IRC as a World-Changing Medium

khaladan writes "Wired has an interesting article titled Chat Room That Built the World that talks about the power of developers helping each other on IRC. The article covers the case of #winprog on EFnet, where people such Justin Frankel (creator of Winamp), John Johansen (DVD Jon), and Shawn Fanning (of Napster fame) have come to chat, hang out, and get help. Many from Microsoft visit the channel as well. Ben Knauss calls it 'innovation in its purest form, without ego, money or fame as its goal.'"

Comments

well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[cwtrex]

I find that part of an IRC channel's culture is the people that attend it. Now that the channel has been advertised, do you think those people will continue to show up? More importantly do you think the quality of help will maintain? I believe that now it has been advertised, the quality of programming help will now decline. *crosses fingers hoping that isn't true*

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[jmcmunn]

Honestly, the people who you are worried about are likely to see this article and go visit the room for a day or two and then forget about it. So for the next few days it might not live up to the expectations portrayed, but give it a week o rso and I bet it will be back to normal.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[equex256]

problem is, most irc channels these days are full of kids that demand attention and instant help, as well as ops and regulars with overgrown egos and a distaste for even helping people who came to the channel after much research on their questions.

this combination renders channels with a bad atmosphere and they end up wih a lot of idlers, and well aquinted regulars helping only each other. i find myself reading official documentation and using web forums. efnet as a programming institution is dead.

i used to hang in #winprog (huhuhuUHUHUHuhuhUHU) as well as other programming channels on efnet. even if #winprog got on /. now, its been dead along with most other once-helpful chat channels for a time .

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[LarsG]

its been dead along with most other once-helpful chat channels for a time

I've seen the dreaded Eternal September effect too, both on IRC and Usenet. There are still high quality channels on IRC, but they are usually invite only so unless you are already part of the community they can be hard to gain access to.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[Aceticon]

Now that it's been adverstised, expect an invasion of people with nicknames like IRuLeZ and 3liT3z, all of them in the age range 5 - 14 *sigh*

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[EddyPearson]

STOP JOINING THE FUCKING CHANNEL.
It's enought that website get slashdotted, but lets leave the poor chan out of this, its getting impossible to talk:

If you havn't been there before today: Leave it till tomorrow, hey!

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[Thud457]

World-changing as in "that's how I got my rootkit".

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[Chris_Jefferson]

Believe me, the quality of the programming help was never good. I've never met such a bunch of bastards in my whole life, all they ever did was flame anyone who came into the channel. I'm not really sure why they now seem to have got so famous all of a sudden.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[cytg.net]

thats nice.. meanwhile you'all crowding up my space .. my personal space.. just hit 400 users .. dambit... go away.. heh

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[dasunt]

A large portion of everything sucks. :p

That includes IRC. There are a lot of horrible, horrible IRC channels. There are also a few great IRC channels.

The other day, I needed to figure out how to draw the smallest possible polygon that would contain several points (not homework -- massaging GPS data). So I went to a very good channel I knew about and asked. Turned out to be a "convex hull" problem, and that gave me enough information to google for a lib, sample code, and even a binary.

World-changing? No. But damn useful? Yes.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[scotch]

It's not their fault that all the good nicks like "Aceticon" are taken.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[cayenne8]

"I've seen the dreaded Eternal September effect too..."

What is the dreaded eternal September effect?

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[jdgreen7]

I've spent a good portion of the last couple of months working on an open source game, and the people who wrote the underlying library (ClanLib) have been extremely helpful in IRC. It's just a matter of finding the right channel.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[mduell]

September that never ended

        All time since September 1993. One of the seasonal rhythms of the Usenet used to be the annual September influx of clueless newbies who, lacking any sense of netiquette, made a general nuisance of themselves. This coincided with people starting college, getting their first internet accounts, and plunging in without bothering to learn what was acceptable. These relatively small drafts of newbies could be assimilated within a few months. But in September 1993, AOL users became able to post to Usenet, nearly overwhelming the old-timers' capacity to acculturate them; to those who nostalgically recall the period before, this triggered an inexorable decline in the quality of discussions on newsgroups. Syn. eternal September.

From the Jargon File

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[petermgreen]

problem is, most irc channels these days are full of kids that demand attention and instant help, as well as ops and regulars with overgrown egos and a distaste for even helping people who came to the channel after much research on their questions.
yeah i'm an op in the main irc channel about a reasonablly well known windows ircd and we do try to help but it gets fucking annoying the sheer number of people who don't understand the basics of tcp/ip networking or configuring thier nat routers to port forward stuff (btw nat router configuration is a HUGE pita to help people with as every router is different).

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[Neph]

What could possibly be more appropriate to illustrate this point than a bash quote from that very channel?

http://bash.org/?2121

*** atnnn (atnnn@hv-hs-37-38.aei.ca) has joined #winprog
<atnnn> hi
<atnnn> what is the code for "+" on WM_KEYDOWN
<Wy4tt> VK_RTM
<atnnn> and minus?
<Wy4tt> VK_RTFM
<atnnn> i can't find it

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[$pacemonkey]

"but give it a week o rso and I bet it will be back to normal."

OK! Let's all do that! Who's with me?

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[meme_pool]

I had the same thought (that the Wired story would likely ruin another pristine -or not- space). Any pure little paradise, once it hits the big time, will be turned into a godforsaken wasteland of burmuda-shorts-wearing tourists leaving swaths of dreck in their wake. When the masses get wind of something good, they'll trash it for sure. It's basically just the law of entropy in action.

But does it really have to be this way? Perhaps slashdot is better at filtering signal from noise than IRC in some respects, but not all. Any napsters or del.icio.us's coming out of this collective? I haven't seen signs of collective intelligence emerging for innovative solutions in this space, but granted, I am a newbie. Also granted, this forum isn't really geared for that level of collaboration.

Or isn't it? Here's a brain[emmission]; judge for yourself whether its aroma is appealing or repugnant:

Imagine an environment that is instantly responsive to your predilections based on the context you provide. Context is determinined heuristically based on your interactive participation, like adaptive steering through a meaning/value space.

The problem we're trying to solve, as always, essentially boils down to separating signal from noise. We want to do that more effectively. The situation is complicated by the fact that one person's signal may be another person's noise. The designation of signal or noise isn't universally objective. In fact it is inherently subjective. Complicating the picture further still is the fact that one person's present goals may be different from another's, even if their tastes are similar (I may agree that a post is funny, but I'm really more interested in finding something informative right now, so I'm not in the market for funny at the moment).

So, what if we enable *every user* to tag a given post as "signally" or "noisy" on a variety of spectra. If I find a given post funny, and I want find more funny posts, then the system should interactively display more posts based on querying "users who find the given post funny" joined with "other posts this group finds funny." Similarly, if I find this post funny, but not informative, and I'm looking for informative, the total posts are filtered, parsed and displayed for my viewing pleasure accordingly.

For each new post that I rank for signal/noise correlation (based on any spectra of my choosing), the total collection is reparsed for each user individually, and so each post viewed is another chance for a new bifurcation in the meaning/value space.

There are two simultaneous but distinct activities going on here: the first is differentiation of the value/meaning space based on individual signal/noise assessments; the second is integration of the space into clusters based on heuristic participation and querying.

There is an extremely important, but very tiny innovation involved in this system: the fact that all of my rankings are motivated by what I want to see more/less of, I'm not tasked with the chore of trying to decide what other users would like to see. There is no need for centralized control. The system is set up to let decentralized control flourish.

Basically, each user becomes a Maxwellian Demon (http://www.maxwellian.demon.co.uk/name.html), reversing the forces of entropy, and making the space more useful with increased participation rather than less useful. Not only that, but the system basically creates parallel mini-universes; rather than one single box in which everyone sees everyone, you've got a potentially unlimited number of boxes based on the evaluations by each user assigning and seeking meaning/value for their own selfish benefit.

One of the beautiful consequences of this kind of interaction is that the space become richer with prolonged usage instead of becoming more noisy (harnessing negative entropy). I don't even think that it would be necessary or useful to classify given users as "noisy" or "signally." That inf

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[Creepy]

speak for yourself - I find IRC immensely helpful, but you do bring up a valid point - use other mediums first.

I usually try google and if that fails, I'll move on to IRC (though I tend to use freenode over efnet). #opengl, #macdev, #winprog, and #linux have all helped with questions I've had (yeah, I'm a jack-of-all trades developer, and true to form, master of none - though I can port quite well). The key I've found is asking a sensible question and not one that can be found by a simple search. Something not found in the manual or faq helps give you some credibility, though I've gotten some brownie points for finding errors in Apple and Microsoft manuals.

    Honestly, someone that pops into #winprog and asks "how do I create a window" is asking to be shot down. Another aggrivation is when someone asks you something straight out of the faq or manual for a project (usually resulting in rtfm posts). If we, as developers, spent the entire day answering simple questions, we'd get no development done, so it's not an action taken out of malice, it's just practical.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[cayenne8]

It's been forever since I've messed with IRC. What are some of the better clients to use with Linux?

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[typobox43]

X-Chat is my personal favorite. The Linux version, at least, is free and GPL. The Windows version... not so much, but there's a free fork for Win32 that's built from the Linux source.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[Old Wolf]

Yeah I'm an OP on #winprog. Be jealous.

This is exactly the power-tripping attitude that the GP was complaining about, and that gets up the nose of everybody who isn't an op. I think you need a reality check. Having ops on an IRC channel does not elevate your status with anyone except for other people whose life is IRC.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[TheoMurpse]

You want to know a good math chat? #math on EFNet. It's really, really good.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[TheoMurpse]

That's why you point them toward Port Forward.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[Ilgaz]

I suggest irssi, good on both gui and terminal. Very helpful community too

http://www.irssi.org/

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[nurb432]

I hate to say ' me too ', but i agree totally. Todays IRC crowd is nothing like it was many years ago.

The entire internet has been dumbed down greatly due to the influx of 'average citizens', that have no business on the network, or even owning a computer in the first place.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[bugg]

problem is, most irc channels these days are full of kids that demand attention and instant help, as well as ops and regulars with overgrown egos and a distaste for even helping people who came to the channel after much research on their questions.

As a regular IRC user since 1997, I can assure you:

"These days" have lasted for, at the very least, 8 years.

What I have seen, however, is the end of EFNet as a useful network for folks looking to get work done. Most of us who are using IRC for important things have wandered off to our various niche networks.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[ashot]

not any more..

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[wo1verin3]

I'll still never move away from BitchX. I prefer looking like I'm working in a terminal session than chatting :)

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[eztiger]

So don't idle on a help channel?

My mind boggles when I see this attitude. If you're on a help / discussion channel channel people will...gasp...ask for help or try to enter into a discussion on the topic.

The fact you're imposing a level of technical challenge that you expect from their questions is your problem, not theirs. You're always going to see a higher percentage of simpler problems than the harder ones that actually challenge you, so deal with it...keep quiet...or leave the channel. Don't moan at people for going there to do what the # is for.

Kev

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[LarsG]

What is the dreaded eternal September effect?

mduell has already quoted the Jargon file explaining Eternal September, so I won't repeat it.

What I was refering to was the effect of Eternal September. That is, that the influx of (to use a derogatory term) 'clueless newbies', spammers, etc can have a devastating effect on the signal to noise ratio in useful communities like Usenet groups, IRC channels and Web forums. The result often being that the most valuable members of the community gives up and leaves.

Re:well, I doubt it will be like that anymore

[Creepy]

Quite honestly, if it's a noob and they're serious but still ignorant, I usually suggest they read the faq and/or documentation first before asking simple questions that can be answered there. The problem is, there's a constant barrage of 12 year old non-programmers that want to, say, jump right in and create the next version of Quake without any programming knowledge, any knowledge of graphics, and then the inability to comprehend what they're reading because it's way above their skill level. When I suggest something easier, they refuse - what would you do?

I usually just put them on my ignore list, but many others aren't so nice.

Just imagine!

[jmcmunn]

Imagine what John Johansen (and the others) could have done if they weren't "wasting time" chatting all day long!

I'm not sure this would be much more effective than the countless forums out there dedicated to coding, but can honestly say I have never been in a coding chat room...anyone have a preference when it comes to finding help coding online?

Re:Just imagine!

[meringuoid]

Imagine what John Johansen (and the others) could have done if they weren't "wasting time" chatting all day long!

Yes. If not for IRC all three of them would have become good consu^H^H^H^Hitizens and contributed to society, rather than encouraging theft on a massive scale. Clearly these channels should be shut down to protect us from this kind of online terrorism.

-- Concerned Parents' League, not affiliated in any way to RIAA, honest.

Re:Just imagine!

[novus ordo]

anyone have a preference when it comes to finding help coding online?

I will save you the trouble of going to IRC: RTFM. : )

Re:Just imagine!

[thej1nx]

Just imagine...

First time an IRC room got slashdotted ...just now :)

Re:Just imagine!

[Shaklee39]

See my previous comment located here:

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=166907&cid=139 20675

What would I do without IRC...?

[Xshare]

Well... aside from the obvious joke answer, I wouldn't have finished nearly as many projects as I have, spent much more time watching TV, and generally not worked as much as I have without IRC. Sure, I guess that makes me a nerd, but honestly, the type of community you can find on *certain* IRC channels (I'm hoping you know the type I'm talking about, I don't mean all the crappy warez channels and random chat channels) is about as helpful as anything else out there. I can almost always find my answer, regarding almost anything.

Maybe it used to be that way...

[mindmaster064]

I believe that what is said here USED to be true. IRC was a great medium for exploring hobbies, and computing just happened to be one at some point in time. That is no longer true, and computing is not a hobby it is as necessary simply to function in the modern day world...

Now, if you go into any particular IRC room... even a "tech" room... the noise level dwarfs the signal... go to #perl and you overhear people speaking of their cute little cat, go to #linux and everyone is asking how to re-install winderz..

- Mind

Re:Maybe it used to be that way...

[tomstdenis]

I don't know where this article comes from but even in the late 90s [e.g. 97 and on] IRC was laregely bunk. The "best" rooms were always invite only private rooms. The rest were full of dialup junkies trying to get warez or bots annoying the fuck out of others.

You can still have software development as a hobby though you are right that depending on the project you have to use some capitalism judgement here and there [e.g. I make a living by doing commercial support for my public domain software].

The spirit isn't dead, it's just lost in the S/N ratio that is modern day "capitalism".

Tom

Re:Maybe it used to be that way...

[Sneakums]

And don't forget to donate!

Re:Maybe it used to be that way...

[Tim Browse]

I still remember the first time I used IRC (I've used it twice, I think). It was when Unreal came out, and I got stuck in a bit that was really annoying me. The game was new so there were no walkthroughs/hints on the web, so I found an IRC channel for Unreal. Conversation went something like this:

+++ Tim has arrived
<OtherDude> hi
<Tim> hi
<OtherDude> do you have unreal?
<Tim> yes
<OtherDude> do you have a cd burner?
+++ Tim has left

True story.

Re:Maybe it used to be that way...

[EvilNTUser]

"Now, if you go into any particular IRC room... even a "tech" room... the noise level dwarfs the signal..."

Sorry, but you just need to know where to go. And no, I'm not mentioning any channels on slashdot.

Somewhat offtopic, I recently discovered the song "Wake Me Up When September Ends" by a band called Green Day. It's not great or anything, but the title and some lyrics are strangely funny and appropriate. People who get the unintentional (?) joke may want to listen to it :-)

Re:Maybe it used to be that way...

[jxs2151]

Me too!

Re:Maybe it used to be that way...

[(A)*(B)!0_-]

I still remember the first time I used a web browser (I've used it twice, I think). It was when Unreal came out, and I got stuck in a bit that was really annoying me. The game was new so there were no walkthroughs/hints on the IRC channel I chat on, so I found a website for Unreal. Interaction went something like this:

HTTP Request
Flashing banner advertising something
Annoying Flash sound/music
Close browser

True story.

(You see - your story makes no sense. It's like judging the usefulness of the WWW based on a single site.

Re:Maybe it used to be that way...

[bcmm]

ME TOO!

I'd noticed that title and quietly giggled at it, but I hadn't read the lyrics till after I saw your post. I'm now slightly worried by how easy it is to interpret some of the lyrics as being about the Endless September, especially if you assume "innocent" is being used in it's old meaning as "ignorant"...

Re:Maybe it used to be that way...

[Council]

Now, if you go into any particular IRC room... even a "tech" room... the noise level dwarfs the signal...

Or, as they always have, the people who want to have a high-signal conversation go somewhere quiet. I have little experience with the broader IRC, mostly for the reasons you cite. But for the past five or so years I've been active on a private network of technical people and the like, many of whom know each other in real life. There are no ops, no spam, and very little noise. Ask any question and someone is an expert. It's exactly what I imagine IRC should be.

I think it's just that these groups are drifting out of the main networks once the networks get large enough.

Or maybe we're the only ones.

Re:Maybe it used to be that way...

[Tim Browse]

Your sense of humour appears to have been exceeded.

Re:Maybe it used to be that way...

[(A)*(B)!0_-]

I guess so. Please explain to me where the comedy is in your post.

Re:Maybe it used to be that way...

[beowulfcluster]

go to #perl and you overhear people speaking of their cute little cat

No, no, you misunderstood. I wanted to run perl stuff on my CueCat, woot.

This all well and good...

[Anonymous Coward]

...but how do I get ops?

Blah

[Kranfer]

Developers help eachother on IRC? Seems like everytime I go on there with weird Java, JSP, ASP, Oracle MSSQL questions I always get read the riot act about how "Don't ask to ask" Guess don't be polite... and get treated like a complete idiot for asking about the weird things I come across here at work.

IRC is great to share info with random people and learn random stuff... But I would always recommend a Book over IRC... Unless yer in a pinch.

Re:Blah

[Anonymous Coward]

It's often rather ... boring to chit-chat like an idiot with a user who only comes to say average of 4 words per sentence, 1 sentence a minute; first sentence being "Can I ask?", second "I have a problem", third "Can you help me?". Imagine wasting 10 minutes of time with every user who asks because you have to answer stuff like this; now imagine you're on the channel on regular basis.

Isn't it better to cut through the crap, say "I have a problem $foo with $software in $version, it does $something although I believe it should do $somethingelse because the docs say '$quote'", so everybody can focus to solving the problem rightaway?

Re:Blah

[Taladar]

There is nothing polite about forcing someone to answer to your question "May I ask a question?" before you tell them what your actual question is. IRC doesn't work that way. You should just ask your question and if someone knows an answer they will answer but if they don't they don't have to bother. That saves a lot of time for those willing to help others.

Re:Blah

[Kranfer]

Well I know what you guys are saying (all the above replies) However, saying something like, "I am having an issue with blah blah blah any of you free or know about it?" The whole ask to ask can be annoying I know. But if you put relavant info in there, why still freak out? I dunno I have been using IRC for years and still do not understand 90% of the people on there. Heh

Re:Blah

[DNS-and-BIND]

Why not actually use IRC, instead of treating it as some sort of free consulting agency? Stick around the channel even when you don't need help, answer questions from others, and then when you DO need help, people will know you and not tell you to unlink /dev/zero to fix your problems.

What's the big deal with IRC?

[putko]

I thought all the power-ninjas just use netnews (nntp), not chat.

Unix has "talk" -- but that was always pretty lame, right?

I find chatrooms (like talk) to be a real waste of time -- the signal to noise ratio is very low. It takes a very long time to transfer any signifigant technical info.

Re:What's the big deal with IRC?

[torpor]

Unix has "talk" -- but that was always pretty lame, right?


no. 'talk' is not lame. talk is useful on a multi-user system for people who do need to chat with each other, while logged onto that system.

'talk' is not, however, anything like IRC. whatsoever.


I find chatrooms (like talk) to be a real waste of time -- the signal to noise ratio is very low. It takes a very long time to transfer any signifigant technical info.

chatrooms are not (like talk).

and the point of this article, which you seem to have missed, is that some chatrooms DO provide a very significant technical info transfer function .. otherwise there wouldn't be any point to this article, would there?

yes, wilma, its quite possible that there are IRC channels which promote work, which increase productivity, and which provide a great deal of support to people - such as programmers - in need of it. these channels do exist. as a regular visitor to #openembedded, #gp2x, #uclinux, #osxhacks, and #mepis-lovers, i can attest to the fact that there are definitely great realtime IRC forums out there for particular subjects which promote productivity..

Re:What's the big deal with IRC?

[putko]

OK, you get info via IRC -- but do you get more than when you search through usenet?

E.g. suppose a driver is acting flaky, and you need to know why, fast. And what to do about it.

Do you search through netnews (with Deja Gnu -- now Google) -- or do you go on some IRC and ask a question.

I'm going to bet that you get a higher quality answer, quicker, via groups.google.com than you do on some IRC channel.

Furthermore, I've looked through archived chat sessions -- there's so much text, the stuff is not threaded (lots of extraneous crap in there), and generally there just isn't much information. That's what I'm basing my assessment on -- that, and using some IRC-like services to try to exchange information.

I'm just figuring that most IRC fans haven't figured out to look in comp.embedded, or comp.linux. Or to sign up to some mailing lists .

Re:What's the big deal with IRC?

[PhraudulentOne]

I find chatrooms (like talk) to be a real waste of time -- the signal to noise ratio is very low. It takes a very long time to transfer any signifigant technical info.

Not when the channel is organized, and the members know what their doing. You could easily +m the channel, let the person paste their code, and then let the +v's talk about it. Once that problem is solved, -m and let everyone have a say. Of course, this is only required if there is a lot of noise in the channel. Next person has a problem, and hasn't been flooding the channel with garbage? Give them a +v, and +m the rest of the channel.

You need decent ops for this sort of channel to work, but we used to do it all the time back when we had scheduled lessons to teach people. After the lesson, there would be a question period where everyone could ask questions. Bots would have FAQs in them for the common questions.

Re:What's the big deal with IRC?

[jonwil]

These days on most channels (for example #C, #C++ and #winprog on efnet) people paste their code (and things like error messages, output dumps etc) using a paste server like http://www.rafb.net/paste/

Re:What's the big deal with IRC?

[dkf]

I'm just figuring that most IRC fans haven't figured out to look in comp.embedded, or comp.linux. Or to sign up to some mailing lists.

Just like I'm figuring you don't know the difference between talking to someone face-to-face and writing letters to them? When you're operating at the real cutting edge, the immediacy of a chat system like IRC (or Jabber) can't be beat; the alternatives to it are really either telephone conferencing or real physical meetings, both of which can get really expensive to set up and run on a regular long-term basis.

A different way...

[davecrusoe]

I would have thought that the "world changing medium" would be that IRC services chat rooms both directly and indirectly (through its protocol), game servers (Tiberian Sun, etc. are now played through an IRC derivative), and plays host to countless other apps.

So yep, it's a world changing medium, but man, the world its changed is so, so much larger than a single chat room.

And oh -- it's probably landed some 1337 k1dz in jail. So it's changed their world, too.

Re:A different way...

[bobby_bac]

probably? try definatly but that doesn't means its the mediums fault...cuase yea if it was there would be no more IRC.

Without ego?

[Jouser]

Many from Microsoft visit the channel as well. Ben Knauss calls it 'innovation in its purest form, without ego, money or fame as its goal.'"

I think IRC is worse than ever. More and more jerks! People are so arrogant and far from being without ego. I think you need to be pretty well advanced in your skill-set in order to use IRC properly. Newbies be warned: you'll just be flamed on IRC if you ask for help.

Re:Without ego?

[TubeSteak]

More and more jerks! People are so arrogant and far from being without ego. ... Newbies be warned: you'll just be flamed on IRC if you ask for help.

You must be new here

And I can say that with a straight face.

Re:Without ego?

[Scoria]

I think IRC is worse than ever. More and more jerks! People are so arrogant and far from being without ego. I think you need to be pretty well advanced in your skill-set in order to use IRC properly. Newbies be warned: you'll just be flamed on IRC if you ask for help.

The wonderful thing about IRC is that there are many networks out there, and many of the smaller ones have operators that are actually interested in helping you. I operate one, and I can tell you that we don't turn newbies away, nor will we tell you to press ALT + F4 or CTRL + C to join a secret channel.

The smaller networks also tend to support more advanced features like integrated encryption and niche service commands, including several that might not be possible in a mainstream (i.e., a very large network) environment. They also benefit from having closely knit communities, as many of the network constituents actually do know each other outside of the Internet.

I'd speculate that you're just using the wrong network. If you dedicate a moderate amount of effort to researching the communities available to you, you'll probably find one that matches your taste. :-)

Re:Without ego?

[MirrororriM]

/kickban Jouser!*@* RTFM N00B!!!1!!!@$!1!!

;D

Re:Without ego?

[spinfire]

If you think this you are visiting the wrong channels, or the wrong networks. IRC the system is independant of the typical "IRC user" stereotype. Just because l4m3rz use it doesn't mean it is lame. I operate a very small IRC network (you can find the info on my homepage) with an excellent community of friends met on slashnet, in real life, and other places. It is a convenient method of asking friends for immediate help on problems as well as a good source of community and entertainment. New folks are welcome, but because we are small we don't attract idiots.

Re:Without ego?

[jav1231]

Forums, IRC, and online chatting in general are much like BBS'ing that preceded them. They are a collection of people. Yes, generally they are people of common interests but they are of differing personalities. Just as you have lamer noobs who come in an say, "My Linux is broken, what's wrong?" you have l33ts who say, "RTFM! I'm busy coding a script that will end world hunger!" In the middle, and where most people sit, there are folks who are willing to give details of their issue so they can get help and there are people who have the information they need and are willing to share. I've met a lot of people in my professional life who know a lot but don't want to share. Others are extremely interested in sharing knowledge. It's people. What's a brothuh gonna do?

Re:Without ego?

[rebelcan]

Despite the fact he has a UID that's only 75 numbers higher ( lower? ) than yours?

Re:Without ego?

[Shaklee39]

You must be new here. You are looking at the comment number, not the user ID.

Re:Without ego?

[rebelcan]

Uhhh.....look over there! Jack Thompson and Sony are planning their takeover of the world!

*runs away*

but....

[xao gypsie]

.....let's also not forget the massive Xchange of pr0n going on...

Woah

[fussili]

I can see it now:

<SFanning> Hey.. I'm having a little trouble with these APIs.. Any of you guys willing to lend a hand?
<wind00d33> slaps <napster> across the face with a large trout
<haxxorman> slaps <napster> across the face with a large trout
<carlie79> Heh.. Guys.. I'm so high right now...
<Mj> So about my penis...
<-- SFanning has quit (screw this...)

Re:Woah

[Tim Browse]

<SFanning> afk - lawsuit

Re:Woah

[Shaklee39]

Actually he used the nick Napster, that is how the program got its name.

Re:Woah

[fussili]

Yup, when I wrote that out first time round it was instead of but I figured some people wouldn't get the joke (apparently I was too lax in my quick and dirty editing to change to in the trout slapping). Although, in retrospect, if people on Slashdot don't know that Shawn Fanning was nicknamed Napster then no one does.

Re:Woah

[InsideTheAsylum]

<DrChemicalX> Welcome to ##c++
<Itsme-HcK> Moo.
<nav5> propfan: regarding what I was asking before. If you open the floppy disk as a binary file, you can get to data in the boot sector using CreateFile etc.
<newbie> is anyboy here thatt can help
<newbie> me
<Itsme-HcK> newbie: Just ask.
* spacemanafrica has quit IRC ("Leaving")
<propfan> nav5: createfile yes, but you probably need deviceiocontrol
<|-Wraith-LT-|> it's very likely he'll need DeviceIoControl
<newbie> i  trying to use the mingw compiler to cross compile a wxwidgtes in my gentoo box to a win32
* fatbrain has left ##c++
<newbie> but i tells me that he doesnt find the .h
<|-Wraith-LT-|> unless they're doing it from a driver
<vincenz> MEh
<newbie> what can i do
* DaHoC has joined ##c++
<propfan> give it the .h
* dolch has quit IRC ("Quit")
<newbie> i dont know here it is , and i want to conf my mingw
<Mws> Moin

actual conversation from freenode.net ##C++

Built the world?

[b100dian]

Chat rooms cannot "build the world" without the http. Why hasn't this news been published on IRC? Because IRC cannot "build the world". The same argument can be used like "the messenger that built the world": the X developer talked with Y developer over (insert IM program here). Therefore that built the world. The people on that channel could have done a mailing list all the same. There is still need for HTTP to make it known..

Re:Built the world?

[Taladar]

Sure there is, but http is not real-time-multi-user-interactive. IRC fills that niche. IM fills the real-time-two-users-interactive, http forums and wikis the non-real-time-multi-user-interactive, email fills the non-real-time-two-users-non-interactive, mailing-lists or nntp fill the non-real-time-multi-user-non-interactive niche, ...

You can not build everything just on one of those, you always need most of them at the same time to be efficient.

Re:Built the world?

[brxndxn]

Yes.. the article is wrong on a technicality.. because it states "build the world" instead of "vitally important to the development of much software".. So, because it uses some sensationalist exaggeration to boost interest, HTTP is more deserving of that title..

But then again.. http was made possible by computers - so computers built the world! Oh wait.. computers were made by man - so man built the world! oh wait.. man was evolved from monkeys.. so monkeys built the world! and then skip a few steps..

the world was built by a 'big bang' when the entire known universe, compressed smaller than the size of an atom, exploded into one beautiful starry sky..

Re:Built the world?

[novus ordo]

IRC is just a medium like any other. There are countless ways for like-minded people to get together on the Internet and one can't say one way is preferrable to another. For example, some chatrooms have links to a website where you can paste your code so you don't spam the chat with your 2037502893 lines of incomprehensibility. There are also many message boards and websites where developers can exchange knowledge. Also lets not forget Linus and newsgroups. IRC is just another way for people to get help, and maybe somewhere along the way somebody else will say "Hey, that's something cool, you need some help with it?" and something new will be born.

Re:Built the world?

[dkf]

http is not real-time-multi-user-interactive

Did you know that you can hack it so that it becomes exactly that? Not very bandwidth efficient though.

We use irc at work

[Kalroth]

At work we've got a semi-private irc channel where the majority of the developers and lead developers hang out.
It's a simple way of communication and it excels in situations where not all people are in-house, especially in situations where I want to paste 12 lines of code/xml/etc. to a colleague and ask him if it'd work against his interface/service/etc.

Just as long as people remember that it's a second form of communication, nothing can beat actually being physically present :)

Re:We use irc at work

[PhraudulentOne]

So do we - we are an ISP that links up with 4 other ISPs, and together we have a fairly large regional network. All the tech guys hang out on an internal IRC server for easy communication. I just have a CTCP PAGE make my sound card buzz if someone needs to get my attention. It's nice for pasting configs, explaining commands, etc

irc w/out ego

[kubla2000]

irc w/out ego??? hahahahaha.

Re:irc w/out ego

[javaxman]

irc w/out ego??? hahahahaha.

That was my first reaction as well. Clearly this was article was written by someone who has never, ever used IRC.

Even helpful people on the net are often that way just to get the gratification of being an 'expert'. I should know...

Oh the irony

[johnjaydk]

IRC is nowadays usually blocked in the corporate firewalls since it's often used to control bot armies. At the same time it's one of the most usefull resources for quick help. It's often a good way to get directly in touch with developers of the f/oss software your using.

What will they think of blocking next ? mailing lists ?

Re:Uh oh... EfNET is going down....

[iLogiK]

don't know about efnet, but i got this when I joined:
"New channel peak: 294" :D

I read the title wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

M0r3 leik a werd ch4ng1ng meidum!

IRC has its merits

[Anonymous Coward]

IRC, as far as I am concerned from having spent many a year on them helping others & learning as well, is a good place to learn & share ideas on things technical regarding computers imo!

In fact, I spent a good portion of the mid to late 1990's there modding/adminning one on Dalnet in #Windows95 (a Win32 OS tech help channel that K. Mardem Bey endorsed as that network's "official Win32 OS help channel" or something like that, as its title & standing on that network).

It was a good crew there initially, but like all things, nothing lasts forever - that channel no longer holds that designation for that IRC network afaik, but when it did it was a great place to go for tech help & just making friends with common interests.

What did I get out of that experience?

Well, MOSTLY, I personally learned a great deal on how Tcp/IP works, and that was because the #Linux channel would start "hack fights" with us weekly, w/out fail...

Programming wasn't a "big topic" there, & I think I may have been only 1 of 2-3 coders that went there to THAT particular channel, so it wasn't something of note being discussed there a great deal.

That end of things I learned on my own more & more as time passed, in coding.

However, that channel was LOADED with network administrators & network security & forensics personell, & I took advantage of it, & learned from and WITH them, regularly.

IRC helped me "round out" my skills in computers as far as I am concerned.

IMO, a computer person today cannot just "be a coder" or "be a network administrator/tech/engineer" but, has to be most ALL of those things... yes, a "return to yesteryear/the old days" when the computer guy @ any particular shop wasn't a specialist in some particular area, but a jack-of-all-trades.

You have to understand (to a decent degree @ least) most ALL of the particulars in computing today, in order to function & contribute as well as be marketeable in this field.

The attacks by the #Linux channel I mention (mainly each time a new Win32 OS vulnerability turned up & they would exploit them) earlier on?

That, in turn, taught me to start looking for various ways to seal off & secure Windows NT-based OS!

That research on my end resulted in this article I put up for others for years to use in how to do so as well, securing their Windows NT-based (NT/2000/XP/Server 2003):

http://www.avatar.demon.nl/APK.html

It works, enjoy the read... much of it came from researches based on being attacked on IRC, so good did come out of "the bad"...

Anyhow - So, some good comes out of the bad (being attacked by the #Linux folks regularly & it was bad, one time resulting in my system actually being compromised - but, the guy who did it was nice enough to point out HOW he did it to me).

I learned much as did my colleagues @ that channel over the years we spent there sharing our knowledge with one another.

IRC is good stuff (or, used to be @ least), as a whole, & is a far faster medium than say, forums boards like this or email, mainly imo because it's in "realtime", & instantaneous information exchange, no waiting @ all (provided the folks you want to talk with are present that is).

The only thing that bugs me nowadays about it is the dangers present on it, & they are there and real, so watch out what you get from others there via DCC transfers is all I can say!

(DCC's typically not something to trust out there, & a vector for 'infectors' that is typically utilized, so watch what you get offered there... it could be a trojan horse, is all I can say).

APK

Re:IRC has its merits

[DrDr0ne]

Youre using a lot of @ there, are you trying to tell us you want ops? ;P

It's so 80s

[LaughingCoder]

I've used IRC in the past and I thought it was pretty good for what (and when) it was. However, it could have used some serious usability improvements. I found that, if you "lived" in IRC you got accustomed to its quirks, but if you used it intermittently there were startup pains each time as you got re-acquinted with its idiosyncracies. Now admittedly it's been awhile since I used it, but from what I recall it was: text based only, used this bizarre "so-and-so wants to chat with you" popup if they were sending you a file, had a built-in server list that kept getting out of date, and was very hostile to newbies. What would be cool is if something more usable like AIM (the horror!) could emerge. Maybe to get a screen name you would register your areas of expertise (C++, Image Processing, whatever) and then you might even have to answer a few quiz questions. That might keep out the riff-raff. Just a thought.

Re:It's so 80s

[Taladar]

Half of the things you describe are client-specific (you probably used mirc which could really use some improvements), the other half is too tech-help-channel specific to be built into IRC itself. It would probably be better to implement something like that as a Service (a la Chanserv or Nickserv) on top of IRC.

Re:It's so 80s

[meringuoid]

Now admittedly it's been awhile since I used it, but from what I recall it was: text based only

Exactly as it should be. What do you expect, a 3D environment like some sort of MMORPG?

used this bizarre "so-and-so wants to chat with you" popup if they were sending you a file

That sort of thing would depend on what client you were using, I imagine.

had a built-in server list that kept getting out of date

Well, people do move their servers. The main services will stay put, though.

and was very hostile to newbies.

OMG j00 L4M3R!!!!!!1! w0t u u51n ther, win3.1? rofl lol lol lol. asl plz? Which is to say, yeah, I'll give you that one :-)

Re:It's so 80s

[JPriest]

For the most part WWW based message boards have now filled that void.

Very frequent mistake.

[Anonymous Coward]

Confusing signalto noise with relevance.

Technical thinking can be a liability at times.

Just picture someone mining: hours and hours of tiresome digging until a giant nugget comes up.

This is _one_ of the reasons I favour anonymous posting.

Many good comments are lost because they get a zero rating and are not read. Sometimes some jerk even qualifies an important remark as offtopic which makes me even need to browse at negative levels.

I miss the earlier Slashdot days without karma when you made a joke and people understood and laughed. Now I'm losing the grip, or people don't understand or they don't find it funny anymore... I'm gonna hope it's the first one... :-/

What I expect

[oztiks]

From this artical i expect alot of cyinics, these guys must of 1st logged onto the internet with xp or 2000, maybe even windows 98. For the trumpet winsock users and 95 users, IRC was the only way to go since the days of IM apps came in and crept into the scene but even then real IRCers never really forgone IM over IRC so it was never really an issue.

Since skype and yahoo chat came along this was the time people started saying "text chat? why?" but still IRC has kept its stature with various communities, esspecailly programmers. Hackers is another one of these communities which they've gone and formed their own chat networks (box.sk) and other various groups such as w00w00.

"Back in the day" IRC was awsome fun for me, great for online trouble making, fun, but not detrimental fun and the various circles i was invloved in was usually the #coders and #linux chat lines and it was great i remember having conversations with one of the developers of ext3 on efnet and wheather he was the real deal or not the guy had the know how to back it and it did lead to alot of what i wished to aspire too in my nerdish goals.

IRC is with ego though, esspecially on #linux, its as if people race to beat the other guy in offering advise! and as for the hacking communities (the dark side) its their little corner of the internet that is unhampered to this day .

But heck its our online chat "roots" and for that it should be appriciated and respected for what it still is..

No /. effect on efnet.

[Anonymous Coward]

If it had any effect, it didn't show up in the graphs: http://searchirc.com/network/EFnet,daily

IRC has gone downhill lately

[jonwil]

Even the warez channels suck (assuming you can find something to download, you end up in a queue with about 5000 other people). At least with p2p, you can just leave it running and it will download eventually.
Plus with p2p, you can pause it (and shut down the PC, reboot, close the program, whatever) and come back later and it will continue where you left off.

Oh and does anyone know of an IRC client for windows that is open source and which has good DCC functionality including DCC resume?

Re:IRC has gone downhill lately

[spxero]

I've used mirc & sysreset (mirc with some customizing) and they both allowed DCC resume. Personally I've found that even in queue downloads faster than p2p. Most p2p I've seen have had crappy speeds, but I can get one good, fast connection speed from an irc bot.

Re:IRC has gone downhill lately

[jonwil]

mirc is not Open Source (which is what I said in my original post)

Re:IRC has gone downhill lately

[Breakfast Pants]

Why do you care if it is open source if you are just using it for warez channels anyway, N00B.

#WinProg

[ilitirit]

I remember using #WinProg a few years ago when I started learning Win32. Sure enough, it was a helpful resource, but at the time the regulars (not all though) were some of the most arrogant, egotistical (and in many cases, unhelpful) people I had ever come across.

Typical conversations:
[ilitirit] how do i check the class styles for a certain FOOBAR?
[winprogger] learn to use Spy++, n00b
[ilitirit] ok, where do i can get Spy++?
[winprogger] AARGH!!! are you stupid or something? it's PART OF VS 98!!!
[ilitirit] i'm using Borland's commandline compiler.
[winprogger] ....

[ilitirit] how do i create window without a titlebar?
[winprogger] how do not run into tree and smash your nose?
[ilitirit] ????
[winprogger] YOU JUST DON'T DO IT!!! don't specify that it should have one!! sheesh. is everyone suddenly getting dumber or something?
[ilitirit] erm... i don't think you can do that
[winprogger] lol
[winprogger] ...
[winprogger] ok

not too mention the countless "IT'S IN THE DAMN TUTORIAL FFS!!!" responses...

Re:#WinProg

[smallguy78]

What's with the three dots? It really f***ing bugs this shit out of me when people write "..." in a game or in IRC after you say something. Is it meant to mean you've typed something stupid or something? Is it a virtual silence? The person doing it just comes across as a giant a-hole to me.

Re:#WinProg

[CoderBob]

It's the equivalent to the look of "gods, you're stupid." If you're referring to this:

[winprogger] lol
[winprogger] ...
[winprogger] ok

It translates as:

Winprogger laughs, then realizes the guy isn't joking. Gives the slight raised eyebrow, eye-rolled up look of "You're joking, right? Oh god he's not. Where the fuck is the chlorine for the gene pool?" Winprogger says "okay", as a way of saying "this isn't worth my time to argue."

Yes, it's asshole-ish. A lot of people are assholes. Welcome to life. If you have a complaint, take a number. We're currently seeing number 2 still, but there are only 441 231 452 249 321 complaints ahead of yours.

Re:#WinProg

[C0rinthian]

Thats my normal usage. It indicates a deliberate pause in conversation. (I.E. someone says something really stupid and all you can do is stare in disbelief.)

/Giant A-hole

Re:#WinProg

[smallguy78]

sorry but it comes accross as the linguistical tool of the socially inept. Why not just say you shouldn't be using borland command liner compiler. ...

Re:#WinProg

[Breakfast Pants]

It means, "Are you fucking serious?" There is a particular motion one can make the head, moving it forward and simultaneously opening the eyes wider, that is available in physical communication, "..." is the equivalent in text. The same emotion just can't be captured with, "you shouldn't be using borland command liner compiler."

Class Distinction

[Anonymous Coward]

I've found that useful channels are few and far between. There are genuinely helpful people out there willing to assist you in a manner that no documentation could hope of. Yet, most tech channels I've visited are generally geared towards seasoned developers who wish to speak of new or old ground broken or some strange thing they've encountered. If you're not a seasoned developer, your question is likely to get a simple, thoughtless answer or a "rtfm." So, I feel there's been a shift in attitude from the older days that sweeps across much of IRC, in general; it's an attitude of elitism and snobbishness that affects both tech and non-tech channels, alike.

Re:Class Distinction

[Cctoide]

I second that. Go to #perl (or any programming language IRC channel) and you'll find someone discussing something completely off-topic.

Then, ask a question, and you'll get RTFMed, either because "you're just too dumb", "you're using Windows", "you're not using Linux", "you're using the wrong distro" or "I don't want to help you". Wait a few minutes and you'll be greeted by some developers talking about a weird new feature that's supposed to be in a version of some software that'll never come out.

The problem is that there are some helpful people, but in a channel of 300+ users, mostly idlers, their attempts to help serious people get lost in the merciless newbie-bashing performed by the channel's owners or oldbies. The "don't ask to ask" policy just doesn't work; ask to ask, and you'll get flamed. Ask a question, and, if you're lucky, you won't get flamed, you'll just get a witty reply. I don't see how IRC can "change the world", seeing as most of what it has accomplished so far has been pissing people off.

Re:Class Distinction

[Ash-Fox]

Strange you say that... I've always been given URLs to documentions rather than "RTFM", which was really helpful.

Without Ego???

[EddyPearson]

What do u mean "without ego" IRC is the most egocentric protocol on the net ;) Its all a bunch of geeks hanging out on chan with names like #null0r and #l33tkr3w trying to impress people who they don't know on the other side of the world, by tring to out-geek them in certain aspects, all the time ever chasing that elisive @ sign!

Re:Without Ego???

[kevinadi]

The IRC Wired mentioned in the article is not the IRC I know. Must be from the 70s or something.

IRC is the single most useless crap on the internet right now. Total waste of bandwidth if you ask me, ever since 1995. Judging from the replies in this topic, my experiences are not unique. Generally everybody is pissed off with IRC people. Out-geeking people is actually the least annoying aspect of it. It's the power corrupt syndrome, where in IRC you'll see it in full force.

I especially hated the ops that seems to have the thought that having an '@' in front of your name means that you can do whatever you please with no consequences. Once an op kicked me repeatedly out of a channel just because it's 11pm. Anyway at that time the latest windows is win95, with the glorious ping flood bug still intact. I admit this sounds so geeky, but I do have the pleasure of crashing his comp many many times that day. I just stopped short of putting a backdoor in his comp, just because it's 12am :)

Re:Without Ego???

[oztiks]

and i always believed that most of the internets "out-geeking" would usually happen on /.

and it was a great place to score chicks

[solfood]

I "met" my wife on irc in 1993. It wasn't totally nerdy though because we were both on #drugs.

Sounds egotistical already

[Peldor]

"Ben Knauss calls it 'innovation in its purest form, without ego, money or fame as its goal."

In other words...we're better than everybody else. What was that about ego?

Ego

[darkitecture]

...innovation in its purest form, without ego, money or fame as its goal.

As anyone who has ever had to deal with 13 year old script kiddies sucking their way up to 499 ops status can vouch for, this isn't entirely true ;)

You get what you bring

[ChaoticCoyote]

Every online community has problems, whether it be mailing lsts, forums, IRX, IM — the anonymity of the web leads to reflects humanity in its rawest form. That said, I've found IRC to be immesely useful, so long as I go to the right servers and channels. I don't spend all day on IRC, but I pop in now and then, when I have time to answer questions or when I've got a quetion of my own. I usually don't try IRC until I've Goggled for a solution. The best network is irc.freenode.net; I find efnet and others are filled with spammers, bots, porn peddlers, and other rif-raf. FreeNode has some excellent channels — #gentoo-amd64 was essential to getting my Opteron workstation running back when Gentoo-AMD64 was still experimental.

But why IRC?

[MysticOne]

I've never figured out why it is that IRC is so popular. It tends to be unstable, it's architecture lends itself to takeover attempts where services aren't in place (and even then if services goes down), and the noise level is pretty high. It's just always amazed me that it's still so popular today despite being so, well, crappy. I'm not really trying to plug a project here, but I do think it's somewhat relevent to the discussion. I've been messing around with PSYC, the Protocol for Synchronous Communication. I have to say it's pretty promising, and it even has an IRC interface so legacy IRC clients can connect and use its services. There's also a PSYC client, access via telnet, XMPP/Jabber, SMTP, NNTP, POP3, and even a few things using SIP. I'd urge anyone who is interested in communication and collaboration to check it out. Basically you end up with a more or less decentralized network for IRC. It works in some ways like Jabber, as rooms/channels exist on certain servers, but there can never be any nick collisions or takeover attempts, rooms can't be taken over, no splits, etc. It's pretty interesting, at least IMHO. :)

Paste servers

[Evil Grinn]

They even have their own kind of spam:

http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/GtDfqA30.html/

Re:Paste servers

[Evil Grinn]

Dammit.. extra / at the end. http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/GtDfqA30.html

*Ahem*

[DNS-and-BIND]

IRC does not have "chat rooms". AOL has chat rooms. IRC has channels.

Re:*Ahem*

[Old Wolf]

IRC does not have "chat rooms". AOL has chat rooms. IRC has channels.

And the difference is ....?

Let me guess - "chat rooms" have a lower average IQ than "channels" ?

Attitude and usefulness

[Craig Ringer]

It really depends on:

1. What the channel is (a eg on freenode -dev channel isn't the best place to ask newbie questions, #gimp isn't a good place to ask any questions, #python tends to be very forgiving of newbies, etc) and where it is
2. The people on that channel (duh!)
3. To an extent the topic you're interested in, since that seems to affect (1) and (2) rather strongly
4. Your attitude and approach when asking for help
5. How much effort you've put into finding out for yourself first
6. How you respond if directed to a FAQ (tip: don't say "oh, I don't want to read that, can you explain it to me now?")

In general, I find there are unhelpful places full of jerks, and some great channels full of people who're great to talk to and work with. Most channels are inbetween, and at least on freenode (the main IRC server I use) tend toward "great and helpful".

IRC Is Powerful

[fire-eyes]

IRC certainly is a powerful communications medium. I first talked to a woman, who i later lived with for 3 years as my girlfriend, on IRC. She is the most important person in my life, though we are not currently together.

This weekend, I am leaving to visit the Netherlands for a job opportunity. How did this happen? By mentioning I was looking for a job, while I was on IRC. Someone I had talked to for years knew his employer was looking for someone like me, and the rest is history.

No doubt about it, IRC has changed my life in major ways.

Re:IRC Is Powerful

[GigsVT]

I met my wife on IRC too. Crazy eh?

Re:IRC Is Powerful

[mrjackson2000]

one of my friends meet his wife on irc also, seems to happen quite often i guess.
now i'm wondering when it's my turn.

Re:IRC Is Powerful

[in7ane]

IRC: Where men are men, women are men and children are FBI agents

Re:IRC Is Powerful

[Morgalyn]

I met my husband in a one-two IRC-website punch, it was a channel devoted to fans of a website (which is still up, but isn't as strong as it used to be: http://conversatron.com/

Come to think of it, the vast majority of men I dated in my life (all but one, I think) I met either through chatting (IRC/BBS/whatever) or through someone I met while chatting.

I tell myself this doesn't make me a total nerd.. really...

Indeed

[boxxa]

Speaking as a developer, IRC has helped me expand learning and also help find members of projects willing to share their knowledge and work toward a common goal. Speaking as the channel is now publically posted, I don't believe the expierence level of it will be as high but for people who truely use IRC, there is a lot of other very good channels out there for anything you need.

What's Next?

[CodeHog]

There seem to be many posts claiming IRC is dead and useless. So what are the next mediums that will power technology for another 10 or 20 years? I see some references to google and yahoo, usenet, and web boards, what else? Where are nerds hanging out now? Wait, don't post it here, it will become instantly useless... :-)

Re:What's Next?

[tsaler]

Netcraft has confirmed: IRC is dead.

Re:What's Next?

[Ash-Fox]

Possibly Jabber... or IRC.

I've never used IRC!

[frankcow]

I've been geeking it up on the internet since '94, and I've never once used IRC. Am I missing something?

Re:I've never used IRC!

[bcmm]

Yes.

Re:I've never used IRC!

[Ash-Fox]

Yep.

And the #winprog channel gets /.otted

[frinkacheese]

Currently about 376 users on there, will this be the first /.otting of an IRC channel?

Re:And the #winprog channel gets /.otted

[Solosoft]

Of course not ... EFnet is a huge IRC network. I don't think even the power of slashdot could hurt it. Or all the questions and mettings on even a smaller network like slashdots sister network slashnet and the channels will get big but I don't think "slashdotted". Maybe a shitty network like my own would get killed but I don't think a big network like EFnet. There is only about 80,000 people on EFnet now. Back in 1999 I remember EFnet having over 100,000 people.

I remember DALnet even having more then that. But times have changed ... my god im getting old

For me...

[Lord Byron II]

...IRC will always be thought of as a "wretched hive of scum and villainy".

Ah, good ol' IRC

[nasor]

Any time I start to believe in the goodness of humanity I just type /list into IRC. That always clears it right up.

AJAX IRC

[ModernGeek]

I've been working on an AJAX based IRC gateway. It works with UnrealIRCd by linking as a server, and then linking the IRC chatrooms to the Web ones. It can work with or without IRC. I have a demo of it up here. It currently isn't linked to my IRC network, as the guy who runs my IRC stuff switched to some other IRCd. I thought if it was well developed, it could help modernize IRC. Once I'm done with it and have all the things it needs implemented, I'm going to GPL it.

IRC is great

[Anonymous Coward]

The people who are complaining about it here can only be people that never really put an effort into it.

Like every online community, it takes a while for you to get used to its particular culture, the habits of its users, etc. Not to mention each channel (channels, not chatrooms, please) may have its own subculture. Once you manage to get through that, IRC has potential to be a great experience. Real time chat without the limitations of IM.

What's different in IRC is that it's quite old; some channels have been around forever. When a newcomer walks in somewhere that has had the same people chatting to each other for more than 5 years, like he owns the place, of course there may be some resistance.

Also, in the case of coding channels, getting 50 people per day asking the same question that is clearly answered in easily accessible documentation and that has been thoroughly dissected in online media can be quite annoying. Especially when said documentation is hinted at in the channel's topic. Just as you are (well...) expected to RTFA in Slashdot, you are expected to RTFM in IRC.

Asking questions on IRC more difficult than C

[JPriest]

If you don't do enough research on your question you get flamed for not trying, if you ask a well researched question and overshoot the people in the chan, you get flamed anyway becasue the people would rather yell at you than hurt their egos and say they don't know the answer.

What I have found is that by the time you become skilled enough to be able to find the exact happy medium for asking questions in IRC, then you are skilled enough to not have to ask.

IRC is an inferrior meduim to NNTP and web forums anyway.

Re:Asking questions on IRC more difficult than C

[Eivind Eklund]

Different medium. They have different uses.

I find IRC more useful than web boards or Usenet for a lot of types of technical discussion, including for programming, where I get useful answers. This includes for technical areas where I've got significant experience - there's usually somebody available to discuss an arcane design issue.

Learning to navigate IRC most usefully takes a few years, though. I've been on IRC maybe 15 years, and programmed for 20-something years - and IRC is still useful...

Eivind.

IRC is helping me out with Rails dev

[5n3ak3rp1mp]

I quit my job a couple of weeks ago to try my hand at full-time Rails development (I was stuck in corporate ASP/SQL Server land for too long, with a nagging love for OS X...). I have found that #rubyonrails on freenet is "OK" for the most part, and I've already been able to help others on it as I slowly assimilate all of Ruby and Rails. I found an awesome chat client called Colloquy and I'm pretty much always on the channel lately.

Napster

[certel]

For anyone interesting, the name of music sharing software Napster came from Shawn's IRC username. Little bit of trivia for you. :)

Disagree, for the most part!

[6wl]

DISAGREE!

Maybe in the larger none specific channels, but the ones I've visited reciently for support for some OSS have been first class.

I had a problem reciently with the subversion server at work running out of random entropy (tho I didn't know this was the problem - just showed itself as people being unable to auth). The guys over at the subversion channel on Freenode helped me locate the problem (dodgy ebuild script for apr in Gentoo), and gave me a posible solution. (saved my neck that day, I had upgraded to svn 1.2.x for locking = none of the 50 developers can commit or get latest).

I agree if you go into say #gentoo and ask for anything other than a 1 line fix your out of luck, but smaller community channels are still excellent.

Re:Disagree, for the most part!

[bcmm]

I don't know what network you're talking about, but Freenode's #Gentoo has got me out of serious problems countless times, and I've helped out several users there too.

Re:Indeed: creating a world full of goldfish

[Intron]

I just signed up for cable via live chat (Comcast). It was the most tedious process imaginable. Instead of just submitting a form, you go through and answer questions (slowly) with someone who claimed to be in Canada (more likely in India, judging by grammar). At the end, I had succeeded in passing ten words of information in about 15 minutes.

I beg to differ

[MrPerfekt]

IRC is _ALL_ about ego!

#winprog != classroom skills

[PhatboySlim]

A chatroom full of idling operators, and intro CS students is not going to produce a technological breakthrough. Even if a question is asked, you'll likely get flamed for even thinking it was a good question after a significant amount of research. I'd say on average, you could learn 1 small piece of information every 20 minutes. Compare that with reading a tech-journal, or a forum. Changes are the latter is going to offer a significantly better learning tool. I agree with the others. IRC is dead, and soon, newsgroups will be too. Web-based forums will take over that just as web-based chat has overtaken IRC. I can get twice as much information in half the time just reading a coding website forum. Must have been a "slow news day" for Wired.

IRC DID help build the internet

[MrJynxx]

IRC back in the mid 90's when I first started playing with the internet was about instant collaboration. Sure there was gopher, and newsgroups for obtaining information, but gopher was slow and had 0 interactivity and newgroups just replaced BBS's.

But IRC was realtime, so if you were working on a project let's say with Bob on the other side of the world, having the ability to communcate to "Bob on the other side of the world" in realtime almost for free was amazing.

Look at all of the tools today, it's all about collaboration, where did that start! IRC/BBS/Newgroups

On a side note, where do you think the warez scene migrated to post BBS days, EFNET!

MrJynx

Re:IRC DID help build the internet

[Old Wolf]

newgroups just replaced BBS's

Not quite -- you can't play L.O.R.D. on a newsgroup
(Well, not as far as I know, anyway).

IRC Sucks...AOL and Yahoo Chat sucks...we need...

[sweetnjguy29]

...something new. A bittorrent approach to chat, that is opensource and independent of corporate and government influence, but not so open that individuals can't control chat rooms, or control them too closely, or get taken over by botnets. It needs a nice easy to use interface without having to type /join #irc or /msg sweetnjguy29 to talk to someone.

Are there any opensource projects like this?

Re:Uh oh... EfNET is going down....

[squison]

Efnet doesn't need /.'s help to go down.

That's now how I remember it

[LilGuy]

I remember going into the channel with nothing but a curiosity towards programming l33t apps in windows, and being drop kicked out the door so fast my bits got disoriented. You can't ask any simple questions like "How do I program MFC?" or "Can someone correct all my API calls?" without someone losing their cool. Meanies.

Me too!

[Animaether]

yeah, that's all...

We have been using IRC at my recommendation for many years now - quite successfully. To an extent where at one of the previous Siggraphs some of the reporters were almost more interested in our doing our communications that way than in our actual product! (oops)

It's used for internal communications, communications with betatesters, support guys, etc. We're all over the globe, so in-person meetings are just unfeasible.
It's also used for our clients as a live support medium - over any third party dedicated solutions which typically require a dedicated client, and over IM solutions ( because we prefer not to be bugged in our private tim ;) ). It also easily facilitates hooking things up to other services - such as keeping a transcript, having that sent to a client, entering it in a e-mail based ticketing system, etc.
And, of course, just as a general place for people to hang out and chat - be it about our product, or their cat's latest hairball.

Although it can't really replace in-person conferencing when really, really required, overall I think it's a near-perfect solution for what we needed it for - and I have no doubt that we'll be expanding on it in the future.

Re:IRC Sucks...AOL and Yahoo Chat sucks...we need.

[Nakamiya]

It needs a nice easy to use interface without having to type /join #irc or /msg sweetnjguy29 to talk to someone.

Ummmm no. One of the best things about irc is that it at least requires a little more intelligence and typing ability than aol or yahoo chat to use. Not much, but a little more.

Huhu

[js3]

yea back in the day winprog was a good channel, I remember when justin was working on winamp and kept posting these strange questions about skins and stuff, it seemed like a silly little pet project at the time, until he sold out to AOL for big bucks. He used to drop by everyonce in a while after that. Shawn.. I remember when shawn came on asking about how to code a network app to share music and was laughed out of there. It seemed ridicilous, this guy couldn't even code! He sure showed us. DVD jon disappeared after his first hack. I don't hang out on winprog anymore, it's full of lamers who type "huhu" all day, there are still some brilliant minds there, like this dude who works at stardock.

WOW!

[npsimons]

Ben Knauss calls it 'innovation in its purest form, without ego, money or fame as its goal.'

Hey, wow, that sounds really neat! I could of sworn I've heard about something else like this before, though. I think it was called "open sores" or something like that. Some kid from Bork-a-Bisk-a-Bork land was working on some game called "Lunix", only he not only used IRC but this thing call Ooozenet, I think. Wonder if these #winprog guys have ever heard about any of that?

(To the sarcastically impaired, no I don't want to hear your replies, corrections or criticisms. TWAJS, and I was only trying to point out that this is nothing new, only the Windows dweebs think they invented it).

World Changing...

[DJCater]

bloodninja: Ok baby, we got to hurry, I don't know how long I can keep it ready for you.
j_gurli3: thats ok. ok i'm a japanese schoolgirl, what r u.
bloodninja: A Rhinocerus. Well, hung like one, thats for sure.
j_gurli3: haha, ok lets go.
j_gurli3: i put my hand through ur hair, and kiss u on the neck.
bloodninja: I stomp the ground, and snort, to alert you that you are in my breeding territory.
j_gurli3: haha, ok, u know that turns me on.
j_gurli3: i start unbuttoning ur shirt.
bloodninja: Rhinoceruses don't wear shirts.
j_gurli3: No, ur not really a Rhinocerus silly, it's just part of the game.
bloodninja: Rhinoceruses don't play games. They f*cking charge your ass.
j_gurli3: stop, cmon be serious.
bloodninja: It doesn't get any more serious than a Rhinocerus about to charge your ass.
bloodninja: I stomp my feet, the dust stirs around my tough skinned feet.
j_gurli3: thats it.
bloodninja: Nostrils flaring, I lower my head. My horn, like some phallic symbol of my potent virility, is the last thing you see as skulls collide and mine remains the victor. You are now a bloody red ragdoll suspended in the air on my mighty horn.
bloodninja: Goddam am I hard now.

MOD PARENT UP

[rhetoric]

Half the people posting here need to read this reply and quit complaining because you didn't get what you wanted. I have never been in the # in question, but this kinda thing is common all over IRC.

help?!?!?!? are you on crack ???

[Brigadier]

Have you ever been to #linux on the undernet ? As a linux youngling back in the '90s using Redhat 5.0 on a Matrox Video card I was shuned, kicked, banned, slapped, put down. If i'm not mistaken the proper way to address a #linux op was to cower on the floor postrated, then back whispering, adoring them and showering them with compliments. But you dare not ask a question ohhh no ....

Finally...

[Mr2001]

... my signature is on topic. It's an ultra-customizable IRC client, it's open source (although WeArab Chat refuses to release source code for their changes, in flagrant violation of the GPL), and it'll run under WINE.

IRC is my brain substitute

[t35t0r]

I have often used IRC as my brain substitute. You'll always find someone there to answer your questions on just about everything.

IM and Crackberry wounded IRC at work

[spage]

We had a fabulous chat channel where I worked, everyone was on it for technical issues such as "OK if I restart Apache?" or "Anyone having login problems with new build?", as well as "So who's replacing the VP of IT?" I would leave IRC running with screen(1) and return to answer questions from India and USA East coast, and became close to people I rarely met.

But around 2003 it started dying. New hires wouldn't stay on it, they'd disconnect. I realized they were all using IM instead, even though we told users about multi-protocol clients like Trillian and Fire. Also, managers on Crackberrys and GoodLink push e-mail wanted all their interactions via e-mail. So one-to-one IM's and e-mails to small groups replaced many-to-many, even though 1-1 is so bad at those three examples I gave above.

Very sad.

More Sensationalized Crap from Wired

[gerardo734]

IRC didn't really change very much of anything and has always been a tool useful for little more than a rapid discussion forum. This by itself has been and is still useful to numerous individuals and groups who find it most convenient to commune through the internet, but there are numerous technologies that have and continue to offer equal or better services. IRC is all well and good, but calling it a "World Changing Medium" is a bit more than I can stomach. Simple as that.

Re:IRC has its merits REPLY... apk

[interiot]

When I am wrong, I will admit it

Can we quote you on that? Better yet, could you call 312-625-1433 and leave a message repeating that phrase? I'd pay anything to have an MP3 of that.

Re:IRC has its merits REPLY... apk

[interiot]

Oh noes, you got me again, I am so ashamed and embarassed. ADD, it's such a terrible curse upon me.

Oh well, if you change your mind at any time, you can call that number and leave a message.

And one of the defining traits about you is that you never ever admit you're wrong, no matter what. Just like everything else, I'm sure it's not something you're aware of, but it's true nonetheless. I'm sure others will agree (vote here or here).

Our corporate-mandated antivirus blocks IRC

[fizbin]

Officially, there's no policy against IRC or IM, and in fact IM is heavily used for business purposes here. However, there is a corporate policy that VirusScan Enterprise (from McAfee) be installed on all windows machines, and installed via the central configuration, so that no one can change any settings.

Starting with version 8.0, (did I mention that automatic upgrades were part of the locked down configuration?) all communication to "IRC ports" is blocked by VirusScan Enterprise. I can see the setting that does this; it's pretty clearly labeled and check-marked, but I cannot change it.

So there's a resource that the company will never benefit from; I hope the satisfaction of having virus control nailed down is worth the tradeoff...

Re:Our corporate-mandated antivirus blocks IRC

[Breakfast Pants]

Most of these people are talking about using it in compnaies as a private server. This means you can use any ports you want. If you want the advatages of developers visiting outside rooms for support on problems, etc. then you have a point. But in the context of this thread.. your anti-virus woes don't apply.

Re:IRC has its merits REPLY... apk

[interiot]

Yes, the poll was pretty childish. :)

As many others have said, "getting beaten up pretty badly" is really more accurately "getting bored of the sophomoric argument, and leaving".

There are several technical discussions that you've had with others where I didn't agree with your arguments 100%, but I don't wish to point out specific ones, lest you start another 278,923 pages of arguments over and over. Discussing non-technical things with you is irksome enough, thanks.

Why are you so repetitive? It gets boring after a while.

And what's going on in your normal life that's keeping you busy? You've been posting much more intermitently lately.

Re:IRC has its merits REPLY... apk

[interiot]

Agreed 110%, so why did you do something like that in the first place, if you KNOW it's childish?

Because it gave me a tiny little thrill.

Why the hell do you go out of your way, & nearly constantly make attempts that try to get my goat here

Because 1) you're trying to hide behind anonymity, which of course is just begging for someone to puncture that, and 2) I don't understand you as much as I'd like to. Nope, no past axe to grind, I swear on my mother's grave that the first time I ran into you was July 19, 2005. I want to grok everything in the universe, and you're one of the more unique people out there.

One word: WORK!

Good to hear.