and this happened because he dismantled FEMA and fucked over every agency that would have responded quickly."
Uhh, he didn't dismantle FEMA, he (or more accurately Congress with his approval, but the division of powers is clearly beyond your grasp) integrated it into the Department of Homeland Security under pressure from leading Democrats. And what other agencies are you referring to? FEMA is the only federal level agency that is even involved, everything else is either state or local.
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.