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Black Hole in Search of a Home

jose parinas writes "Interesting news from the ESO observatory on Paranal about black holes that travel. From the article: 'For 19 of [the low redshift quasars], they found, as expected, that these super massive black holes are surrounded by a host galaxy. But when they studied the bright quasar HE0450-2958, located some 5 billion light-years away, they couldn't find evidence for an encircling galaxy. This, the astronomers suggest, may indicate a rare case of collision between a seemingly normal spiral galaxy and a much more exotic object harbouring a very massive black hole.'" More from the article: "Has the host galaxy been completely disrupted as a result of the collision? It is hard to imagine how that could happen. Has an isolated black hole captured gas while crossing the disc of a spiral galaxy? This would require very special conditions and would probably not have caused such a tremendous perturbation as is observed in the neighbouring galaxy. Another intriguing hypothesis is that the galaxy harbouring the black hole was almost exclusively made of dark matter." Update: 09/17 00:15 GMT by Z : Edited for clarity.

115 comments

  1. Shiznit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Hope that doesn't happen to the milky way.

    1. Re:Shiznit by thorgil · · Score: 1

      You do know Andromeda is coming, do you not?

      --
      Warning: This sig contains a small bug. ==> *
    2. Re:Shiznit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but black holes can only be seen by observing the movement of bodies in their vicinity. so i move that the 'researchers' are talking crap :)

  2. dark matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is that the explaination for everything these days? "hmmm that can't be right... lets blame it on Dark Matter!"

    1. Re:dark matter by tloh · · Score: 1

      You forget we also has this new thing called "dark energy" we can also blame now for that which we don't yet understand. Seriously, though, no one is fooling themselves that it really *is* dark matter for certain. The article itself refers to the idea only as just a "intriguing hypothesis". It's hard to apply constraints and rule out options when so little is known.

      --
      Stay sentient. Don't drink bad milk.
    2. Re:dark matter by Markus+Registrada · · Score: 2, Funny
      It's pretty clear the "dark matter" reference was just pro forma compliance with Astronomers' Union regulations. From the brochure:
      It's so embarrassing to be censured by the Union for leaving mention of dark matter out of one's press release, when it's so easy to drop in. It's not as if "dark matter" (or "dark energy", not yet required!) has any awkward properties to conflict with one's speculations. Even though one's own hypothesis may actually agree with observations and not need shoring up, just mentioning dark matter may help other astronomers who are not so fortunate. Please be considerate.
  3. Hello? by DoubleEdd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Could the moderators check the grammar before submitting?

    20 20 sounds like the results of an eyesight test, and ' found that for 19 of them, they found,' - what?

    1. Re:Hello? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Seconded. Slashdot moderators, stop being horribly imcompetent!

    2. Re:Hello? by confusedneutrino · · Score: 1

      It made me think it maybe may have been a an article on quantum mechanics of quantum...

      --


      --RIAmAses! Let my MP3ople go!
    3. Re:Hello? by IWannaBeAnAC · · Score: 2, Funny
      The very sad thing is, the mistakes were introduced because someone mistakenly thought they actually knew the English language, and edited the original article.

      An international team of astronomers [1] used two of the most powerful astronomical facilities available, the ESO Very Large Telescope (VLT) at Cerro Paranal and the Hubble Space Telescope (HST), to conduct a detailed study of 20 low redshift quasars. For 19 of them, they found, as expected, that these super massive black holes are surrounded by a host galaxy. But when they studied the bright quasar HE0450-2958, located some 5 billion light-years away, they couldn't find evidence for an encircling galaxy. This, the astronomers suggest, may indicate a rare case of collision between a seemingly normal spiral galaxy and a much more exotic object harbouring a very massive black hole.

    4. Re:Hello? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ummmmm, actually the word you are looking for is UNcompetent.

    5. Re:Hello? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Well, Slashdot moderators just rolled up a beta testing for their new method: Distributed Simian Grammar Checking... :P

  4. Ah.... by mdionne81 · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Star Jones

  5. adoption by LiquidMind · · Score: 5, Funny

    I volunteer to adopt it, I think it would make a great companion plus the added perk of being an infinite power source.
    *rolls up newspaper* but if it starts behaving badly, we're gonna have a problem.

    --
    This sig contains repetition and redundancy.
    1. Re:adoption by EvilMonkeySlayer · · Score: 2, Funny

      Unfortunately it's super massive and eats anything that's near it.

      Sounds a lot like an ex-girlfriend.

    2. Re:adoption by Triple+Click · · Score: 1

      But think of the money you'll save on grow lamps!

    3. Re:adoption by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Seriously though, put a turbine outside of a black hole, and as everything is sucked into the blackhole, electricity is generated. The turbine wouldn't fall into the blackhole as it would be a big ring/sphere all the way around.

      My plan is absolutely flawless.

      On another note, how on earth does Zonk get work on this site? Is he sucking off the owners?

    4. Re:adoption by whovian · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't mind having a spare power source for my Type 40.

      --
      To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
    5. Re:adoption by Kaptain+Kruton · · Score: 1
      I like to stick in my $0.02 when ever I can. :-)
      "Seriously though, put a turbine outside of a black hole, and as everything is sucked into the blackhole, electricity is generated."
      I must point out that time is relative and (from our perspective) time appears to slow around a black hole. Would that not drastically reduce the usable amount of power for those away from the blackhole?
      "My plan is absolutely flawless."
      So am I.
      -Kruton
    6. Re:adoption by netwiz · · Score: 1

      I must point out that time is relative and (from our perspective) time appears to slow around a black hole. Would that not drastically reduce the usable amount of power for those away from the blackhole?

      You're absolutely correct. The time distortion does reduce the available power. The sheer magnitude of the forces, however, makes up fantastically for the temporal effect. In fact, tidal forces at decent proximity to the event horizon will make protons and neutrons flow like water (the quarks and gluons in some cases as well...)

    7. Re:adoption by Xilman · · Score: 2, Informative
      In fact, tidal forces at decent proximity to the event horizon will make protons and neutrons flow like water (the quarks and gluons in some cases as well...)

      Only for sufficiently small black holes. There is nothing locally special about a region near the event horizon. If the BH is big enough, 100M solar masses say, the tidal forces at its event horizon are small enough to let an astronaut pass through it without ill-effect. The same can not be said of the experiences encountered much closer to the singularity.

      Paul

      --
      Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate
  6. Stephens theories,.... by crkpot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I would be interested in how this data applies to the Stephen Hawkings theory of radiation expelled at the end of a Black hole - his come-back theory that everyone is still waiting to hear about. Dark Matter though compelling leaves us with more questions than answers.

    1. Re:Stephens theories,.... by Tango42 · · Score: 2, Informative

      You mean Hawking radiation? From what I remember, Hawking radiation is inversely proportional to the size of the black hole, so the radiation emited from a supermassive black hole like those in Quasars is almost non-existant.

    2. Re:Stephens theories,.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought Hawkin Radiation wasn't just "radation expelled at the end of a black hole", but the radiation slowly expelled over time causing the black hole to just "evaporate".

    3. Re:Stephens theories,.... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      No, Hawking radiation involves virtual particle pairs being created near the event horizon of a black hole, just as such pairs are created all the time everywhere (related to quantum physics and indeterminacy, this stuff is fun to work on but tricky to keep straight without hard math). But so close to the black hole, one member of the pair gets pulled in and the other does not. The result is that the member escaping removes energy from the system of the black hole, and the smaller the hole, the more likely such pairs are to be created with one half sucked in and the other not sucked in. The result is that like a lightbulb burning out, the black hole radiates more and more of its own energy as it gets smaller, which is why there aren't lots of small black holes left from the creation of the universe.

      But big black holes, such as quasars are suspected to be, radiate energy from nearby matter being pulled in, spun up to ridiculous speeds by the spin of the hole, ripped apart by tidal forces, smashed into other matter as it approaches, and generally turning into fuel for incredibly intense radiation. The more matter fed to it, the brighter it gets, and such matter prevents the black hole from evaporating unless it goes on a serious diet for many, many billions of years.

    4. Re:Stephens theories,.... by Tango42 · · Score: 1

      So actually, that's "yes", not "no". Just because the GP wasn't very detailed doesn't make it wrong...

    5. Re:Stephens theories,.... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      No, it means no. Please re-read the post asking if this data applies to Stephen Hawking's theories about black hole evaporation. This data does not apply to Hawking's fascinating models because the black holes theoretically involved in quasars are much, much, much too large for the trickle of energy radiated by what Hawking described as the "temperature" of a black hole to be remotely noticeable or have any effect within the expected lifetime of our ability to observe it.

    6. Re:Stephens theories,.... by Tango42 · · Score: 1

      You didn't reply to that post though.

  7. My first thought.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...was "Let the damn goatsx guy go homeless. Why should I care?"

  8. I'll never sleep again by Eradicator2k3 · · Score: 5, Funny

    "...a much more exotic object harbouring a very massive black hole."

    This brings Uhura's "exotic" dance in Star Trek V to mind.

    --
    Mr. T pitied this fool on 27 July 1992.
    1. Re:I'll never sleep again by wilgaa · · Score: 0

      OrStar Trek 1's Vger probe....

  9. Oh sure.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    You let one in and there goes the whole neighborhood!

    1. Re:Oh sure.... by rubberbando · · Score: 3, Funny

      LOL...You are so spacist...

      --
      DEAD DEAD DEAD DELETE ME
  10. That was quick. by yossarian+dent · · Score: 1
    From the article: 'Astronomers investigating 20 20 low redshift quasars, found that for 19 of them, they found, as expected, that these super massive black holes are surrounded by a host galaxy.

    Well, it's nice to see Slashdot editors actually implementing one of the community's ideas. Some suggested that submitting test phrases to /. would be the way to get started; it's only been two days, and already the software seems to be going into production. Of course, it'll be awhile before the program gets out of beta, but still, kudos to the /. editors for acting so quickly.

    --
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  11. Article summary by jaymzter · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Astronomers investigating 20 20 low redshift quasars, found that for 19 of them, they found, as expected, that these super massive black holes are surrounded by a host galaxy.

    Definitely a case of grammatical structure in search of a home!
    --
    If thou see a fair woman pay court to her, for thus thou wilt obtain love
  12. i for one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    welcome our black hole throwing overloads...

    its all fun and games untill someones galaxy gets hit with a black hole...

    1. Re:i for one... by wilgaa · · Score: 0
      Or your Star Tek Overlords...

      Beam me up, Scotty!!!

      PS: Does Star Trek One and 'Vger' ring a bell?

  13. I've seen something like this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Has an isolated black hole captured gas while crossing the disc of a spiral galaxy?

    If it's anything like my uncle, it doesn't capture gas, it releases it... in large quantities...

  14. Gotta say ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not gonna lie, this kind of stuff kind of scares me. Colliding black holes, black matter, etc. No sir, I don't like it.

    1. Re:Gotta say ... by Trip+Ericson · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, it was much simpler when everything was just God's will.

    2. Re:Gotta say ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, men of science have discovered things that Man was Not Meant to Know and have gone insane. Famously, Albert Einstein doused himself with gasoline and set himself on fire upon maknig certain discoveries still unknown to the luckier people he left behind.

    3. Re:Gotta say ... by glitch23 · · Score: 0

      Yeah, it was much simpler when everything was just God's will.

      I must have missed the memo. When did things *stop* being God's will? Everything still is God's will.

      --
      this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
    4. Re:Gotta say ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      When did things *stop* being God's will? Everything still is God's will.

      Which one's? I prefer Zeus!

    5. Re:Gotta say ... by danila · · Score: 1

      Interestingly, as I learned from "The Science of Creation" lecture (Lecture 20 of History Of Science - Antiquity To 1700 by Lawrence Principe from the Teaching Company), theologians circa 13th century considered "It's God's will" a cop out. At that time studying Creation was a reputable endeavor in natural philosophy, trying to construct a system that makes sense and doesn't rely on God's intervention much. Sadly, modern creationists are worse than those from Dark Ages...

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
    6. Re:Gotta say ... by glitch23 · · Score: 0

      You must be a Greek pagan if you prefer Zeus.

      --
      this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
  15. Just not in my neighborhood. by wheatwilliams · · Score: 1

    And not in my backyard.

    1. Re:Just not in my neighborhood. by mhearne · · Score: 1

      Yes, before you know it, there will be all sorts of orphan planets and dark stars hanging around, doing absolutely nothing useful.

      Believe it or not, Jay Leno just mentioned this story on his late night show (9/16). Astronomy is not his usual subject matter, to say the least.

      Michael

  16. All speculation from the religious high council by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like lots of uhm, we don't really know, but we can guess, and it's like uhm, scientific and stuff since we like, got our PhD's, and we have expensive toys and stuff. Oh the grand religious order of science. Tell me what does God have to say about this? Oh depense to me my reality from the high academic papal order. Ah we are in Virgo. What does that say about wandering black holes and quasars?

  17. Why couldn't it have by geekoid · · Score: 4, Interesting

    just 'consumed' the galaxy it started with? sure it would take a long time, but it's probably been there a long time.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Why couldn't it have by forand · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The major problem with having a black hole eat an entire galaxy is conservation of angular momentum.

    2. Re:Why couldn't it have by nes11 · · Score: 1

      i have no problem with it

    3. Re:Why couldn't it have by Bazzalisk · · Score: 1
      Actualy (according to current theories) it would take literaly forever. This is due to the fact that intense gravity causes the same sort of time-dilation effect as high acceleration, resulting in matter which (from the perspective of an outside observer) falls ever more slowly towards the event horizon, without actualy crossing it.

      Maybe. :)

      --
      James P. Barrett
    4. Re:Why couldn't it have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
      The major problem with having a black hole eat an entire galaxy is conservation of angular momentum.

      Bloody EPA gets everywhere!

    5. Re:Why couldn't it have by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      Why is this a problem? Wouldn't it just spin up the hole?

    6. Re:Why couldn't it have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is that stars in the galaxy have no incentive to "get sucked into the black hole": they will continue in their orbits indefinitely, just like the planets in the solar system do about the Sun. (Over some ridiculously long amount of time, friction with the interstellar medium or something might cause their orbits to decay, but that would happen regardless of whether there is a black hole in the center, and would take far far longer than the age of the universe anyway.)

    7. Re:Why couldn't it have by whereiswaldo · · Score: 1

      What do you mean by 'the stars in the galaxy have no "incentive"'? Is the gravity of the black hole not enough to get the stars moving towards it?

    8. Re:Why couldn't it have by Alsee · · Score: 2, Informative

      What do you mean by 'the stars in the galaxy have no "incentive"'? Is the gravity of the black hole not enough to get the stars moving towards it?

      Is the gravity of the sun not enough to get the earth moving towards it? Is the gravity of the earth not enough to get the moon moving towards it?

      Same thing. If there is non-zero angular momentum then gravity does not cause things to fall in, it causes them to orbit. Orbits can only decay and "fall in" if you find some way to bleed of the angular momentum. For example low earth orbit satellites slowly bleed off a little bit of angular momentum and eventually fall down due to the extremely thin atmospheric drag.

      -

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    9. Re:Why couldn't it have by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If there is non-zero angular momentum then gravity does not cause things to fall in, it causes them to orbit. Orbits can only decay and "fall in" if you find some way to bleed of the angular momentum.

      Not true! If the force increases fast enough an object can fall to the centre while conserving angular momentum. The newtonian inverse-square law is not strong enough to do this, but other force laws are, including the gravity of a black hole.

      (NB: the notion of "force law" is problematic in general relativity but nevertheless the black hole solution has a conserved quantity called angular momentum and there are orbits that fall to the centre of the black hole despite the conservation law.)

      I learned this from Misner, Thorne and Wheeler. I'm sure lots of other texts discuss it too: it's not rocket science (not by the standards of eneral Relativity at any rate).

    10. Re:Why couldn't it have by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      Same thing. If there is non-zero angular momentum then gravity does not cause things to fall in, it causes them to orbit. Orbits can only decay and "fall in" if you find some way to bleed of the angular momentum.

      However, if perigee of the orbit is within the Schwarzchild radius of the hole, then the star will never come out again. The orbit does not have to decay; the angular momentum is conserved and is added to the angular momentum of the hole itself.

    11. Re:Why couldn't it have by Alsee · · Score: 1

      The newtonian inverse-square law is not strong enough to do this, but other force laws are, including the gravity of a black hole.

      The gravity of a black hole *IS* inverse-square law.

      As long as you are outside the event horizon then a black hole really isn't particularly different from a Really Big Star. Stars of a galaxy will orbit a giant black hole just like planets orbit a sun in a solar system.

      -

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  18. Uh oh by pmike_bauer · · Score: 1

    ...honey, I shrunk my galaxy

    --
    I read /. for the (Score:-1, Conservative) comments.
    1. Re:Uh oh by GungaDan · · Score: 1

      Ah that droll write-wing wit. ;-)

      --
      Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
  19. Chiral Dark Matter Galaxies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny
    The newest evidence hints that these types of dark matter galaxies are chiral in nature. Recent polarization readings of the detected light show that this quasar may be in a galaxy comprised of approximately 10^42 unmatched left socks. Another recently discovered quasar seems to be in a similar galaxy filled with unmatched right socks.

    Scientists are baffled as to how the different handed socks ended up in completely separate galaxies. However, some have stated that the apparent long-range transport phenomenon does provide hints for the mechanisms behind unexplained sock behaviors in this part of the universe.

    1. Re:Chiral Dark Matter Galaxies by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      The newest evidence hints that these types of dark matter galaxies are chiral in nature.
      So THAT'S where the holes in my underwear came from!

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    2. Re:Chiral Dark Matter Galaxies by Alsee · · Score: 1

      If these sock and anti-sock galaxies were to collide they would annihilate in an explosion with enough energy to tear a hole in the fabric of our universe.

      -

      --
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  20. Dark matter? by bradbury · · Score: 5, Interesting
    An alternative explanation which is seldom discussed is that there could be a completely developed (mature) galaxy composed entirely of Kardashev Type II civilizations, also known as Matrioshka Brains. As was pointed out by Marvin Minsky at the Byurakan CETI conference in 1971 *advanced* civilizations, for thermodynamic efficiency reasons, will radiate their waste heat at slightly above the cosmic microwave background temperature. The VLT and HST which were used in these studies are incapable of detecting radiation at these wavelengths so any galaxies being managed by advanced civilizations would effectively be invisible.

    A reasonable person might well consider an explanation that included the natural evolution of advanced technological civilizations before they resorted to the invention of new particles and laws of physics (as is typically a requirement as soon as you mention 'dark matter').

    It is useful to keep in mind that several papers by Charley Lineweaver's group document that ~70% of the "Earth's" in our galaxy are significantly older than ours (perhaps billions of years older). It would not be that unexpected that from time to time we might encounter a galaxy where advanced civilizations had placed *all* of the reasonably available matter and energy "under management". (For the purposes of discussion we will assume that black holes do not constitute a "reasonably available" useful resource despite proposals from time to time that require rather creative physics to make them "useful".)

    1. Re:Dark matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "...so any galaxies being managed by advanced civilizations would effectively be invisible"
      ..except that the quasar itself was very detectable . That means we're either dealing with (1) an incredibly advanced civilization that for some reason keeps all the radiated energy from everything in their galaxy except the quasar for themselves, or (2) a quasar without a galaxy around it.

      Surely such an advanced civilization wouldn't let all the energy (and it would be quite a lot of energy if we can detect it all the way over here) from the quasar go to waste when they're so anal about the waste heat of everything else?

    2. Re:Dark matter? by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

      Dark matter? (Score:3, Interesting)
      by bradbury (33372)


      You might have a low ID, but I'm guessing you're not Ray Bradbury. (Not that argumentum to eminentum authoritum or argumentum againstum hominem are worth anything, though, but it's still funny.)

      And the reference to some dude at the Bogatonic SETI conference over thirty years ago has a disturbing resemblance to the infamous "Proof by reference to inaccessible literature" found on the classic joke proof list (including such items as "Proof by vigorous hand-waving"): "The author cites a simple corollary of a theorem to be found in a privately circulated memoir of the Slovenian Philological Society, 1883."

      I'm not saying you're wrong (I think you're on to something, but this particular one isn't quite it), it's just that your argument sounds characteristic of traditional weakly-proven quack articles.

    3. Re:Dark matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      > It is useful to keep in mind that several papers by Charley Lineweaver's [anu.edu.au] group document that ~70% of the "Earth's" in our galaxy are significantly older than ours (perhaps billions of years older). It would not be that unexpected that from time to time we might encounter a galaxy where advanced civilizations had placed *all* of the reasonably available matter and energy "under management".

      Bullshi*hey, hang on a sec*

      At ~1% of c, we're talking 500 years to Alpha Centauri. (400 years of travel time, plus 100 years to build two identical colony ships.)

      At ~1% of c, a civilization could colonize a 100,000 light-year wide galaxy in 10 million (1* 10^7) years. If each colony produces only one colony ships per century, humans could do it, and the galaxy would end up colonized even if half these spawned colony worlds had full-blown ecosphere-destroying wars within 100 years of colonization.

      s/Bull/Holy /g

      As in, "Holy shit!"

      It not only isn't much of a stretch to believe that at least one out of several hundred billion galaxies is completely colonized, it's probably a certainty.

      Going from there to a galaxy entirely populated by Type II civilizations isn't much of a stretch. If humanity (yeah, you, me, and the rest of us genocidal maniacs) could pull off galactic colonization starting next Tuesday using technology we invented in the 60s, it's not much of a stretch that at least one (of tens/hundreds of millions) of the resulting colonized worlds would be able to defend itself without destroying itself. (And all they'd have to do is outlast the rest of us, and recolonize the galaxy after everyone else blowed themselves up :)

      A galaxy of Type II civilizations within a billion years may be a practical inevitability within a few generations of the first interstellar colonies.

      Thanks, dude. First reason for optimism I've had about intelligence in the universe in about 12 years. It really does only have to get off its homeworld once. The laws of exponential growth take care of the rest.

    4. Re:Dark matter? by jbrandon · · Score: 1

      The VLT and HST which were used in these studies are incapable of detecting radiation at these wavelengths so any galaxies being managed by advanced civilizations would effectively be invisible.

      We detect quasars because they emit so much damn radiation. We assume this is from the accretion disk around a black hole. Why would such an advanced civilization put out so much usable energy?

      Because you have no clue what you're talking about.

    5. Re:Dark matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely such an advanced civilization wouldn't let all the energy (and it would be quite a lot of energy if we can detect it all the way over here) from the quasar go to waste when they're so anal about the waste heat of everything else?

      Maybe the quazar is their beacon used to guide the travellers of their intergalatic civilization. Or maybe the reason is something totally alien to us. It's like a monkey reading from a news paper that man went to the Moon. But monkeys can't read, nor are we able to read messages of a few hundred million years more developed civilization.

    6. Re:Dark matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might have a low ID, but I'm guessing you're not Ray Bradbury.

      I AM!

      Ray Bradbury

    7. Re:Dark matter? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      One problem - how many people does it take to build a spaceship? Most likely more than would fit inside the ship. So, you need a few generations of growth just to begin construction. And why would people with a perfectly good planet with a Texas-per-person of open space want to get back on a ship for a few hundred years to find another planet which is most likely no better than the one they're already on?

      If people multiplied like rats I could see the colony time being every 1000 years or so, but most likely they wouldn't multiply like rats. 1st world societies are barely at the replacement level - if a planet were colonized with modern Americans or Europeans, it would NEVER grow. Most likely future colonists would be migratory - depete a planet of resources and move on. However, it would not be depleted quickly, since modern societies don't grow all that fast.

      Just a few random thoughts. Who knows how things will really turn out. If we knew we had another planet we could reach in 500 years and had the technology to go there, why would more than the odd explorer bother to make the trip (at least until the early-adopters develop things a bit)? Colonization is a slow process. Early American colonists tended to be driven by persecution from Europe (religious or political) - modern society doesn't tend to have as much of this. Obviously a major famine or something like that would become a big driver.

      Interesting concepts...

    8. Re:Dark matter? by Paranalense · · Score: 1

      I can assure you that VLT is capable of detecting the radiation at almost any wavelenght. VLT (Very Large Telescope) is an Observatory that contains five telescopes, each one with at least two instruments, and every instrument is set to different wavelengths. See more at www.paranal.cl.

    9. Re:Dark matter? by bradbury · · Score: 1

      There are a couple of possibilities. First, if the black hole developed very early in galactic history (before there were any ATC) and accumulated a large amount of very distributed mass it may simply not be worth the expense to try and harvest the mass from a gravity well that deep. Second, because black holes do accelerate infalling matter to such great velocities most of the energy comes off in the UV and esp. X-rays which are very difficult to convert into more usable energy forms. The photons have sufficient energy to break chemical bonds. That requires that one expend a large fraction of the energy collected continually rebuilding whatever collectors you are using to collect it. (Photon energy collectors need to be fairly perfect at the atomic structure level in order to be efficient.) Third, the Black Hole environment has a very effective environmental temperature level. Matrioshka Brains want a very low environmental temperature level (for the thermodynamic computational efficiency reasons) so you have a significant transport problem of the energy from the black hole locality to the probably Matrioshka Brain locality (presumably orbiting the galaxy). Forth, if the Matrioshka Brains have been star-lifting (removing fuel from their star to lengthen its lifetime and burn more of the easily available fuel over a longer period (trillions of years) they have no need for the additional energy resources a black hole might provide.

      One thing to keep in mind with respect to energy is whether or not one has access to enough mass to use it effectively and whether or not there are limits to computing, particularly the speed of light and heat removal constraints that would prevent any additional energy from being used productively.

    10. Re:Dark matter? by bradbury · · Score: 1
      This is such a '60s reply. The days when "people" will be doing things like construction are numbered. Read my Sapphire Mansions paper. By the 2nd half of this century it is highly likely that nanorobots will be performing all of the construction activities. One can consider nanorobots to be like bacteria. If one built self-replication capabilities into them and can supply them with sufficient resources they, like bacteria, could multiply to the mass of the Earth within 2 days. (But anyone who understands nanotechnology well does not suggest nanorobots should be given self-replication capabilities. The conclusion one reaches after reading this paper by Josh Hall is that nanorobots will be built in nanorobot factories which are more efficient (faster).)

      In any case it will not be obsolete humans which go colonizing any stars. It will be complex nanosystems which support either uploaded "natural" intelligences or artificial intelligences or a combination of the two. Ultimately the entire framework that humans tend to view life from is flawed at the levels Matrioshka Brains operate at. Rather than replicate starting almost from scratch (using gametes), advanced civilizations are more likely to divide in half (as cells do). The problem is that due to the large amount of information advanced civilizations will have at their disposal they cannot easily transmit that quantity of information across large interstellar distances. Thus replication will only take place when developed star systems happen to orbit (or be navigated) to within close proximity of undeveloped star systems. Under normal circumstances this is a very slow development process. It is possible however that from time to time that the civilizations of a galaxy might choose to use the "seed" distribution (plant) approach to development, in which case it seems likely that the galaxy would "go dark" much more quickly. That may be the case for the galaxy associated with the "naked" black hole.

    11. Re:Dark matter? by bradbury · · Score: 3, Interesting
      No, I'm not Ray, though I am very distantly related. So you don't feel I'm appealing to "inaccessible literature", I post the following from the source proceedings (edited by Sagan).

      Dyson had made a set of points, one of which was:
      "Point 3. If a society is very highly developed technologically, it must emit intense infrared radiation, not necessarily a planetary spectrum, but necessarily a large intensity of infrared radiation, whether or not this society wishes to communicate. Consequently, we should use infrared radiation, as a signpost indicating priority areas toward which we should direct searches by radio and other techniques."

      There was some discussion which eventually led to the following exchange:

      OLIVER: Why do you suggest civilizations must of necessity produce large amounts of infrared radiation? It seems to me that the infrared radiation that would be produced by even a very much farther advanced civilization than ours would be negligible compared to their primary star. For example, in California, which has a very high usage of electricity, the power generation at the present time is only 0.1 percent of the sunlight falling on the state.

      DYSON: What I am saying is that the civilizations which are observable to us will have this character.

      OLIVER: But you are suggesting, are you not, that the infrared emission will be an observable characteristic? I am suggesting it is far down in the stellar noise.

      DYSON: No, I am saying that the generation of large amounts of infrared radiation is not necessarily an accompaniment of a high civilization at all. Only if it occurs is it something we can see.

      MINSKY: Since radiation at any temperature above 3K is wasteful and a squandering of natural resources, the higher the civilization, the lower the infrared radiation. We should look for extended sources of 4K radiation. There should be very few natural such sources.

      DYSON: I don't quite go along with this but to some extent you are right.

      The reason that Dyson didn't go along with this is because he still tended to view "advanced" civilizations as those operating on the basis of "biological" systems (remember this is 1971!) rather than engineered computational systems which can function at a much wider temperature range (in fact Likharev's "Rapid Single Flux Quantum Logic" (based on Josephson junctions) *have* to operate at temperatures much closer to those Minsky suggests). Thus AIs constructed of such devices would emit IR at a temperatures much lower than "primitive" civilizations (i.e. "wet" brain based) which function at the liquid water temperatures that Dyson tended to prefer.

      The theories behind Matrioshka Brains are in large part based on Minsky's observation, which are in turn related to Dyson's perspective reagarding Dyson "spheres" (really shells). They are however updated to recognize the fact that computational architectures which can support intelligence (and therefore advanced civilizations) can operate over a much wider temperature range (both higher and lower) than liquid water can provide.

      The complete proceedings from the conference can be purchased from Amazon for $3-7.

    12. Re:Dark matter? by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "A reasonable person might well consider an explanation that included the natural evolution of advanced technological civilizations before they resorted to the invention of new particles and laws of physics (as is typically a requirement as soon as you mention 'dark matter')."

      You must be new around here. Intelligent Design is rather out-of-vogue around here right now.

  21. Re:Cry me a river.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Not gonna lie, this kind of stuff kind of scares me. Colliding black holes, black matter, etc. No sir, I don't like it.

    Trust me when I say that there are far more areas of science that are scarier. Quantom mechanics states that there are either multiple copies of us in dimensions or that we can live in a quasi state inbetween life and death. Humans creating black holes providing proof of multiple dimensions. Little teeny tiny particles streaming through your body as you are reading this.
  22. Hmmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is indeed a dark matter...

  23. Wouldn't it be interesting ... by stuffduff · · Score: 0

    If the Big-Bang was discovered to be just a stage in the Steady State Theory?

    --
    "Can there be a Klein bottle that is an efficient and effective beer pitcher?"
  24. Weapons of Mass Annihilation by CDMA_Demo · · Score: 1


    This black hole will bite the hand that feeds it.You are 0wn3d say big black letters for infinite amount of time. Can you imagine what will happen if such a rogue elephant comes wandering in our backyard? We will have much bigger problems to worry about.

    1. Re:Weapons of Mass Annihilation by Nataku564 · · Score: 1

      Actually I doubt we will have much at all to worry about at that point. I dont believe there is much we can do about a singularity wandering through our backyard, especially at our current level of technology.

    2. Re:Weapons of Mass Annihilation by halltk1983 · · Score: 1

      Something like that would be hard to miss. Once the UN *agreed* to do something it would be too late to save ther politicians, but I'd bet on Gates calling up Dell and the Walton family and building cheap rockets to get us out of here, using intel processors, windows vista, and sold at Wal*marts across the world. One could only hope they forgot to svae one for themselves.

      --
      Watch for Penguins, they eat Apples and throw rocks at Windows.
  25. Will it ask for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Social Security?

  26. Re:Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He may be an asshole, but I agree. Microsoft is pretty good these days.

  27. Update: 09/17 00:15 GMT by Z : Edited for clarity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Holy Fscking Shirt! This has got to be a first! A Slashbot actually edited content!

    G f'n D - Hell finally froze over!

  28. Re:Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You got that right, Bill!

  29. Black Hole in Search of a Home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Black Hole in Search of a Home

    Is this a science story or another report from the flooded slums of New Orleans?

    *_rimshot_*

    What? Too soon? OK OK my wife says I'm going to hell but I think its funny.

  30. In a police search a black hole was discovered in by diogenes57 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I read that headline as: a black hole was discovered in someone's home.
    I can imagine the scenario:
    Man: Don't go in there officer, trust me!
    Officer: Are you trying to hide something boy?
    Man: No, it's just that, umm...
    Officer: Well we'll just see about what's behind this door, shall we? ...Noooooooo...being sucked in...force of gravity too powerful...aaaaaaahhhhh!!!

  31. Blackhole... by qualico · · Score: 1

    ...sucks news from /.

    Love slashdot, but digg.com is going to suck this user base dry.
    Not only is this and many other stories old news, you get too much Gay Nigers of America and First Post crap.

    Mod me down, but we are getting to a point of critical mass here.

    1. Re:Blackhole... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL... digg.com... I mean with all 8 messages per topic they're well on their way to sucking this place dry...

  32. Looks like somebody was playing.... by infonography · · Score: 2, Funny

    Hungry Hungry Hippos, and just ran out of stars.

    --
    Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
  33. stargate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some used the stargate to move it

  34. It's that simple. by Hurricane78 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The host galaxy is *inside* the black hole. It got "eaten" completely. To me this sounds pretty realistic if it's a huge black hole...

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
    1. Re:It's that simple. by Vicsun · · Score: 1

      The galaxy couldn't have 'fallen in' the black hole, more than Earth 'fall in' the sun, or the moon can 'fall' on Earth. Unless something has bled all the angular momentum out, galaxies would just spin around the black hole for some time.

    2. Re:It's that simple. by Hurricane78 · · Score: 1

      Constant leaking could lead to this... And as we see it in the universe this could be the normal case. But you're partially right: We can't know it, and there must be some momentum killer for this to happen. (Even if it's only the light-energy and supernova-material from the stars...)

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
  35. "Complete disruption of a galaxy?" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    What if the supermassive black hole was rotating such that it's poles were pointing into the disk of the parent galaxy?

    The artilce mentions that there is eveidence that a companion galaxy has collided witht the quarsar withing the last 100 million years or so (relative to the observation).

    If so, when the collision occured and provided material to feed the quasar, the polar jets would have plowed right into the parent galaxy, and perhaps blowing away the gas in the disk over that 100 million year period.

    Any thoughts on this?

    -- Trent

  36. And the sixth day... by greasy_ass_fart · · Score: 1

    The sixth day God said: let the super-massive black hole swallow this entire galaxy, and he saw it was good.

    1. Re:And the sixth day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      > The sixth day God said: let the super-massive black hole swallow this entire galaxy, and he saw it was good.

      Typo.

      "and He let out a little burp, and said that it was tasty."

      RAmen. Or Cthulhu Fhtagn. I always get those two mixed up. Serves me righ*HOLY FUCKING SHAHHFHHGHHTHTHHHHHHHH*
      NO CARRIER

    2. Re:And the sixth day... by agquarx · · Score: 1
      The sixth day God said: let the super-massive black hole swallow this entire galaxy, and he saw it was good.
      Sometimes we bother. She told me (made me to tell you). Sometimes we bother. Björk, Björk...
      --
      I would like to meet you // In a timeless, placeless place // Somewhere out of cont
  37. Shouldn't we by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shouldn't we at least send one probe at each ends of the black hole and see what really going on. or Send a nuke and see which is stronger. lol

  38. Edited... by SEWilco · · Score: 1
    Edited for clarity.

    Hey, Slashdot has a tradition to uphold!
    Or actually... A reputation to improve!

  39. Re:In a police search a black hole was discovered by PakProtector · · Score: 1

    ZAP BRANNIGAN: Gravity, you win again!

    --

    Edward@Tomato - /home/Edward/ man woman
    man: no entry for woman in the manual.
    "Qua!?"

  40. Google sky? by Coyote65 · · Score: 1

    Is there a web based equivalent for google earth but in the other direction? Where you can zoom in on coordinates and see ever higher resolutions? If not, why the &#%$ not?

  41. Can it be inside- out? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It hurts my head to even think about that.If you could stop movement beyond singularities ,the universe would have to be attracted to it,an increased mass would be observed.This is my abstract view of a blackhole.That would only be true if the universe had no voids, and if it had a minumum speed limit .I have no other way of putting it,sorry.