Slashdot Mirror
Escapist Calls For Industry Unionization
amitlu writes "In the Friday edition of the Escapist, Joe Blancato challenges the industry to compare itself to skilled labor of the past, and says it's time to organize. From the article: 'If we continue at the rate we're going, we're either going to be worrying about a bunch of college-aged kids with computer science degrees working at McDonald's, too disillusioned to continue in their chosen field or worse, the position they previously held was moved overseas to a more bottom line-friendly locale. For the sake of trying to save money on production costs, why not ship off art production to Romania? Or customer service to India? But to paraphrase the old cliché: First they came for the artists, and I said nothing...'"
It's going to be cheaper to outsource to india then to hire union labor...
To curb outsourcing?
Right, because union workers are much more attractive hires.
I read Slashdot for the articles
Many development studios are in a somewhat tenuous position. If they suddenly have no projects, they will implode. While there are some developers that will basically ream their employees to turn a quick buck, most developers dont try to deliberatly schedule a death march. But if the cash reserves are low, the dev studio is in a corner. At the end of any contract negotiation between a developer and a publisher, you basically hit a point where you have X amount of Dollars, or Y amount of Time to make a game of Z content.
Scenario A:
The Developer can try to do a death march, and heap on the uncompensated over time. The project has a shot at being done on time. This makes the publishers happy, and the employees homicidal. The resulting game usually sucks.
Scenario B:
The Developer can instead try to let everyone stick to reasonable hours, and do the best they can in the time alloted. If the scope of the game is too large, at some point, a mile stone is missed. The employees are content, and the publisher is furious. So the publisher withholds payment, and the Developer cannot make payroll. The game is aborted, and the developer cannot find new projects because they have no credibility.
The only thing I see a union accomplishing is making Scenario B happen more often.
END COMMUNICATION
This topic comes around now and then. Sadly, skilled labor is more apt to follow the metaphor that "information wants to be free" than nonskilled labor solidarity slogans.
The knowledge to write good code isn't a secret. If you can get it better elsewhere ("better" being a very subjective and detailed term) then do it!
If programming comes outsourced and completely shuffled around to the lowest labor market, I'd be delighted to see requirements/process achieve this capability. And of course, I'd start to look for a newer industry to keep my standard of living. But in the end, there's no bullying a global market into not trying to get the cheapest price. It's doing it now and examining the quality - with mixed results.
Joining a union is pretty much pledging a portion of your salary to the DNC. I don't need that mess.
Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
Assume that the workers should own the means of production. Unions promote the status quo, without actually reaching that ideal. The good news is that the cost of starting up your own company and making games can be incredibly low. Every year several people leave EA and all the other big players to start their own company. This form of socialization I think works much better in the end than a union, who's interests are promoting their own existance and resisting changes to industry practices. What the industry needs more of is cheaper, faster and more equal access to consumers. Coming from a fairly socialist/communistic viewpoint, capitalism and entrepeneurship appear to maximize the social value.
Companies like EA have become large through vertical integration; they have developed retail channels to sell their products in, and it's not easy to get shelf space without EA or someone like EA. The internet helps solve the problem, as Valve is discovering. Whether we end up with a surplus of internet distribution methods for games or whether we get one or two is up to Valve, gamers, and the employees out there with the motivation to do what they want to do for THEMSELVES.
I Browse at +4 Flamebait
Open Source Sysadmin
Do Americans have an innate right to a better financial situation than others in the world?
China, Brazil and many other governments are encouraging local software development for their own culture. Pretty soon those cheap tech-support guys in India will be supporting Indians using software written in India. Then the cost of hiring them might rise enough that it will once again be more economical to do things locally. Heck, if you think trying to understand what the Indian guy is saying is hard for you, think how hard your english is for them, all day, every day, for a fraction of your pay.
I already think it's more economical to use local support people in the long run, what with language barriars, and better accountability. Saving $2 on a support call won't matter when you lose too many paying customers. The bottom line of Outsourcing is that the providing companies make a profit, so that instead of paying $20 to an employee for $40 worth of work (if an employee isn't worth more to your company than you are paying, then you are losing money), you're paying $15, minus $5 for the Outsourcer, minus $5 for long distance, so $5 left for the worker for $10 worth of work. So you just lost money. (YMMV)
I also think it's our duty to help other cultures to progress in better ways, think of China, then think of the gas-hogging cars of the 60's/70's. If the worlds oil reserves, and the earths atmosphere is going to last for all of us, we had best help them skip over the Gasoline powered cars in every home phase, and go directly to electric/fuel cell automobiles, and the needed infrastructure.
To me, it boils down to that most americans think america is the best country in the world. I agree, but, I don't think that our Geography, our Genetics, our Religion, or our Language is ideal. What makes us the best is our Ideas, and an Idea costs us nothing to share, except our compedative advantage in other areas. But once they subscribe to our ideas, we win. Like McDonalds in Moscow.
So companies are shipping jobs overseas and willing to accept inferior work to save a few bucks, and you want to band together and start demanding better wages, job security and benefits? There is a reason GM, Delphi and Ford are in massive debt, and its mainly because unions ensure people screwing a screw into an armrest on your minivan get $28 an hour. If we unionized, more of the work would simply be shipped off. Why would I as an employer bother negotiating a collective bargaining agreement with my programmers when i can just have 100 more pakistanis or non unionized programmers do it?
Conservatards claiming that Unions are the sole source of evil in the world (because they have one track minds and can only focus on one 'evil' at a time) in 3.2.1... Oh wait they are already here in force, just like always, but they'll still kvetch about /.'s 'liberul bias'.
There is no way I'll ever join a union.
I was forced into a closed shop when I was a teenager, never will I be a part of that again.
I'm all for a more equitable share of money but you don't get that with a union. All union does if give my money to somebody else who in return tells me I have to stop work!
I think the world needs a radical shake up in the labour market but it will not happen because people unionise. I doubt it will happen in the next fifty years. It will only happen when people grasp the idea of us all being one.
That's the difference between right to work states and non-right to work states.
Yes, that's true. But even though right-to-work legislation makes it harder to form a union, it does not by default mean a union cannot be successful. I work in a union shop in a right-to-work state, and the union is still capable of successfully negotiating a new contract. The majority of workers here are members of the union, and the beauty of it is that they were not forced to join. It demonstrates to management just how strong the resolve of the workers is on a given issue.
My point is, a union can still have clout in a right-to-work state. New hires have a choice to join or not, but they are still working under the union contract, and therefore still entitled to its protections and benefits.
Must... think up... something... clever!
More games based on the Indian Mythology!
Fury of Vishnu 3!
Don't they read the news? Last week Delphi declared bankrupcy specifically to get rid of union laborers. All those union workers will now be forced to take pay cuts down to $10. It's a sure bet that other companies will follow suit with similar measures, just as they are now dumping pension benefits in emulation of the airlines. The days of the unions are clearly numbered, and only a fool would join one now.
I think this is a marvelous idea, especially since it has worked so well in the past.
Look at how successful the Steal Workers (Unionized) were at saving their jobs!
Whoops - that didn't work did it?
They priced themselves right out of a globally competitive market. The same thing is happening in engineering, IT, and programming now-adays. There are well trained individuals willing to take less money that can do the job.
Uhm - it's called supply and demand. Capital goes to where the lowest cost of production is - simple economics....
Unionization is merely a method for one to stick one's head in the sand and say Hmmm..Hmmm...Hmmm...I can't hear you...
Sheesh!
Have you compiled your kernel today??
Look, you supposedly free-market-fond ninnies. The guys in Romania have just as much to compete for the custom of your employer as you do. Give the rest of the world a chance. How *dare* you compare downsizing with the incineration of millions of Jews? Shame on you, *and* your new SUVs.
- undoware.ca
Unions, page 79.
"Do Americans have an innate right to a better financial situation than others in the world?"
For the answer to that question. Look at the policies of other countries. If the US don't have a right to a better situation? Then other countries policies likewise should reflect that philosophy towards other countries (how about India giving it up for China). I'll leave it to you to figure out why there's a discrepency between your idealism and reality.
It's a shame that no one has come up with a way to do better, combining the best aspects of a free labour market with worker empowerment.
Looking through the comments there seems to be this constant notion that unionizing or other attempts to gain worker's rights will lead to outsourcing. So what? Are we all supposed to lay low and obey our masters because we're at their whim and could be replaced at any time? Is that the world you people want to live in? The people at EA and other dev houses are being abused beyond what the law permits and you guys are only afraid of outsourcing? They aren't even getting what the law grants them and they aren't complaining because of the fear of being replaced.
The point of a union in that sector would be to make sure EA and others can't prey upon the bright-eyed inexperienced newcomers that don't know that you don't have to take every shit management throws at you. Telling them individually not to blindly obey their superiors is impossible but a union could reach enough ears to shorten the supply enough that the company no longer thinks "Man, that guy insists on his rights. Let's fire him and get some obedient cattle fresh out of school.".
And I'm not buying the whole outsourcing FUD, either. If outsourcing was really that easy and profitable, everybody would do it. That's obviously not the case. Outsourcing seems to be mere FUD like that whole "War on Terrorism" thing to keep people in line so they won't go and complain to the authorities when they're being treated unfairly. If the workers weren't constantly thinking they're easily replaceable, would they put up with that incompetent scheduling that leads to those idiotic and futile "death marches"?
Yes, I feel like I'm just reiterating the article but the whole attitude of "give them everything, just don't make them outsource you!" is getting on my nerves.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
The original quote from Niemöller is far more relevant that the submitters bit about artists...
Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Kommunist.
Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.
Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten, habe ich nicht protestiert; ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.
Als sie die Juden holten, habe ich nicht protestiert; ich war ja kein Jude.
Als sie mich holten, gab es keinen mehr, der protestierte.
There is one simple fact about human nature that makes unions inherently bad. The fact in question is that power corrupts people and there is just as much (if not more) corruption at the upper levels of unions as there are in corporations. In the end, union leaders become more concerned about their own ambitions and care more about what is good for them, then what is good for the union as a whole.
Now, unionizing in a field that is already moving to out-sourcing and off-shoring is going to only make the move go quicker, and possibly force the hand of some companies already leaning in that direction to go ahead with the move. Unions were more important many years ago before labor laws emerged into what they are today, but they are also unneeded in a highly competitive field.
You see why would you go work for company A, if company B has better benefits to offer then company A. This is the current system and it works fairly well, because people almost always look at the benefit of a certain job along with the salary and location (and whatever else at which you may look).
I have never been a big fan of unions. In most situations they do nothing but interfere with businesses, and in some cases new unions actually create rising costs for businesses since they force their policies or refuse to work. The most wonderfully stupid thing I once saw was pizza delivery drivers trying to unionize. There is also a long list of union incidents that have resulted in inconveniences for thousands of individuals and hurt companies. (Airline employees and UPS come to mind)
While I do not like the fact I work at a place with a union, I am not required to pay dues, and since I have a federal government job we cannot strike anyway. The bulk of the unions power is being counsel for employees in grievances, and this role should be the extent of most unions "help."
When I was taking my ethics course for engineering in college (Electrical Engineering), there was talk among students and the professor teaching the course about rumors around EE workers unionizing. The thought really bothered me, and the same though about CS bothers me too. I hope that workers don't start to seriously consider this, unless of course they like the idea of working at McDonald's....because that is where they will wind up if they form a union. No software company is going to give them a chance to unionize and make a union with the type of power the UAW has.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
I find it ironic that the guy writing the article claims they'll come for the artists first. They already came for the engine programmers with middleware, which is essentially just outsourcing anyway. Unfortunately, with bigger, more monolithic companies, it doesn't matter whether you can do it better, faster, cheaper, or more tailored for your application -- all that matters is that Unreal is the flavor of the month, so publishers and CEOs know what it is, which to them means less risk.
Now somebody wants to organize thousands upon thousands of game developers, some of the most independent thinking, strong willed, stubborn, quirky individualists out there into a single organzation? I'm not sure if that's even doable.
Furcadia - A free online game with user created content, DragonSpeak scripting, & more.
Working for any sizeable business pretty much guarantees that the work you do will fund lobbying for one or both parties. So do you refuse to work for any company that does political lobbying, or was that just another retarded, boiler plate anti-union argument that doesn't stand up to a few seconds of scruitiny?
That's pretty interesting, I intend to read a bit more about this. You've given us a lot to mull.
Why doesn't the 'Escapist', who can't manage to get enough funding to make a print edition yet seems to think they know the best business practices for a $10 billion industry, try to unionize it's own writers and then let us know how splendidly that improved things.
Unions arose historically when there was an oversupply of labor, similar to what we're seeing today. But unionization today, for this industry, just doesn't make sense.
Why were unions so effective? Because they had their employers by the short hairs. Industries dependent on local labor forces had to give in to the unions, or they'd have no labor at all... and be forced out of business.
Instant communications has rendered this labor model (for the tech industries, anyway) obsolete. Can't get cheap labor because of a local union? Go elsewhere. The cost of moving production is so cheap that it makes sense to do so, rather than pay higher wages. There will always be someone who needs to put food on their table who will take a low-paying job with miserable working conditions.
Plus, who is going to keep workers from 'crossing the picket line'? Do you think that a tech union will have the clout, and the strongarm ability, to get all the ducks in line? I doubt it.
Unions serve their purpose, and I believe were absolutely necessary to bring up the standard of living in the 19th and 20th centuries in the US. But unfortunately, the union model doesn't work for industries that are not geographically limited... so we'll have to figure out a different way force employers to redistribute their profits.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
> For the sake of trying to save money on production costs,
> why not ship off art production to Romania?
And unionization will slow this instead of actually accelerate it because why again?
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
The best thing that could happen for the U.S. IT economy would be if Romania and India Unionize, not us.
+++OK ATH