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The Pitfalls and Perks of Adopting a New Standard

Monta writes to tell us that IBM DeveloperWorks has an interesting article about the pros and cons of 'adopting a standard before it becomes one'. From the article: "Whether a standard will succeed and be widely adopted is ambiguous at first, regardless of who endorses it -- a major player or a fringe element. So if most people don't like to welcome the new guy, why would they put all their eggs in a standards basket when that basket might not exist tomorrow?"

30 of 87 comments (clear)

  1. Yeah... by GillBates0 · · Score: 5, Funny
    Whether a standard will succeed and be widely adopted is ambiguous at first, regardless of who endorses it -- a major player or a fringe element

    ...we really need a standard way of adopting a new standard.

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
    1. Re:Yeah... by Tribbin · · Score: 3, Funny

      There already is.

      1. Wait for a good open standard to come out.
      2. Embrace.
      3. Extend incompatibly.
      4. PROFIT!!!

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    2. Re:Yeah... by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You forgot a step.

      1.5) Ignore it while calling yourself "the industry standard".

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    3. Re:Yeah... by Fred_A · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I know this was meant as a jest, but we already have one and it works too (or more truthfully, it used to).

      It goes like this :

      1. Write an Internet-Draft RFC
      2. Implement (twice) the standard to be and deploy it
      3. Create a working group and document how your two different implementations work great together
      4. Write a Draft-Standard RFC
      5. Write a mail rule to redirect flames to /dev/null
      6. Reword your Draft Standard and write a Proposed-Standard RFC
      7. Empty /dev/null which overflows from all the flames that were dumped into it
      8. ???
      9. Wait until your Proposed-Standard is upgraded to Internet-Standard status.
      10. Profit ! (not)

        So you won't get rich, but you'll get famous !
        Well, not exactly famous, but lots of people will have heard of you. And they'll hate you. So it's a bit like being rich. Just without the money.
      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
  2. Sticking to an old standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny
    So if most people don't like to welcome the new guy


    I, for one, welcome the new guy!

    1. Re:Sticking to an old standard by MrDrBob · · Score: 3, Funny

      You must be new here.

  3. Sometimes... by Stanistani · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Getting a product to market with a new technology can advance the adoption of a standard.

    Chicken, meet egg.

    Of course it's a gamble...
    but that's one way to make the big money.

    1. Re:Sometimes... by Myu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Getting a product to market with a new technology can advance the adoption of a standard.

      It is, arguably, the only way to advance it. No matter how efficient a standard is at its job, it doesn't become "Standard" until successful implementation.

      --
      Myu: ... The map's upside down...
    2. Re:Sometimes... by ergo98 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Getting a product to market with a new technology can advance the adoption of a standard.

      This is true not only for standards that spend years wallowing through standards boards - someone releases an implementation, and it lights a fire under their asses to get something out the door - but also by creating de facto standards that advance the state of the art. Most of the innovations didn't come from large and wide standards bodies, but rather by a couple of people who did something that was adopted and spread. To bring up an evil example, AJAX is founded on a completely proprietary piece of COM functionality accessible via scripting in Internet Explorer. Pretty soon it became a part of the standard.

      Coincidentally I wrote about this yesterday.

  4. Examples by Bogtha · · Score: 5, Informative

    For one example of pitfalls and perks, consider stylesheets. Netscape threw their weight behind JSSS, Internet Explorer threw their weight behind CSS. CSS got taken up by the W3C, JSSS got chucked. Internet Explorer 3 was first with CSS support, Netscape 3 had none, and Netscape 4's CSS support was an abysmal wrapper around JSSS.

    Another example is XSLT; Microsoft implemented a draft version, and ended up with support that was incompatible with the final specification and later versions of their own browser.

    Of course, who was first doesn't matter in the long run. What matters is an ongoing commitment to conformance - being first with partial support means nothing if you do as Microsoft did with CSS and forget to implement the rest for years.

    --
    Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    1. Re:Examples by GWBasic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe Microsoft learned their lesson and isn't being quick to adopt the Open Office file format until it's been established with clear customer demand?

    2. Re:Examples by Bogtha · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Established with clear customer demand" is not the same thing as being published as a completed specification. The OpenDocument format has already been published as a completed specification, so it's an entirely different situation to implementing an unfinished specification.

      Note that the OpenOffice document format is the older, discontinued format; OpenDocument is the newer, standardised format.

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    3. Re:Examples by grcumb · · Score: 3, Informative

      I was going to moderate this thread, but there's no 'factually incorrect' rating available, let alone 're-writing history', so I'll have to reply instead....

      "For one example of pitfalls and perks, consider stylesheets. Netscape threw their weight behind JSSS, Internet Explorer threw their weight behind CSS. CSS got taken up by the W3C, JSSS got chucked."

      Several corrections:

      1. Microsoft did *not* throw its weight behind CSS as a standard - they openly espoused 'extending' it with proprietary attributes and behaviours. HTML 4 and CSS 1 are the first examples of MS' 'embrace and extend' lock-in tactic. To characterise this as anything other than subversion of the standardisation process is disingenuous at best.
      2. IE 3's CSS implementation was so broken that people resorted to relying on its broken Cascade model (the C in CSS) in order to avoid sending any directives to it at all. Google 'dummy-rules.css' for details on this.
      3. CSS did not get 'taken up' by the W3C; it was designed by the W3C. And this was not, as you imply, a result of MS' support. Believe me, CSS did not succeed because of IE, but in spite of it.
      4. MSIE 3 was, IIRC, not the first popular browser to support CSS. I believe that honour goes to Opera.
      5. JSSS did not get chucked so much as it got dropped. It was a pretty transparent ploy on Netscape's part to control the future of the web, and given their experience with Netscape's impositions in the past (including the <blink> abomination) nobody was willing to buy into it. While Netscape may have submitted the JSSS spec as a draft standard to the W3C, it was never officially supported. The W3C has to consider submissions from all of its members - it's a consortium, after all - but a submission should never be construed as support.

      "Another example is XSLT; Microsoft implemented a draft version, and ended up with support that was incompatible with the final specification and later versions of their own browser."

      To my knowledge, MS has *never* done a clean implementation of any Internet standard where they didn't absolutely have to. While their TCP/IP stack (which was based on the Berkeley implementation) may more or less work as advertised, their web browsers, email software and Internet-related developer tools have always been skewed from the relevant standards.

      Micosoft does provide some object lessons in the difference between de facto standards and true standards, but I would hesitate to claim that it ever made any effort to support or adhere to any open standard.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    4. Re:Examples by Bogtha · · Score: 3, Informative

      Microsoft did *not* throw its weight behind CSS as a standard - they openly espoused 'extending' it with proprietary attributes and behaviours.

      Well right off the bat, CSS doesn't have attributes, so you are wrong there. Do you have a cite for the "openly espoused extensions"? And how can you say that it didn't throw its weight behind CSS when it was both the first to implement it and a member of the W3C when they took it on?

      IE 3's CSS implementation was so broken that people resorted to relying on its broken Cascade model (the C in CSS) in order to avoid sending any directives to it at all.

      What's your point? I already alluded to incomplete implementation, nowhere did I say that Internet Explorer 3's support was complete.

      CSS did not get 'taken up' by the W3C; it was designed by the W3C.

      Wrong. CSS originated outside of the W3C. The first draft of the CSS specification was written by Håkon Wium Lie and published in 1994. The W3C wasn't even operational until the following year - although it was founded in the same month as the draft was published, it took a while to get up and running.

      And this was not, as you imply, a result of MS' support.

      You are reading too much into what I am saying if you think I implied that. However, it may be true. From Cascading Style Sheets, designing for the Web, the book about CSS written by the creator of CSS, it states:

      The workshop was also an experiment to see if it was possible for W3C to organize events outside the US. Indeed, this turned out to be possible and the workshop was a milestone in ensuring style sheets their rightful place on the Web. Among the participants was Thomas Reardon of Microsoft who pledged support for CSS in upcoming versions of Internet Explorer.

      MSIE 3 was, IIRC, not the first popular browser to support CSS. I believe that honour goes to Opera.

      You don't recall correctly. From the above cited book:

      Had it not been for the browsers, CSS would have remained a lofty proposal of only academic interest. The first commercial browser to support CSS was Microsoft's Internet Explorer 3 which was released in August 1996.

      JSSS did not get chucked so much as it got dropped.

      Chucked and dropped are synonyms in this context. What distinction are you drawing?

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    5. Re:Examples by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I read the first guy's post and I was like "wow he really has some good points." Then I read your post and I was like, "wow, that first guy was an idiot." It really goes to show how far someone can go with a bunch of stuff put together with no factual basis and a bunch of terms from the topics at hand thrown in. I can't believe I didn't catch several of the things you pointed out about his post on my first reading.

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
  5. The great thing about standards by Tribbin · · Score: 4, Funny

    Stolen quote: The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

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  6. lets see by mayhemt · · Score: 2, Funny

    lets see if we can /. IBM...

  7. Good Quote! by dkf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Great minds think alike; hurried developers make similar mistakes."

    --
    "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
  8. Re:What does it mean to be "standard"? by MaceyHW · · Score: 2, Informative

    Wrong standard.

    That's like comparing being a karma whore to to posting in English. Yes there's some grey area with technology standards since we do choose among new ones but it's still not the same.

  9. Slashdot should adopt a standard.... by 8127972 · · Score: 2, Funny

    .... To make sure that Zonk doesn't post dupes.

    --
    This is my opinion. To make sure you don't steal it, it's covered by the DMCA.
  10. Exactly how does one... by msauve · · Score: 3, Funny
    "adopt a standard before it becomes one?"

    Is that like going to McDonald's, ordering a Chicken Sandwich, and getting an Egg McMuffin?

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
  11. Re:What does it mean to be "standard"? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 3, Informative

    Assuming a normal distribution on the bell curve, aiming for "standard" is to aim right for the big, juicy middle of the curve. Doesn't that mean you're aiming for average overall?

    No. Did you read the article, and understand any of it? If you did, maybe you'd understand what is meant by "standard."

    A standard, in this context, is not a statistical point or distribution of points that falls on a bell curve. It is not the "average" level of quality, it's not even a measurement of quality. It is, instead, a set of criteria that is generally accepted by consensus of the community. Typically, this is to allow interoperability and product substitution capacity, and is necessary for consumer adoption of new technology.

    Look at Betamax vs. VHS, for example. Would it do you any good, as a movie distributor, to create a new standard for videocassette content delivery that is better than Betamax or VHS? Because VHS is only "average"?

    To take that a step further, say you are developing what you hope to be the next "standard" for in-home movie content delivery, the Laserdisc. Would it make sense for you to develop an entirely new interface between the TV and your device, when most of your potential customers already have televisions that have coaxial cable connectors?

    Standard != average. Standard = used by the majority.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  12. The great thing about standards by evil-osm · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...everyone has their own

    --


    E.

    Never rub another man's rhubarb - The Joker
  13. RS-232 by mark-t · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Many people adopted that "standard" long before it became EIA-232 (now TIA-232, I believe).

    Adoption that makes things become standard. Not the other way around. At most, all you do is create a "recommended standard", which is interestingly what the RS stood for in that famous 25-pin bus.

  14. Once in a while, it works by Webmoth · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One well-adopted "standard" (which isn't a standard at all) is ID3 (and its successor, ID3V2), the standard for tagging files with metadata.

    The interesting thing here is that it is as standard proposed and written in the spirit of Open Source -- its development is moderated by a core group of loosely-knit volunteers, and anyone can contribute to the discussion.

    It has been adopted by practically every developer -- commercial, open source, Joe-in-Basement, etc. -- of multimedia software, even Microsoft.

    No standards body (IEEE, IETF, ISO, NIST, W3C, IANA, etc.) has accepted it as a standard; to my knowledge it has never been submitted to any organization as a proposed standard.

    By community involvement and acceptance, it has become a de facto standard, and for the most part everyone plays by the rules.

    --
    Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
    1. Re:Once in a while, it works by sootman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm still waiting for someone to invent IDX--an XML-based ID3 tag. I *hate* having...
      a million albums by Stevie Wonder
      a million albums by Paul McCartney
      Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder - Ebony and Ivory
      why can't I just specify more than one artist for a song and have it show up under each separately? (Especially since so many duets are not made by people who sing together often.) First of all, it's a pain because I never know, for example, if I should scroll to P or S for that particular song. Secondly, it's a waste to have an extra entry just for that one song.

      A similar problem comes with hip-hop acts. Will Smith did not record "Summertime." The Fresh prince did not record "Miami." With so many artists changing names, changing bands, etc., it'd be nice to have them all unified, so I could scroll to any identity and see all songs.

      I should have said it's more prevelant with hip-hop acts. Quick, who rcorded "I Can't Dance"--Phil Collins or Genesis? Sting, Jefferson Airplane/Starship, Peter Cetera, Steve Perry... the list goes on.

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    2. Re:Once in a while, it works by G-funk · · Score: 2, Funny

      I understand.... I'd be upset if my music collection was full of Paul McCartney too.

      --
      Send lawyers, guns, and money!
  15. Re:angling for those IBM ad dollars, eh? by SoSueMe · · Score: 2, Funny

    "IBM DeveloperWorks articles requiring registration"

    Huh?
    The article was not a reg req offering.

    Whatever you're smokin', pass it 'round.

  16. Re:I used the word correctly by NickFortune · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Actually, you used the word ambiguously. In fact you seem to be trying to deliberately conflate two different usages of "standard"; one meaning "commonplace", the other refering to an agreed protocol to allow interoperability.

    Microsoft integrated XML pretty deep into .NET, so naturally they are trumpeting the usefulness of the XML standard and SOA

    Oooh... Microsoft! Funny thing about Microsoft, but they suffered a major setback recently. Seems that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts opted for an independantly defined open standard that everyone can use freely, rather than the Microsoft offering which was loaded up with licences and patents and which they could change at will and without consultation. I gather Microsoft were not happy about that. Chairs were thrown, I have no doubt.

    Oddly enough, that was about SOAs (Service Oriented Architectures) as well. I know this is a crazy idea, but I expect Microsoft would be purely delighted if everyone ignored the Open Document standard and went on to express their individuality by buying whatever de-facto standard Microsoft might subsequently announce. But then you used lots of dollar signs when talking about VB.NET so I guess you can't really be a Redmond shill. And to think, you nearly had me fooled.

    Again, I could be entirely wrong. Your mileage may vary.

    Yes, I think it probably will, and I think you probably are. I think people understand perfectly well that open standards means increased competition, and that competition means better products and better value for money.

    Certainly, there's only one way to find out. Personally, I'm rather looking forward to it.

    --
    Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
  17. Music ID tags (Yea, OT, an On-T reply to parent) by Keybounce · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It sounds like you are really looking for a relational DB format of ID tagging.

    A song can have many authors.
    An author can have many names
    An author can have many songs
    A name can have many authors

    You need a many-many for song/artist, for artist/name, for name/artist ("Monkeys", for example, may not mean the same people today as it used to), etc.

    In fact, you'll have many/many tables EVERYWHERE in a really complete system, and you're going to want some way to transfer information from one DB to another DB maintaining the same many/many intermediate information as you transfer across DB's ...

    > Secondly, it's a waste to have an extra entry just for that one song.

    You will wind up having to use a lot of UUID's in pairs for each table entry, and you'll have a lot of those entries. Last time I checked, generating a UUID took 16 bytes, so each line of each many/many table is a 32 byte entry, and each song will trigger many many/many entries.

    Were you trying to save space somehow?