Slashdot Mirror
A Pay Cut for Personal Growth?
As as follow-up to an Ask Slashdot from earlier this week hatch815 asks: "I have recently been extended an offer to come work as an engineer for one of the internet search companies. In responsibility, this will be a step back, as I am currently in a management role, but as a career direction, it will provide me with unlimited exposure, learning, and advancement. The place where I work now is a small non-IT centric shop. Although I am management, I am at the top of the ladder. The tough decision is the pay decrease I would take if I did take this new position. Is the prestige and exposure worth giving up responsibility? I am too stuck in the big fish small pond mentality? Is going back to the forefront better than the psuedo-management I do now?"
If you are happy with your current position, I'd say stay. If you are yearning to be more hands-on and less managementy, and your lifestyle won't take a major hit by the move, then totally go for it. If you have family to consider, make sure you talk to them about it first, especially if you will have to move / make major spending changes (depending on the difference in pay).
You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
(The Beatles)
Whatever. I wrote a big paragraph on the risk of staying vs leaving.
It comes down to this. You have kids? Stay where you are at. As long as the company is not going to go under anytime soon its not worth putting your family through the stress of you working the ladder again.
This is not a rule just an opion, responses to this can state their own opinion but cannot prove me wrong.
BATNA = Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement
Can you take your extra salary and go get an advanced degree somewhere?
Or max out your 401K and retire 5 years earlier, at which time you can choose to work for yourself?
Or can you work out an arrangement where you take 75%-80% salary for 4 days of work a week? How about EVERY Friday off?
The world will not get better through technology. We must seek to be better people.
I'm currently working out my notice at a software development and management job, and I'm taking a university research post. It pays less, but I don't really need the money, and I know I'll enjoy the research job more. It really is as simple as that. That doesn't make the decision any easier if there are complications - in my case, I have three young children, one of them only a month old, and the new job is a long way away. But stuff like that no stranger can help you with.
That said, TAKE THE INTERESTING JOB AND GET OUT OF MANAGEMENT NOW!
I took a cut to escape management and be on the front lines. At the end of the day, I was more interested in doing the tech role and gaining the approval of technicians and not "suits". Bottom line: what do you love, working with technology or having technology work for you. The former would be the techs, the latter sales & management.
It's all about personal choice. I'm happy with the choice I've made.
Ruby on Rails Screencast
Why don't you stop being lazy and just type "Pay cut for personal growth in Google"
Damn, people just don't know how to research their proble...
<embarassment>
oh, wait...
(come on, you know someone did this
Responsibility:
Top manager at a small shop.
Engineer for one of the internet search companies
To value this situation, first you have to decide how much responsibility both businesses have in the overall scheme of things, then your responsibility in the business.
You are overlooking the potential for pay raises and promotion.
Look at your choice of words: pseudo-management? Is the company you are working for now going to be around much longer? Do you really want it to be around for much longer?
Does the word bureaucrat appeal to you?
How do you relate toHermes Conrad? You have been given a job offer. The terms should be negotiable. If you can't negotiate terms that are acceptable to you, then don't take it.
This is also an opportunity to look at other jobs.
If your current position doesn't make you highly marketable, you'd better find out why not.
I thought I was getting some excellent experience, and I was, but I could have achieved the same result if I'd spent my extra income on some targetted certification. The pay cut just wears at you. I'd recommend confirming this by making an accurate cash flow for yourself. Once you've got your bottom line "I must make this much to operate my household" dollar figure, see if the offer covers that. Then think about how much excess cash is left over for "fun". If there isn't any, it's unlikely to work out.
- Does this new job pay your bills?
- Does your current job offer you a greater sense of self-satisfaction when the day is over?
- Do you like Psuedo Management roles? I personally, do, but it may not be for you.
- Is there room for growth? If you don't like your new job title as well as you could, are there promotion opportunities?
I guess the biggest thing you have to worry about is your bills. Sure everyone likes a fatter paycheck, but all in all more money doesn't make you happy. Money only keeps you happy for a short while, after that happiness expires it becomes a question of personal satisfaction. Without personal satisfaction in your career choice, you're always going to dislike going into work. You're always going to dislike your job.What do I know, though?
Deja Vu
n. 1. The sensation that you've read this very article before.
I've been going out with this one woman, Sara, and I really like her, but recently I met this other women, Gina, and she's really cool too. Which one should I pick?
Find free books.
I'd tend to think that if you are 30-40 go ahead and job hop. It'll be your last move. If you are 38+ with a wife and kids just out of college or entering college, I'd stick with your current job with more money.
If you are 20-30, unmarried without kids, go ahead and switch jobs. You are free at the moment anyway. If you are 18-23 and some how got into the top job, I'd stay there if I were you. But that's me. It's your life; it's your decision; we slashdot posters have our own lifes to play out. Go ahead and just live yours.
Also, don't forget to look at things like benefits (ie, vacation, insurance, 401k, etc.)
...the money will follow.
Two years ago had almost this same decision to make.
I switched. I love it. Now as just a nerd, I make more than I did as the "big fish in the little pond" manager.
*click**beep**beep* Scotty, One to Mod up!
In responsibility, this will be a step back, as I am currently in a management role
That is a stunning statement from my perspective, stunning in the worst possible way. It presupposes that a technical role carries less responsibility than a managerial one, which is a terrible indictment of how you perceive relationships in the workplace. It certainly doesn't reflect my approach to responsibility in software and systems engineering in any place where I have worked professionally.
Perhaps it reflects the outlook of some hypothetical 9-5 techie who couldn't care less what he does in the office, but it's not an outlook that is at all common. Quite the opposite: it is usually the middle management that is 9-5, and the technical people slug their guts out around the clock. While hours beyond the call of duty do not mean everything, nevertheless they do imply dedication and responsibility.
Of course, management always thinks that it is at the top of the pyramid of responsibility and authority, even in a company whose business is entirely technical and where the actual wealth creators are the technical people. Well, it's up to every professional technical person to disabuse them of that. It can be tough and confrontational, but it is also rewarding in the long run to be recognized for carrying out a key and indispensible engineering role.
My answer to your question is simple: do the job that you find most rewarding and fulfilling. If you were a bum-on-seat tech laborer with zero authority and no responsibility in a company run by managers who treat their techies as menial labor, then not only should you flee the technical positions, but abandon the company in its entirety.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Asks help from strangers,
For answers allready there,
Look into one's soul
"I have recently been extended an offer to come work as an engineer for one of the internet search companies"
:->
..."
If that search company is Google, go for it.
Although, with all the cash they continue to harvest, you certainly could go back to the bargaining table and request more.
Seriously though, I'd be interested in hearing what qualifications you have, the details of how you were approached, and what pay differences were talking about.
Otherwise, you might as well be asking a technical question without posting the necessary details about your hardware and software.
"I've been going out with this one woman, Sara,
Now you're climbin' to the top of the company ladder
Hope it doesn't take too long
Can'tcha you see there'll come a day when it won't matter
Come a day when you'll be gone
Now everybody's got advice they just keep on givin'
Doesn't mean too much to me
Lot's of people out to make-believe they're livin'
Can't decide who they should be.
I understand about indecision
But I don't care if I get behind
People livin' in competition
All I want is to have my peace of mind.
Pedro, just listen to your heart. That's what I'd do.
The money is the easy part. Do what you like and you will be good at it. From there you should be able to figure out how to get paid for it.
If you are asking Slashdot what you should do because you don't know what your personal goals in life are then you need to get the hell out of management. How you made it up that far is baffling to me. Above all else, managers have to have vision. You are supposed to be a leader. You don't have to be the smartest or the best at thinking on his/her feet. You don't have to have a winning smile or a natural gift for influencing people. What you absolutely must know, however, is where the fuck you are going because everyone else is following you.
I'm not saying that you are a worthless person and you need to die as soon as possible. I'm saying that you are not cut out for management. Find something else that suits your personality better.
If you knew what you wanted to accomplish in this lifetime, your "decision" would probably be a no-brainer.
I'm probably heading for a troll here, but does the angst and hand wringing of some manager considering taking a job in programming have that much import? Be glad you got a job buddy, be blessed you have opportunity in abundance. And be a bit humble about it.
I think this is the first time I've actually seen an Ask Slashdot that is completely and utterly impossible to come close to answering if you are not the person asking Slashdot.
Seriously, it all depends on what's important to you, where you are in life and where you want to be in life. Nobody can make this decision for you, or even offer any meaningful input because it's a completely personal matter.
We live in a world where you need money to do pretty much anything. In North America it is next to impossible to survive with out money. As much as money is needed it is not everything. Anyone's decision about taking a pay cut or a pay increase for varying responsibilities should take the time to consider:
1) Is this something that will make me happy?
2) Can I continue my current lifestyle? (If the current lifestyle is important.)
3) Can I pay my bills?
The most important one of those I think is, will it make me happy. Regardless of other possible changes if you won't be happy it won't matter if you were in a position to make hordes more money than before. If you are looking at a pay cut as the original post says, well, you want to be happy.
Money is not everything. It can sustain our life if spent on the right things, it can make us happy with a new toy/gizmo/etc, but I have never seen money bring to happiness/joy to anyone. Work/Life balance is important, and less money is not always a bad thing.
Regards,
Ryan Pritchard
Fun Extends All Basic Life Expectancies
I'd say you need to take a step back, and really think about your life. What do you want to accomplish with your life? What do you enjoy?
... take the new position.
... will you suddenly find yourself unable to ever find a computer (or management) job again?
If continuing in your current position (you can't go up unless the company expands) gives you the professional satisfaction you need, and sufficient pay to afford to do the things you enjoy, then there's no reason to change.
If you feel like your current position is just work, and it intrudes on your ability to do things that you find personally rewarding
Really, you're making this decision harder than it is. Are you going to starve if you take the pay cut? Will the one, true love of your life leave you? If either of the companies goes under
Live a little. That's what you're here for.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there's a big difference.
Why do people stay at jobs, or choose to switch to another job? I asked a colleague, Doug Lang, this question in 1994 when he chose to quit rather than start commuting 20 miles instead of 1 mile despite being the second highest paid employee (after the company president). He said "There are three things you get from working: money, learning and fun. Everyone decides for themselves what ratio between those three variables they want to have at any given time by either staying or leaving. If you're making a lot of money but not having fun or learning anything, maybe it's time to make less money and learn something."
Ever since, I've applied those three variables to every job I've had, and it's helped me leave boring, plateaued jobs that paid well.
In theory, theory is better than practice, but in practice, it isn't.
Ask yourself - do you want to be mucking with computers in a few years, or do you want to use IT as a springboard for something else?
If you know the IT systems at a non-IT centric shop, your knowledge of how things work could help you as a manager of some other part of the organization. It all depends on what you want.
I have friends who are/were talented engineers who transitioned to other roles because they became sick and tired of the work. One guy is the Director of a non-profit and another is a muckety-muck for a small company.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
It doesn't matter. Eventually, whichever one you pick will have her flaws exposed. At that point, you will find yourself thinking wistfully back to the one you didn't pick, and the ideal, if totally fictional, life you and she would be leading.
As such, which one you pick makes no difference whatsoever.
ceci n'est pas un sig.
Are you happy and content, and believe your job will still exist in 1, 2, or 5 years? If so then stay, but if you're not really happy, are restless, or are concerned about job security then if you can still get by on the lower pay go for it. It may be that job satisfaction may make up for lower pay, or the offered position may lead to a higher paying position later. Basically it boils down to whether or not you are happy with your job.
FalconShould there be a Law?
You must not be looking very hard at the numbers... From my perspective, the management track will probably be more profitable. Once you hit the director level and up, options, bonus programs, and other perks are more or less standard fare. You may be top of your food chain at the current company, but there are other companies out there. It is much harder for a technologist with 'business' skills to become management than it is for management to be savvy in the craft. If it is a technology based company, both skills are a major boon if you end up in the leadership role.
As learning - it does not matter what track you pick - you should always be learning.
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
What happens if everyone in America suddenly decided to follows this advice?
/.'ers the pool of available talent for pornography would likely get a great deal smaller. Because, every woman I've met *really* wants to be in porn for the artistic value rather than the money.
Some of the more immediate impacts would be:
-Would anyone work at a retail chain?
-How may garbage collectors find driving a truck around the city their eternal source of happiness?
-Do you think postal workers get their happiness needs met at work? I believe the term "go postal" pretty much makes my point.
-What about air traffic controllers? Managing airspace would have to be another eternal spring of happiness.
-In a serious blow to most
The vast majority of jobs are just that, jobs. Do your work, get your pay and go home. Now, if you have the financial resources to wait until your perfect job comes, then you are indeed part of a small group of luxury workers.
I'm not saying don't seek happines and fulfillment. But just casually throwing out feel-good statements in this context is potentially damaging.
Please STOP spreading this myth.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
From dictionary.com, the meaning of work:
/. for the first time a "Luxury Worker." The term's official meaning: Any person who can wait as long as needed to choose the job that most pleases you. That truly is rare and far from the modal (as in most frequent number) American's income and working capacity.
# Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something.
1. A job; employment: looking for work.
2. A trade, profession, or other means of livelihood.
Hmmm, there is NO mention of happiness or pleasure in that definition. But there is something about livelihood though. Another common description "Exchange labor for money." No, no happiness mentioned there either.
Maybe then, you have the resources to become what I officially declare today on
Casually throwing out feel-good statements like "just do what makes you happy and the rest will come" is potentially very damaging because it doesn't work out like that sometimes.
Furthermore, it flies in the face of many of the unspoken rules, status and career path expectations that are a part of today's working world.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
If you want to gain technical experience and prestige, work in free/libre open-source software projects.
Society will adjust. Maybe we can automate some of the tasks or maybe we will do without. Anything is "potentially" damaging. Your own post is "potentially" damaging. so I'm curious to know why you aren't taking your own advice?
"There are three things you get from working: money, learning and fun. Everyone decides for themselves what ratio between those three variables they want to have at any given time by either staying or leaving. If you're making a lot of money but not having fun or learning anything, maybe it's time to make less money and learn something."
That's about the best way I've heard it put, and will try to recall it. Thanks.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I took a job at a substantial pay cut (30+%) in order to get onto a cool project with a cool team with good growth prospects. The problem? I found that the salary you're paid sets management's expectations of your performance. I found that since my experience wasn't acknowledged when I was hired (they couldn't), it was very hard to move up afterwards. You not only have to prove yourself in your existing position, you have to prove yourself in all of the internening ones.
:)
I could have very easily slowed down, relaxed and slacked off for 20 years. Not something that I wanted to do, so I went looking elsewhere.
Jason
What happens if everyone in America suddenly decided to follows this advice?
Nothing. Many people enjoy money more than doing a specific task. They will still carry out the jobs that most would not enjoy doing.
I generally would recommend against a pay cut unless one of following expections hold:
(a) you are currently overpaid
(b) you are moving to academia or
(c) you are given extremely juicy and promising stock options
The fact that you're even considering the switch means that the extra money you're earning doesn't mean all that much to you.
You only live once, if you learned anything in your management role you may quickly rise through the ranks at the new company and be better off than before. Don't play it safe.
Amazing magic tricks
You forgot the best part of the boston lyrics (and probably the most relavent part of this discussion)...
TAKE A LOOK AHEAD!
Making a decision based on current money or current position is a sure sign of premature-optimization...
A couple of years ago I was in a very well paying job but was absolutely miserable. Hated it. Hated going.
I decided to leave and go with a smaller company. Took about a 10% hit in pay. But, I couldn't be happier with the decision to switch jobs. Absoluelty love the new gig.
I've read comments like this twice this week. Am I as an IT person unfulfilled because I'm not a concert pianist? No, I don't have the desire or ability.
A lot of people just don't have the IQ to do anything more than sling burgers. They do what they can. Maybe they think their job sucks and want to do something else, but that kind of thinking isn't limited to just janitors. Frankly a job I don't ever need to think about unless I'm punched in doesn't sound so bad.
Garbage collector - decent pay, paid overtime, drive to/from work not during rush-hour, no on-call pager, no hair-thinning level of responsibilty. I wear gloves and take a shower end of the day. It's just trash, it won't kill me.
To each their own.
What if your source of happiness was playing the piano? According to the original post, it's recommended you quit your IT job and immediately try to find work playing the piano because as he states, "do what you enjoy and the rest will follow."
Based on my experience living in Los Angeles and working with countless musicians/actors that did and didn't make it in entertainment, The most likely turnout of "The rest" in this case would be debt, hunger and homelessness because you'll be in a very long line of unemployed musicians.
Therefore, the "do what you enjoy" is more greeting card platitude that gets one into dire straits than anything else.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
I agree in general, but:
/.'ers the pool of available talent
-Would anyone work at a retail chain?
I know several (single) people who are perfectly happy at their retail jobs
-How may garbage collectors find driving a truck around the city
-their eternal source of happiness?
I know one man who does, but mainly because he loves fixing all the still useful things we throw away and makes sculptures of those he can't.
-Do you think postal workers get their happiness needs met at
-work? I believe the term "go postal" pretty much makes my point.
No contest here:)
-What about air traffic controllers? Managing airspace would have
-to be another eternal spring of happiness.
Considering the skill it takes to do so, I imagine there are some who do love it.
-In a serious blow to most
-for pornography would likely get a great deal smaller. Because,
-every woman I've met *really* wants to be in porn for the
-artistic value rather than the money.
I imagine there are enough attention whores(forgive the pun) that it wouldn't hurt it too much(consider all the amateur porn). They'd just be a bit uglier until the scars fade and the braces come off:)
Contrary to popular belief, some people enjoy doing things that you don't like. I have good friends that love their retail jobs. I personally love doing residential construction. I also happen to enjoy technology management, teaching, and volunteer supervision. I think your outlook is damaging to people, and by extension, horrible for society.
My statement is not a feelgood statement. It's a truth of fact of what has worked for me, my family, and those people who are around me and happy. Deal with the fact that others choose different paths than you. I said that if making lots of money, etc etc makes you happy, then by all means, do the jobs that the rest of us don't want to do, for more money. I think the inherent problem with you argument is that the "undesirable" jobs like garbageman and air traffic controllers should be paid more, so that people who are interested in being happy via money do them. There's an incentive system both ways, and if that means I have to take a paycut so that others can enjoy themselves as well, I'm more than willing to do so. Your view of society is based on a static, unchanging view of the present, rather than looking at the way society and economy adapts to changes in its' structure all the time.
Assuming that your present company will be viable for the foreseeable future, take the money and run.
Work is work, spend the extra money on your retirement, personal toys, charity or whatever. Don't get caught up in the ego of working for Google or MS or Sun or whoever. Don't get caught up in believing that if you're not working at the bleeding edge of technology, you're a loser.
Cash is king baby!
I have good friends that love their retail jobs
/hr. And I'm not sure how you're going to pay for a car either. According to everything you've said, you'll still be in shang-gri-la.
Married? Most likey not. Living at home? Possible. Working more than 1 job? Likely because retail doesn't pay well. Health Insurance with $100 deductable? I'd say impossible. Now it is possible that they live some place with low cost of living, but it's only a matter of time before they are priced out. Wait, don't tell me, they'll get by on Love right?
I personally love doing residential construction. I also happen to enjoy technology management, teaching, and volunteer supervision.
There's little money or prestige in swinging a hammer. Unless it's the family business... So you get into tech management.
You certainly were chosen for management over others and you didn't turn down the position. So, you are disguising the crassness of capitalism and your own drive to succeed at the expense of others, not to mention your greed. Your sanctimonious position is the eqivalent of putting frosting on a sh*t cake. You won't eat it, so you feed it to others.
if that means I have to take a paycut so that others can enjoy themselves as well, I'm more than willing to do so.
Where's all your money coming from? Better yet, I'll hire you for 5.50 an hour no benefits here in L.A. doing residential construction. Your kids can go to one of the many public schools that are losing their certification and watch TV in their classes all day. Meanwhile you and your family can sleep 5 to a room because you won't be able to afford an apartment on $5.50
Your post reeks of bourgeois (Marxist def.) sympathy and quickie-mart self-actualization that has no connection to the crassness of capitalism and little basis in economic reality. I suspect the attitude generally comes from some kind of benefactor funding you at your beckon call.
We're all greedy competitive individuals who are totally willing to gain at someone else's expense. Some people have more opportunity to do that than others too. Wrapping that up in feel-good phrases is an odd choice, but an individual can't get far in life without a whole lot of denial.
Show me the money!
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
It's better to be at the bottom of a ladder you want to climb than halfway up another you don't.
If that gets one into the Dire Straits, I'd say one was pretty succesful in creating a career in music...
If you have any inclination at all to get back into development you should jump at this chance. The longer you stay in management, the less likely you will ever get back to development/design work.
Besides, it sounds like you've reached the local maxima of income where you currently are anyway.
There is no reason for a skilled person (as this guy obviously is) to not make a choice that also includes his own happiness. There's no requirement for utter ecstatic joy in the workplace, but it is MUCH easier to go to work and not feel like a cog in a system if you enjoy what you are doing. He is being faced with two very diverse choices, that is, he has a choice. He can choose which work environment will make him happier. That was the point I was trying to make.
As far as unspoken rules, they are only rules if you decide to follow them. I'm highly skeptical of traditional 'career paths' these days, since it seems most companies are just hiring and letting go as needed, putting in your 10 years no longer translates. You practically have to skip around companies just to get a 'promotion'. Anyone who cares more about status than their own happiness needs to evaluate themselves.
You say you got a real solution
Well, you know
We'd all love to see the plan
(The Beatles)
sometimes we stick to something just because we are comfortable and do not want to disturb anything that is going just fine. but as it goes, highest dividents are paid for highest risks. it doesn't mean we have to gamble with life, but if every instinct tells you to take that job and only money is pulling you back, probably you should take it. in my experience, psuedo-managerial jobs will only dumb you down.
every cliche in this world will ask you to go for happiness when faced with such choices. so that is a natural choice. but remember that always grass looks greener on the other side. life on the other side may not be as rewarding as it made out to be, but you will not know unless you try it out. so, try it out and tell us how it went.
Air Traffic Controllers are VERY well compensated. Bad example.
I looked into doing that for a living, I actually enjoy stuff like that, but I was slightly too late in life.
+++OK ATH