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Dell's Open PC Costs More Than Windows Box
fist_187 writes "In this article at The Register, they show thath Dell's Open PC costs more than a PC shipped with Windows XP. That's right, getting a PC with a blank hard drive costs more than the same hardware running Windows XP." From the article: "As it turns out, Dell's sales staffers have a secret web page for the product that you can't find with normal search tactics. A kind lass we'll call 'M' pointed us here. On this site, Dell presents a couple different versions of the mysterious E510n. The lowest-end system starts at $774 and is exactly like the boxes above - including the free flat panel - except it has 512MB of memory. For some reason, Dell told reporters that the box starts at $849 - yet another one of the odd sales tactics surrounding this "open source" kit. [Following the publication of our story, Dell raised the price of the PC back up to $849. See the sales pages below for the original $774 price comparisons.]"
The PC with the blank hard drive appears to ship with a combo cd/dvd-rom and a fax modem. The PC with windows does not list these features.
Dell's business units are so odd. You can go on their web site and find 3 different prices for the exact same thing depending on which unit you go in, and I mean home, small business, and large. I have ordered from all over that site for personal stuff, it cracks me up sometimes. I would be interested in why that happens. I have asked our Dell rep at work, but he couldn't really give a good answer either.
Didn't we already cover all of this from here:4 7&threshold=1&commentsort=0&tid=137&mode=thread&ci d=13721513
http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1643
Right now, my company installs new OSes using PXE. If the PC can't boot from CD or HD, it defaults to PXE, and a drive image of a fresh install is copied to the hard drive. It's actually much more convenient than dealing with the default install from the factory.
And as for RMAing failed boards, we standardized on Dells a while back, and so far, I'd say that about 30-35% we recieved had hardware failures for one reason or another (HD, Mobo, fans, power supplies). Brand_Name != High_Quality
Not Allowed.
Behold the OEM license, and Anti-Unbundling clauses. The software is tied to the hardware, and the license sticker is even on the unit (just the case).
It's annoying -- but intentional -- to prevent exactly what you describe.
Why aren't you encrypting your e-mail?
One Page ad free version of article:
_ pc/print.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/06/dell_open
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
Thats illegal, you can't use it on any non-that-brand machine so its worthless.
Baloney!
District courts in California and Texas have issued decisions applying the doctrine of first sale for bundled computer software in Softman v. Adobe (2001) and Novell, Inc. v. CPU Distrib., Inc. (2000) even if the software contains a EULA prohibiting resale. In the Softman case, after purchasing bundled software (A box containing many programs that are also available individually) from Adobe Systems, Softman unbundled it and then resold the component programs. The California District Court ruled that Softman could resell the bundled software, no matter what the EULA stipulates, because Softman had never assented to the EULA. Specifically, the ruling decreed that software purchases be treated as sales transactions, rather than explicit license agreements. In other words, the court ruling argued that Californian consumers should have the same rights they would enjoy under existing copyright legislation when buying a CD or a book.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Well, I know of a computer company that sells virgin computers, in nice, elegant, white boxes.
Actually it does matter. You see Microsoft will not activate any OEM OS cd from Dell. This was done by Microsoft as an effort to stop piracy and illegal copies. The Dell-branded os cds will only self activate when installed on a Dell machine. If you try to activate it online it will fail and if you phone Microsoft they will tell you to talk to Dell because it is OEM. Oh and by the way that cheap OEM version is identical to the version you can go and buy at the store. It is just branded as Dell software because of the partnership between Dell and Microsoft.
So couple of reasons. One is simple: The DMCA. Your OEM copy of Windows will not work on a non-Dell box. To make it do so, you have to modify it and such modifications would violate the DMCA. Though I disagree with the law it currently is the law and thus if you violate it you can be subject to criminal charges.
The other is that even without that, software is kind of special. When you use software, you actually make a copy of it to your computer, something not necessiarly permitted by copyright law. Thus the permission comes in the form of an EULA, to which you must agree or you don't have that right. Well the EULA restricts this.
Is that legal? Well, maybe. Notice that game rental sotres don't rent computer games, just console games. The reason is, of course, concerns over copying. However console games can be, and are, copied all the time. So what's the deal? Well, likely game companies have sucessfully used the EULA argument to stop rentals. Can't be done with console games. No copying, thus no legal problems, and doctrine of first sale allows the rentals. However with PC games the copying happens, thus the need for EULA agreements, thus the problem.
Now like I said, all that's murkeir, might be that provision of the EULA isn't enforcable. However it's all moot, given the DMCA. You can't sell your copy of Windows using the provided key, it won't work, the key is Dell only. To modify Windows to use a different key is to break the DMCA which, retarded as it is, is the law.
You didn't buy it, you licensed it.
A "copy" is defined by federal copyright law (17 USC 101) as a physical object in which a computer program is fixed, such as a hard drive or an optical disc. The "owner" of a physical object is defined by state law and is generally set up by a transaction called a "sale". Combine these and you get the "owner of a copy", who retains specific rights backed up by defenses under 17 USC sections 109 and 117 as well as fit-for-purpose provisions of state law. In order for the primary end user in a residential environment to not be the "owner of a copy", you generally have to have a transaction that is not a "sale". Courts interpreting state law, especially the Uniform Commercial Code, have tended to interpret a retail transaction in which somebody carries a box and cash to the cashier, sets them down, and walks off with the box and a receipt, as a "sale". See Softman v. Adobe.
What legal precedent backs up your position? Or do you claim that the install package is encrypted and that the installer is an access control mechanism designed to condition access to the work on "authority of the copyright owner" under 17 USC 1201 and in turn condition such "authority" on acceptance of additional terms after the sale?
Gator hell. I've seen recent HP desktops come from Best Buy with MyWay searchbar pre-installed. Every URL visited gets passed to MyWay's servers, ostensibly to allow it to "target" the search results it displays. In reality the end-user is just bombarded with more advertising. And what's worse, many of the MyWay ads link to sites that install -really- invasive crapware like SurfSidekick.
End of lesson. You may press the button.
Dell knows exactly what it's doing: establishing and maintaning a confusopoly in the PC business. They intentionally make it hard to figure out the price, because they hope you'll get tired and just accept whatever number is on the screen.
It's just like a bait-and-switch, except harder to prove.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Economically, maybe. Practically, no. Dumping laws are aimed at foreign producers. Microsoft, being a company developing software in America, probably can't be hit for importing product cheaper than its domestic competitors can (a common metric for dumping laws). Dumping laws are protectionist and rob consumers of value. Unfortunately, I've yet to see a consumer lobbyist group in Washington.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
The reason the 'open' box costs more than a XP machine is partially because of the amount of pre-installed crap...er...I mean *sweet* trial software which subidizes the cost of the hardware.
Hasn't anyone here bought one of those unbelievably cheap 2.8Ghz/256mb/free 17" flatscreen/etc for about $400 after rebate? $400!
If I were to newegg (verb) the same parts and build a machine from scratch it would be more than $400...not including the cost of the XP license (who knows what Dell pays for those anyway)
For those who haven't bought or had to deal with one of these, it's a pain in the arse. It will take you about an hour to clean the system enough for a reasonably fast boot.
My experience with Dell is that they have VERY tricky prices. Never buy something from Dell until you check all the coupon sites. Dell plays the game of having several divisions that price the same items differently. Prices sometimes fluctuate at each division more than once in a month.
Basically, I have found Dell to be a very abusive company. The only reason I would buy from them is if they have something not available from somewhere else, such as the 2405FPW 24 inch LCD monitor made by Samsung and BenQ.
If you do business with Dell, get a written warranty.
Be careful about Dell employees. They sometimes act for themselves and against the interest of their company. Talking to Dell is like going into a rough neighborhood.
My experience is that Dell is undergoing the social breakdown that is happening in other parts of the United States. One big example of the general breakdown is discussed in this transcript and video: Ike Was Right About War Machine. ("Ike" is former U.S. President and former Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in Europe General Dwight D. Eisenhower.)
See also Andy Rooney speaks out against the war in Iraq.
Is that legal? Well, maybe. Notice that game rental sotres don't rent computer games, just console games. The reason is, of course, concerns over copying. However console games can be, and are, copied all the time. So what's the deal? Well, likely game companies have sucessfully used the EULA argument to stop rentals. Can't be done with console games. No copying, thus no legal problems, and doctrine of first sale allows the rentals. However with PC games the copying happens, thus the need for EULA agreements, thus the problem.
May I direct you to Exclusive rights in copyrighted works. I quote: "(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;" Nothing to do with copying. Nothing to do with EULAs. Not permitted by doctrine of first sale. Rentals are specifically named as an exclusive right. The console game companies want to license that right, the PC game companies do not. That is all.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Do you have a stack of dead dells waiting for Dell to fix too?
Give me HP any day...
As a copyright holder, I can say "Your legal right to use this software exists only so long as your left ring finger is jammed into your belly button", and well, that's the price of the license. Don't like? Don't use the software!
That is incorrect. Copyright holders have no ability enforce an unaccept contract. If I don't accept the license, the default is NOT that I can not use the software. That is incorrect, the default is docterine of first sale. I own it, I can do what I want with it. There is NOTHING magical about software that suddenly it gets added protections that books do not.
What you are suggesting is that it is perfectly legal to sell someone a product THEN inside the product have a contract that determines the use of that product. That's nonsense. I own it, I can do what I want with it, including sell it.
Burn Hollywood Burn
Having worked in the Dell management at Round Rock in Texas I can tell you that the production steps for an identical system without Windows XP are exactly the same, except software installation and a brief test of the system and harddrive which are basically unnecessary because all of the components have been tested already extensively. The actual production cost is exactly the same as a Windows machine minus the licensing fees(between $130 and $150 total) for Windows and other software and the labor for software installation and testing(perhaps $10). This means the price tag for a system without Windows is approximately $150 less. Any claims to the contrary are not true. What's happening is that there is still alot of internal politics and pro-Microsoft lobbying and brainwashing going on and is has been suggested not to pass on the cost savings of a Windows-free system to the consumer and we have been urged to deny that systems without Windows are saving us production cost in order to make them unattractive.
Microsoft still has alot of control over our company politics which manifests itself in many ways e.g. anyone in sales is being instructed when asked about Windows-free or Linux systems to answer in a firm and confident manner: "I have never heard about that." and "There is no demand for that." This is the reason that in order to even get a Windows refund or merchandise credit the customer needs to speak to someone who is above the first level of sales. Sorry, but that's Dell politics for you. Fortunately things have started to change but very slowly.
I have been buying from Dell in numerous capacities for years, and it is rare that you cannot find the same thing at diiferent prices depending on how you play with the site. There are different pricing models depending on consumer or business even on the same models. It get even more fun when you realize some of the business models are identical to consumer models, they just have different names and the base state is slightly different. Customize up and match them (if you know how to decode dells mobo obsfucation) and Voila!!! 3 or 4 different prices for the exact same thing. Now If you are a Dell prefered buyer you are supposed to get the discount you arranged right? HAHAHAHAHA not if you look!
---In a time of Chimpanzees I was a Monkey.
In Germany, there was a similar case a few years ago. A dealer unbundled PC hardware and Microsoft OEM licenses and sold them separately. Microsoft sued him and lost. At the Bundesgerichtshof to boot, which is the highest judical authority in non-constitutional cases. That makes the decision rather final.
IIRC, the court explicitly applied the german equivalent of the "First Sale" doctrine, the EULA mumbo-jumbo nonwithstanding.
C - the footgun of programming languages
I've installed a Dell XP OEM CD on VPC after wiping the install off the Dell HD and had MS activate it, so I don't think that's accurate.