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National Academies on U.S. Science

theodp writes to tell us that the National Academies, the nation's 'leading science advisory group', is warning of the continued loss of America's competitive edge with regards to science in the global community. In a press release they call for the immediate increase of teachers and advanced research and development, citing that 'in 2001 U.S. industry spent more on tort litigation than on research and development.' The Committee includes, among others, Intel's Craig 'Don't Call Us Benedict Arnold CEOs' Barrett.

53 of 285 comments (clear)

  1. never fear!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    The Americans have "faith based" science. What could go wrong?

    1. Re: never fear!! by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Funny

      > The Americans have "faith based" science. What could go wrong?

      We may not produce the best science, but at least we produce the best musi- uh, the best televis- uh, the best automob- uh...

      We're screwed, aren't we.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    2. Re: never fear!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We have zero inflation and a healthy economic growth rate

      You're being sarcastic, right? Inflation was up 1.2% last month, the highest in 25 years. Prices are up 4.7% from where they were a year ago, if you use the new CPI stats. If you use the old CPI stats (pre-clinton era), which include house prices, then inflation is closer to 7%. That's why gold is near an 18-year high.

      We have a housing bubble, record debt levels (national and individual), and a record low savings rate. Rising interest rates are going to start choking the economy...we're heading for stagflation. Since we're starting to see global inflation rising, things don't look very good for the rest of the world, either.

      Of course, maybe everything will magically turn around, just as there's a possibility that a cancer patient's tumor might start shrinking back to nothing. But, until that happens, I don't think "healthy" is the right word.

    3. Re: never fear!! by at_slashdot · · Score: 4, Funny

      "We have zero inflation"

      Apparently we also have faith-based economy.

      --
      "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -- Prof. Dumbledore
  2. Culture is the issue by LaughingCoder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In American society, being good at math or science is generally regarded as geeky or nerdy and is roundly disparraged. Small wonder American kids want nothing to do with it. Look at the popular TV shows - many are about lawyers, doctors, and law enforcement types. If there is a technically saavy person, they are made fun of and treated as quaint. Until this changes we can throw all the money we want at the problem, but it won't change much. Back in the 60's it was cool to be into science - largely thanks to the space race (and to a lesser degree the cold war). There was even a TV personality (Fred MacMurray in My Three Sons) who played an aeronautical engineer, and he was actually portrayed in a positive light! That's impossible to imagine in today's culture. Maybe if we had something akin to the space program, say a race to energy indepenence, we could once again make it cool to pursue a career in science, math, physics or engineering.

    --
    The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
    1. Re:Culture is the issue by going_the_2Rpi_way · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think the culture argument is mostly baloney, and the state of IP in the US contributes substantially.

      People 'do' science because they find it cool, not because they become rock stars. And there are of course science shows like "Numb3rs" (awful) and "CSI" and "Star Trek" and about a million others that try to some degree to spotlight science. The number of "Adventures in Engineering" or "Women in Engineering" camps has grown considerably over the last 10 years in these parts.

      Also changing is the degree of security around science (this has become a major issue to research and collaboration and being able to publish). The US has also historically had the incredible ability to draw the best minds from around the world. This is also changing as world opinion of the US drops and also as the security increases. Middle eastern researchers trying to work in the US face undue scrutiny from the authorities professionally and possibly prejdice in their family personally.

      Just my opinion of course...

    2. Re:Culture is the issue by ZippyKitty · · Score: 3, Insightful
      There was even a TV personality (Fred MacMurray in My Three Sons) who played an aeronautical engineer, and he was actually portrayed in a positive light!

      The husband on "Medium" is an Aerospace Engineer. My husband and I refer to the show as "that show with the aerospace engineer". He doesn't do much engineering though.

      Maybe if we are lucky we will get a show of our very own. :^)

      Just the same I don't really see culture as the issue. I was a nerd in highschool - and it was hell. Once I got to university, smart became good and life got a lot better. But there was never any doubt what I'd study, nor was there any doubt for most of the people in class. Do people really choose careers based on percieved "coolness" and money or do they do it because their aptitudes and interests lie that way?

      I know I chose for the later reason. My husband, who is also a gifted artist, decided to do engineering because it pays better (much) but he is also a gifted engineer, so it was an even choice in terms of interest and aptitude. Neither law nor medicine was a contender for either of us. Most of the lawyers I know actually did chose the field because of their beliefs and they really wanted to make a difference to people. Well there is the one guy who did corporate law - for the money. But he was truely about the money - in everything.

      I think the answer isn't "coolness". It is interest - how do you foster an interest? And I think that is done by showing children what engineers do. What questions they answer and how they do it. Showing the beauty in bridges and buildings. And explaining a little why they look like they do. And how traffic lights work.

      But what do I know - I'm still a nerd, and I still don't know how "normal" people think.

      ZK (okay I really wanted to be an astronaut - but there aren't many openings :^) )
      --
      Time flies like an arrow Fruit flies like a banana
    3. Re:Culture is the issue by king-manic · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think the culture argument is mostly baloney, and the state of IP in the US contributes substantially.

      People 'do' science because they find it cool, not because they become rock stars. And there are of course science shows like "Numb3rs" (awful) and "CSI" and "Star Trek" and about a million others that try to some degree to spotlight science. The number of "Adventures in Engineering" or "Women in Engineering" camps has grown considerably over the last 10 years in these parts.


      Actually, highschol culture is a huge reason why more people don't go into the sciences. That and the relatively low pay scales of scientists compared to other professions with similiar training periods.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    4. Re:Culture is the issue by ilyaaohell · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The whole point is that people who are nerdy are usually shy and socially inept. The "popular" kids are always very social and extroverted. Most people earning the big bucks in this world, aside from the lonely scientist in his lab, are all extremely extroverted. All people in positions of authority are very extroverted and social.

      Extroverted geniuses have a free ticket to wealth and a good social/family life. Everyone else has to work a bit at it, but generally the more social you are, the better your chances.

      --
      UNIX: A computer user is defined as a programmer. WINDOWS: A computer user is defined as a consumer.
    5. Re:Culture is the issue by fireboy1919 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Are you saying that shows about forensics and medicine aren't geeky? Have you watched any of those shows? They're all about the science!

      Ever watch MacGuyver? It had a pretty long run, and that wasn't too long ago. How about Jimmy Neutron? Main character, not comic relief, meant to be smart. Its still on.

      Its not impossible. Take off your nostalgia glasses and take a closer look. Its cooler to be a geek today than it has ever been. People wear the word with pride. Heck there are even companies that market the fact that they have them (Geek Squad, dial-a-geek).

      Its not the coolness we have to blame. People want to be smart more than they ever did. It's that

      1) Its hard
      2) We don't have enough people who are good at it to teach it.

      The same is true in other disciplines. Have you used AIM lately? Spelling, grammar, punctuation and vocabulary are pretty well shot. People don't have the ability to organize their thoughts into paragraphs (case in point: you). It seems as though we've come farther with those than with math.

      I don't think so. Its just that most of the other subjects are so much easier for so many people to understand. So they get a little farther with the same amount of effort. Therefore, they seem to be farther along.

      I have a hope that the coming of the age of the Internet is changing things. We have not had it very long, and I think that ultimately it is the internet that has changed the perception of geeks as cool. We will have to see how many teachers who are good at Math and science come out of it in the next two decades or so to see if it made a difference; its just too soon to tell.

      Of course, by then, we'll really know. Most of the teachers around today are about to retire.

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
  3. The more things change... by HanzoSpam · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I remember hearing this business about our losing our scientific edge even as Apollo was landing astronauts on the moon. In itself, I really don't worry about it much. This has been a nation mostly of crackpots and bumpkins right from day one.

    Our advantage never came from having the brightest of populations, it came from having an economic and legal system that placed few barriers in the paths of the talented, which also made this country an attractive place for talented foreigners to migrate to as well (think Andy Grove, Albert Einstein or Andrew Carnegie).

    I'm a lot more worried about losing the advantages our legal and economic system afforded us than I am about some egalitarian vision of providing advanced education to the Great Unwashed.

    --

    Progressivism: Parasites helping parasites to help themselves - to other people's stuff.
    1. Re:The more things change... by HanzoSpam · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Indeed, consider what America has in terms of natural resources, and what it has not gone through historically. Until recently, America had virtually limitless resources, be them land, petroleum, trees, ores, water, you name it.

      If natural resources were the key, Africa would be running circles around us, and Hong Kong would look like Albania. Is that what you see?

      Then there was slavery during the earlier years of the nation. That is what allowed America to flourish economically.

      Um, you might want to consider the slave states of the South were an agrarian society. It was the Northern states where slavery was prohibited that became the industrial power. Indeed, our greatest growth as an industrial power occured after slavery was eliminated.

      Now, don't forget that America also has not been seriously devastated by war in the past 150 years. In that timeframe Europe, Russia and Asia have had numerous destructive wars take place on their soil. They've had their infrastructure completely destroyed several times over.

      You might want to think about why they had those wars in Europe, whereas we didn't have them here. Largely, it was because Europe and Asia were infested with utopian movements like Communism, Socialism and Nazism, which didn't make much of an impression on the more individualistic United States.

      --

      Progressivism: Parasites helping parasites to help themselves - to other people's stuff.
  4. Dubya'd by 0x15 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let me get this staight, they're asking the guy who 'believes' that intelligent design should be given time in schools to improve our science curriculum?
    Obviously, this committee has a deathwish.

  5. I know who to blame by Kohath · · Score: 2, Funny

    But why is George Bush causing all these Slashdot dupes?

  6. More investiments are always welcome by gustgr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Last time I looked the US was the 1st on the list of scientific papers published by countries with more than 60% of the papers. The second position (United Kingdom IIRC) was really far from US in number of papers. It would be nice if not just one big expoend had the control of most scientific efforts, but many nations sharing this "privileged position".

    I indeed believe US industry should invest more in research (as all other nations should do, always, no matter what). But it's worthy noting that other nations are growing and maturing too, US can't avoid that. Besides that, this is not a fight. The benefits achieved from researches aims all humanity (at least it should be that way), so it isn't important who is at the top of the list, but it is important to support studies and researches, both in academia and in industry.

    1. Re:More investiments are always welcome by Alomex · · Score: 3, Informative

      Last time I looked the US was the 1st on the list of scientific papers published by countries with more than 60% of the papers.

      Then you haven't looked recently. The US is now below 50% of publications in many areas.

    2. Re:More investiments are always welcome by drooling-dog · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Last time I looked the US was the 1st on the list of scientific papers published by countries with more than 60% of the papers.

      Ah, but look at how many of those papers are written by scientists that have come here from places like India and China, and look at how many students in U.S. science & engineering graduate programs are from elsewhere. It's been a very good thing for us to have been such a magnet for so much of the world's scientific talent, but since 9/11 the Powers That Be have done everything in their power to cut off the flow. Now just who is going to be hurt by that in the long run?

  7. Re:Choosing between religion fanaticism and scienc by Hao+Wu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Dropouts are not reading the bible. They are playing X-box, vandalizing their neighborhood, and buying gangster rap CDs marketed to suburban kids.

    --
    I suggest you read Slashdot
  8. Re:Don't we improve in other domains? by Propagandhi · · Score: 4, Funny

    Exactly! I picture our wealth of good lawyers as a gigantic tick (or other parasite, if you prefer) that suckles off the rest of society. We've let it grow, thinking that it was merely sucking out the bad stuff and keeping everything else in order (we were wrong, but whatever).

    Now the tick is HUGE.. way bigger than the rest of us (still working with my metaphor here, so the rest of us includes everyone from Engineers to Artists.. basically the whole of the real economy; everyone that actually generates capital). As a result, we're practically dead. Supporting this beast for so long has taken too much out of us and workers overseas are now at an advantage.

    Sounds like a pretty dire situation, right? WRONG! Once we're nearly dead the lawyers will see these juicy targets overseas and worm their way over to them leaving us to recover from our near fatal leaching. Once the lawyers are distracted we can make laws with which to control them and then wield them on the other countries until the end days! I'm telling you, this apparently crippling development is all but ensuring that America will be an economic powerhouse for centuries to come!

  9. Re:Choosing between religion fanaticism and scienc by Kohath · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's time for the US to choose between a reliance on religious fanaticism or science.

    How would I recognize one of these fanatics? Would they

    - Obsessively post the same message over and over again?
    - Try to make every topic of discussion, no matter how unconnected, a forum for their views?
    - Consistently demonize other points of view?
    - Counter well-meaning factual arguments with name-calling?
    - Use guilt by association to try to discredit their unbelievers?
    - Use fear as a motivator?

    I sure am worried about all the fanaticism. I hope I can recognize it when I see it.

  10. New invention - great market potential by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Funny
    in 2001 U.S. industry spent more on tort litigation than on research and development
    So what US industry is saying is that there is a HUGE market for "Mr. LEGAL BEAGLE" software.
    Okay, Captains of Industry!

    Tired of spending big bux on lawyers?

    Subscribe to our Mr. Legal Beagle software service, and kiss your torts goodbye!

    Now, instead of counting the dollars wasted every minute you talk to an attorney, you can do a web-based "interview" with our legal AI, who will analyse your case and prepare any necessary briefs.

    When it comes time to go to court, just bring your laptop and a wireless internet connection, and Mr. Legal Beagle will argue your case for you.

    Choose from 7 exciting avatars - including Beezlebub (our most popular), Snoopy, and Darl McBride (insanity pleas). More added every month.

    Extra services - Mr. Bribe and Mr. BreakYourLegs - for when you want to "negociate" a "settlement." At an extra cost, of course.

    So what are you waiting for? Don't waste another penny on lawyers. Get Mr. Legal Beagle TODAY. Before your competitors or customers do, and sue YOU!
  11. Better teachers desperately needed by Raul654 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    (Preface - I'm doing a PhD in computer engineering. Both my parents are teachers [high school - one teaches languge, the other biology], and it looks like I'll be teaching an undergraduate computer-engineering course within the next year).

    The BIG problem is that the quality of math and science teaching has gone to hell in a hand-basket. I've taken dozens and dozens of science, engineering, and math courses, and *maybe* 8-10 of them had good teachers (only two of them below the university level). The teachers are failing to adaquentely instruct the students.
     
    Over the last 3-4 years my entire department has seen a rather dramatic drop in the competency of the students at the higher levels. The students aren't getting dumber, they are just less capable - they don't the material as well as they should, and you can't teach them everything in a 15 week course. I put almost all of the blame on the teachers they had as freshmen and in high school (and before that, even - I remember seeing in a National Science Teacher Assocation flyer that most studies show the big "black hole" in science education occurs around the 5th-8th grade)

    --


    To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
    --E.C. Stanton
    1. Re:Better teachers desperately needed by digitalhermit · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I tutored math (calc, algebra, stats) up until about five years ago. It was worse than when I tutored in college some ten years ago. One of the sadder stories was trying to show an 'A' student how to do arithmetic. He got out of high school with a good GPA but couldn't multiply decimals.

      The problem goes a lot further than bad teachers, of which there are many. All the politicians do their yearly vote-grubbing by promising to improve education. In Florida, the current governor got elected with lots of education promises but now is saying that class size doesn't matter and small class sizes are not needed. We had the Lottery put in with assurances that dollars from the Lottery wouldn't replace other funds. Guess what? A few years later, lots of money was *stolen* from education to fund other pork barrel projects. We spend hundreds of millions building stadiums but scoff at putting more money into the school system. Developers are allowed to build million dollar (the Florida real estate market is booming) housing projects with government tax concessions yet are not forced to fund schools in the new developments?

      Why? I think a big reason is that kids can't vote. Plus it probably makes it easier to keep the established government in power if the people can't do math and see through the bullshit.

      Politicians suck. All politicians. Both parties.

  12. Well... by linguae · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...if our corporations were ran by people with science and engineering backgrounds who cared about long-term research and development rather than ran by MBAs with BAs in Medieval History and Philosophy who can't differentiate a simple function or write a line of code, and who care more about short-term profits and $$$, then perhaps we'll see some more scientific and engineering progress in this country. Witness the downfall of Bell Labs, for example. Bell Labs was very innovative and many of its research projects led to things that we take for granted today (the very operating system that I'm typing this message on now, is FreeBSD, which is a direct descendant of Bell Labs' Unix [if you ignore the fact that the code was completely rewritten]). Then, some person who knows nothing about science and engineering took control and cut its funding to its knees. Now Bell Labs is very small, and that same dummy went on to destroy HP in a similar fashion....

    The education system isn't looking that great, either. Our secondary schools are also failing to teach the basic science and mathematics needed to produce students capable of succeeding in an science or engineering field. College students looking at future career prospects might end up switching to law or business, because the future looks brighter for them. After all, we're outsourcing a great deal of the engineering jobs.

    This country is fast on its way of becoming a country full of rich lawyers and managers, and poor McDonalds employees and janitors. But who will be exploring science and developing new technologies? The Indians and Chinese, of course. Their corporate culture seems to care much more about the future, and besides, many of our corporations are using them to do our non-law/managerial work.

    If we want to turn back the tide, the corporate culture needs to change, and we need more CEOs who have science and engineering backgrounds who care about science and engineering. The school system in this country also needs to be radically improved.

  13. Study hard, master your profession, get shit by Simonetta · · Score: 4, Informative

    I can't believe that the CEO of Intel is worried about the loss of US scientific positioning. He does everything possible to drive people OUT of the technical and engineering professions.

        This is the guy who's company insists that you have college degrees and take a drug test before they will even consider you for a temp position working in any technicial position in his company.

        Did I say temp? Goodness me, I meant perma-temp. Work for years as a 'contract' employee with no health insurance, job security, advancement, or benefits.

        Intel sucks. Check out the FACEIntel website for more information. I spent a week at Intel ten years ago. I sure hope that I never have to go back there. Unless you are one of the top twenty people in the world at what you do, Intel is a total dead-end company. And if you are one of the top twenty people in the world in your speciality, why the hell would you want to work at Intel? It's a 'sixth sense' company; already dead but doesn't know it.

    1. Re:Study hard, master your profession, get shit by Colonel+Panic · · Score: 2, Informative

      Intel sucks. I spent a week at Intel ten years ago. I sure hope that I never have to go back there.

      You spent a week at Intel 10 years ago (presumably in one group) and you can difinitively say that it's still like it was then all over the whole company?

      I've been a 'perma-temp' a couple of times there in the last 4 years. There are good groups and there are bad groups. good managers and very bad managers.

      Though I do agree with you that Intel's policies (and the policies of many other tech companies) are driving people out of engineering and driving young people away from even considering engineering. Why bust your rear to get an engineering degree only to have your job sent over seas when you can glide though an easier degree and basically end up about as well off as an engineering major does? The kids aren't dumb.

    2. Re:Study hard, master your profession, get shit by Courageous · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There are good groups and there are bad groups. good managers and very bad managers.

      People who don't know big companies, don't realize that the truly large ones are more like many companies under one name. I work in one of America's top 10 defense companies; when the market changes around a bit, we actually shop for job (resume passing, interviews, and all) INSIDE the company. The differences in groups and even cultures is quite large.

      C//

  14. Re:Choosing between religion fanaticism and scienc by Kohath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's interesting you've brought up "intelligent design" when the topic really isn't about that at all and it's not mentioned in any of the linked articles.

  15. curiosity by fermion · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I think the US just have different priorities, and is having trouble competing in a more connected world. One theory suggests that the great US university was grew because a combination of interesting event. First, too many rich kids in the new world would die of plague when sent to England, so we started setting up 'good' schools here. Second, as we became industrialized, we had the cash to entice investors to come to the new world. At least one stayed because it was easier than going back. The greatest push for public higher education, however, was likely WWII, in which we had all these farmboys coming back with not much to do. And the unique thing about is that they had seen the world outside of their town. They had a perspective greater than their parents, and were curious. They knew what hard work was, and the advantages of not having to do the hard work. So they got degrees in engineering, math and science. And many made the discoveries that made the US a leader.

    At the same time, during and after WWII, many great minds were coming to the relatively freedom of the US. It is often say the Allies won WWII because we had the smarter Germans. This continued to the end of the the 20th century, when changes in the US and foreign rules, the increasing cost of a US education, and the availability of other options, reduced the influx of foreign talent.

    Even with all this, I think there are three critical factors that makes the US less competitive, beyond the general presence of anti-intellectualism and the president that is proud that he cannot read complex prose. The first is that funding priorities are focused more on war and less on education, therefore most Universities have less money with which to educate. Second, though I think the WWII vets communicated the wonder of the world to their kids, the grandkids do not seem to understand. I know too many kids of successful people decline to the bum slacker status, never creating anything more complex than a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

    Third, we are not communicated the wonder of the world to average kids. They grow up believing that a worker and consumer is all they can be. That is what most will be, but some can be more, and it is these resources that we are wasting. And as the US returns to protectionism, there will be less chance for a kid to be exposed to the wonder of the world. Worse, i see television shows where contestants say the most wonderful thing they have done in their life is to hold their breaths for a couple minutes, or stay still while bugs crawl on. I often did the later when I was a kid, and I never thought is was so great. What is great is launching a satellite, or helping a factory stay in the US, or helping a company stay afloat so those jobs are saved, and more are created. or a new school of art, or a new way of communicating information. And everyone will say a normal person cannot do these things, but normal people do all things everyday. All anyone thinks can be done is new and more complex ways of stealing money or cheating on taxes so our boys do not have the equipment they need, the medical care, or the education facilities when they return.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  16. Playing with technology by Rickler · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's strange that kids in high school must take 4 years of English, 3 years of math and only 2 years of science. I always though math and science where more important then reading Shakespeare; but the MAN doesn't seem to think so.

    --

    The human race is artificial intelligence created using object orientated programming.
  17. Re:Choosing between religion fanaticism and scienc by zerus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're kidding right? You think the US is run by religious fanatics? You're comparing the US to the Taliban? Where the government uses force to convert its subjects into practicing a certain religion? Apparently you're falling prey to buzz words in the media. The religious right, the right wing christian conservatives, revamping the country to puritanical colonialism all while doing mission statements and working on innovating their new and improved synergies. There is a jumble of all faiths running the US, many of the divisions of christianity, judaism, atheism, islam, etc. There is no state sponsored church, religion, or belief system that citizens are forced to join. It is ridiculous to think that the multitude in the US would follow a state designed religion in the first place. Look at the backlash over putting stickers on biology textbooks saying that evolution is only a theory, common sense is dominating ridiculous ideas. It isn't religious fanaticism running this country. It's apathy. Apathy towards hard work in school. We'd rather watch mind numbing reality tv than pick up a book or try to learn something new. Kids get passed to the next grade no matter if they work hard or not because we wouldn't want to hurt the little darling's self esteem, so the kids who would otherwise make an effort end up slacking off because they're guaranteed to pass anyway so why bother working hard? Why go out of your way to do well if you can just get by. There are plenty of would-be scientists out there in gradeschool that have no motivation because teachers don't reward diligence and effort, instead they spend more time trying to enforce discipline to a bunch of kids who don't care. What can a teacher do if the parents don't care in the first place? We constantly demonize teachers who discipline their students. How many times have you seen a parent go and complain that their kid was given detention or a bad grade when the kid deserved it? The biggest farce is the no child left behind act. Some kids need to be left behind. School isn't for everyone. Teach some kids a trade or useful everyday skills instead of forcing them to memorize shakespeare or other equally useless facts to them. Teach them how to work a cash register or fix a car. Don't waste their or the teacher's time by forcing the teacher to remediate the uninterested ones. Cater schools to kids who want to learn. All we owe people in this country is the chance to succeed, we don't have to make them do it if they don't want to. Let them fail if they don't want to put in effort, that way the teachers can focus on the students who want to learn, and ultimately schools will be better. Yeah I ranted, I'm just sick of seeing kids who have potential be held back because of other people.

  18. I would narrow this down by Julian+Morrison · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's not even your general culture. It's your public education system, which sucks every imaginable mode of ass. It is a union-captured mediocrity-ruled Prussian-designed system absolutely intended to hammer the individual flat to the collective.

    If you have a child in the USA, home-school them. Go hungry, rather than send them to government school.

  19. Yep. That Legal System Sure Doesn't Get in the Way by weston · · Score: 2, Insightful

    " it came from having an economic and legal system that placed few barriers in the paths of the talented"

    Judging from the fact that we're now spending more on legal -- in part due to intellectual property insanity and increased wrangling over who "owns" what ideas -- it's just possible the legal system is becoming part of the problem.

    But hey, if potential personal profit means arguing over what's already been invented a la SCO instead of actually getting out and inventing things, why should we get in the way?

  20. Re:Yep. That Legal System Sure Doesn't Get in the by HanzoSpam · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Judging from the fact that we're now spending more on legal -- in part due to intellectual property insanity and increased wrangling over who "owns" what ideas -- it's just possible the legal system is becoming part of the problem.

    I understand that it's morphing into something that's becoming part of the problem. That's exactly why I said I was worried about it. This country is becoming a place that's no longer an attractive destination for the talented and entrepreneurial. If you've noticed, our laws and economic system have changed quite a bit over the last several decades.

    As I said originally, it was never our brilliant population (*smirk*) that accounted for our success.

    --

    Progressivism: Parasites helping parasites to help themselves - to other people's stuff.
  21. Re:Choosing between religion fanaticism and scienc by king-manic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    - Obsessively post the same message over and over again?
    - Try to make every topic of discussion, no matter how unconnected, a forum for their views?
    - Consistently demonize other points of view?
    - Counter well-meaning factual arguments with name-calling?
    - Use guilt by association to try to discredit their unbelievers?
    - Use fear as a motivator?


    That sums up the bush administration and their supporters nicely. Good job.

    --
    "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
  22. if America suddenly started by alizard · · Score: 2, Interesting
    producing more people with degrees in science and technology, just who in the USA will be hiring them? And for science careers, just what are they going to get paid? Rates of pay are good pointers towards what a society really values, and it's clear that science and technology aren't valued. The "anti-geek" attitudes in high school are more likely to be effect, not cause.

    The average person who doesn't have a serious interest in a subject looks for a degree in something that will get him a career. So... we graduate lots of MBAs and lawyers.

    People who are truly interested in science and technology will find a way to get educated in it, and the ones with a sense of self-preservation will be learning Chinese, Indian, and EU languages.

    Make the jobs available and the expanding demand for the appropriate classes will cause more faculty to be hired... problem solved.

    But I don't really consider this a problem, since the people who are in a position to DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS aren't interested in putting their own bucks on the table. Just ours.

  23. Neal Stephenson on science in the U.S. by FleaPlus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    (Below is a copy of a comment I made the last time this story was posted. If slashdot editors can dupe, I should be able to as well :)

    Last year Reason had an interview with Neal Stephenson (author of Snow Crash, Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver, and other fine novels), where he was asked about the state of science in America. What he said resonated with me quite a bit:

    The success of the U.S. has not come from one consistent cause, as far as I can make out. Instead the U.S. will find a way to succeed for a few decades based on one thing, then, when that peters out, move on to another. Sometimes there is trouble during the transitions. So, in the early-to-mid-19th century, it was all about expansion westward and a colossal growth in population. After the Civil War, it was about exploitation of the world's richest resource base: iron, steel, coal, the railways, and later oil.

    For much of the 20th century it was about science and technology. The heyday was the Second World War, when we had not just the Manhattan Project but also the Radiation Lab at MIT and a large cryptology industry all cooking along at the same time. The war led into the nuclear arms race and the space race, which led in turn to the revolution in electronics, computers, the Internet, etc. If the emblematic figures of earlier eras were the pioneer with his Kentucky rifle, or the Gilded Age plutocrat, then for the era from, say, 1940 to 2000 it was the engineer, the geek, the scientist. It's no coincidence that this era is also when science fiction has flourished, and in which the whole idea of the Future became current. After all, if you're living in a technocratic society, it seems perfectly reasonable to try to predict the future by extrapolating trends in science and engineering.

    It is quite obvious to me that the U.S. is turning away from all of this. It has been the case for quite a while that the cultural left distrusted geeks and their works; the depiction of technical sorts in popular culture has been overwhelmingly negative for at least a generation now. More recently, the cultural right has apparently decided that it doesn't care for some of what scientists have to say. So the technical class is caught in a pincer between these two wings of the so-called culture war. Of course the broad mass of people don't belong to one wing or the other. But science is all about diligence, hard sustained work over long stretches of time, sweating the details, and abstract thinking, none of which is really being fostered by mainstream culture.

  24. Here's a quick and dirty idea to improve by multiplexo · · Score: 2, Interesting
    the American educational system. Require that all teachers, all professors at public Universities, all elected officials and all appointed judicial offcicials send their kids to public schools for K-12 education. No more Bill Clinton and Al Gore going to Washington D.C and sending their kids off to private schools (Sidwell Friends, St. Albans) that are whiter than the Klan rallies that Al's daddy used to attend. No more Democratic politicians taking fuckloads of money from the teachers unions and then showing what they really think by sending their little darlings off to private schools, and if you're a public school teacher then you shouldn't have any right to your job if you're sending your kid to a private school, by doing so you're admitting that you're doing a shitty job. Quick, dirty and easy to implement. I'm not saying that this would fix all of the problems with our educational system, but I see no reason why our public servants should have the option of opting out of the public education system that we pay for. Let them start eating their own dog food as well as forcing it on the rest of us.

    --
    cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
    1. Re:Here's a quick and dirty idea to improve by linguae · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Or, why don't we get rid of the dogfood in the first place? Imagine if all K-12 schools were private, and the government completely paid for the education for the poor and gave middle-class students vouchers that paid for it partially. This will finally give all parents access to "free-market education," where they get to choose the schools that best meet their child's needs, rather than be forced to go to a certin public school because it is in your neighborhood (which hinders poor children a lot, because the schools in their neighborhoods are generally pretty poor in quality). The parents would also be "stockholders" of their child(ren)'s school. There will be much less federal and state government bureaucracy, and the parents would have a greater say about what is happening with the school, since the parents vote with their dollars. Schools will also benefit a bit, becuase they can fine-tune their curricula to match their school's purpose. They don't have to deal with state- and federal-mandated standardized tests (which makes the schools more focused on having their students pass tests rather than learning the material, which means two different things). Finally, the salaries of teachers will be much more competitive, since the schools now have to compete for students and excellent teachers. Good schools and good teachers will be rewarded in the marketplace, and bad schools and bad teachers will not.

      The liberals and socialists reading this are probably just shaking their heads right now, but I have a feeling that this idea is what this country (the United States) needs to improve its education system. The state and federal governments have done a horrible job with educating its children, especially those of poor and disadvantaged backgrounds. I believe that the free market and vouchers for those who need help paying for it can work much better than any government department could.

  25. Wrong. It is $$$ by Ogemaniac · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There was a recent wide-spread report indicating prestige of various professions, and scientists were number one! Lack of respect is not what is driving kids away from science, it is lack of cash. As I have posted here numerous times, a smart person can make a lot more money in law, business, or medicine, all without having to stay in school until one is 30 (or older, depending on the number of post-docs you have to grind through).

    Unless this changes, we aren't going to have lots of home-grown scientists. It is that simple.

    I am a chemistry post-doc at a highly-regarded university, and have every reason to consider myself a highly intelligent person. I work my ass off (60h/week...a REAL 60h). I am nearing my 31st birthday.

    I have never made more than $22,000 in a single year.

    Do you see the problem?

    And I won't even bother to elaborate on how slaving 60h+ each week in a virtually all-male environment inhibits one's social life.

  26. I have a better idea: Get rid of lawyers by ccmay · · Score: 3, Insightful
    In a press release they call for the immediate increase of teachers and advanced research and development, citing that 'in 2001 U.S. industry spent more on tort litigation than on research and development.'

    That doesn't surprise me, but it should be a clue to all decent and sensible people that things have to change radically. Let's push for the kind of tort reform that will put 90% of the filthy blood-sucking pirates out of business.

    The American legal system is a f**king disgrace. No, scratch that, it's a positive menace to the American way of life. We have turned into a nation of paranoid, selfish sissies, thanks to the pond scum of the trial bar. And the defense attorneys are no better; they don't want the gravy train to end either. I want to annihilate them. I want their children to starve and their wives to go barefoot. I want to cut their dirty greedy balls off with a rusty butter knife.

    Most of all, I want to sweep away a thousand years of arcane gibberish and oppression of the common man, tear the legal system into itty bitty pieces, and rebuild it from the ground up according to principles of logic and common sense and brevity. The greedy vermin of the Bar have been a plague on humanity since the time of the Pharisees, and it has to stop NOW.

    -ccm

    --
    Too much Law; not enough Order.
  27. Hollywood is not reality by AB3A · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One thing about most of these studies concerning the quality of US education is that it is often influenced by general perceptions from Hollywood movies.

    The reason the US has managed to achieve all the things it has in the worlds of science is because we generally leave smart people alone and give them a relatively free hand to pursue the answers they seek. This is not a race for education. This is not a race for money. This is a race for freedom to explore.

    This is not about hacking code. It's not about secret laboratories where diabolical experiments are performed. It's not about eggheads who decide to get even with the bullies who beat them up. It's about freedom to pursue what we nerds have always wanted to explore. Hollywood doesn't get it. It's also not about homegrown smart people.

    In some ways we're still ahead. In others we're doomed. I'm particularly dismayed by the religious right's policy influence with medical research. However, this country still has silicon valley. In fact, it not only has silicon valley, it has Research Triangle Park, the suburbs of DC, Los Alamos National Labs, and similar collaborative institutions near most major cities.

    Most other countries would give anything to have these informal and pragmatic social institutions where results are rewarded and where failures are detected early and aren't pursued. But no. Those countries have entrusted their governments or large industry groups to guide them. Sometimes it bears fruit. But the solutions aren't usually radical. The truly revolutionary discoveries are often kept on the shelf for further research. Big organizations don't usually know better.

    Now we can squeal and holler about the rotten quality of US educational standards. And it's true. The average education received in public institutions frankly isn't good for much. What the US does differently is that it rewards talent. And by so doing, it often attracts talent from overseas. Yes, we have our own homegrown talent too. But we also count at least as many first generation immigrants among their number.

    Yes, we had Thomas Edison. But we also count Nicholai Tesla along with him. We had Richard Feynnman, but we also count Paul Dirac with him too. We had Robert Goddard, but we also had Werner Von Braun. The Sciences here in the US got a huge head start from these first generation immigrants.

    The only thing we need to ask is whether we're still encouraging and rewarding good work. If we are, then we aren't losing ground.

    Hollywood can can portray these scientists as silly, just as they were portrayed in so many B Movies from the 1950s. No, I wish the reputations were different, but Hollywood is really nothing more than a place for Art students to get even with all of us smug and supercillious engineers and scientists. Most of Hollywood is filled with pretty people, most of couldn't learn enough to be good at much of anything. Thankfully, looking good is nearly all there is to a good career in Hollywood. It's nice that they can get rich doing what they like. I wish it didn't have to be at the expense of the reputation of another pillar of society. But that's no different than it's ever been.

    --
    Nearly fifty percent of all graduates come from the bottom half of the class!
  28. Re:Wrong. It is $$$ by Courageous · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As I have posted here numerous times, a smart person can make a lot more money in law, business, or medicine, all without having to stay in school until one is 30 (or older, depending on the number of post-docs you have to grind through).

    Err. Well, I'm in this troubled spot: agreeing with you, but needing to quibble over some details. Perhaps you aren't including CS in science (old quip, "anything calling itself a science isn't"). Be that as it may:

    My wife is physician. I know ALOT of physicians. Methinks you're underestimating the time commitment involved in getting started in Medicine. Other thing: it's not unusual for a physician to end residency with well over $100K in medical school debt.

    I'm a software "engineer". My wife and I are the same age. If you subtract her debt service from her income, I outearn her, and that's before you add the rolling residual income from previous investments into that formula.

    C//

  29. Confessions of an Engineering Washout by rm3friskerFTN · · Score: 2, Interesting
    A commentary over at Tech Central Station resonated with my own peculiar science & technology resume.

    "Confessions of an Engineering Washout" by Douglas Kern

    I am an engineering washout. I left a chemical engineering major in shame and disgust to pursue the softer pleasures of a liberal arts education. No, do not pity me, gentle reader; do not assuage your horror and dismay at my degradation by flinging a filthy quarter into my shiny tin cup. Instead, hear my story, and learn why the United States lacks engineers ....[continued]
    My generalization is that most Professors/Instructors/TAs neither want to teach nor want to learn how to teach even though their primary occupation is teaching. Consequently the USA will continue to have issues churning out science & engineering graduates.

    Recommendations based on memories twenty-years ago:

    + Professors/Instructors/TAs should watch a video tapes of themselves giving lectures or providing assistance during office hours

    + Professors/Instructors/TAs office-hours should occur at reasonable science & engineering times (e.g. immediately after class & late in the evening)

    + Professors/Instructors/TAs should verify that the curriculum at 'SmartyPantsU' is self-consistent. For example, does 2nd year calc really assist with 3rd year electro-dynamics and why the one year gap between learning the subject matter (vector calc) and applying the subject matter (E&M vector calc)?

    + Professors/Instructors/TAs should be engaged in small-lab research that can actively utilize the services of undergrads

    + Continued employment of Professors/Instructors/TAs to include metrics (1) post graduation surveys of alumni at one-year, five-year, ten-year points (2) subject matter GRE scores of graduates (3) end-of-course critiques (4) ???

    + Eliminate Tenure???

    --

    I believe Juanita

    1. Re:Confessions of an Engineering Washout by jim_deane · · Score: 3, Insightful

      + Eliminate Tenure???

      Great idea! First, though, you will need to raise salaries across the board to compensate. Tenure currently compensates for the lower salaries in academe.

      Otherwise what you'll do is drive those who are able to work outside of academe right out into the non-academic jobs, leaving few to teach at Universities. This will ultimately give them the same job security as they have in the tenure system, because no one will be educated in their fields to compete with them for jobs.

      Jim

    2. Re:Confessions of an Engineering Washout by gekhond · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Perfessers this, perfessers that, come on... Do you have any idea of how tough that job is? (Hint: it's not primarily about the teaching. You can only believe that because you think a universitiy is or should be some kind of vocational school)

      Your suggestions are indicative of a prevalent tendency among students to blame everyone for their failures but themselves. And why shouldn't they? Those lazy professors are easy scapegoats in a society which despises its intellectuals. Ever considered that professors and instructors (all highly educated and skilled individuals) may not want to teach precisely because of having to deal with BS like this?

      I propose to have failing students watch videotapes of themselves in class. Perhaps they'll find us an answer to the question of where our best people are and why they are not training the next generation of scientists and engineers.

  30. Re:Choosing between religion fanaticism and scienc by mbrother · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If it deserves a mention, it is to ridicule it as non-science. The "blind watchmaker" is NOT anything close to intelligent design. The reason that scientists like myself slam this so hard is because it's patently ridiculous as science. So, someone believes something...does that make it science? A lot of people believe people are good natured, so should we teach it as science? Of course not. You may think you're being fair, but the only responsible way to teach it is as junk, and that would cause even more problems than just ignoring it. Discuss it a sociology or philosophy class, if you must, but not science class. If you do, expect to be teaching kids that the holocaust might not have happened in history class.

    --
    Professor of Astronomy, Author of Spider Star & Star Dragon (Tor)
  31. 33%, not 60% by Dire+Bonobo · · Score: 5, Informative

    > Last time I looked the US was the 1st on the list of scientific
    > papers published by countries with more than 60% of the papers.

    Then you must not have looked since about 1960. As of 2005, the US published only 33% of world science papers, significantly less than the EU (38%) and only half again more than Asia-Pacific (25%). source, more detail

    What's interesting to note is that the EU's share of world publications has increased by almost 20% in the last 20 years (from 32%) and Asia's by almost 100%, but the USA's has fallen by almost 20% (from 40% to 33%).

    In other words, the US has been losing its tech edge for at least the last 20 years.

  32. Slave Labor H1B by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If these students get job offers and pass a security screening test, they should automatically get work permits and expedited residence status. If they cannot get a job, their visas should expire.

    This kind of thinking is why we are competing against desparate slave tech labor. I worked with one H1B who was only paid once every six months. Companies know they can pull this kind of shit with 3rd-world workers and that is why they liked them. Blame our education all you want, but I've seen the real story with my own eyes. Intel spinners can go to hell.

  33. US is not the only one... by interactive_civilian · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Julian Morrison said:
    system absolutely intended to hammer the individual flat to the collective.
    That sounds a LOT like the Japanese school system. Every nail gets pounded. Don't stick your head up or it will get cut off.

    Of course, perhaps it is not ruled by mediocrity, because everyone is kind of expected to excel. But there is no reward for excelling more than others, and socially speaking, one receives punishment (through lack of recognition, ridicule by peers, pressure to not out-compete, etc...sound familiar?) for breaking the mould.

    Mind you this is not only in schools, but in companies as well.

    However, Japanese science and math education are ahead of the US. My 10th graders are learning math that I personally didn't learn until 11th grade in the States (Trig./Advanced math) and a lot of my peers didn't learn until 12th grade. These same 10th graders are doing biology that I was studying in 12th grade Bio.II in HS and Bio.I in University. They are also learning physics (and having calculus taught in those classes), which a.) wasn't integrated when I was in school (not to toot my own horn, but I was the only one in my class that figured that calculus and physics were completely related) and b.) wasn't even offered until 12th grade in my HS.

    So, I'm not disagreeing with the parent post. Just giving another perspective on it. It seems the main problem in the US is the above mentioned "ruled by mediocrity". There is too much playing to the lowest common denominator rather than pushing everyone up to a (IMHO) reasonable level.

    I hope that changes.

    P.S. To give some perspective, I graduated from HS in Pennsylvania in 1996 and graduated university with a B.S. in Ecology/Marine Biology in Florida in 2000. I don't know well about the current US education system except that the FCATs (Florida's standardized test for 10th graders) seemed incredibly easy for students at that level. More insight would definitely be appreciated. :-)

    --
    "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
  34. Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. by interactive_civilian · · Score: 2, Insightful
    And the thinking behind my subject line is a big part of the problem (I hate that quote, by the way).

    fireboy1919 insightfully said:

    2) We don't have enough people who are good at it to teach it.
    And to me, the problem is that there is not enough incentive for those who "can do it" to teach it. Teaching salaries (in the US) are not high. The hours are long, but not as long as some lines of work. However, there is a lot of shit in the education system that good teachers have to deal with and the low pay makes it not worth dealing with. Teachers not getting proper incentive and good teachers not getting the respect they deserve...these are the main part of the problem in my opinion.

    There needs to be more incentive for "those who can" to teach! There also needs to be some better standards to ensure that those who can't, and especially those who can't teach, don't teach.

    Of course (disclaimer: saying this as a teacher), it takes a special type of person to teach what you know well. I had a lot of professors in University that could do their work very well, but couldn't teach worth a crap.

    So, the main problem (to me) is finding someone who both knows his/her stuff, AND can teach that to others. These people when they are found need to be given incentives to teach (good pay, respect).

    IMNSHO, it should be difficult to become a teacher, but the incentives should make that difficulty worth facing. Otherwise, the trend of mediocre teachers will continue.

    --
    "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
  35. No big deal by gronofer · · Score: 2, Insightful
    As long as scientific advances are still made, it doesn't matter much whether the research takes place in the United States or in other countries such as India and China.

    Scientists are basically the same throughout the world. They are the original creaters of culture based on shared interest instead of nationalism.

    Science will tend to follow production, product development, and engineering, and the shift away from the USA is already decades old.

    Disclaimer: I don't live in the US, which is why it's no big deal to me, although it was nice to have the results available in English.

  36. Engineer Wages in Other Countries vs the U.S by TheNarrator · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In the U.S a good engineer makes $100,000 a year. Somebody who works at Mcdonalds makes $15,000 a year.

    In India a good engineer makes $40,000 a year. Somebody who works at the local noodle shop makes $1000 a year.

    So if we had a similar wage differential in the U.S an engineer would make $600,000 a year. If engineers made that much I am positive that there would be a huge rush for people to be engineers. It all comes down to simple economics.