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Katrina Delays Shuttle
guildsolutions writes "The scoop on MSNBC has it that NASA will not fly again until next fall. With NASA's reluctance to get back into space, and Hubble dying, We just wonder when private industry will put NASA out of the game."
Because private industry did such a great job of evacuating the city of New Orleans before hurricane Katrina. Let's turn over our space program to the free market and see how it handles it.
Does anybody ever notice how whenever the free market fails at something, the government steps in to take the blame, which provides further "evidence" that government is incompetent, which results in further reduction of government services, and more privatization. Then, when private industry screws up yet again, we blame government, and round and round we go. It's a nice circular argument. This is of course the problem with privatization, is that private industry cares about one thing, and that is profit. Markets are horribly inefficient at solving certain kinds of problems, such as the evacuation of the city of New Orleans (or space exploration, unless the only thing we're interested in is sending rich people into space). It would be nice if the free-marketeers in the White House understood this fact.
NASA has done a great job over the many years of it's existence, from the moon missions to designing the shuttle fleets, and various exploratory missions such as the Mars Rovers and the Hubble Telescope. NASA is starting to show it's age though, as lately, private sector seems to be catching up fast... and the question we all want to know, is can NASA keep up with the many contenders currently active out in the private sector, some of which have massive bankrolls available to them, and investors with very deep pockets backing the projects up...
Private Sector has entered the space age, with recent contests, most notable the Ansari X Prize, giving $10 million dollars to the first private space flight to reach into orbit. This prize was won of course by the SpaceShipOne sponsored by Scaled Composites, and has started them on the way to forming "The Spaceship Company"... one of many private sector industries that are sure to bring us some major developments over the next few years, and could very likely take a huge role in future manned space exploration, not just into orbit, but onto surrounding planets as well. The US government may very well be contacting these groups for assistance in the Mar's mission, instead of relying solely on NASA.
It is too early to tell if the damage caused by Hurricane Katrina will place the final nail in the coffin of the government being a contender in the space program, but we know this will help spur private industry even more, to reach into space and take this role into the hands of our citizens, instead of the government. As time goes on, congress may decide that the costs of the space program are too great, having to spend all this money in research and development, especially throwing countless money into finding the source of the foam problems on the external fuel tank for one, as well as many other issues that will need to be resolved if the shuttles continue to fly. Issues that must be resolved, and if not taken care of, could force the shuttle as we know it into an early demise...
Hurricane Katrina may be a blessing in disguise, taking NASA off it's throne, and placing private sector industries in it's place... let's see how everyone as a whole takes charge, and we can all be excited about all the new developments sure to come in the very near future... the space program has always brought new ideas to use by everyone, and this modern "space race" can only bring more and more to the plate...
Only time shall tell...
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When there's a buck to be made at little or no risk. Not before.
We just wonder when private industry will put Nasa out of the game.
When space travel and space telescopes become profitable.
What's the deal? NASA is solely a governemt organization. There's no question of layoffs, economic setbacks, anything. Uncle Sam's checkbook has no limits. The only thing keep shuttles on the ground is... the weather? Please. At least give us something misleading that will defer our curiosity.
I'm a lifelong space buff and even I am starting to think it's time to trash the current system and go with SafeSimpleSoon.com's proposals.
Waiting from September til March to fix a problem is fine, but when you've barely done any work so far on fixing the problem (that I'm aware; I haven't seen any test summaries beyond "we got a few tanks to work on now" hit the specialized news sources), suddenly admitting that you never even really thought March was achievable -- if you haven't done any testing yet and you're already saying a 6+ month delay is going to happen), you're clueless.
I used to say that the time wasn't up for the Shuttle yet. Now given this latest example of incompetence, it's time to move on.
Either that or take a hint from id Software, and just say "When it's done". No false promises. No bullshit.
i am a soviet space shuttle
My advice? Stop work on the ISS, buy some Soyuz spacecraft to service it through the end of its tortured life, and spend the money that would have been spent on the Shuttle for a replacement system.
If you don't want crime to pay, let the government run it.
They're called the transportation industry, i.e. bus, trains, and airplanes. The last two were started by gravy train government subsidies. However, when they are needed, they bail and close up early, leaving the majority of poor people, and even some well-to-do stranded. At least you see government pretending to take some blame. They're doing a terrible job of it, becuase the conservative administration doesn't take responsibility for much of anything, but the corporations, well, they're invisible. In fact, if you watched CNN's footage of looting, you would think that walmart was the biggest victim in all of this.
Leaving these problems up to industry is not the answer. The reason, it's obvious, because industry doesn't care about poor people.
And now they are blamming Katrina. It took ages between recent few launchings.
With NASA's reluctance to get back into space
So being cautious is now a reluctance to go into space? Maybe they don't want to kill another seven astronauts? They are probably quite expensive to replace.
I would think that NASA want to be in space, as much as possible, but they are being careful because they figure that their last act of absolute incompetence put them on notice. They know that they have to be careful - or their funding will dry up because of the outcry that would result from being stupid enough to not do something as simple as "look at the wing".
dnuof eruc rof aixelsid
Our market system discourages anything but profit, and I don't see any corporation or consortium spending the kind of money that NASA spends, until there is a easily exploitable resource for them to take advantage of.
Yes, Virgin Spaceways (whatever it's called) will do their thing with ballistic shots, and very probably orbital shots someday as well.
But full-on space programs will be something that only governments will fund for a long time.
Certainly MS could fund a small space program... who knows, maybe Paul Allen can talk Bill into something like that.
Ignore Alien Orders
How many low-income workers are still getting paid by their supposedly uncaring employers? I've heard countless stories of compassion by employers both large and small. They don't do it out of guilt, or shame, or because it's going to make them money. They do it because they value their workers as human beings.
If you don't want crime to pay, let the government run it.
Actually - in many of the areas along the Gulf you will see that private charity (Baptists, Red Cross, various church /goodwill groups etc) were in the disaster area WELL before the government was!
This is a pillar of the free market/libertarian ideal. People cannot depend on the government to help them, and most, not all but most, of the time it should not be the place of the government to provide support and assistance.
Persoanlly I think that the government did have a duty here and there was obviously a breakdown in the system.
However, in this situation, and many others, it has shown over and over again that people CANNOT depend on the government and SHOULD not.
Free markets, individual freedoms, limited government, and personal responsibility are the most reliable courses of action.
Libertas in infinitum
It won't be private enterprise that makes NASA irrelevant. It will be the Chinese.
Not a chance in the next decade. The space elevator has the best chance of meeting these goals, and it's still just an idea.
Yes, there are occasions where government provided solutions work better than private industry solutions. Thats why anarchy is not a very popular form of government nowadays. Evacuating an entire town before a hurricane strikes is one of those situations, which is why that is the responsibility of the local and state governments, not private transportation. Why you then try to blame the private companies is beyond me. And what the fuck you think this has to do with the space program is an even bigger mystery.
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
Is this a good way to spend money? If it were my money, rather than having spent it return to flight for a program which is almost dead, I would have spent it on something with a future. Rather than trying to patch up a system which never came close to delivering on its promises I would have spent it on a new system, that learned from the mistakes of the old system.
In the case of New Orleans, the required investments in levees have consistently returned large benefits to the society. Because of the excellent location of the city, it was an efficient hub for shipping that benefited not just the Mississippi River basin, but the entire nation, and even the world. Sure, other ports exist and competed with New Orleans, but the city's ongoing prosperity was proof of how it contributed to the prosperity of all the other communities that helped pay the taxes that maintained the levees.
In the case of NASA, the people who talk about privatization are consistently clueless about the real numbers involved. Actually, this is also complicated by the fact that most of the return on space exploration is in the form of knowledge that has no short-term market value that could attract investors.
However, both New Orleans and NASA are suffering from the side effects of incompetent leadership at higher levels. Some of them are faith-based fanatics who can't deal with the complexities of the real world. Others are short-term profiteers whose only real mission is to steal as much money from the government as possible. A few of them even have delusions of recreating the Holy Roman Empire.
Whatever. For all of them the same response is appropriate. As Rocky said to Bullwinkle, "That trick never works."
Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
*bashes head on table*
I always hate it when people say that NASA should be on its way out, and private industry should take over. NO! Failures! F-! Private industry is out looking for profit, finding a dollar in something. If there isn't a dollar to be earned, they won't be in business very long. Private industry isn't interested in furthering the field of science, they don't care too much about contributing to the knowledge of mankind. This is why we need NASA-- to make scientific breakthroughs that are available to ALL for (ideally) noble causes.
Quickly sidestepping too much politics, NASA embodies what the government should spend its money on (yes, improving infrastructure of the country is important, but I'm sure there's a lot that the government shouldn't spend money on *cough*war*cough*). NASA is set up to do wickedly expensive, yet groundbreaking research which can be useful 30+ years down the road-- very few companies would make such an investment. It's the department that's set up to be the exploratory fleet of our time. Who else would put a couple of rovers on Mars? Where's the profit in that? We got tons of scientific benefit from it, and I think we all can concur that it was a damn good thing that we landed on Mars and scouted the area. What motivation would private industry have to do the same?
I agree that currently NASA is kind of a broken department. Politicians are more interested in financing bridges named after themselves and whatnot than advancing science. Society today is more interested in what some celebrity ate for breakfast than science. It's a damn shame too! Look, what NASA needs is a bit of a reorganization, a shakedown if you will. They need to get back in gear, and instead of being a political lapdog, they need to get back into their R&D groove. You can't argue that they've done great things in the past. Currently, they've got some of the best damn brains in the country. They were able to hit a friggin comet with satellite! I say that we throw more money into NASA, and tell 'em to make something of it. Make a new shuttle! Find a way to setup a moon base, or mine the moon for materials. Push further into ramjet/scramjet research. There's so much that they can do, we just need to let them do it.
Please, realize that NASA is not a detriment to the country. It's done a lot of great stuff, and has the potential to do a lot more. If you privatize all of NASA, science will be set back many, many decades.
Lockheed Martin Katrina Response
As a weekend help desk guy, I personally have had 3 calls from people out there: 2 of them were living out of hotels. Any time one of them calls up, my coworkers and I give them priority: we couldn't imagine being in their shoes right now. They're still trying to figure out where everyone's gone. Employees from other states are going there to help out their relatives & bring them back with them. They know the "ET" is important. But right now, many don't even have homes.
American Red Cross
You may even want to find out if anyone in your area is matching donations. I heard Albertsons was.
Life is irony, and nothing ever goes as planned.
The idiocy of that statement is so profound, I can only attribute it to higher education. You must have gone to college to write something so moronic (1).
You realize that about 90% of the work done by NASA is actually done by NGOs, right? Boeing, Lockheed Martin, USA and a whole lot of other contractors do all of the actual grunt work. The overwhelming majority of work done for NASA is done by the private sector. It has been forever. NASA basically just manages what is done. The reason that NASA is having a hard time with space flight is that we're still in space flight's infancy, and space flight is fundamentally challenging. It's difficult to get people and materials off this rock we call home, and more difficult to get them back.
(1) Penn & Teller: Bullshit! Season 2 Episode 1: Peta.
I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
And the original astronauts didn't all look like cookie-cutter poster boys for Volvo?
High n tight military haircuts, mid to late 30's whiteboys. The epitome of safe n sane. The actual hardcore fighter pilots, like Yeager, didn't make the cut.
If there was no NASA everyone would be clamoring for such an organization. While it might be mismanaged in peculiar ways as is expected of a government bureaucracy it is doing a job that private industry is not going to do. NASA funds and facilitates all sorts of blue sky research all over the country. Not only is this true of NASA but also NIST, the NSF, NIH, in some cases DARPA, and several other agencies. Open ended research is important because it expands our whole body of knowlege, it doesn't necessarily lead to marketable products. When Dupont and Pfizer fund research they're looking for a payoff because they're looking to drive a profit, government funded research doesn't even have to break even.
Private industry is only going to explore space if there's a dollar in it. Scaled Composites and Virgin envision space tourism while other companies are looking towards resource mining. Boeing isn't launching probes to the outer solar system for the benefit of all mandkind, they're building satellites for DirecTV to pump more channels of HD video into televisions. While Boeing or Scaled Composites might contract for NASA or other research organizations they're not going to initiate the explorations altruistically.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to generate a profit, it drives people to work harder and become more creative. There's also nothing wrong with diverting tax dollars into blue sky research. NASA needs to rethink the ISS and SST programs. The ISS is never going to do us any good if it's only manned by babysitters rather than researchers. The shuttles aren't terribly useful if they're only being used as extremely expensive construction rigs and aren't launching with any sort of regularity.
What NASA's spending $1bn a pop on can be done far more efficiently with heavy lift vehicles that don't need to use up payload weight on wings and crew compatments. Crews can be sent up in capsules that aren't wasting payload weight on empty cargo bays and unpowered engines. A larger fleet of cheap less flexible vehicles seems like a step backwards but in the long run it ends up being far cheaper. Say you need a large crew to do EVAs to put together a large habitat for the ISS. Two crew vehicles can be launched from different pads (say KSC and Vandenberg AFB) while the habitat module could be launched from another location entirely. A construction crew doesn't pack everyone and their equipment into a single huge truck that can barely fit on the road, they take a couple different specialized vehicles to the site and the crew shows up after picking up coffee.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
I always hate it when people say that NASA should be on its way out, and private industry should take over. NO! Failures! F-! Private industry is out looking for profit, finding a dollar in something. If there isn't a dollar to be earned, they won't be in business very long. Private industry isn't interested in furthering the field of science, they don't care too much about contributing to the knowledge of mankind. This is why we need NASA-- to make scientific breakthroughs that are available to ALL for (ideally) noble causes.
:)
This is absolutely false. Not all private organizations are for-profit -- non-profit organizations are private as well! There is indeed a market for "unprofitable" research, just as there is for charity and other activities. The market consists of people like you (and many other commenters) who are eager to fund space exploration, disaster relief, homeless shelters, etc.
The advantage to you, as a "consumer" of space exploration research, is that you can choose among many companies to get the most bang for your buck. Think company X gets the job done better than company Y? Give to them instead. Prefer unmanned expeditions to Mars colonization? There could be a niche for that, too. Even without a profit motive, this market would force non-profits to compete with one another, become more efficient, and meet market demand. With the government monopoly, however, there's no competition and little accountability. If you like space shuttles and NASA decides to scrap the program -- well, you can't take your money elsewhere. You're just S.O.L.
If I still haven't convinced you that private industry is interested in science -- well, I guess I'll just get back to working on my PhD at a private (non-profit) university, funded by a private fellowship.
Cheers,
IT
Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.
Actually free markets enable class mobility. With a highly regulated market, it makes it harder for smaller and sole proprietorships to cut through all of the regulations and start-up. Big business likes big government because they can buy laws. We are seeing this situation play out currently.
I agree that our individual freedoms are being eroded away with time by the government. We have inalieble rights which are not given to us by the government, but rather secured by it. Thus having a smaller government doesn't allow it to be used as a tool by the wealthy to swing things in their favor.
In this country, the US, it is not the government's job to protect people from different classes.
Do you realize that our most transformative era in US history was when the government took a lazie-faire attitude? This allowed the industrial revolution. Granted there were signifigant abuses that came about during that time period, horrible working conditions, child labor, pathetic wages, etc. However the people began to form unions which was the counter balence. The government had no place. Honestly any basic college economics course will explain that the market always attempts to equalize under free conditions. Imposing artificial restrictions tend to foul the system and prohibit the attempt of equalization. The misnomer of "price-gouging" comes to mind.
If you really believe everything you just posted then you have indeed fallen into the trap and mental illness of modern day liberalism. You have been listening to people cry this dogma of self helplessness for way too long and apparently have succumbed to the class warfare farce.
So I say, pull your brain from your bleeding heart and make some intelligent statements which are not an us vs them, good vs evil, right vs wrong scenario. How about some basic proven economics, social sciences, and most importantly logical and rational thought?
Personally I am not conservative or liberal but embrace libertarianism. I also find classical liberalism interesting. And if you must know I am living below the poverty line at the moment (just graduated college) but I am in business for myself and within 5-10 years will be earning above average income. The government, local, state, federal, is making it harder and harder for me to operate without an attorney, tax consultant, accountant, etc due to the sheer mass of regulations that must be followed. This is what I mean by class mobility.
Libertas in infinitum
You forgot to add "criminals" in the list of those left behind. Who would have anticipated that the criminal element in New Orleans would have been so ridiculously viscious in their attacks on rescue workers? Who could have foreseen that a rescue helicopter would have been shot at, or that the hospital would have come under gun fire, or that the Army Core of Engineers would also be attacked? These mutant lowlifes did much to complicate the rescue effort and prolog the sufferings of innocents. When police arrived in the Superdome, they were beaten back by a mob. What the hell sort of response is that? Even after the National Guard moved in, criminals were ransacking New Orleans department stores for their merchandise (not for food or water) and setting buildings on fire.
There seems to be a lot of pointing the finger at the federal government. But the one man who may deserve a large part of the blame is Ray Nagin, the mayor of New Orleans. Andrew Bolt wrote in the Herald Sun (at http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_pag
How many low-income workers are still getting paid by their supposedly uncaring employers? I've heard countless stories of compassion by employers both large and small. They don't do it out of guilt, or shame, or because it's going to make them money. They do it because they value their workers as human beings.
Care to provide some links? Because when I turn on the TV I see people (a lot of them middle classers) in line to get food stamps -- not in line at the local ATM machine because their lovely employer is still sending them direct deposit every two weeks.
That said, any employer who is still playing their people most likely had business interruption insurance that covers salaries. Kudos to them for thinking ahead but they don't get good karma for it.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
As far as space efforts are concerned, private sector is going nowhere within our lifes. I've been hearing this wishfull thinking for a *long* time already, without seeing any real advances. The failures, on the other hand, include at least Delta Clipper, Kistler, and Beal. SS1 is a nice stunt, though, but it's still *far* away from being of any real sigificance.
Agreed. And I don't know about you but I'm getting sick and tired of hearing people around here berate NASA all the time. Do you really want to see our future in space handed over to for-profit companies? Do you want to see the Halliburton's of the World controlling the future of the human race?
NASA took us to the Moon, they gave us Hubble, the Mars Rovers, etc etc. If you want to see them stop acting like a bureaucracy then I suggest you convince your fellow citizens and Congresscritters to stop trying to pull their funding anytime a shuttle hiccups or a probe crashes. I suggest you convince your Congresscritter and President to give them a real mandate and some funding.
With what we are spending on Iraq we could finish the ISS, save Hubble and have our CEV to go to Mars.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
And government does? That's a laugh. Government is by far the biggest exploiter of the poor. At least private industry represents a choice that can be refused; government simply exploits the poor by force.
And still money left to throw a really big party when the astronauts come back. But all of that isn't anywhere near the top of the priorities list.
OK, resolved, the fabled "system" failed with Katrina and there's plenty of blame to go around, public and private. It shook us up, and every thread seems to return to this. But the original thread was what Katrina means for NASA and what the delays mean for public vs private space.
The crushing news from TFA for us spacers is that the Space Shuttle not only won't be operational for awhile, but it never really was. Evaluated as a flight test vehicle, it is a complete failure. Not only has it fatally crashed twice in only 114 flights, but NASA's detailed models failed to predict the fluid dynamic environment on Discovery's external fuel tank where unexpected amounts of debris fell off, despite over two years of effort.
Any astronaut will tell you that we'll really miss the Shuttle when it's gone because it does so many things. And that's what's wrong! It was originally designed to accommodate a bewildering variety of exotic missions, such as snagging military satellites in truly funky trajectories. Profitable transport, on the other hand, depends on reliability and safety. Aircraft companies deliver this at reasonable cost by minimizing the number of flight profiles, each of which must then pass (not just survive) hundreds of instrumented flight tests before the vehicle can take paid passengers.
The private passenger space startups are looking at more expense than most people figure, because (among other reasons) with flaky fluid dynamics models, they'll need to do more expensive full-scale ballistic tests. These high costs will really give them incentive to build their systems (with appropriate aborts, natch) end-to-end around a single flight profile at first. And their hardware probably won't come from contractors in 48 states.