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The Samus Mystique

Gamers with Jobs contributor KatarinLHC has an interesting piece looking at what she calls 'The Samus Mystique', the need for more female characters in games with the chutzpah and level-headedness of Metroid-killer Samus Aran. From the article: "Her independent streak is legendary: Samus always works alone. She explores caves, shoots enemies, and investigates secret passages, all on her own initiative. Her story does not revolve around her being kidnapped or needing rescue. Instead, she is a proactive force in a dynamic world; she does not react to her circumstances but instead interacts with them. She demonstrates a lesson not often taught to young girls, which is that working by yourself can be powerful, gratifying, even joyous."

77 comments

  1. woman? by Fluffy_Kitten · · Score: 0

    boobs!

    --
    People who have no sig are cool
  2. How far we have come... by Errandboy+of+Doom · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...in heroine attire.

    1. Re:How far we have come... by baywulf · · Score: 1

      I agree. The second one has knee high shoes.

    2. Re:How far we have come... by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      Samus's attire in that photo is after she's done with the mission and can kick back. Her mission attire is more rugged. The Nightelf is wearing clothes that she probably wears on missions. One can only conclude that Samus is a fragile flower in comparison. Also compare Motoko Kusanagi who lives in a freer society than the United States, and is extremely rugged, and even Lara Croft.

    3. Re:How far we have come... by aztektum · · Score: 1

      I would argue that that isn't the image MOST people associate with the Metroid games as "Samus' atire".

      --
      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    4. Re:How far we have come... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I've always wondered if Kusanagi has some sort of aversion to pants. Maybe she hates them because someone close to her was gruesomely maimed in front of her eyes by an industrial sewing machine making pants.

    5. Re:How far we have come... by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      A little bit of cheesecake at the end of the game is one thing. Basing the entire game on cheesecake, relying on it as a selling point (ala Tomb Raider) is something else.

      What was the last non-Metroid game you played where the heroine didn't show any cleavage before the ending, if at all?

    6. Re:How far we have come... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      Half-Life 2.

      Also Final Fantasy X.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    7. Re:How far we have come... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      She doesn't.

      Has it occurred to the Feminazis that some of these women might dress the way they do because they like it?

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    8. Re:How far we have come... by ElleyKitten · · Score: 1

      >>>What was the last non-Metroid game you played where the heroine didn't show any cleavage before the ending, if at all?

      >>Final Fantasy X


      Lulu had enough cleavage to make up for any Yuna didn't show.

      --
      "What is Internet Explorer 7? Are you saying we can't access the normal internet?" - I love tech support. Really.
    9. Re:How far we have come... by Phyvo · · Score: 1

      The problem is that it gets the attention of men for obvious reasons (to most, at least). With attire like that a woman is encouraging men to hit on them and think of them only in terms of sex, sex, and more sex. Though some guys will think like that all the time when confronted with a pretty girl, it's a lot harder for us guys to have a platonic relationship with a girl who barely wears underpants all the time. Of course, if you want to be valued only for your body...

    10. Re:How far we have come... by Kelbear · · Score: 1

      Yuna cleavage came out during the wedding scene.

    11. Re:How far we have come... by zxnos · · Score: 1

      ahh, 'jello-tits' as we affectionatly called her... ...the fully rendered scenes where just funny.

      --
      always mosh clockwise
  3. Heroines who are actualy female. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Does the world need more female main characters in games? Maybe, maybe not.

    If they're going to be heroines who both look an act like women, then yeah, I'll take that. But if they're going to be men with tits then I'd rather just have a male avatar.

    1. Re:Heroines who are actualy female. by Seumas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't know, I tend to think if the future of your entire "sex" depends on lessons learned and emulated from videogame characters, you have bigger problems. The entire article that chick wrote was one giant flame-bait. It might have had it's place in 1978, but it's 2005. Time to move on.

    2. Re:Heroines who are actualy female. by Oracle+of+Bandwidth · · Score: 1

      So true, Token girl heroes in games bug me so much. If you want to write a character who acts like a man, don't bother making a female modle.

    3. Re:Heroines who are actualy female. by MilenCent · · Score: 1

      The point isn't that women derive their entire sense of self from one videogame representation of them.

      1. It's that lots of kids play video games, and some of those play Metroid (including some young girls -- especially the cool ones). People get their views of the world and themselves from many sources, and video games are a potentially influential one since they're often targeted towards the formative years. Whether they actually influence a damn thing is up for debate, but it's certainly possible. A relatively kick-ass female protagonist could be taken as a role model for many girls. Yeah, I'd suggest they find one that wasn't a game character, but we don't get to make that choice for them.

      2. It's the old thing: we are creatures of our environment. Most female depictions are far less than complementary. A single instance may not have much effect, but if it's everywhere... and more importantly, its in the heads of all your friends and family. The cumulative effect is enormous. The author was trying to complement the Metroid series for at least contributing positively to female images of worth instead of tearing them down.

  4. I'm not sure what to think about this one... by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure what to think about this one... can somebody call up the grumpy clerk in the Gamestop in New York and ask him what he thinks?

  5. Hmm. by ScaryFroMan · · Score: 5, Funny
    "She demonstrates a lesson not often taught to young girls, which is that working by yourself can be powerful, gratifying, even joyous."

    I think it would be pretty hard to teach that lesson without taking off her suit...

    --
    In Soviet Russia, backwards is everything.
    1. Re:Hmm. by game+kid · · Score: 1
      I think it would be pretty hard to teach that lesson without taking off her suit...

      I know. Teaching young girls the "powerful, gratifying" joys of working by themselves just doesn't sound right...

      --
      You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
    2. Re:Hmm. by Seumas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You should go read the comments on that site about the article. It's like everyone forgot that the women's movement ended a long time ago. Girls - you get to vote now. You can be CEOs. You (think) you can be perfect moms *and* professional independant career women all at the same time. Really, you don't have to sit around the house all day bemoaning the fate of women characters in videogames in your blog. You're free now. You can actually go DO stuff.

      I'm all for people being equal (though that does NOT mean at all that they are same because clearly they are not and never will be). However, the best way to lose credibility in a discussion or "article" is to begin it with "I'm a feminist".

      For one thing, the term has completely lost all meaning since the "all sex is rape" crowd and others got in the mix.

  6. Unecessarily Specific by Jazu · · Score: 1

    People always end up doing this when they make too many issues out race or gender.

    She says she wants people not to judge others based on gender, than says Samus is THE ideal of womanhood. I mean, what's so great about rugged individualism? It doesn't seem so great to me, and it doesn't seem feminine either. I don't want women to become men any more than I want nem to become women, and I certainly don't want women to become Ayn Rand...

    Just stick with the ridiculous clothing complaint, that one makes much more sense.

    --
    My joke got modded as Insightful and my insight got modded as Funny.
    1. Re:Unecessarily Specific by MilenCent · · Score: 1

      1. I think it matters more what the women whan to be than what you want them to be. (Okay, that one was cheap, I admit....)

      2. Samus isn't Randian, thank god. She might look like it at first, but there is nothing she says that can allow us to make any assured statements about her own views. We don't know what the heck Samus thinks. She does her job, she gets out, if you did it fast enough she takes off some clothes, SEE YOU NEXT MISSION. As near as we can tell from this, she believes in Speed Nudism and not much else. She doesn't say a word in most games -- indeed, the one in which she says the most, Metroid Fusion, is considered by some (ex: me) to be the worst in the series.

    2. Re:Unecessarily Specific by Mattintosh · · Score: 1

      Samus isn't Randian

      Aww... Oh, wait. That's not the same word. Nevermind.

    3. Re:Unecessarily Specific by mink · · Score: 1

      She gets some dialog and thoughts in Metroid Fusion.

      --
      Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
    4. Re:Unecessarily Specific by MilenCent · · Score: 1

      Yep, mentioned that. Mentioned that I hated that, in fact.

    5. Re:Unecessarily Specific by mink · · Score: 1

      Sorry about that. For some reason I managed to not read the entire last line (I sometimes overskim even when I re-read something).

      --
      Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
    6. Re:Unecessarily Specific by MilenCent · · Score: 1

      Oh, no worries. If I got offended over something little like that, I'd have degenerated into a writhing mass of hate by now from posting so much on Slashdot.

      BTW, isn't it funny how many writhing masses of hate we see these days?

    7. Re:Unecessarily Specific by mink · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately way to many. The temptation to become one, especially on-line sometimes is hard to resist.

      I was mostly kicking myself for missing something in plane sight that I should have seen. It's also a good thing to admit one screwed up in a public forum like this so you dont get too full of yourself (IMO).

      --
      Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
    8. Re:Unecessarily Specific by MilenCent · · Score: 1

      I was mostly kicking myself for missing something in plane sight that I should have seen.

      Something plain like that?

      (Ducking, running, crying "Whoo-hoo-hoo" like Daffy Duck)

  7. Samus is a woman? by the_skywise · · Score: 1

    Yes it's a joke, but how many old-schoolers really finished the original game, with the proper hack, to know that in the US?

    1. Re:Samus is a woman? by Bagels · · Score: 1

      In many of the later games, they make it more obvious; for instance, in the Metroid Prime games, it's occasionally possible to see her face's reflection in the visor. Also, in Prime 2, you can see her face pretty well through the visor of the last suit upgrade you get, and it's obviously feminine.

      --
      --- Bwah?
    2. Re:Samus is a woman? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Plus it's now in the manual.

      And Zero Mission had a section where she ran around without her suit.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    3. Re:Samus is a woman? by despisethesun · · Score: 1

      That was the most frustrating part of the game. I almost threw my GBA into a wall several times during that sequence. It was almost as bad as the Spider Ball boss in MP2. That almost ruined the whole game for me.

      --
      This poo is cold.
    4. Re:Samus is a woman? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Exact same feeling here. If they want to make stealth games they shouldn't make them levels in popular non-stealth games. Same problem with Wind Waker's Forsaken Fortress (first pass).

      I don't think I encountered the spiderball boss but that's because the boost ball boss annoyed me so much I stopped playing.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    5. Re:Samus is a woman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ugh, those are both boss battles that leave no room for error. I DID throw my wavebird across the room several times. Once I finally beat them, it WAS worth it all, IMHO

    6. Re:Samus is a woman? by despisethesun · · Score: 1

      It was very worth it. I did a little dance when I finally got past the Spider boss. It's kept me from playing through the game a 2nd time, though, like I did with MP1.

      --
      This poo is cold.
    7. Re:Samus is a woman? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two words. And some dashes.

      Justin Bailey.

      Oh yeah. ------ ------

  8. Samus Versus Alis by feyhunde · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Samus is cool, but the way she's played her Gender doesn't matter. She is a strong professional, but the games are designed is most of the time her gender is irreverent.

    What I find to be more of an interesting character are the Phantasy Star Alis characters. The original is prolly the first RPG female lead. She's avenging the death of her brother, and does it in a pink dress. She's the swordswoman of the party and has more hp then the other characters. PS1 was also created by a lead female designer.

    Then in PS4 Alys is strong older sister character who teaches the main character everything he knows, and is the strongest character until she dies saving the rest of the party.

    Strong female leads don't have to conform to single feminist view, they can wear pretty pink dresses if they want, and still kick ass.

    --
    I'd say more, but my guild is raiding.
    1. Re:Samus Versus Alis by fwitness · · Score: 1

      "they can wear pretty pink dresses if they want, and still kick ass."

      I bet you'd like that wouldn't you?

      --
      -- I have fans? Wow.
    2. Re:Samus Versus Alis by vitaflo · · Score: 1

      Mod up, most insightful post I've seen here in a long time.

  9. Better than the rest, but... by shoptroll · · Score: 1

    It's good to give Metroid credit for Samus, true. She's not an overglorified sexual object (*cough* Lara Croft *cough* DOA/Soul Calibur *cough*).

    However, as has been pointed out, there is still the "hidden" (I use this loosely, since it's pretty much standard in every entry of the series and is well known) reward of beating the game in a short time frame which gives you Samus sans suit. This is nothing more than a fan service, and I have no idea where to place this. Is this objectification? Or not?

    On the whole, Samus has been far ahead of other heroines in games. Much farther than most of those in Final Fantasy and the like. ALthough I will say, Paula from Earthbound is one you shouldn't mess with unless you want a frying pan upside the head followed by being scorched, frozen or electrocuted ;)

    --
    Insert Sig Here
    1. Re:Better than the rest, but... by Seumas · · Score: 1

      And what exactly is wrong if it is objectification?

      We base our entire choice of sex-partner, mate and societal/species evolution and propegation on objectification. You think women (and society in general) don't pick and judge males on a certain set of objectified traits such as height, weight, income, profession and posession? Men and women and society objectify each other in every way possible - especially when choosing who we're interested in sexually and who we are interested in as characters. Why do you think the likes of Jack Black and Chris Farley are anomolies?

      It's not a bad thing. It's how we've evolved. It's how we continue to exist. Should a girl really be insulted every time a man compliments her on the way she looks or takes a moment to observe the nice package she's put together in appealing clothing for the day? If so, should I be insulted every time the first thing a woman asks is "what do you do for a living?" or when her girlfriends ask before any other question "what kind of car does your boyfriend drive"? Hell no. Because that's what I'm judged on - as a male. Just like women are judged on certain objectifying attributes and accomplishments.

      There's nothing disrespectful about finding only certain parameters entertaining in a videogame or movie character anymore than there is in finding only certain parameters appealing in a person face to face in your real life.

      You all might want to live in some doped-up androgynous THX 1138, but I sure as hell do not.

    2. Re:Better than the rest, but... by 6ame633k · · Score: 1

      You can rationalize it all you want, but I think this is the real issue - 'objectification' or depersonification is also used to describe the way we treat other people as objects, in particular the way men can treat women as sex 'objects'. By reducing other people to things, it permits us to treat them with less care and human concern, bypassing our values around this subject.

      --
      You had me at merlot
    3. Re:Better than the rest, but... by Strell · · Score: 1

      I could be wrong here, but I wanted to say that it would only count as objectification if she were to be portrayed in a hugely sexual manner. I haven't beaten the Primes but from my experience with the original games, it was meant more like a "guess what - you just kicked all that ass by playing a girl." I mean, if she were bent over licking her phaser arm with a glazed look on her face, with dead space pirates all around her, sweat dripping...off....of.....

      Damn, that would be hot.

      Joking aside, perhaps it's a form of objectivity, but it's not hugely egregious. Definitely not nearly the level other games do to their heroines. Though, I guess that concession does negate my argument...anyway....I really hate how Taki is portrayed. She's a total hardass, and Namco always make her character art overly sexual.

      On a somewhat unrelated note, Earthbound is the greatest game ever. Ever.

      --
      I'm not scared of anonymous cowards.
    4. Re:Better than the rest, but... by shoptroll · · Score: 1

      Yeah. I agree with your point. I don't find them objectifying. I was just wondering if any women would consider the endings objectification? Of course, it's no more objectifying than your local lingerie model. *shrugs*

      On a somewhat unrelated note, yay for Mother 3 almost being done!

      --
      Insert Sig Here
    5. Re:Better than the rest, but... by Mattintosh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      By reducing other people to things

      Umm... People are things. So are trees. So are rocks. So are pieces of paper, houses, shingles on the roof of a house, shingles still in stacks at the hardware store, and boobies. And when I say boobies, I mean... well, about 4 or 5 different things. Red-footed, blue-footed, masked, udders, teats, and a HUGE RACK.

      Things are things. See also: Noun.

      This is why I hate people that gripe about objectifying other people. Our brains perceive everything as an object, including other people! That's just the way we as humans work. We even have names for objects that represent groups of objects. Words like "traffic" or "galaxy". We have names for objects that represent groups of people, like "race" and "nationality". Our brains identify, clarify, and categorize everything around us.

      And then someone gets all touchy-feely and has a fit because they don't like how they're being treated by someone. Here's my advice to that person: walk away. Just walk away and ignore it. They're either clueless or they're baiting you. If you throw a fit, more people will notice, then there will be larger doses of people baiting you, while the rest of everyone who still doesn't give a rat's ass about your problem will begin finding ways to hate you. And the more the baiters get you to gripe, the more people hate you, and the haters' numbers will grow. And then you'll whine and cry and bitch and piss and moan until everyone hates your guts and/or pokes you with a stick to get you to make more fuss. And then (hopefully) someone will shoot you and put you out of our misery. Yes, that's your choice: walk away and shut the hell up or die a miserable death.

      Erm... sorry. I got a little carried away there.

    6. Re:Better than the rest, but... by 6ame633k · · Score: 1

      That's just semantics...and a gross oversimplification...you have to differentiate between inanimate "objects" (hardware stores, houses, shingles, RACKS, etc) and people - inanimate "objects" lack the dimensions that human "objects" have: thoughts, feelings, hope, aspirations, love, hate, etc.

      Reducing someone to an object means just that - you might as well be treating them like rock.

      Games pander to and are created by men who "tend to" objectify women - duh! It's a boyz club and the girls want in. I don't know about you, but I would like to see more women interested in playing games - cause your sure as shit not going to get them to watch football with you!

      --
      You had me at merlot
  10. Joyous? by YaRness · · Score: 1

    Who the hell describes playing video games as "joyous"? Don't undercut the valuable ideals of equality by pandering to women with vacuous, feel-good language.

    1. Re:Joyous? by MilenCent · · Score: 1

      Who the hell describes playing video games as "joyous"? Don't undercut the valuable ideals of equality by pandering to women with vacuous, feel-good language.

      I do, muthafucka!

      Indeed, I can't think of a more appropriate adjective to explain Katamari Damacy. Sometimes, the word fits.

    2. Re:Joyous? by macshome · · Score: 1

      Who doesn't? Games should evoke a range of emotions. One of the strongest I've felt was the sense of wonderment the first time you walk into the fountain of the Great Fairy in Zelda Ocinara of Time.

      If the only emotions in the games you play are anger and rage then you are really missing out.

    3. Re:Joyous? by Catnapster · · Score: 1
      Indeed, I can't think of a more appropriate adjective to explain Katamari Damacy.
      Trippy?
      --
      The world can be wrong today for once.
  11. Metroid Makes the Gender Arbitrary by quantax · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While I agree with the author that more realistic renditions of females as people as opposed to objects needs to be done, I hardly consider Samus to be representative of this as her sex is completely arbitrary to the gameplay and in fact is only revealed in the very end of Super Metroid in a 'look whos inside' type of way. In fact, I would argue that No One Lives Forever, even with Cait Archer wearing her sexy jumpsuits, makes for a better female role than Samus as she actually speaks and makes her personality known throughout the game. While shes still representative of the sexual-object female spy, its done purposefully tongue-in-cheek the entire time, and her lines do not lend towards her being a 'dumb broad with guns'.

    Another and better example is Alyx from Half-Life 2: Shes dressed sensibly and while cute, is not super-hot or a walking example of anatomical disproportion. Her lines are ones you'd expect from an intelligent person in her situation and shes more than capable of fending for herself as she does many times in the games, sometimes it seemed better than yourself as Gordon. Other than Alyx, its hard to name a female character that is like her in her sensibilities and generally realistic interactions; she was a person. Even Cait Archer is a purposeful stereotype for all her interactions & cleverness.

    I look forward for the day that females in games are representated as people and not simply as women.

    --
    "What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years? Nothing." -Bokonon
    1. Re:Metroid Makes the Gender Arbitrary by Txiasaeia · · Score: 1
      While I agree with the author that more realistic renditions of females as people as opposed to objects needs to be done, I hardly consider Samus to be representative of this as her sex is completely arbitrary to the gameplay and in fact is only revealed in the very end of Super Metroid in a 'look whos inside' type of way.

      The idea is that women can do the same things as men can, right? So you've got various male characters in the Castlevania series kicking zombie butt through various locales, and you've got a female character in the Metroid series kicking Metroid butt through various locales. The first is a stereotype, the second shows that women can kick ass too.

      Your points about Archer & Alyx are well-taken, but the role of Metroid-killer doesn't necessitate a woman - the person in the power armour could be a guy, and it wouldn't change the plot in any significant way. The fact that the designers chose to use a woman rather than a man is, in my opinion, rather progressive, especially since she doesn't romp around in her undergarments whilst killing aliens.

      --
      Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
    2. Re:Metroid Makes the Gender Arbitrary by Seumas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What I love about women like this are that they whine and moan about how all men want to see in movies and videogames is hot stereotypical slender, big-breasted, young attractive women. They say men aren't open-minded enough and are too obsessive with physical aspects.

      These same women almost never have an issue with men having to play the stereotypical bread-earning, work from birth to death, live shorter lives, provide stabilitiy and security roles, do they? And these same women (I've been around them in gab-sessions where they've said as much) turn around and talk about how all they want is a man who's at least 6'2" tall or he doesn't even get a chance to *talk* to her, has a six-pack belly, drives a NICE car and has a big penis.

      So I take complaints about how men only want stereotypically hot women with a grain of salt, since it's all BS> It's not just men with women. It's how we are as a species, ALL TOGETHER. And that's the biological way it's supposed to be. No big deal.

      After all, who wants to play a chunkster or a fugly loser? Come on.

    3. Re:Metroid Makes the Gender Arbitrary by grumbel · · Score: 1

      ### in fact is only revealed in the very end of Super Metroid in a 'look whos inside' type of way

      Little correction, in the NES and Gameboy parts its only revealed in the end and only if you beat the game fast enough, in SuperMetroid, MetroidFusion and MetroidZero its already revealed when you die, since then the suit explodes away and you can see who is in there.

      Beside from that you are right, the female in Metroid is nothing more then a running gag, it doesn't matter to the game itself at all.

    4. Re:Metroid Makes the Gender Arbitrary by easychord · · Score: 1

      The fact that the designers chose to use a woman rather than a man is, in my opinion, rather progressive, especially since she doesn't romp around in her undergarments whilst killing aliens.

      It's more likely to be indicative of the designers being influenced by the Alien films but not being able to feature a pixelated woman wearing underwear. I suppose that It was progressive enough of them to keep the character as a woman instead of using generic male action hero #3.

      As for the bigger breakthrough of female leads in games, Tomb Raider, I'm sure that only happened because the lawyers told them to make the game as unlike Indiana Jones as possible while still obviously being the same. By luck, Lara Croft became the feminist gaming star for a while.

      I'd bet that the only way for feminists to get the game characters they want by design instead of chance would be if they started funding game development themselves.

    5. Re:Metroid Makes the Gender Arbitrary by crashfrog · · Score: 1

      I look forward for the day that females in games are representated as people and not simply as women.

      You mean, perhaps in a game that makes a female character's gender completely arbitrary and irrelevant to the plot?

      It seems to me that you've just asked for exactly what you criticized Metroid for delivering.

      --
      I never have frustrations, the reason is, to wit:
      If at first I don't succeed, I quit!
  12. Samus? by Seumas · · Score: 1

    SAMUS?!

    I've been ripped off. Call my IP lawyer!

    PS: I don't care about gender in a game. I care about gameplay and character development. And no, I don't necessarily want to play a fat chunky ugly female character rather than a hot big-titted one, but I don't want to play a fat ugly chunky loser male character either. Male characters in games are just as "stereotyped" and generic and unoriginal as the female ones. So what? So are magazine covers. So are movies. So are characters in most books. So are most anime characters. My vote goes to stop whining and start playing more.

    1. Re:Samus? by MilenCent · · Score: 1

      Male characters in games are just as "stereotyped" and generic and unoriginal as the female ones. So what? So are magazine covers. So are movies. So are characters in most books. So are most anime characters. My vote goes to stop whining and start playing more.

      But what if we don't want to play more, because of all the afore-mentioned steretypes? Because we have the same opinion on those movies, books and (especially) anime characters?

      Flat characters DO have a role to play, even in good writing. But most haves have nothing but flat characters, and that's bad, especially when the player is supposed to closly identify with the protagonist, who's usually the flattest of the bunch.

      (Any moment now, someone will say "Lara Croft may be many things, but she sure-as-hell ain't FLAT!" and chuckle in a fratboyish fashion. I wait painfully for that moment.)

    2. Re:Samus? by Seumas · · Score: 1

      Well, then stop playing those games. Movies have attractive, stereotypical characters in them, because that's what sells. You go to see a movie, becuase Angelina Jolie is in it - not because Kathy bates is in it. You can say "but that's not what I want" and that's fine, but you're not the majority and commercial success lies in satisfying the majority of people.

      So you can have games where you play a balding middle aged chunkster in his mom's basement or a weflare queen with six kids and four ex husbands living in a trailer park, but that will never achieve more than underground success and you will never play, say, an MMORPG that isn't filled with the stereotypical kinds of characters you'd expect. Why? Because there wont' be much of a community to rally around it, since most will go for the generic, already done stuff.

      And, again, there's nothing wrong with the whole sexualization, objectification, sterotypical male/female characters. After all, that's how you pick your mate and you treat people based on how they live up to those attributes in real life. Why should games be any different?

      And if it's just guys to blame for all this horrible stuff, watch a girl play the Sims and see what kind of characters she creates.

    3. Re:Samus? by MilenCent · · Score: 1

      Well, then stop playing those games.

      I already do. But the economics of opportunity are getting in the way; companies can make more money by sinking it into dreck than into the next Katamari.

      You go to see a movie, becuase Angelina Jolie is in it - not because Kathy bates is in it.

      NO comma I DO NOT period

      Indeed, over time it seems to me that the "hotness factor" of the lead actress is mattering less and less.

      Movies have attractive, stereotypical characters in them, because that's what sells.

      Actually, they sell for other reasons. These reasons are not always good ones, but still.... This is why the Tomb Raider games are remembered much less fondly the further into the series you go, although Lara Croft is objectified more and more as it continues.

      So you can have games where you play a balding middle aged chunkster in his mom's basement or a weflare queen with six kids and four ex husbands living in a trailer park, but that will never achieve more than underground success and you will never play, say, an MMORPG that isn't filled with the stereotypical kinds of characters you'd expect.

      Actually... in City of Heroes, the most interesting characters, it seems, are the ones who choose to play "non-traditional" heroes. I've already encountered two people playing tranvestites, and honestly, they tend to show rather more personality than Random Miss Zappy.

      Why? Because there wont' be much of a community to rally around it, since most will go for the generic, already done stuff.

      Er, don't you see how you've argued against your point? MMORPGs may attempt to build a community by going after scantilly-clad fantasy archetypes, but the fact is most of the worlds of these games don't have an awful lot to distinguish them from each other. Meaning that gamers can jump ship between fairly easily, as they come to be seen more and more as being synonyms for each other.

      And, again, there's nothing wrong with the whole sexualization, objectification, sterotypical male/female characters. After all, that's how you pick your mate and you treat people based on how they live up to those attributes in real life. Why should games be any different?

      Again with the second person perspective, argh! I'd like to respond with the deference due to your low ID number, but still....

      I will admit that if Angelina Jolie were to show up out of the blue and want to spend time with me that I wouldn't exactly refuse her... but that's probably only over the very short term. Xeni Jardin (the BoingBoing gal) is hotter any day of the week, 'cause she's got a brain in her head.

    4. Re:Samus? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Xeni Jardin doesn't have a brain in her head. She's only popular among the elitist blog crowd (and at that, mostly just the one at boingboing). She only has some popularity because the mind-numbed basement dwelling dorks of the internet haven't gotten out enough to see what a hot chick looks like, so they think that some wrinkled, over-made-up, clearly face-lifted, over-40 dyed-blonde gitch is actually "hot" and somehow morphed that into "wow, she's smart". So she can string a few words together. Great.

      Have you actually seen her on one of her countless (and pointless) cable "news" appearances?

      Come on. She's a nobody. If she didn't look like she does (which, in my opinion, is only hot if you're 60 years old and see her as a "younger babe" relatively), she wouldn't get an ounce of press. How many other popular tech bloggers can yout hink of that have her notariety and look like the "average" chick?

      And for that matter, remember those "real world" barbies that they tried to sell awhile back? The ones with "real woman's proportions"? Yeah. The ones that little girls refused to buy, so they stopped selling them?

      Face it. Nobody likes a fat chick (nobody likes a fat dude, either). Nobody likes fugly people, regardless of intelligence (except for men, if the man has a lot of money which makes up for his fugliness). Stop trying to stick your head in the sand and pretend that people only judge based on your utopian ideals of intelligence and personality. That ain't how the world rotates.

    5. Re:Samus? by MilenCent · · Score: 1

      She only has some popularity because the mind-numbed basement dwelling dorks of the internet haven't gotten out enough to see what a hot chick looks like, so they think that some wrinkled, over-made-up, clearly face-lifted, over-40 dyed-blonde gitch is actually "hot" and somehow morphed that into "wow, she's smart". So she can string a few words together. Great.

      Wow. I've never had to defend my opinion of sexy before. I'm almost happy.

    6. Re:Samus? by Phyvo · · Score: 1

      "Stop trying to stick your head in the sand and pretend that people only judge based on your utopian ideals of intelligence and personality. That ain't how the world rotates." Wait... He provides himself as a counterexample to your stereotype of everybody, and your response is to say that he's stupid and that the majority of people don't think like him? The fact that you actually acknowledged that his opinion is at all possible (and that he isn't secretly like everyone else) disproves the idea that looks are all that people take into account. A study actually found that experianced female birds prefer "nice guys" over more "athletic" ones, while first-time females (who didn't know better) went with the "athletic" duds who were generally more dangerous. You people who think that whatever all the animals do is the best way to go have no excuse: Even the freakin' birds disagree with you.

  13. Two words... by supersocialist · · Score: 1

    Fester's Quest.

    1. Re:Two words... by despisethesun · · Score: 1

      Yes, and I'm sure that was the best-selling release on the NES, topping every "greatest games of all time" list ever put out. And I'm also sure it would have been made had Fester not already been a character in a once popular TV series.

      --
      This poo is cold.
  14. Power suits do not role models make by 75th+Trombone · · Score: 1

    If Samus's abilities make her worthy of feministic respect, surely this guy represents hope for the end of annelid disenfranchisement everywhere!

    --
    The United States of America: We do what we must because we can.
  15. The best thing about Samus by Norfair · · Score: 2, Interesting

    is that her femininity isn't shoved into your eyeballs every 5 seconds. It's not 'SAMUS IS A WOMAN, SAMUS IS A WOMAN', only at the end do we find she's a she. It's cooler that way because you can kind of forget you're playing as a woman and concentrate on the *game*, which is most important.

  16. Ghost Lion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The first RPG female lead I can think of is Maria from "Legend of the Ghost Lion" for NES

    http://nes.mobygames.com/game/legend-of-the-ghost- lion

  17. Buzzwords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Instead, she is a proactive force in a dynamic world; she does not react to her circumstances but instead interacts with them. She demonstrates a lesson not often taught to young girls, which is that working by yourself can be powerful, gratifying, even joyous.

    They missed a great chance to use the word "empowering" there. And no "paradigm"? Amateurs.

  18. Dammit... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Metroid can't be a girl. It's a freaking robot; it's not even human.

    Now you're going to tell me Mario and Luigi are really girls (explains why Mario never gets the girl), or that the Ikari Warriors twins are women, despite the fact that we've seen them topless?

    You won't hear any complaints from me about the Valkyrie on Gauntlet being female: we've all heard her voice, and we've seen her picture on the arcade box that shows a bit more than the 8bit rendering on the screen. You cannot make the same argument about this "Samus", a name that sounds suspicously male (or at least tomboy).

    I only played about $1.00 at a time, so I never even got any hints that the main character of Metroid was not a robot. Therefore, to me Metroid is a robot. Case closed.

    (* I'll start with the "lalalalalalala I can't hear you" argument if you try to claim there was a backstory printed on the arcade box. I didn't read backstories in when I was in elementary school, so they cannot be used as supporting evidence.)

    1. Re:Dammit... by Phyvo · · Score: 1

      Well, you probably didn't complete the game fast enough to have Samus take off her helmet or dress in a bikini. The fact is that many people (not all for sure) knew she was a girl since the first game came out. When you beat the game fast enough the secret was revealed. It's been that way ever since, though the secret isn't really secret anymore. Sorry, but just with the game's sprites you can see the truth. No need for a backstory.

  19. God Spare Me by cmotd · · Score: 0

    Ah of course, it's pixels that look like women that have been the cause of all their problems. I mean back before we had sexist games, and movies, and TV shows and radio programs women lived in a utopia where they frolicked hand in hand with gay compliant men dressed in floral printed smocks and floppy hats. No one ever exploited them or treated them badly back in the good 'ol days. It wasn't until the media came along that women's lives became a drudgery of washing dishes and sucking cock all day. Heck I've seen it happen myself. I watched an innocent young girl play Mario when he had to rescue princess whatsername, and before I knew it that poor little girl was begging to wash dishes and suck cock. Shocking.

  20. Why's there a girl.... by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

    Samus is cool, but the way she's played her Gender doesn't matter. She is a strong professional, but the games are designed is most of the time her gender is irreverent.

    I'll never forget that friend of mine who played Super Metroid unknowingly, up until he died and Samus' suit flying off death sequence appeared.

    "Why's there a girl in Samus' suit?!"

    Classic.

    Samus' gender has sweet FA to do with how good or bad a game Metroid is, and whether or not female gamers will like it. Female gamers, like males, will play and like good games. The industry still hasn't realised this.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
  21. Ok, here's the problem as I see it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm going to ramble here, but here's the problem as I see it.

    Game developers are basically in a no-win situation. From one side of the issue, they get "That female character was just a guy in a female mesh, she should have been more feminine!", when they create a strong capable female character who doesn't have to rely on anybody else. From the other side of the issue, they get "She's yet another female stereotype, give us a character who isn't so weak!". Now they're getting props for making a character that doesn't *have* a gender aspect until after you beat the game, and making said character female?!

    Seriously, throw us a bone and give us something substantial to work with. What do female gamers actually want? We can't use classic female stereotypes to form the basis of a character, and we can't make a character who isn't immediately identifiable as being female.

    The same people who complain about women 'having basketballs strapped to their chests', wave off the equivalent male physical stereotype of a massive barbarian in a loin cloth with biceps as big around as my car, and at the same time dig for any stereotype they can find to write off a 'strong female character' as not being good enough.

    Seriously, Lara Croft is both held as a shining example of a strong female character, and looked down upon as yet another set of tits to be ogled by men. But she's really no different than Samus. Both games would be exactly the same if you simply swapped the gender of the character, because there's not really any character development going on.

  22. You don't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I do believe you rely too much on strawmen. Show me examples of the former case, where people complain of lack of femininity on the parts of characters such as Samus.

    The "massive barbarian" stereotype isn't a sexualized image for girls (and one-in-ten boys) to oggle at, but a projection of strength. The message being sent here is not "OMGLOOKATMYPECS", but "Look! I'm ultra-tough and can crush your skull with my finger!" There is just no comparison. You might have a point with the "bishounen" image (c.f. Gackt), but that is largely a result of Japanese cultural norms, and no less objectified than their scantily-clad female counterparts.

    "What to women gamers want?" Why don't you ask the multitudes of women on this thread? Oh wait...