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States Planning to Require License to Sell on EBay
RobMowery writes "CNN reports that North Dakota and other state governments are trying to pass laws to require people who are selling for others on Ebay to purchase an auctioneer license, attend classes (for a fee) and become bonded." From the article: "North Dakota's Public Service Commission is exploring whether people like Nichols, who runs a small consignment store in Crosby, must obtain auctioneer licenses before they can legally use eBay to sell merchandise for others. Regulators in other states are also eyeing similar restrictions or preconditions, moves prompted by the growing popularity of online auctions. To get a North Dakota auctioneer's license, applicants must pay a $35 fee, obtain a $5,000 surety bond and undergo training at one of eight approved auction schools, where the curriculum includes talking really fast ... Commissioner Kevin Cramer said he does not believe the law applies to people who sell their own goods over eBay, but it could cover those who sell property consigned by others for a fee."
I think this is a good idea. These individuals are running an auctioning business by taking peoples items for consignment. As long as it does not spread to those just selling their own private goods, this seems like an incredibly good idea.
It provides protections to the people who give their goods over for sale, as well as provides a link to the individual that is selling, and a person can prove that they are a bonded seller as well.
Obviously the classes would have to change slightly for internet retailers, mentioning talking fast is sort of moot if this were to go ahead.
If you don't vote, you don't matter, so don't waste your time telling me your opinion
Those schools should be required to add "online auctions" as a class.
Not saying that I agree with this, but if you're going to force the online guys to learn the auctioneer rap, the auctioneers better learn how to navigate eBay and similar systems. If the pretense for passing this law is being fair and equitable, then it had better be.
Constitutionally Correct
It's amazing that we, the people, actually vote for people that are willing to do this. Note to politicians: Learn how to balance a budget like 99% of the country has to! Stop spending on crap and realize you cannot keep quietly taxing us. This is living free?
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
Ok, someone who puts something on ebay ISN'T running the auction. Ebay is. The person placing the good on ebay sets the high price and reserve - but how is that any different than if you hire an auctioneer?
So does everyone who wants to hire an auctioneer now need a license to auction? How non-sensical is that?
This is, quite literally, a stab at taxing the internet.
Either way, I see it as a stupid idea. This is two things: a blatant attempt at getting more revenue for the state (though licensing fees), and (pure guess here) an attempt by auctioneers (probably a union of some sort) to get more money because their trade is threatened (in some ways) by eBay.
Why eBay? Why not require it for garage sales? Why not go after silent auctions that all sorts of places run (like many school districts and churches to raise funds). Usually there is a little good a law might do, or you can at least see some good intent behind it. This would do anything but prevent everyone in ND from selling things on eBay.
If you want to protect people from fraud, go after the NDers that are actually perpetrating fraud on others through eBay. Come up with a way to become a "registered eBayer" in the state so people can guaranty that you can be held accountable if you rip people off (but make it voluntary, and free or nearly so ($5) with no classes our anything like that).
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Also note that this affects only people who are go-betweens for other customers, NOT your typical homemaker or hobbiest who just discovered that Aunt Ida's prized mathom is going for $5,000 online.
This only pertains to people who sell other people's goods online. The headline is misleading.
A blog like any other.
This law seems reasonably well intentioned, but as with internet sales taxes it will be hard to enforce via state laws. And of course for sellers outside of the U.S., forget it. Wouldn't it be better for states to make this a voluntary certification rather than a law. Sellers that have gone through the certification process could use it as additional proof of trustworthiness and the state doesn't have to waste resources trying to enforce a law that may be inherently unenforceable for internet commerce.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
What's particularly irksome is that this represents triple-taxing of the transaction. eBay consignment shops need a POP because people are more comfortable with that, and shipping an unsold item to sell it and then ship it again is just too expensive. So the business is paying taxes in the state in which it is incorporated. And possibly in all states in which its shops operate (I'm not familiar with the tax situation there). And certainly the individuals who eventually receive the shops' profits are taxed on income. The double-taxation of corporate income is reasonable because the corporate tax rate is low and incorporation provides concrete advantages which it is reasonable to pay for. I really don't see how this third layer of taxation is anything but an attempt by the states to suck a little more money out of the population without providing anything in exchange.
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
If I want to hire someone to put my stuff up on ebay, I'll decide whether I want them to have a license or certification or not. Please don't try to represent me by deciding this on my behalf.
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The Congress shall have Power To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;*
* Not valid in all areas. Some restrictions may apply. Consult an attorney before attempting trade within the several states. If redness or inflamation appear discontinue interstate trade immediatly and seek legal assitance.
I'd like Congress to consider using an actual advisory panel of random internet business owners (not those appointed by the executive branch) and let them advise congress on what kinds of laws would be reasonable and acceptable by the internet business public.
Taxing and Regulating EBay or other auction businesses like it is absolutely unacceptable, not just to the potential seller but for the entire business of auctioning.
You don't do it to live, in-person auctions, you don't do it online. It's just that simple. Get your taxes somewhere else, like oh the real businesses in your own damn states that you're giving tax breaks to. They don't need it and they don't deserve them. Don't make Auctioneers suffer for it.
"Love is like pi - natural, irrational, and very important." (Lisa Hoffman)
`In a free market, anyone can enter'
In the real world, all markets have barriers to entry, chief of which is capital. The so called barrier of entry you're referring to is, practically speaking, no more a barrier to entry than being required to pony up an equivalent amount of cash to start a vending route or to beer making equipment, or any other business that requires investment.
`owning a small business doesn't turn you into a capitalist '
That much is correct. Capitalism is a theory of production, not a theory of retail or professional services. A business owner is only a capitalist inasmuch as he or she owns the means of production. Many businesses don't produce anything in the sense of the word used by economists.
But let's be objective about this. Show me a single market of concrete goods for which all the assumptions of perfect competition hold. Once you are able to do that, then we talk as to whether a license to sell things on consignment is anymore of an artifical barrier of entry than any of the other barriers of entry (such as a lack of money) to most markets.
...has really killed off the sleazy car salesmen and predatory financing.
Regulations like this are just begging to be routed around.
If my "buy it now" price is the same as my reserve, then it's not an auction and not subject to the law.
Consignment salesmen may find it easier to just tell their customers "Here are recent ebay prices on that item. Pick a price and I'll sell it on e-bay for that fixed price" than to mess with licenses etc.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Step back for just a minute and look at the reasons why it was decided long ago that you needs an auctioneer license. Obviously running an auction takes a bit of skill. Recognizing bid raises, knowing how much to raise the price, knowing how long to wait for the item to be sold, and the whole "talking fast" thing are special skills. The idea of regulating it is to protect the public from unskilled auctioneers who won't get a good price for an item.
Almost all of that crap is handled by Ebay itself. The person selling the item by proxy only has to set an initial price, describe the item, etc. These are all skills that don't normally require regulation in any other context. Why (other than trying to raise more tax revenue) should the states try to regulate trading assistance?
AccountKiller
I've written many letters of complaint to various orgs (BBB, FTC, Local Police) etc about both Ebay and PayPal, especially PayPal.
Ebay and PayPal are rife with fraud and do nothing to protect their customers. These companies should be held responsible for the staggering amount of fraud their companies facilitate.
Write to your local congressman, the FTC and BBB and tell them that you think PayPal behaves like a bank and you believe it should be treated like a bank. Also let them know that Ebay is littered with fraud and does shockingly little to stop it, despite being in the best position to do so.
Ebay is technically the auctioneer, hosts the auction, etc. Shouldn't they be the only ones that need a license. If not a simple change in their user agreement would protect the "auctioneer's" from needing a license.
It's always amazing to me the rights states feel they have over the lives of their citizens. How long before you need a license to sneeze? After all, sneezing can spread disease if done wrong. I'd say about 4 weeks of classes should be sufficient to teach you how to do it properly. Of course, you pay for this.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
You missed his point, either deliberately or not.
His point was Ebay is the auctioneer, not the consignment store. Ebay conducts the auction, not the person accepting items for consignment sale.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Yes, but that decision to put up capital is incredibly voluntary. You're confusing the monetary definition of "Free" with the civil liberties version of "Free", the common mistake of any idiotic conflict theorist/marxist.
I for one do not welcome our blundering politician overlords...
How would you welcome someone who is already here?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
In California all pawn brokers are regulated and for good reason. Because they're selling goods on behalf of a third party they are often seen as 'fences' for stolen goods. By regulating the trade the state has an opportunity to educate those brokers who are honest but potentially naive and to have a registry of those who are less honest and may need to be contacted in the future.
If you've ever bought a used CD in CA. you've purchased from someone who was licensed and bonded (assuming their papers were in order, sig heil!). Having worked at a record shop that did a booming business in legitimate used CDs and vinyl I would say the regulations were not intrusive and worked to assure out customers that anything they bought from us came with a clear title.
Remember, title on stolen goods cannot be transferred by a third party. If you buy a big ticket item on eBay and it turns out to be stolen, the police will confiscate it from you without any reparation. You are free to file a civil suit against the seller, but good luck getting a payout from Joe Schmoe in NY when you're halfway across the continent. Admittedly, the proposed classes would need to have their contents updated but regulating the trade in potentially stolen goods is not a bad thing.
Holy crap, we made Slashdot! Take that, Wyoming!
If you read the article, you'll see that it's just the state Public Service Commission "exploring" whether this is a good idea. I doubt they'll implement it - the PSC just has nothing better to do this week.
I feel this is a horribly stupid idea. Aside from being unconstitutional, the "education" for getting such a liscense when you're only selling on eBay is just utterly stupid. It's like forcing me to take a class on painting when I'm a CS major. There's little point.
All the states are trying to do is to suck more money from the taxpayers.
However, there is a shiny side this this horrible idea: by being certified by the state, they can list said credentials on eBay (and various other auction sites.) Then, unless their account gets hijacked, you can be certain that you will be able to have no false listings or other fraud.
Despite this shiny side, there is no real good reason to put things like this in place. I encourage everyone in the affected states to write to their representatives/governer/etc. and express your displeasure with this. Don't forget to mention the unconstitutionality of it!
For the record, Ayn Rand would be proud of your assessment of libertarians.
As for the question of whether the state will start regulating more than just consigners, you don't need to read a 1,000+ page book for the answer. You just need common sense.
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