Slashback: IP Protection, ReligiousDocument, LiPS Savings

Slashback tonight with updates and clarifications on recent Slashdot stories, including some more fuel for the Sony fire, a closer look at the Intellectual Property Protection Act, ministers jumping on the OpenDocument bandwagon, another spammer gets his due, founding members of the new LiPS board speak out and more - read on for details.

Sony leading a price-fixing cartel? Sheridan writes "Hot on the heels of the SonyBMG XCP rootkit fiasco The Times is reporting that Sony may have been charging online retailers up to 15% more for its products than high street outlets in an attempt to block online bargains from forcing prices down. Perhaps they're trying to recoup some of their losses on the rootkitted CDs, although somebody ought to let them know that most of their loss was to their reputation, which this certainly won't help."

Deconstructing the IP protection act. Brent writes "Ars Technica takes a more in-depth look at the Intellectual Property Protection Act of 2005 and shows that some of the original fears of the Act were overstated. The article states that the act is primarily concerned with criminal acts of infringement, namely infringement done for commercial gain or competitive advantage, and not with criminalizing the mere attempt at commonplace infringement. In short, the act is aimed at commercial piracy. The article also ends with an reasonable challenge to the US government, including the call for a referendum on consumer rights and the penalization of the use of any digital rights technology that impedes fair use."

Even the clergy are jumping into the OpenDocument fray. da6d writes "The LXer has an article about clergy joining the fray surrounding Microsoft's refusal to support OpenDocument. From the article: '[they] see Microsoft's stance as intentionally withholding support so that it can turn a technical business decision into a political fight. By refusing to support OpenDocument, Microsoft is ignoring the cross-platform document sharing needs of visually impaired users, not only in Massachusetts, but also in the other 49 states, not to mention the rest of the world. The economically disadvantaged will also suffer from the lack of Opendocument support in Microsoft Office.'"

UK spammer gets his due. delete writes "Notorious UK internet spammer Peter Francis-Macrae, who referred to himself as "weaselboy", has been convicted of fraud. The 23-year-old earned more than £1.5 million through his activities, primarily through spam mails offering the registration of unavailable domain names. Up to £425,000 of his earnings remain unrecovered."

Linux to make smartphones and high end communication devices cheaper. nitinah writes "In an interview with Phonemag, the founders of LiPS comment that mainstream adoption of Linux would make smartphone and high end communication devices more affordable than ever before. Founding members John Ostrem, lead scientist of PalmSource and Michel Gien, EVP of Jaluna also commented that Linux would also extend the economics to not just phones but applications and services."

Comments

OpenDocument

[JoeShmoe950]

I'm in massachussets, and I'm glad massachussets is attempting to make the move. What I wonder is, with the major fight surrounding it, why is there just about 0 press? My history teacher, who knows about just about any current event in massachussets hasn't even heard of it. Why is no information getting to the unnerds?

Re:OpenDocument

[geekoid]

Becasue it's not interesting to most people? Seriously.

Yuo need to explain it to them, as well as your nerd bussies. When explaining what it is start with "It's a way to save the taxpayers a bunch of money"

Re:OpenDocument

[Stevyn]

Because the unnerds don't care. Paris Hilton's phone is stolen?? Now that's news. Face it, they don't care and the media doesn't want to waste the time trying when fantasy land entertainment figures are easy to track and report on every time they crap.

Re:OpenDocument

[Niten]

I don't live in Massachusetts, but I'd guess the lack of press has a lot to do with the general public's tenuous grasp on the concept of file formats, let alone the idea of why any one format should be considered 'better' than another. Until the people's knowledge of such technical issues improves (I have faith that it must, eventually), I'm afraid that issues like this, however important they really are, will never achieve much attention in the mainstream press.

Re:OpenDocument

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in massachussets [...] massachussets [...] massachussets

If you live there then you should learn to spell "Massachusetts" correctly.

Re:OpenDocument

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's a way to save the taxpayers a bunch of money"

"...By switching to GEICO?"

Re:OpenDocument

[SandiConoverJones]

Really, how long do you expect it to take for technical news to hit non techies? Now, right on the news, with the weather report, is the mention of a new virus, worm, phishing scam, or whatever. Most of which a /. reader has known about the vulnerability far longer than reality TV watching morons.

The media is run by English majors who brag to each other who understands math/science less than the others! Don't expect an English major to understand tech stuff. You wouldn't, perhaps, remember proper gerund useage, would you?

Re:OpenDocument

[violent.ed]

because the education of the uneducated is not a goal of mainstream media. They go all out for shock&awe, but when it comes down to something as technical as document format support, its ho-hum. Heck, its damn near no-hum. If the media covers a story that 25% of the viewing audience (as big or little as that may be depending on said media outlet/company) finds boring or too technical for their own comfort, they will switch channels from WSFA local news to FoxNews/CNN to get the real juicy stuff that their independantly controlled (heh, yeah, like they own a tinfoil hat or sumthin) minds clamour for.

Re:OpenDocument

[saskboy]

Just tell them:

"Remember how when you tried to move your assignment from my computer to your computer and it didn't work because I don't have Word?"

-"Yeah?"

"Well, OpenDocument means it would have worked."

-"Oh. Cool."

Re:OpenDocument

[SydShamino]

Massachussets has issued hundreds of press releases about their change.

Unfortunately, they were all in OpenDocument format and no one using Office can read them.

Re:OpenDocument

[Trailwalker]

You wouldn't, perhaps, remember proper gerund useage, would you?

$deity willing, I'd rather use the Ablative Absolute.

Re:OpenDocument

[SquadBoy]

"Every gerund, without exception, ends in -ing. Gerunds are not, however, all that easy to pick out. The problem is that all present participles also end in -ing. What is the difference?

Gerunds function as nouns. Thus, gerunds will be subjects, subject complements, direct objects, indirect objects, and objects of prepositions. Present participles, on the other hand, complete progressive verbs or act as modifiers."

Re:OpenDocument

[Anonymous Coward]

What part of Massachusetts? In and around Saugus it's pretty well known. Of course, Saugus switched years ago...

• Official announcment
• Saugus Blog entry
• Start of a thread about it on the Saugus Forums

Re:OpenDocument

[Anonymous Coward]

a) the media are run by Journalism and Business majors, not English majors.
b) most college-educated people I know would never *brag* about a paucity of knowledge in science or techincal fields. Please don't confuse the non-hard-science-yet-still-educated people with the unwashed masses who still think that it's "cool" to be ignorant.

Re:OpenDocument

[RedNovember]

You wouldn't, perhaps, remember proper gerund useage, would you?

You wouldn't, perhaps, remember the proper spelling of usage, would you?

Re:OpenDocument

[Anonymous Coward]

You called?

Re:OpenDocument

[Feneric]

There's a fair amount written locally about it in Saugus. You can read the public announcement, see it discussed on the Saugus forums (in regards to the Teaching American History Grant Project) or even see the blog entry I posted about it on the Saugus blog. If you go digging through Saugus.net's search facility I'm sure you'll find more info about it in Saugus, too.

Re:OpenDocument

[iabervon]

Does your history teacher read the Globe? There were articles on the 25th (about Galvin opposing the decision), 29th (about Senator Pacheco's opposition), and 1st (about Quinn accepting responsibility for not getting buy-in from the disabled). Before that, there were presumably articles about the initial decision and Romney's support for it, but the search thing isn't going that far back. Even ignoring the actual issue entirely, I'm be surprised if a well-informed local wouldn't have noticed the fight over jurisdiction between the executive and legislative branches, or the posturing of the two most likely candidates for Governor next time.

Re:OpenDocument

[SandiConoverJones]

Sorry, my sister, an experienced professional editor, frequently spoke of newsroom personnel bragging about how bad their math skills were, and who understood science less than whom. I figured that someone from a newsroom might have an insight into what the journalism field is like more than the average /. reader. My other writing friends echo the same sentiments.

Re:OpenDocument

[AKAImBatman]

I don't live in Massachusetts, but I'd guess the lack of press has a lot to do with the general public's tenuous grasp on the concept of file formats, let alone the idea of why any one format should be considered 'better' than another.

That's probably part of it. But part of it also is that this fight is happening mostly online. All the news sources carrying are online, and all the arguments are presented online. Heck, the story listed was RFCed on the Linux4Christians mailing list prior to publishing.

Journalists are getting better at watching the Internet for stories, but they've still got a long way to go. They're ignoring far too many major events that the Internet is buzzing with.

Re:OpenDocument

[Anonymous Coward]

In practice, that would barely ever work because many people, particularly students, would recommend that you pirate MS Word instead.

Re:OpenDocument

[Anonymous Coward]

It is generally considered polite to link to the site when you're quoting so that readers can follow up on topics, and so that they can be sure the quoted material is not being taken out of context.

Re:OpenDocument

[jroysdon]

I don't argue that non-techies will learn about this soon enough. However, Donald Parris is hardly a non-techie. He wrote Pengiun in the Pew, a pro-Linux book for churches.

The book has a Creative Commons license (Attribution-NoDerivs 2.0), and I've a copy linked on my GPL Programs page.

Re:OpenDocument

[suitepotato]

RTF, Rich Text File, MS and Linux apps can easily save to this, 99.9% of users are on Windows anyways or on MacOSX which can access most MS app files easily given MS support for the platform, next problem. MA residents aren't be shortchanged in any way, shape, or form by using MS apps.

They're being short changed by idiotic attempts to go away from them towards a software world ruled by masochistic morons, anti-useability clowns, and the true anarchistic scuttlers of real meaningful standards. Standards which don't seem to exist in the world of Linux, BSD, or anywhere else on the open source side of the fence because every other person in it is a veritable Donald Trump of ego who know what is best for the world of computer users. Meanwhile the users ignore them and continue to willfully purchase Windows and Office.

The problem isn't Microsoft embracing open standards, it's that the open standards being proposed are like the idiocy of the UN running the Internet: done for imposing power by one group on another for purely inane reasons of ego. The open standards and open source people in general want to humble MS. MS Office has no useability issues. OS office software does.

For instance, GnuCash bites compared to Money and even Quicken no argument (I've used both, only Money worked as needed every time). MS Word is well integrated to the whole of Windows which is the majority desktop out there and not one OS app ported to Windows even seems to take a portion of the time that long-time Windows closed source shareware/freeware writers do to make the integration seamless and the experience good.

It's not about the users. If it was, the Linux and other OS os/app people would actually try to honestly grok why the end users consistantly choose Microsoft Windows over Linux and BSD and so forth. It's about sticking it to Microsoft, it's about FUD about Microsoft, and paranoia about Microsoft. I don't expect too many on /. to grasp any of this, but it's true. OPEN is not some magic word and those who wield it are frequently like the political correctness wonks on campus who whine about free speech but only as long as it is theirs: "the users" only matter as long as it is their hated enemy Microsoft that is getting the buys. When it comes to the users using open source code, then screw em cause you get what you pay for and it was free, so stop complaining and rewrite it yourself is the attitude.

Re:OpenDocument

[pingveno]

I just accidently sent an .odt file to a friend instead of a Microsoft Word document. His reaction was "What the heck is an odt file?" Hardly "Oh. Cool."

Re:OpenDocument

[saskboy]

The point is, in 5 years, instead of the result you got by accident, more often than not a .odt will work either because everything will save to .odt by default, or the program will at least understand it.

As it is, even Word isn't compatible with Word. If you try to open a Word 97 file on Word 95, it won't work. If you save to .rtf in Word, it might not look the same when you open it and save it again in Open Office.

We need one standard, and it's going to be open. It's too bad that Microsoft will have to be burned over the same barrel their closed system has burned people on for over a decade now.

Re:OpenDocument

[saskboy]

"would recommend that you pirate MS Word instead."

Nearly all students have access to broadband now, and could download and take a copy of OpenOffice.org 2 home to their computers. No more piracy, and you can read the prof's power point shows, and send him Word files if they demand an assignment be emailed. No more MS piracy monkey on your back to worry about. Open Office 2 has improved a lot over Star Office from 4 years ago.

The ones who recommend piracy when a 99% compatible and legal alternative exists, probably don't realize that OpenOffice is free and almost the same as MS Office.

Re:OpenDocument

[cammoblammo]

MS Office has no useability issues

You might be right about this being an ego driven war, but let's face it, Winston Churchill was driven by ego as well as a desire to save Britain. Egotists can be right. And nobody wants to lose.

But there is one serious useability issue that seems to be at the heart of the whole debate--MS-Office doesn't support ODF. If they did, there would be no argument from anyone, and Massachusets would probably use MS quite happily.

So the question is, whose ego's causing the problem?

Re:OpenDocument

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking too right I would.

Re:OpenDocument

[Anonymous Coward]

I always thought a gerund was that stuff that leaked out when you blew up a flux capacitor....

Re:OpenDocument

[bleaknik]

Cogito, ergo sig.

René Descartes' classic saying is only loosely translated as "I think, therefore I am". In the context he used it, it most like was intended as "I doubt, therefore I am"...

Yes, I have way to much free time. Yes, this is offtopic. Yes, I need a complete cycle of regeneration before I can provide any useful insight.

Re:OpenDocument

[langelgjm]

In the Latin I've read, the ablative absolute isn't able to be used as a replacement for the gerund.

Re:OpenDocument

[fossa]

"Remember how when you tried to move your assignment from my computer to your computer and it didn't work because I don't have Word?"

-"Yeah, 'cause you're a weirdo and use a normal computer"

At least, that's how it's always gone for me... *sigh*

Re:OpenDocument

[fossa]

Er, I mean don't use a normal computer...

Re:OpenDocument

[LarsWestergren]

The media is run by English majors who brag to each other who understands math/science less than the others! Don't expect an English major to understand tech stuff.

I have met a LOT of bright English majors. Many of them, being intellectuals in general, are above the average citizen when it comes to knowledge of science and technology. Not once have I met any person boasting about being ignorant. Your comment is such a fucking troll, and this "us vs them" liberal arts bashing on Slashdot gets more and more tiring every day.

Re:OpenDocument

[advocate_one]

The Sony CD rootkit business has just made it into my daily paper... but right back on page 18 with a mere 5 column inches... The tagline is "Recall for millions of Virus CDs"... and the first para reads "Sony has been forced to recall millions of CDs after it emerged they can wreck home computers".

Re:OpenDocument

[werewolf1031]

Yeah, that works great in theory. In practice, most people -- yes, even college students (at least most of the ones I know personally) -- would much rather have a "fully functional" (and yeah, if necessary, pirated) copy of MS Office, a "mainstream" program suite, rather than go with "some unknown 3rd-party software", no matter how good it is. Most of them aren't nerds. A frightening proportion can't even be described realistically as "computer literate", except the ability to use Kazaa (whole other rant, I won't go there cuz it'd be even further off-topic).

Your arguments are sound IF you're talking to someone who knows what you're talking about. For the rest of society, it's a head-scratcher... and as such, they'll just go with the default (MS) instead of trying something new in the chance that "it might break compatability" (even though it most likely won't) and "I've never heard of it and neither have my friends so it can't be that great", etc. Insert whatever other arguments you can think of here, but the bottom line is most of the sheep won't go for it, simply because it's not from Big Huge Corporation(tm) which they think they can trust... for no other reason than because it's BHC(tm), a supposedly known quantity to them.

I'm not saying I'd recommend pirating MSW over OO, just sayin' that most "non-techies" won't go for an "unknown" alternative... unknown to THEM of course.

Re:OpenDocument

[aug24]

OpenOffice is free and almost the same as MS Office

In many ways it's better. Bullet numbering works better, tables are more intuitive, and there's no bastard fucking paperclip!

J.

Re:OpenDocument

[aug24]

You wouldn't, perhaps, remember proper gerund useage, would you?

So if I tell them it's a row about the storing of data, that'll help?

And for my next trick, the gerundive:

They may tell me to take a running jump!

<rimshot>

Justin.

Re:OpenDocument

[cduffy]

They're being short changed by idiotic attempts to go away from [Microsoft]

Bullshit. Nobody in Massachusets wants to get away from Microsoft. Peter Quinn isn't against using Microsoft software. Much to the contrary, he's in faver of using ODF. Only thing is that Microsoft refuses to support ODF. If they do, and the Massachusets CIO's office still tells them to piss off, it makes Peter Quinn a hypocrite -- and he and his office are having enough trouble keeping power as it is.

So all Microsoft needs to do right now is support a sufficiently open document format (and ODF has already been selected as onesuch), and then they still have the business of the executive branch of the state of Massachusets. It's not all that hard, given the number of 3rd-party formats they'll already interoperate with. Heck, they could even open up the licensing on MSXML, and that would work too -- except that Microsoft refuses to do either of those things.

It's not about the users. If it was, the Linux and other OS os/app people would actually try to honestly grok why the end users consistantly choose Microsoft Windows over Linux and BSD and so forth. It's about sticking it to Microsoft, it's about FUD about Microsoft, and paranoia about Microsoft. I don't expect too many on /. to grasp any of this, but it's true. OPEN is not some magic word and those who wield it are frequently like the political correctness wonks on campus who whine about free speech but only as long as it is theirs: "the users" only matter as long as it is their hated enemy Microsoft that is getting the buys.

Perhaps that's the case with most of the OSS types you find on campus. It's a rather different matter with the folks who are doing OSS work commercially. You know, for pay? With managers?

I'm one of those people -- though it's not my full-time job anymore, I still do paid OSS work (primarily bugfixes, adding features we need, doing custom integration and the like) for my full-time employer very frequently (and no, we're not an "open source company", though my last employer -- still in business -- is).

You look at the usability work being done today, and it's mostly being funded by someone. Novell, IBM, Red Hat, Sun (they use GNOME for their desktop)... someone. But the point is that it does get funded, and once someone does it, everyone benefits.

Re:OpenDocument

[Tim C]

Given that the majority of them see absolutely nothing wrong in copyright infringement, the choice comes down to "free and 99% compatible" or "free and 100% compatible". In fact, what it really comes down to for them is "free but not the real thing so probably not as good - yeah, in fact, it can't be as good" and "free and the real thing".

Most of them probably don't realise that OpenOffice exists. Those that do almost certainly just don't care.

Re:OpenDocument

[Anonymous Coward]

This would be a good recommendation, and I must mention I do recommend the same, but it works only in theory. Just yesterday a friend needed some course material that was in powerpoint format. Openoffice refused to open it because the lecturer, due to increasing plagiarsm, had protected the document with password. So, in the end, she had no choise but to either travel back to the university town to open it on a school computer or download a pirate version of ms office.

Re:OpenDocument

[Haeleth]

Hello. While in my country we use the phrase "English major" to refer to officers of a particular rank and nationality in the British Army, I did read English at university, which I assume is the sense in which you were using the word.

You will observe that I'm also a techie. The two are not mutually exclusive, whatever you may like to think.

Re:OpenDocument

[SandiConoverJones]

Hmm, Journalism Major, just looked it up at a nearby college, Miami University of Ohio, hmm, Journalism, part of the English department. Hmm, I reiterate English Majors! http://www.units.muohio.edu/english/People/Faculty /journalism.html Note the top of the page.
Department of English
Faculty
Journalism

This would go to indicate that Journalism is a subset of English majors, would it not?

Re:fp

[gg3po]

Well, at least you had the balls to not do it anonymously. You must have karma to burn :-)

Re:fp

[slavemowgli]

You must be so proud.

Really?

[Trogre]

The economically disadvantaged will also suffer from the lack of Opendocument support in Microsoft Office.

How would the economically disadvantaged suffer? They'll just use OpenOffice instead. 100% OD support, and zero cost.

Unless they're already pirating MS Office and hopelessly locked in.

Re:Really?

[Soko]

You forget these people may need to send or receive documents from the well-to-do people that are using Microsoft Office already. Communication is supposed to be a two-way street, after all.

Soko

Re:Really?

[DaveCar]

Because if MS don't support it and the accessability lobby prevent uptake of ODF then MS will still be in use and Mass. citizens will have to get Windows/Office?

Re:Really?

[violent.ed]

The economically disadvantaged will suffer due to the fact that an OO document wont open in the MSWord processor that their boss/future employer uses to look at resume's. thats just one example.

The rich ppl might not care to try to use a "free" software for compatibility, they pay for their own MS Office, and dont care. if the poor bastard that cant afford mS office cant write a resume that i can open in my native word processing program, i will skip over that application for someone else who's mommy can afford (or at least whos brother knows how to pirate) MS Office.

Re:Really?

[JulesLt]

You're absolutely correct on the second point.

Most 'economically disavantaged' PC owners I know (and a few who aren't) just run pirated versions of Office (if not their whole Windows system).

They don't get the argument for free as in speech, only the free as in beer one, which ironically means that only the success of strong anti-piracy technologies will drive them to look at an alternative - OR for another format to emerge and take over - and PDF has made significant in-roads into the territory Office occupies as far as read-only documents go - I can't recall the last time a website made me download a Word file - although Powerpoint is still going strong.

Like the original imposition of Office on the rest of us, it will probably take Big Business and government to drive any change - they're the only people who can see a real massive cost-saving in doing so. For small businesses and individuals, the cost of change almost always outweighs the cost of sticking with what you know.

Re:Really?

[pla]

You forget these people may need to send or receive documents from the well-to-do people that are using Microsoft Office already. Communication is supposed to be a two-way street, after all.

The "economically disadvantaged" don't blow $300 to $600 on buying Office, Acrobat, Photoshop, and whatever other crap they need to view "standard" formats.

They either run Free Software, or they pirate the real thing.

When you can choose between food for the next two months, and Excel - Well, one of those wins without even a second though. And that winner doesn't start with "M" and end with "T".

Or, just in case you have no frame of reference for this - Think back to college, to eating nothing but ramen (or worse, the school's "Food" Services chow) between visits to the family. If you came across a $10 bill - Would you put it away towards your student copy of MathCad... Or buy a pizza?

Re:Really?

[Geoffreyerffoeg]

The economically disadvantaged will also suffer from the lack of Opendocument support in Microsoft Office.

How would the economically disadvantaged suffer? They'll just use OpenOffice instead. 100% OD support, and zero cost.

Well, yeah, that's what they're supposed to do. And then how do they send it to an organization (e.g., a company they're applying to) that has standardized on MS Word? Or once they get that job, how do they get access to those documents at home?

Yes, OOo has MS .DOC support which works amazingly well, but it's still a reverse-engineered hack. It'd be better to have an open, standard document format that works as the native format of both Word and OOo. You can't guarantee that a given .DOC file will work equally well in Word and OOo. If Word complies to OD, though, you can make that guarantee.

Re:Really?

[Trogre]

You can't guarantee that a given .DOC file will work equally well in Word and OOo. If Word complies to OD, though, you can make that guarantee.

The same way Word compiles to RTF? :)

Re:Really?

[dubbreak]

I don't think that is a realistic situation. Does anyone send a resume in .doc format? If they do they are stupid since you have no idea if the person receiving it will be able to open it. Even if the potential employer has Word and you have Word it's not guaraanteed to look correct or even open (ie you have Office 2003 and they are still running 97 to save costs).

I send "important" documents in pdf if formatting is important (ie where plaintext or rtf won't do) and from the amount of pdf's I receive I assumed most people do that. On a rare occasion I could be required to fill out an excell sheet or the likes but I haven't had a complaint yet using OO to do so (the web software for that company seems to be picky about any browser other than IE however :P).

Re:Really?

[jc42]

You can't guarantee that a given .DOC file will work equally well in Word and OOo.

Hell, you can't even guarantee that a given .DOC will work equally well (or at all) in a recipient's version of Word.

I recently worked with a company whose big compatibility problem was persuading all their people to upgrade their W95 machines to W98. They also had lots of fun trying to figure out how to handle Word docs sent from a 21st-century version of Windows.

They really didn't know what to make of our linux and Mac laptops ...

Re:Really?

[EvanED]

Does anyone send a resume in .doc format?

I *must* submit one to one place in DOC.

Had to completely recreate it too...

Re:Really?

[StikyPad]

The economically disadvantaged will suffer due to the fact that an OO document wont open in the MSWord processor that their boss/future employer uses to look at resume's. thats just one example.

OpenOffice can save in Word .doc format. Then their boss can open it. (Because lots of economically disadvantaged people have their own computers in the first place, and their boss requires them to submit TPS reports...?!?).

Re:Really?

[hublan]

When you can choose between food for the next two months, and Excel - Well, one of those wins without even a second though. And that winner doesn't start with "M" and end with "T".

Wah? No meat on their table then?

Re:Really?

[Jasin Natael]

My wife, currently looking for work, was required to submit her resume in Word format to about half of the employers she's interviewed with. Monster.com won't accept PDF or any other resume types except for pasted text. There is a lot of very focused discrimination working in favor of MS Office. It was a pain, too.

Her resume was on a super-professional looking HTML/CSS template that I designed for my own resume, so we had HTML and PDF versions. It renders properly in every CSS-capable browser I've tried it with, and even on my cellphone's browser, but Word (surprise!) couldn't import the document without mangling it. We ended up re-doing the document from scratch on Word for OS X (which has decent stylesheet support, unlike the Windows versions) and battling with the tables.

Your point about Word not working with anything is more than valid. It can't import HTML, RTF, or just about any other format properly, so why are we surprised when it can't read its own file format just right? But at the end of the day, Word 2000 reads Word 2000 files pretty well -- not perfectly, but none of the corporate users know to expect better from an office document format. Word XP has 'issues' reading Word 2000 files, and so on, ad infinitum. This is by design, and the poor end-users who either can't afford Office or can't keep up with the upgrade cycle, are being looked over for certain jobs.

Luckily for us, the choice to put the document in another format was for convenience and interoperability, not because we didn't have or couldn't use Word. Like (I think) most people on Slashdot, I'm not calling for an end to the Microsoft Office Hegemony. I just think that unless they can find a way to work with at least one feature-rich document format besides their own, I will have to join the cry for revolution.

--Jasin Natael

UK spammer gets his due

[oliverthered]

Well, it just goes to show we don't need many if any new laws with the word computer in them.

Re:UK spammer gets his due

[Anonymous Coward]

Longer version of what he actually did
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1822068, 00.html

Re:UK spammer gets his due

[1u3hr]

He didn't "get his due" for spamming. he wasn't even charged with any offences related to how he sent his messages, as far as I can see.

Francis-Macrae was found guilty of two counts of fraudulent trading, one of concealing criminal property, two of making threats to kill, one charge of threatening to destroy or damage property and one count of blackmail.

Seems a bit unfair

[Otter]

Microsoft Office supports the needs of blind users. The OpenDocument alternatives do not. Massachusetts bars government use of Office until it complies with OpenDocument. Microsoft, at the moment, is going to concede the market to the alternatives.

So how exactly does this become "Microsoft mean to blind users!" Shouldn't blame belong to a) Open Office and other suites that don't have adequate accessibility, b) the Massachusetts government for locking out MS Office without considering this issue and c) the people who advocated b)?

And as a Massachusetts tax payer (and quite hefty taxes, at that) it's not obvious to me why this is any of the business of a bunch of ministers in North Carolina.

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[Spy der Mann]

So how exactly does this become "Microsoft mean to blind users!"

Well, Microsoft has meant to blind its users for a LONG time... :P

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft Office supports the needs of blind users. The OpenDocument alternatives do not. Massachusetts bars government use of Office until it complies with OpenDocument. Microsoft, at the moment, is going to concede the market to the alternatives.

So how exactly does this become "Microsoft mean to blind users!" Shouldn't blame belong to a) Open Office and other suites that don't have adequate accessibility, b) the Massachusetts government for locking out MS Office without considering this issue and c) the people who advocated b)?

And as a Massachusetts tax payer (and quite hefty taxes, at that) it's not obvious to me why this is any of the business of a bunch of ministers in North Carolina.

a)Shame on OOo for not supporting the needs of blind people, but also shame on MS Office for locking out the economicly weak with its high price.
b) Microsoft is a member of the ODF (non active anyway) and could of supported the format if they wanted really quick. As far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong), Microsoft's own XML format has alot in common with ODF anyway. So, MS says 'I won't support it' and it's Mass' fault for "locking out MS"?
c) What people? The ones with the clue? I suggest you surrender your uid as you leave... :)

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[DaveCar]

Microsoft Office doesn't really support the needs of blind users. It is the screen reader companies that have spend lots of time writting custom code so Office works with their software. Who would have thought they would spend most time trying to get the monopoly office suite working?

If there were better (and I'm not a windows user/developer so I'm going on trust about such assertations) API hooks for accessibility (see the Peter Korn article) then they would be able to support _all_ suites adequately rather than having to spend all their time making MS Office work.

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem to be misinformed about exactly what this policy entails and when it is to take place. MS office will not be banned, but it cannot be used to generate new documents after January 2007 - That's more than a year from now. There are several projects already tackling the accessability issues for ODF. There are also several programs that will allow you to convert ODF to a MS compatible format should that be necessary. For more information, try reading these articles on groklaw for starters (the first one should address your issues quite adequately):

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=200510292 12458555
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=200511141 03034350
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=200510150 42041410

As a concerned citizen of Massachusetts myself, I find the position of locking all Mass citizens into the use of MS office to be quite unfair.

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[aukset]

It is my understanding that the majority of accessibility tools available are third party applications that only work with Microsoft Office. The limitations do not necessarily rest with the OpenDocument format or the available implementations of it.

One might conclude that the limitations are a symptom of Microsoft's stranglehold on office applications where accessibility tool developers have little incentive to develop their tools to interoperate. Given that OpenDocument is completely open and unencumbered, having the market-leader support ODF would create a huge incentive for those third party developers to build interoperable tools that work on any application that supports ODF. In other words, if Microsoft Office joins the rest of the industry in implementing ODF, all add-on tools and applications, including accessibility software, will have a single, standard avenue to co-operate with any office application. That would be the biggest win for accessibility issues.

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[Alien Being]

So how exactly does this become "Microsoft mean to blind users!"

MS is mean to all users.
Blind users are users.
MS is mean to blind users.

The simple business logic is that MS has an opportunity to gain and retain customers by supporting ODF. The not-so-simple logic is that if they support ODF, they will be undermining their practice of profiting from lock-in.

Mean is a lousy word. It's probably more accurate to say that MS's long-term marketing goals are in opposition to the needs of their customers. Either way, it's a sure sign of a broken company.

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[Anonymous Coward]

Peter Korn on Accessibility in ODF

This very interesting article (and reasoanbly brief) describes in detail the various issues involved in comparing accessibility of MS Office on MS Windows vs other solutions.

His general message seems to me to be that it is the third party vendors who have done the work that makes using MS Office + Windows what it is today.

Secondly, the Gnome desktop offers class-leading accessibilty and when used with OpenOffice 2.0 can match or exceed MS Office + Windows on almost every feature.

The two problems are:

1. When using MS Windows, a better experience will be obtained with MS Office rather than OpenOffice etc. This is because of the years of work third party vendors have put in to developing their accessibility products.

2. Currently there is not a good speech recognition system available for Linux.

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the ministers are from all over the U.S. One guy is from the U.K. Apparently, others are considering adding their names to the list.

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[Otter]

OK, good! I'm not taking a position on the regulation, just responding to the bizarre argument that Microsoft is wronging its blind users by being excluded and leaving them without an alternative. If the ODF options step up with accessibility, then the complaint of the "clergy" becomes irrelevant; otherwise it's idiotic.

As for the distinction between "banned for document creation" and "banned" and the availability of .doc-to-ODF converters, they seem pointless to me -- what about state employees who create documents and have accessibility needs?

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[Otter]

Ooookayyy, let me get this straight: Massachusetts adopts a regulation designed to exclude current versions of Microsoft Office, leaving blind users without a working alternative. This prompts criticism, not of the people who implemented it, not of the people and companies who lobbied for it, but of Microsoft, because they should have spent more time improving their competitors' products in order to allow their own to be more readily barred.

Wow, that's quite a theology these "clergy" have! Where do I sign up?

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[Anonymous Coward]

While the gp's point isn't well explained, he is right. Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly on all software. There are many products that microsoft doesn't compete with. Shouldn't the developers of these non-competing software packages be allowed to add accesibility support to their applications? Most software doesn't have the huge userbase of Office and can't attract the attention of the Accessibility tools vendors.

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[1u3hr]

let me get this straight: Massachusetts adopts a regulation designed to exclude current versions of Microsoft Office, leaving blind users without a working alternative.

MS was invited to support the format, they declined because it wouldn't allow the "rich user experience" of their proprietary format. And I don't think they were thinking of handicapped users somehow. Anyway, it would be trivial for MS ot support this format, and in fact they've paid someone to do so, but not "officially" and thus supported by them, they prefer it to be buggy and fucked up to discredit the format. Aside from that, third parties could easily make plugins and certainly will long before this goes live.

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[cduffy]

Massachusetts adopts a regulation designed to exclude current versions of Microsoft Office

More accurately: Massachusets adopts a regulation designed to ensure that the state's documents will be accessible in perpetuity and permit competition amongst multiple vendors for their office-suite-related business.

Microsoft had two options to avoid being excluded by this policy: Either permit their own XML-based document format to be freely enough licensed to meet the state's requirements, or support a document format that is freely enough licensed to meet the state's requirements.

Let me say that again: Microsoft needed to do no development work whatsoever to meet the state's requirements; they simply needed to make the MSXML license sublicensable (or do development work and support ODF). They have declined to do either.

leaving blind users without a working alternative

First, the Massachusets policy permits disabled users to use whatever software they need, even if this would otherwise be in conflict with their policy.

Second, there will be freely available 3rd-party filters to allow Office to read and write ODF documents before 2005 is out, so the policy doesn't really prohibit use of MS Office -- so long as it's used in conjunction with onesuch filter.

Third, there are multiple companies on crash courses to finish accessibility work on competing ODF-aware tools long before the policy goes into effect.

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[Anonymous Coward]

let me get this straight:

It would be nice if there was any evidence that that's what you were trying to do. As it is, it looks more like you're trying to wilfully misunderstand the state of affairs. But maybe you really have managed to completely miss the point, in which case I apologise for reading your post as a troll.

Massachusetts adopts a regulation designed to exclude current versions of Microsoft Office, leaving blind users without a working alternative.

No, Massachussetts adopts a regulation which happens as a side-effect to have that effect.

Note that the same effect would have come about if they had adopted Microsoft's XML format instead of ODF, since Microsoft's new XML format is also not supported in current versions of Microsoft Office (at least, I don't know of any support for it).

This prompts criticism, not of the people who implemented it, not of the people and companies who lobbied for it, but of Microsoft,

Correct. This is because the policy itself is generally well thought-out and has been designed for a specific and useful purpose, and the accessibility problems that result are partly Microsoft's fault.

because they should have spent more time improving their competitors' products in order to allow their own to be more readily barred.

No: Microsoft are being criticised because they should have spent more time improving their own Microsoft Windows product in order to make it more suitable for use by people with disabilities.

Currently, there is no adequate centralised accessibility API in Microsoft Windows. The existing solutions used by people with disabilities have been written by third parties, who have expended significant amounts of time, money, and effort in supporting Microsoft Office themselves: Microsoft has, of course, helped them, but Microsoft has not done so by improving Windows to make it easier for all developers to write applications that can easily be used by people with disabilities.

Let me run that past you again. Currently, if I am a programmer developing software for Windows, there is no simple way for me to make that software accessible. I have to persuade the third parties who provide accessibility solutions (to make up for Microsoft's failure to build accessibility into Windows) to support my program.

In this scenario, I am not a competitor to Microsoft: I am an ally, investing in their Windows platform to add value to Microsoft's product range. It is not unreasonable to expect Microsoft to improve Windows so that developers targeting the platform have an easier time writing accessible software. Nobody in their right mind could possibly think it unreasonable.

And, as the other posters have noted, the Mass. policy is not aimed at excluding Microsoft. All Microsoft have to do is support an open standard, either by implementing ODF as an option in Office, or by modifying the licensing terms on their own native XML format so that it meets the Mass. requirements.

That's right - all they have to do is change one or two lines of legalese, and this whole problem disappears!

I think it's reasonable to criticise Microsoft.

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[Haeleth]

As for the distinction between "banned for document creation" and "banned" and the availability of .doc-to-ODF converters, they seem pointless to me -- what about state employees who create documents and have accessibility needs?

Amazingly enough, the policy explicitly addresses this question. The answer is that their accessibility needs are prioritized over all other considerations: if MS Office is the software package that is most suitable for a state employee with disabilities, then that state employee continues to use MS Office, period.

The distinction between "banned for document creation" and "banned" is critical here. Since it is the former, and not the latter, then anyone who wants to use MS Office is welcome to do so, provided they release the documents they create in the ODF format. Hence, the existence of Office-to-ODF convertors would also be critical, since it permits this kind of use.

Nobody is going to get screwed. Nobody is going to be forced to use software that is not accessible to them. And anybody who prefers MS Office + conversion over a native ODF-supporting suite will be able to request that they be permitted to use that combination. What's the problem? Honestly, what on earth is wrong with this scenario?

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[Sketch]

> I'm not taking a position on the regulation, just responding to the bizarre argument that Microsoft is wronging its blind users by being excluded and leaving them without an alternative.

Microsoft isn't wronging it's blind users, it's wronging all of it's users by trying to lock them into it's proprietary software with it's monopoly position in the office software market.

Re:Seems a bit unfair

[m50d]

Microsoft, at the moment, is going to concede the market to the alternatives. So how exactly does this become "Microsoft mean to blind users!"

Because it's more like "Microsoft, at the moment, is going to refuse to support ODT in the hope of getting Massachusetts to back down". Blind users need an office program with ODT support and accessibility. MS could make them one very easily. But they aren't, and for political rather than technical reasons.

Strange...

[TedTschopp]

As a Christian, I see more need to have an opinion on Intelligent Design than on a document standard from a company. One is a discussion on the reality of the world, the other is a stance on the choice of a company to provide a service. Christians should be more concerned about reality and than on the document standard stance of a company.

Then again I belive the above statements should also hold ture if you replace company with government or political party and document standard with morality.

Re:Strange...

[hunterx11]

One is a discussion on the reality of the world

I'm pretty sure that's not Intelligent Design you're thinking of there, bud.

Re:Strange...

[Yaa 101]

Who's reality?

Re:Strange...

[Anonymous Coward]

Who's reality?
I am.

Re:Strange...

[Swamii]

I would venture a guess that God doesn't care too much about the opinions of men, even if it's a half-hearted acknowledgement of God, which Intelligent Design appears to be.

I'm not here to stomp on your views on ID, whatever your views on it. This is just my 2 cents, but forcing people who don't believe in God to make some sort of acknowledgement of God in a classroom isn't a good idea, wouldn't you agree? I can't imagine secularists teaching ID favorably; in fact, I'd rather they not even teach it. Instead, I say let children be taught whatever science believes at the time, with the disclaimer of, "Hey, this is our best guess as to how this happened."

Getting back on your subject, I think God cares less about forcing school teachers to talk about ID, and more about we (parents) teaching our kids our faith and values, showing them how to act by living godly lives ourselves. I can't imagine Jesus being up in arms over forcing schoolteachers to teach ID alongside evolution, honestly, I really can't imagine Christ doing that.

Re:Strange...

[geekoid]

""Hey, this is our best guess as to how this happened.""

you relize the scientific term 'theory' has exactly nothing to do with guessing?
A theory happens when a hypothosis on an observed event is then used to predict an outcome?

Evolution has been proved out many, many times.

On a different note, American Christians are becomimg the luaghing stock of chritians through out the world. America is the only country where the Christians are unable to grasp the concept of theolistic evolution. Which is Not ID.

Re:Strange...

[Anonymous Coward]

Evolution has been proved out many, many times.

That's wrong - it's never been proven, it's just failed to be disproven many, many times. The distinction is important - Evolution may be the theory that best fits the knowledge we have, but it's still just a theory.

Re:Strange...

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. Evolution has not been proven, no matter how many times people say it has been. Check out www.reasons.org to see a group of scientists (yes, real scientists) that are trying to create a testable model for creation, that could challenge evolution's "only valid scientific theory" place.

Re:Strange...

[cagle_.25]

Very possibly. OTOH, American Christians grasp one point clearly: the scientific establishment has no more patience for theistic evolution than it does for ID or Creationism. So ... why bother trying to be respectable in their eyes?

Re:Strange...

[Nerull]

Scientific theories cannot be proven though, thats the definition. They can only be proven wrong. Until they are proven wrong, they are valid theories.

ID cannot be proven or disproven, thus it is not a scientific theory, but an opinion. An opinion that isn't even based on evidence.

Re:Strange...

[Anonymous Coward]

Creationism is not just a USA thing. It seems pretty dominant among my Christian friends in Australia, Brazil, South Korea, and Holland. Naturally, those are places with Charismatic & Evangelical movements that follow more or less the same ideologies as their counterparts in the USA.

Incidentally, Creationism is also gaining popularity in Islamic countries, especially Turkey and Pakistan. Its characteristic rhetorical fervor and theocratic absolutism fit great in those societies.

Re:Strange...

[s76fitz]

BEING an atheist

i do not believe in billgates
the tooth fairy
santa claus
jesuchristo
or the "holy spirit"

Re:Strange...

[Patrik_AKA_RedX]

How about the antibiotic-resistant germs? So either that's a strong indication of evolution at work or it proves that your god likes to kill people.

Re:Strange...

[1u3hr]

Who's reality?

Who's on first?

Re:Strange...

[Anonymous Coward]

You forget, that Christians are also interested in removing barriers that stand between their message and the people around them. Ensuring that all records stay open and accessible for all people is right up there with the printing press in terms of importance. The last thing we want is to have our documents at the mercy of some abandoned unknown format 50 years down the road. The folks running the Vatican Library would not be impressed.

Re:Strange...

[geeber]

As a Christian, I see more need to have an opinion on Intelligent Design than on a document standard from a company...

Then again I belive the above statements should also hold ture if you replace company with government or political party

I call shenanigans. Intelligent Design is ALL about playing politics and government and has little to do with reality.

Re:Strange...

[Makarakalax]

I'd hope that most Christians are intelligent enough to have an adverse opinion to something as fashionable and as groundless as Intelligent Design. But most Christians also seem like a bunch of sheep to me. I'm prepared to be proven wrong though.

Re:Strange...

[Swamii]

I'm not against evolution. In fact, for creationists, rapid mutation and speciation is an important point in the creationists' argument for a young earth. However, goo-to-you evolution, that is, evolution where new genetic information is introduced, causing the specie to evolve into a new specie that can no longer mate with its former species, has not been proved or even reproduced by humans attempting to synthetically induce cross-specie evolution.

I don't really care for your mocking. If only a single person knows the truth, that is still the truth, isn't it?

Of course, the real proponents of goo-to-you, abiological evolution (that is, evolution where life suddenly came from a non-living thing via a set of bizarre natural circumstances, as is being taught in school) are secularists that reject God. It's just one of those things where on the surface it's all about science, but behind the thin veil there is an acknowledged and purposeful rejection of God. This is evidenced by the fact that we have IDists claiming, "OK, we'll give you evolution. But God must've started life, or set the process into motion, or helped along the process at some point, since it is biologically impossible for life to come from nothing." And yet here the secular camp shows their true color, rejecting the notion that God has anything to do with, well, anything, because underneath it all, the secular camp really doesn't want to believe in God. That's what the whole argument comes down to, the age old humanity pitted against God. It's just a matter of choice between the sides, then taking all the superficial scientific arguments to use for justification of your rejection of God (or better yet, hope on the middle of the fence and call it theistic evolution, it'll ease your conscience).

Re:Strange...

[TedTschopp]

I guess you got my point then.

Re:Strange...

[Swamii]

Good article here on that subject.

Sony, OpenDocument, and Linux Telco

[queenb**ch]

Sony BMG - Well, they don't think much about ripping off artists, so why should they be concerned about ripping off consumers?

OpenDocument - Why would Microsoft support anything that threatens their monopoly? DUH!

Linux and Communication Devices - Astersik anyone? Your own PBX http://www.asterisk.org/

2 cents,

Queen B

Re:Sony, OpenDocument, and Linux Telco

[Anonymous Coward]

> Why would Microsoft support anything that threatens their monopoly?

Because not supporting it would threaten it even more. If governments starts migrating massively to the OpenDocument format, MSOffice will support it in a blink.

Re:Sony, OpenDocument, and Linux Telco

[Alef]

OpenDocument - Why would Microsoft support anything that threatens their monopoly?

Because not doing so makes their customers discontent and angry?

Re:Sony, OpenDocument, and Linux Telco

[Hurricane78]

> Because not doing so makes their customers discontent and angry?

So you want to tell me that they did NOT do this from the beginning of their existance until now...?? ;)

I just want to remember the all-so-famous BSoD and the senseless GUI letting millions of users wanting to throw their (innocent) pc out of the window...

Re:Sony, OpenDocument, and Linux Telco

[Alef]

Well, perhaps I should have said "more discontent and angry" instead... ;)

But the sad part is that most (non-tech savvy) people haven't really been angry with MS for all the BSoDs. Somehow, the general public seem to have adopted the notion that computers are "supposed" to work as badly as Windows has done over the years. Probably because Windows is all they have ever seen, in terms of operating systems.

Re:Sony, OpenDocument, and Linux Telco

[Hurricane78]

Yes. you're right. They blame it on the computer instead of the os, because they can't tell where teh border line between those two parts is. And that is - i guess - because they really never saw another os. (or it was that disguised to look similar to windows ["to make it easyer for newbies"] that they did not even realize it...)

More on Sony

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think anybody has posted this on Slashdot yet (excuse me if I'm wrong) but apparently Sony have decided to recall all of the XCP infected CDs and offer replacement copies. According to the article they will also make it easier to uninstall the XCP system

Sony?

[ZiakII]

I'm still waiting to see some legal action on Sony. Is it ok for them to disregard copyright rights, and yet they hate when I even make a valid back up of a CD? Any news on any pending legal charges against them for violating the LGPL, and there root kit issue?

What losses?

[eepok]

Can we seriously STOP calling non-materialized projected profits "LOSSES"? Sony hasn't lost a single dollar on their "rootkit fiasco." At the worst, they could be making less than they expected, but they're not losing any money that was already in their pockets. Their "lost profits" are based on their predictions of how their products would sell given certain predicted factors.

Yes, this "LOSSES" arguement easily fits into the piracy problem and how the MPAA has "LOST" so much money.

Stop! Just stop falling for their vocabulary changes.

Re:What losses?

[Red Flayer]

Well, lost potential revenues are one thing, LOSSES are another. And actually, it looks like the federal government redefined "loss" in re: fraud cases, here's the proposal (1998), see Appendix A: http://www.ussc.gov/publicat/Lossdefn.pdf (pdf)

The fact of the matter is, though, that the MPAA can use LOSS when discussing these 'ghost' revenues, unless they are on their financial statements and disclosures.

They can claim they "LOST" sales. They can claim they "LOST" revenues. They can even claim that they "LOST $XXX,XXX,XXX in revenues according totheir calculations. They cannot claim they realized a financial LOSS though, unless they did.

The problem is not how they use loss -- the problem is that many people don't understand the difference between financial loss and whatever mumbo-jumbo the **AA are spewing.

Although, semantically, it would be nice if those of us in the know fdid not refer to their phantom revenues as "LOSS" though, since it is a matter of public perception.

Re:What losses?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sony recalled the CDs with the problem. This costs money. Hence, "losses".

Re:What losses?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, defending those lawsuits is going to cost Sony money. Recalling the CDs and issuing replacements is going to cost them money.

So yeah, this is actually costing Sony money, besides the potentially unrealized profits.

Re:What losses?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you should educate yourself about business practices of the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. Businesses always project their earnings for an entire year, at least, since they rely heavily on investors to keep their money in the company, and dividends are directly related to profits. Sony is posting losses against its projected income, which will probably have an impact on what investors do. Whether Sony made rational predictions is another story, but they still have to post net gains or losses against their projections. The ability of a company to accurately predict its yearly profits are a good indicator of its internal stability and intelligence.

If you don't make predictions about future profits or losses, someone else will beat you in the economics game by being able to make accurate predictions.

Re:What losses?

[JBlaze03]

Actually Sony has decided to recall all of the CD with the rootkit on it and off a removal tool to get rid of the DRM software. So yes it is losses. They spent money to produce CD's that are now coasters. They have to pay to ship them all back and replace the ones purchased by customers. http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,69590, 00.html?tw=wn_tophead_9

Re:What losses?

[Sheridan]

So, Sony's losses in having to recall and replace something like 5 million CDs (at least) by anywhere between 20 and 50+ artists any aren't real losses? That won't cost SonyBMG real money?

The reference above to "losses" (at least the one I wrote in the article submission, assuming that's the one you refer to) was to these, absolutely real, monetary losses.

I couldn't agree more that the so-called losses owing to "piracy" (incidentally, isn't this also "falling for their vocabulary changes" - surely you meant "copyright infringement"?) are not real at all and are, for the most part, random numbers apparently generated at will by RIAA/MPAA to sensationalise copyright infringement cases.

Sony

[vodkamattvt]

Sony has been racking up the karma lately, all bad it seems. Unfortunately, with the way the content "industry" is these days, Im not sure it will get better before it gets worse. Im sure the lesson here that all the other big media monopolists learned is to be more ... discreet ... when trying to screw Joe Public. Or worse, screw Joe Public by going through Big Brother.

Oh great...

[Spy der Mann]

the last thing we need is Britney Spears saying Open Source is cool. *shudder* :-S

Re:Oh great...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd sure like to take a look at Britney's source!

Re:Oh great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Heaven forbid some know-nothing celebrity says they like something so that a bunch of know-nothing hanger-ons can imitate her?

Am I the only person that doesn't understand why that makes you shudder? Seriously, your post makes no sense and you're an idiot.

The idea that idiots like you breed makes me shudder.

Re:Oh great...

[MysteriousPreacher]

It's the same code that's been churned out by record companies for the past few years with a few dirty hacks.

Re:Oh great...

[Tribbin]

We need an Ellen Feiss!!!

[URL:http://ellenfeiss.net/temp/movie.php?movie=mo vies/ellen_feiss.mov]

Counterargument on price fixing

[Michael Woodhams]

The summary on Sony price-fixing portrays it as a Bad Thing. Here's a counter-argument.

If Acme sells the Acme Wizmaster 5000 cheaper to high-street stores than to "e-tailers", it could be because Acme believes that the stores are providing Acme with additional benefits. A potential buyer can go into Gadgets-R-Us and see the Acme Wizmaster, see how big it really is (much more useful than text saying "15 cm diameter"), how solid it feels, what the UI is like etc. There is a shop attendent who can answer questions on the spot. These services make it more likely the shopper will buy the Acme Wizmaster. If Acme doesn't sell at discount to the brick-and-mortar stores, they will go out of business because they can't compete with the web stores, and potential customers won't have anywhere they can go to see an actual Wizmaster. (Or Acme has to set up "demonstration stores", where they demonstrate but don't necessarily sell stuff. The high-street stores save them this expense.)

Re:Counterargument on price fixing

[SkipRosebaugh]

All of which is very nice. Except when you walk into your average music shop, you will find a shrinkwrapped LatestPopStar cd, and possibly a cardboard standup and a TV playing music videos from MTV. The customer can't open the cd and listen to it before buying, the way he can examine the quality of the Acme Wizmaster. Apples to apples, please.

Re:Counterargument on price fixing

[terrymr]

ok ... but then circuit city, best buy etc. shouldn't get the discount because it's impossible to find anybody with a clue there.

Re:Counterargument on price fixing

[esampson]

Often the customer can listen to tracks for new CDs on machines in the store. Also they are (theoretically) able to talk to people in the store who might have useful insights into music that they were not aware of. Then there is the factor of instant gratification and the ability to handle cash (since lots of 16 year olds buy CDs but don't neccessarily have credit cards).

I'm sure there are plenty of other services that storefronts offer over online stores, which is all the OP was really saying.

Re:Counterargument on price fixing

[BrynM]

If Acme doesn't sell at discount to the brick-and-mortar stores, they will go out of business because they can't compete with the web stores, and potential customers won't have anywhere they can go to see an actual Wizmaster. (Or Acme has to set up "demonstration stores", where they demonstrate but don't necessarily sell stuff. The high-street stores save them this expense.)

Your analogy is good except for the advertising involved with music. Consider if Acme had MTV, VH1, BET, E!, Entertainment Tonight and all of the other tv outlets in addition to the godawful amount of people playing the Wiz5K on the radio plus magazines interviewing the makers of the 5K at every opportunity plus the Wiz5K 2005 North American Tour. Hell, you'd have to nearly enter a sensory dep environment to avoid the newest Wizmaster... the public is most likely already dreaming of the 6K and it hasn't even been made yet. The interviewers keep asking about it.

Gladly, nothing is quite like the modern music intdustry. The amount the big players are saturating us is quite insane already. The only reason to have hard product in the stores for the likes of Sony is to villify anything that isn't a hard product including the sales mechanism. It's their soapbox and they'll be damned if they let you insult it. The only way they'll let that soapbox be ruined is by bashing it over your head, which we are now watching them do. I hope that thing falls apart soon. The headache is killing me.

Re:Counterargument on price fixing

[illtud]

Your analogy is good except for the advertising involved with music.

And your post is good except this is about Sony's electronic products, not music.

Sheesh. RTFA. +4 Insightful??

Re:Counterargument on price fixing

[PhilHibbs]

The article is about consumer electronics such as DVD players and TVs, not music.

Re:Counterargument on price fixing

[BrynM]

And your post is good except this is about Sony's electronic products, not music.

Have you watched TV lately? Ever seen a game/reality show? Watch one and count the plugs for products. Keep an eye out for the upcoming holidy buying guides featured in print, radio and tv. The plugs for product are there just as bad as for music. How about going to see a game at 3Com... err Pacbell... err SBC Park here in San Francisco? How about going to see a movie or eat at the Sony Metreon? What cell phone is Paris Hilton talking into today? What product is sponsoring the latest band's tour?

The marketing is blurred between the product lines to ensure brand loyalty today. Music, gadgets, celebrity... It's all being marketed together.

Huh?

[Mr2cents]

Sony denies penalising internet shopping sites, arguing that it is rewarding stores that can demonstrate its products.

Can someone explain me the difference?

Re:Huh?

[esampson]

Well, since you are talking about taking less from one person than another it does become something of a matter of perspective as to whether one person is being penalized or another rewarded, in this case. One of the posters up above provided a good business reason as to why Sony might wish to penalize online/reward high street shops other than just trying to keep prices high.

What isn't a matter of perspective are the terms 'cartel' (a group of businesses that dominate or monopolize a market that work in agreement) and 'price fixing' (when a group of companies collaborate to control the prices on something, with the implication of keeping the price artificially inflated).

Sony, being a single business (large though it may be) doesn't constitute a cartel on it's own and it's not making any agreements with anyone concerning pricing. Online retailers are free to charge as much or as little as they wish.

None of which is to say that I agree or disagree with Sony's stance. I am simply pointing out that the poster of the article has used several 'loaded' words in a situation where they do not actually apply.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone explain me the difference?

They're paying brick and mortar stores to showcase the product and have sales goons force sales on hapless customers. In exchange for this service, Sony gives them a price break.

Re:Huh?

[kg4czo]

I'd like to point out that Sony is basically a group. There's Sony/BMG, Sony/Arista, Sony/Columbia, Sony Games, Sony Electronics, and a slew of other "partner" companies (all owned and operated through Sony). So basically, your "one company" is a bunch of smaller companies. It's very likely that Sony's different subsidiaries conspired to "price fix", which would account for a ton of music worldwide.

Re:Huh?

[advocate_one]

the difference is in the store, you can actually see the product, pick the box up and read the blurb on it, try it out if it's been set up, and generally play around with it... on tha intarweb, you can't do any of these. It's as bad as mail order, you have to take the page at face value and can't actively check it out without having to order the damned thing. The problem currently facing stores is that savvy web customers are going into stores, checking the items out and then going off and finding it as cheap as possible on the web. It isn't fair on the stores at all.

Re:Huh?

[zazzel]

The problem currently facing stores is that savvy web customers are going into stores, checking the items out and then going off and finding it as cheaply as possible on the web.

Well, the way *I* shop for CDs and DVDs is: I walk into a store, don't find the product I was searching for and have no noticeable customer service. Then I try to check out a different product, out of sheer frustration. I find that there are no headphones to listen to the CD, then leave the store.
At home, I find the CD I was looking for at amazon.com, with a discount, comments from other customers and the ability to listen to it before I buy. Then I check out prices and order the CD.

There goes your argument down the drain, though it surely is valid for other products - but definitely NOT CDs (essentially data with a cover sheet).

Re:Huh?

[Sheridan]

I am simply pointing out that the poster of the article has used several 'loaded' words in a situation where they do not actually apply.

The original poster (me) merely used words quoted from one of the articles he linked in his submission in order to help summarise it. My first reaction therefore was to just reply "RTFA". Unfortunately, the article link in question has been trimmed by the /. editor before posting the story so "TFA" in question wasn't there to "R".

The article I refer to is here at The Scotsman.

If their claim of Sony being "one of up to five leading companies" doing this than "cartel" may indeed be correct. Of course that would imply some collusion taking place. The other companies they claim are involved are Panasonic, Sharp, Phillips and Hitachi.

Hope this clears up the language in the original submission.
--
I'm not politically incorrect, I'm just differently articulate

Re:Huh?

[Sheridan]

Aargh... replace "doing this than" with "doing this then". Ironically, "than" in place of "then" is one of the typos/thinkos/idiocies that most annoys me when I read it elsewhere (I think "loose" in place of "lose" is the worst though).
--
This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. -- Wolfgang Pauli

Re:Huh?

[Dave2 Wickham]

Except Sony makes far, far more than CDs... the dual-pricing issue is focused on electronics, i.e. DVD players, TVs, etc.

Re:Huh?

[esampson]

Sony/BMG, Sony/Arista, et al. are all owned by the same company when you get to the top of the chain while cartels have separate owners. The various sub-companies of Sony form a Conglomeration if you need a term for them but calling them a cartel is simply wrong.

Re:Huh?

[esampson]

Sorry if it sounded like I was coming down on you. I truth I was really trying to illustrate that the terms 'cartel' and 'price fixing' were wrong, wherever they may have come from. The reason I mentioned that the words cared certain emotional connotations was meant to show that there was a reason for the hair splitting and I wasn't just being a grammar Nazi, but it probably sounded more like I was accusing you of bias, which wasn't my intent.

Re:Sony & Karma

[Anonymous Coward]

You know that beetle that rolls up little balls of cow dung? At this rate Sony decision are going to come back as the bacteria on the dung beetle's bung.

The Terrible Secret of Space.

[hackwrench]

Microsoft is clearly the Pusher robot here.

http://www.kilna.com/music/terrible_stairs
http://www.kilna.com/music/terrible_protected

I mean, come on... what rock have you been hiding under? These aren't even illegal free downloads!

Hmm... Maybe that's the problem.

MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

The parent isn't a troll, mods. He may have a different opinion than you, but he did not post to start a flame war. He has the guts to say what he believes, and that doesn't deserve karma hell.

Emacspeak and KDE3.4

[HermanAB]

Well, UNIX/Linux has had Emacspeak for ages:
http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/

and new versions of KDE also support the blind. Therefore, OOo need not support the blind directly - KDE provides that.

Re:Emacspeak and KDE3.4

[Anonymous Coward]

Mentioning Emacs and usability in the same sentence only works if you have a negative qualifier in there, ie "emacs is not usable".

Re:Emacspeak and KDE3.4

[dolphinling]

...which is completely irrelevant, as what's in question here is accessibility.

Reality...

[hackwrench]

Real company with real potential to provide a real service... so come again?

Though if you bring up vaporware, you might have a point on that one.

Re:Sony...

[krbvroc1]

Sorry, according to the EULA and copyright laws, it would be a violation for me to send you a copy of the rootkit.

Does no one find this comic from last year ironic?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=2005- 11-04

.doc may suffice between nobility and commoners

[tepples]

[Poor] people may need to send or receive documents from the well-to-do people that are using Microsoft Office already.

I would imagine that documents exchanged between the nobility and the commoners aren't likely to use macros, heavy dependence on pagination quirks, or other features of .doc or .rtf that OOo 2.0 RC3 doesn't emulate properly.

Re:Sony...

[zoloto]

since when has anyone here ever worried about unenforcable contracts?

Hardware NOT media

[MushMouth]

If you bothered to read the first paragraph of the article you would have noticed that this is about DVD PLAYERS and HiFi[sic] systems.

Re:MOD PARENT *DOWN*

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course you're a troll, fuckwad. You prefixed your opinion with "I'm a Christian..." And yes, I said you. Because unless you're "him", how do you know that 'he' is a he, or what his motivation was?

Oh, and you're offtopic, too.

Use a good analogy next time

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry, you fail at logic and reasoning
Your analogy is based on bad logic and fallacy,
Online stores "demonstrate the product" as your call it, just as much as street-level retailers do, if not more.
how?
lets see: most online stores allow the buyer to listen to clips of ALL available songs before buying them, whereas only a portion of the retailer's stock is available for sampling
just cuz the physical media isn't available to be touched doesn't mean the product doesn't get demonstrated, esp with content based products such as music.
if anything, the online stores give out more "test drives" of the product than the street vendors do.
          (this is actually good i think, i prefer to get a fresh cd case, rather one that has been dinged up by being handled by the browsing shoppers)

Re:Use a good analogy next time

[Michael Woodhams]

It is a little-known fact that Sony sell electronics as well as music.

Re:Use a good analogy next time

[Anita Coney]

You just proved his point. If you buy online you can read reviews from actual users. When you're dealing with a retailer you're stuck with his or her biased opinion.

When you buy online you can quickly read all of the products detailed features, including the product manual. When you buy retail you're stuck with a retailer saying, "Sure it has those features, I promise."

Re:Does no one find this comic from last year iron

[shawb]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Re:Sony...

[micpp]

The EULA may be an unenforcable contract, but copyright laws sure aren't.

Those clerks are fanatical stallmanians

[rekrutacja]

Don Parris is one-man christian think tank supporting free software philosophy. His book "Penguin in a pew" makes very interesting reading.

Re:Those clerks are fanatical stallmanians

[ceejayoz]

One-man think tank?

Doesn't that make it more of a puddle?

Re:Those clerks are fanatical stallmanians

[ozmanjusri]

Doesn't that make it more of a puddle?

Actually, I had visions of an extremely loyal, self-aware M1A1 Abrams with a crucified penguin strapped to its turret. I think I need a brainwash.

Re:fp

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Union, God hate.... meh

Lost faith

[phorm]

They're losing the faith of the marketplace, industry, and quite possibly their investors. In the end it might cost them more than the few pennies of monentary 'losses' they're current reporting.

Simpsons

[sponga]

Haha I was just watching the simpsons and when homer goes to college and walks in on the nerds homer says something to the sense of, Homer: "All you nerds know is Math, Science and all the quotes to Monthy Python"

included in VAIOs and Walkman Software?

[centinall]

Since sony sees nothing wrong with installing a rootkit while simply playing a music "CD", why would they not resort to the same thing when packaging software along with their hardware products? So, has anyone investigated whether these rootkits come preinstalled on VAIOs or come bundled inside the crap software that sony makes you install on your computer to upload music to Walkman? This would surely damage what's left of their image.
Anyone?

Re:included in VAIOs and Walkman Software?

[Kris_J]

I'll check my mother's VIAO the next time she brings it home and report back on my Slashdot Journal.

Re:included in VAIOs and Walkman Software?

[Kris_J]

I'll check my mother's VIAO the next time she brings it home and report back on my Slashdot Journal.

A 1.5 to 2 year old Sony VIAO laptop does not appear to have the rootkit pre-installed. It might have other Sony junk on it, but I think it's relatively clear of their insane IP-protection black-hat junk.

http://slashdot.org/~Kris_J/journal/122581

Re:Does no one find this comic from last year iron

[nonother]

I think you mean two weeks ago, not last year.

What Gains?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yes, this "LOSSES" arguement easily fits into the piracy problem and how the MPAA has "LOST" so much money."

If piracy can't create "losses", then piracy likewise can't create "benefits".*

"Stop! Just stop falling for their vocabulary changes."

Oh, no the pro-piracy group would never stoop that low.

*Well there goes the "free advertising" argument.

Re:Seems a bit unfair - MOD THIS UP!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft Office supports the needs of blind users. The OpenDocument alternatives do not. Massachusetts bars government use of Office until it complies with OpenDocument. Microsoft, at the moment, is going to concede the market to the alternatives. So how exactly does this become "Microsoft mean to blind users!"

I can't believe this was modded down - shortly after this story was posted it was at +5, and apparently it's Flamebait now. This is one of the most sane postings I've read in this story.

God I wish I had modpoints...

They would, wouldn't they...

[SleepyHappyDoc]

I can understand why the clergy avoids Microsoft formats. They obviously don't believe in Intelligent Design.

Re:They would, wouldn't they...

[pho3nixtar]

I truly hope you're being sarcastic... MS = "ID"?

Microsoft, Sony, Slashdot

[TheSpoom]

I submitted an article a few days ago about how Microsoft is going to remove the Sony XCP rootkit from Windows computers using AntiSpyware and automatic updates through the Malicious Software Removal Tool. Story was rejected. I fully expected to see someone mentioning it in a Slashback but apparently not.

Now, I can understand them rejecting articles, I've had my fair share in the past. But does Slashdot dislike Microsoft that much that they wouldn't post something that will effectively close the rootkit story next month, and instead keep posting about how bad it is?

Re:fp

[HermanAB]

Sure, but which God? You got to be more specific.

Re:fp

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm, the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Doesn't it sound like Enron to anyone?

[Ieshan]

If anyone's seen the Enron Movie "The Smartest Guys in the Room", the whole thing sounds a lot like the Enron scandal. Enron essentially posted "earnings" which weren't really earnings yet; they were scamming their stockholders into thinking their company was making money by "projecting" future earnings into their current quarterly earnings reports.

Obviously, this is illegal. It may be hard to imagine why it would be illegal to do the same thing in reverse - i.e., project losses without any actual substantial loss taking place - but the MPAA/RIAA is showing that it can be a valuable force in getting the entertainment industry leverage in legislation.

Just seems like a very strange practice, projecting ghost earnings or ghost losses to manipulate the market. And also an illegal one.

Re:Doesn't it sound like Enron to anyone?

[Red Flayer]

"Just seems like a very strange practice, projecting ghost earnings or ghost losses to manipulate the market. And also an illegal one."

That's why the **AA don't include it on their financial statements, shareholder statements, or other financial disclosures. And typically, they'll talk about lost revenue, which they can do.

Re: Using "Intelligent Design" is hijacking

[Peer Janssen]

I don't see why it would be any less intelligent of God to create a world in which evolution can create species than to create a world in which everything would be placed at one day as if evolution created it, or as if it were literally as the bible describes.

So using the term "Intelligent Design" for anti-evolutionism seems like a bad hijacking attempt to me.

Injuns 1 Cowboys 0

[Anonymous Coward]

Just heard on the BBC that ex-coke sellers / neo soft drugs pusher: Coca-Cola has been given a record breaking fine for monopolistic practices in Mexico.

Let's hear a big one for the little guy (or rather in this case the gal) a small shop-keeper in a poor district who took them on when they tried to force her into not selling other brands of pop.

Personally I can't wait until Sony are bought out by a reputable company. I might even migrate to a SonyJobs if Apple take them over. Does anyone remember who invented pocket music players BTW?

YEE-HAAH!!

(Aptly the password required on this post, to prove I am not a script is: "screwed" :/.)

LGPL violation (was Re:Sony?)

[Sheridan]

I think that the LGPL violation is one of the major issues in this story. since it seems pretty clear that .ocx files on the CD actually statically link LAME code (i.e. it's not just a few strings/tables included in go.exe either accidentally, or as part of a LAME recognition routine as was previously speculated).

I'm surprised that more isn't being made of it either by the media (who could doubtless use Sony/RIAA-type language to describe it "Sony distributes pirated software on copy-protected CDs" or even more sensationalist "Sony stole software for virus CDs") or the LAME maintainers/copyright holders.

I'd love to see Sony forced to explain/justify their own copyright infringement to the public at large, and preferably to the courts.

--
I'm not politically incorrect, I'm just differently articulate

Fool!

[KlausBreuer]

Ok, come on and admit it, chaps: Peter Francis-Macrae is a fool.
He was caught after earning about 1.5 million pounds ($2.57 million or 2.2 million Euro).

I mean, heck, I'd have cleared out after a million bucks. At age 23!
And don't tell me you're not jealous ;)

while the idea of

[alizard]

"Britney Spears saying Open Source is cool." is fairly repulsive and does make me sort of want to wash my brain out with bleach, we need support wherever we can get it at this point.

Plus, younger slashdotters might find a certain amount of social advantage from a public statement like that, as their female classmates find out where Open Source comes from and who around school campuses actually do things with it.

Not quite a price-fixing cartel

[soma_0806]

Sony's actions are actually a pretty classic price discrimination case, but certainly not a price-fixing cartel. That would necessitate evidence of other companies agreeing with them to do the same.

AC

The NET Act Could Make P2P Criminal?

[Anonymous Coward]

IANAL, but the meaning of "commercial" was expanded in the NET Act.

It includes activities like giving someone a copy of a copyrighted work for copies of other copyrighted works.

In other words, it was presumably intended to make sharing works on P2P a criminal (rather than a civil) offense.

I'd be careful, then, to take Ars Technica's word for this (or indeed, my own) unless you want to hire lawyers to represent you should you be wrong (or, better, to make sure you're right).