Slashdot Mirror
IRC as a World-Changing Medium
khaladan writes "Wired has an interesting article titled Chat Room That Built the World that talks about the power of developers helping each other on IRC. The article covers the case of #winprog on EFnet, where people such Justin Frankel (creator of Winamp), John Johansen (DVD Jon), and Shawn Fanning (of Napster fame) have come to chat, hang out, and get help. Many from Microsoft visit the channel as well. Ben Knauss calls it 'innovation in its purest form, without ego, money or fame as its goal.'"
I find that part of an IRC channel's culture is the people that attend it. Now that the channel has been advertised, do you think those people will continue to show up? More importantly do you think the quality of help will maintain? I believe that now it has been advertised, the quality of programming help will now decline. *crosses fingers hoping that isn't true*
Imagine what John Johansen (and the others) could have done if they weren't "wasting time" chatting all day long!
I'm not sure this would be much more effective than the countless forums out there dedicated to coding, but can honestly say I have never been in a coding chat room...anyone have a preference when it comes to finding help coding online?
Well... aside from the obvious joke answer, I wouldn't have finished nearly as many projects as I have, spent much more time watching TV, and generally not worked as much as I have without IRC. Sure, I guess that makes me a nerd, but honestly, the type of community you can find on *certain* IRC channels (I'm hoping you know the type I'm talking about, I don't mean all the crappy warez channels and random chat channels) is about as helpful as anything else out there. I can almost always find my answer, regarding almost anything.
I believe that what is said here USED to be true. IRC was a great medium for exploring hobbies, and computing just happened to be one at some point in time. That is no longer true, and computing is not a hobby it is as necessary simply to function in the modern day world...
Now, if you go into any particular IRC room... even a "tech" room... the noise level dwarfs the signal... go to #perl and you overhear people speaking of their cute little cat, go to #linux and everyone is asking how to re-install winderz..
- Mind
...but how do I get ops?
I thought all the power-ninjas just use netnews (nntp), not chat.
Unix has "talk" -- but that was always pretty lame, right?
I find chatrooms (like talk) to be a real waste of time -- the signal to noise ratio is very low. It takes a very long time to transfer any signifigant technical info.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/when_to_
I would have thought that the "world changing medium" would be that IRC services chat rooms both directly and indirectly (through its protocol), game servers (Tiberian Sun, etc. are now played through an IRC derivative), and plays host to countless other apps.
So yep, it's a world changing medium, but man, the world its changed is so, so much larger than a single chat room.
And oh -- it's probably landed some 1337 k1dz in jail. So it's changed their world, too.
Many from Microsoft visit the channel as well. Ben Knauss calls it 'innovation in its purest form, without ego, money or fame as its goal.'"
I think IRC is worse than ever. More and more jerks! People are so arrogant and far from being without ego. I think you need to be pretty well advanced in your skill-set in order to use IRC properly. Newbies be warned: you'll just be flamed on IRC if you ask for help.
I can see it now:
<SFanning> Hey.. I'm having a little trouble with these APIs.. Any of you guys willing to lend a hand?
<wind00d33> slaps <napster> across the face with a large trout
<haxxorman> slaps <napster> across the face with a large trout
<carlie79> Heh.. Guys.. I'm so high right now...
<Mj> So about my penis...
<-- SFanning has quit (screw this...)
It's often rather ... boring to chit-chat like an idiot with a user who only comes to say average of 4 words per sentence, 1 sentence a minute; first sentence being "Can I ask?", second "I have a problem", third "Can you help me?". Imagine wasting 10 minutes of time with every user who asks because you have to answer stuff like this; now imagine you're on the channel on regular basis.
Isn't it better to cut through the crap, say "I have a problem $foo with $software in $version, it does $something although I believe it should do $somethingelse because the docs say '$quote'", so everybody can focus to solving the problem rightaway?
At work we've got a semi-private irc channel where the majority of the developers and lead developers hang out.
:)
It's a simple way of communication and it excels in situations where not all people are in-house, especially in situations where I want to paste 12 lines of code/xml/etc. to a colleague and ask him if it'd work against his interface/service/etc.
Just as long as people remember that it's a second form of communication, nothing can beat actually being physically present
irc w/out ego??? hahahahaha.
don't know about efnet, but i got this when I joined: :D
"New channel peak: 294"
M0r3 leik a werd ch4ng1ng meidum!
IRC, as far as I am concerned from having spent many a year on them helping others & learning as well, is a good place to learn & share ideas on things technical regarding computers imo!
In fact, I spent a good portion of the mid to late 1990's there modding/adminning one on Dalnet in #Windows95 (a Win32 OS tech help channel that K. Mardem Bey endorsed as that network's "official Win32 OS help channel" or something like that, as its title & standing on that network).
It was a good crew there initially, but like all things, nothing lasts forever - that channel no longer holds that designation for that IRC network afaik, but when it did it was a great place to go for tech help & just making friends with common interests.
What did I get out of that experience?
Well, MOSTLY, I personally learned a great deal on how Tcp/IP works, and that was because the #Linux channel would start "hack fights" with us weekly, w/out fail...
Programming wasn't a "big topic" there, & I think I may have been only 1 of 2-3 coders that went there to THAT particular channel, so it wasn't something of note being discussed there a great deal.
That end of things I learned on my own more & more as time passed, in coding.
However, that channel was LOADED with network administrators & network security & forensics personell, & I took advantage of it, & learned from and WITH them, regularly.
IRC helped me "round out" my skills in computers as far as I am concerned.
IMO, a computer person today cannot just "be a coder" or "be a network administrator/tech/engineer" but, has to be most ALL of those things... yes, a "return to yesteryear/the old days" when the computer guy @ any particular shop wasn't a specialist in some particular area, but a jack-of-all-trades.
You have to understand (to a decent degree @ least) most ALL of the particulars in computing today, in order to function & contribute as well as be marketeable in this field.
The attacks by the #Linux channel I mention (mainly each time a new Win32 OS vulnerability turned up & they would exploit them) earlier on?
That, in turn, taught me to start looking for various ways to seal off & secure Windows NT-based OS!
That research on my end resulted in this article I put up for others for years to use in how to do so as well, securing their Windows NT-based (NT/2000/XP/Server 2003):
http://www.avatar.demon.nl/APK.html
It works, enjoy the read... much of it came from researches based on being attacked on IRC, so good did come out of "the bad"...
Anyhow - So, some good comes out of the bad (being attacked by the #Linux folks regularly & it was bad, one time resulting in my system actually being compromised - but, the guy who did it was nice enough to point out HOW he did it to me).
I learned much as did my colleagues @ that channel over the years we spent there sharing our knowledge with one another.
IRC is good stuff (or, used to be @ least), as a whole, & is a far faster medium than say, forums boards like this or email, mainly imo because it's in "realtime", & instantaneous information exchange, no waiting @ all (provided the folks you want to talk with are present that is).
The only thing that bugs me nowadays about it is the dangers present on it, & they are there and real, so watch out what you get from others there via DCC transfers is all I can say!
(DCC's typically not something to trust out there, & a vector for 'infectors' that is typically utilized, so watch what you get offered there... it could be a trojan horse, is all I can say).
APK
I've used IRC in the past and I thought it was pretty good for what (and when) it was. However, it could have used some serious usability improvements. I found that, if you "lived" in IRC you got accustomed to its quirks, but if you used it intermittently there were startup pains each time as you got re-acquinted with its idiosyncracies. Now admittedly it's been awhile since I used it, but from what I recall it was: text based only, used this bizarre "so-and-so wants to chat with you" popup if they were sending you a file, had a built-in server list that kept getting out of date, and was very hostile to newbies. What would be cool is if something more usable like AIM (the horror!) could emerge. Maybe to get a screen name you would register your areas of expertise (C++, Image Processing, whatever) and then you might even have to answer a few quiz questions. That might keep out the riff-raff. Just a thought.
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
Confusing signalto noise with relevance.
:-/
Technical thinking can be a liability at times.
Just picture someone mining: hours and hours of tiresome digging until a giant nugget comes up.
This is _one_ of the reasons I favour anonymous posting.
Many good comments are lost because they get a zero rating and are not read. Sometimes some jerk even qualifies an important remark as offtopic which makes me even need to browse at negative levels.
I miss the earlier Slashdot days without karma when you made a joke and people understood and laughed. Now I'm losing the grip, or people don't understand or they don't find it funny anymore... I'm gonna hope it's the first one...
I remember using #WinProg a few years ago when I started learning Win32. Sure enough, it was a helpful resource, but at the time the regulars (not all though) were some of the most arrogant, egotistical (and in many cases, unhelpful) people I had ever come across.
....
...
Typical conversations:
[ilitirit] how do i check the class styles for a certain FOOBAR?
[winprogger] learn to use Spy++, n00b
[ilitirit] ok, where do i can get Spy++?
[winprogger] AARGH!!! are you stupid or something? it's PART OF VS 98!!!
[ilitirit] i'm using Borland's commandline compiler.
[winprogger]
[ilitirit] how do i create window without a titlebar?
[winprogger] how do not run into tree and smash your nose?
[ilitirit] ????
[winprogger] YOU JUST DON'T DO IT!!! don't specify that it should have one!! sheesh. is everyone suddenly getting dumber or something?
[ilitirit] erm... i don't think you can do that
[winprogger] lol
[winprogger]
[winprogger] ok
not too mention the countless "IT'S IN THE DAMN TUTORIAL FFS!!!" responses...
I've found that useful channels are few and far between. There are genuinely helpful people out there willing to assist you in a manner that no documentation could hope of. Yet, most tech channels I've visited are generally geared towards seasoned developers who wish to speak of new or old ground broken or some strange thing they've encountered. If you're not a seasoned developer, your question is likely to get a simple, thoughtless answer or a "rtfm." So, I feel there's been a shift in attitude from the older days that sweeps across much of IRC, in general; it's an attitude of elitism and snobbishness that affects both tech and non-tech channels, alike.
What do u mean "without ego" IRC is the most egocentric protocol on the net ;) Its all a bunch of geeks hanging out on chan with names like #null0r and #l33tkr3w trying to impress people who they don't know on the other side of the world, by tring to out-geek them in certain aspects, all the time ever chasing that elisive @ sign!
You feel sleepy. Close your eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
I "met" my wife on irc in 1993. It wasn't totally nerdy though because we were both on #drugs.
IRC does not have "chat rooms". AOL has chat rooms. IRC has channels.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
IRC certainly is a powerful communications medium. I first talked to a woman, who i later lived with for 3 years as my girlfriend, on IRC. She is the most important person in my life, though we are not currently together.
This weekend, I am leaving to visit the Netherlands for a job opportunity. How did this happen? By mentioning I was looking for a job, while I was on IRC. Someone I had talked to for years knew his employer was looking for someone like me, and the rest is history.
No doubt about it, IRC has changed my life in major ways.
-- Note: If you don't agree with me, don't bother replying. I won't read it.
Why not actually use IRC, instead of treating it as some sort of free consulting agency? Stick around the channel even when you don't need help, answer questions from others, and then when you DO need help, people will know you and not tell you to unlink /dev/zero to fix your problems.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
The people who are complaining about it here can only be people that never really put an effort into it.
Like every online community, it takes a while for you to get used to its particular culture, the habits of its users, etc. Not to mention each channel (channels, not chatrooms, please) may have its own subculture. Once you manage to get through that, IRC has potential to be a great experience. Real time chat without the limitations of IM.
What's different in IRC is that it's quite old; some channels have been around forever. When a newcomer walks in somewhere that has had the same people chatting to each other for more than 5 years, like he owns the place, of course there may be some resistance.
Also, in the case of coding channels, getting 50 people per day asking the same question that is clearly answered in easily accessible documentation and that has been thoroughly dissected in online media can be quite annoying. Especially when said documentation is hinted at in the channel's topic. Just as you are (well...) expected to RTFA in Slashdot, you are expected to RTFM in IRC.
DISAGREE!
Maybe in the larger none specific channels, but the ones I've visited reciently for support for some OSS have been first class.
I had a problem reciently with the subversion server at work running out of random entropy (tho I didn't know this was the problem - just showed itself as people being unable to auth). The guys over at the subversion channel on Freenode helped me locate the problem (dodgy ebuild script for apr in Gentoo), and gave me a posible solution. (saved my neck that day, I had upgraded to svn 1.2.x for locking = none of the 50 developers can commit or get latest).
I agree if you go into say #gentoo and ask for anything other than a 1 line fix your out of luck, but smaller community channels are still excellent.