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Have Geeks Gone Mainstream?
An anonymous reader asks: "Recently, I've been seeing more and more news stories about how 'geek' has gone mainstream. There have been a slew of articles with titles like Geek Pride and Geek Chic, which discuss how movies like 'The 40-Year Old Virgin' and 'Napoleon Dynamite', as well as television shows like 'Beauty and the Geek' have made it cool to be a geek. Two pinup calendars of geeks have been released this year, taking advantage of the new mainstream interest in all things geeky. These include the Geek Gorgeous Calendar, which features women who work in the hi-tech industry, and the Girls of Geekdom Calendar, which includes geeks like 'Art Geek' and 'Movie Geek'. So if being a geek has really become cool, why has interest in CS as a major dropped among incoming freshmen and women are still a minority in computer and engineering fields? Is it cooler to pretend to be a geek (wear 'Save Pedro' shirts, etc.) than to really be one?"
I blame napoleon dynamite, he gives us all a bad name...
Behold, another webcomic!
Part of the definition is that it is not mainstream.
If anyone from a previous century saw the average person today, they'd think we were all geeks (or spacepeople or heretics)
I might not understand, but I thought it portrayed geeks in the worst light humanly possible, and that is where it got its humor from. How would that make it cool to be a geek?
Interest in being a CS major has dropped because there is a well known stereotype about IT workers being the most overworked and underappreciated and underpaid people in any business. The fact that this is often the truth does not help matters.
...the mainstream is enamoured with geekdom.
True geeks will never go mainstream. They'll (we'll) always be geeks unto our own.
sig: sauer
Only the hollywood version of the "geek" has gone mainstream. If people knew and understood real geeks, nobody would want to be one.
Meh.
Sorry to say, but I just think that the "computer geek" pin-up model just fits too well with the typical computer geek... TOO well to be a pin-up, maybe. I don't really think that geek will ever really be cool or sexy, since an important part of what makes someone a geek is the lack of concern for coolness and a really under-developed (read:adolescent) sexual identity. Not only that, but the most geeky geeks that I know are much more concerned about the most correct logical conjugation of something than the idea that other people (especially those who aren't too interested in some obscure geekiness) even exist as incarnations other than a computer-screen glow. I mean, being a geek seems antithetical to being cool.
Since when did a movie like that make geeks look "cool"? It's about a guy with several stereotypically geeky hobbies, who can't get laid AT ALL despite being at least reasonably attractive. Yeah, he's "nice" but that's like saying Gone With the Wind helped whites accept blacks because Mammy didn't shoot and rob Scarlett (much as the rest of us may have wanted to).
Notice they didn't make the character a beer-bellied 40-year-old sports fan virgin with a collection of World Series bobbleheads, that's all I'm saying. Don't kid yourselves that geeks are now "cool".
Freedom: "I won't!"
Not everyone who choses comp sci or some other "geeky" degree is automatically a geek. A lot of people are just in it for the money. If you look at the graph in the one linked article, there are two spikes -- the first one starting in the late 70's and early 80's and peaking in 83-84, which corresponds with the rise and fall of the 8-bit personal computer era; and the second one centered around the internet bubble. When computers were percieved as being a cool and/or profitable career in mainstream culture, a lot of people gravitated for it for the status and/or the money, not because they were computer geeks. When the bubble bursts and computers fall out of the spotlight, the trend-followers leave for greener pastures.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Maybe because such stupid calendars? When was the last time you saw Linus, Ingo, and Stallman on a pinup calendar? Sure, you will kid about their (esp. Stallman) appearance. But that is my point!! Nobody cares about these male ubergeeks' appearance; why should we care about the female geeks' ?
I, for one, would like to see more sites dedicated to the many female geeks in our community who quietly toil away. The best way to promote geekdom among women is to highlight the women geeks' accomplishments, and not their vital stats. (If there are such sites out there, please post some links).
Geeks haven't gone mainstream. Mainstream - as it always does - has borrowed elements from what it thinks geeks are about and misappropriated them. Namely, it's taken consumer electronic technology advancement and misidentified what is a continuation of the hi-fi, walkman and telephone as geekiness. That's just human progression, geeks are always one step ahead (or behind, depending on how you look at it).
The core of being a geek mainstream will never have; the focussed, almost obsessive interest in certain subjects. Mainstream by definition is superficial, throwaway and temporary, geekdom is built on much more substantial foundations such as science, knowledge and a need to understand.
I started college in 2001 right before the bubble burst (it was just starting). I can't tell you how many idiots there were who entered CS along with me. There were people there who had never used a computer (literally). People who didn't know how to type, people with no math skills (I'm talking sub-algebra), etc. Those people were obviously in it for the money (which they all freely admitted). There was one or two (usually older adults) who decided to do it to learn more ("I don't know anything about computers, and I wanted to learn what made them tick."), but the vast majority were in it for the cash. Even among those who were more qualified, there were many who were in it for the money. You could tell who was who pretty easily. Those with the real passion already knew many things from studying it themselves. Those who wanted the cash tended to do the bare minimum and write horrid code ("As long as it works!").
Now that the bubble has burst, those people aren't there. If you want to compare enrollment numbers, look at the numbers from 1992 or 1995 so (before the bubble). I don't know what those numbers are, but I would think they would be more representative.
From what I hear, bio-med is the new CS. That (along with possibly accounting) is where you go if you want money as it is the new in industry with high pay.
It would be interesting to see how enrollment has changed over the last 10-20 years if you could filter out the gold-diggers. It would still be higher during the bubble from people who went into computers because they found them interesting (as they became more popular, more people became exposed, so more become interested). I'd love to see that.
As to the question "Have geeks gone mainstream"? No. They haven't. They never will. They existed in the '50s. They existed in the '70s. They existed in the '90s. They exist today. That is nearly 60 years and they haven't gone "mainstream" yet. Blacks have gone mainstream in that time (they are no longer outcasts). Gays have gone mainstream (you may say they're not there yet, but they are more than geeks). And geeks existed before the 1950s too. I don't think it will ever happen. We may get some acceptance, some respect, but we're not going to be mainstream. We're never going to see "pro-geeks" like we see "pro-atheletes".
At least not any time soon.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Geek is like cool: You don't declare yourself geek, you must be considered by your peers to be geek.
This doesn't mean that geek is cool, nor that cool is geek.
"Napoleon Dynamite" was a terrible movie. Or, at least, it had a terrible image of geekdom.
The kid had various geek stereotypes, sure. Lack of coordination, unshapely body, poor taste in dress, and so on.
But, the kid was not intelligent. That was made obvious. He was in fact less intelligent than most his age. And further, he lived a life full of pretension...he did not have the strong and direct mannerisms from which geeks draw their antisocial stereotypes. Instead he makes up shallow and obviously stupid stories about his exploits, utterly oblivious to how transparent they are.
How does he save himself at the end? By becoming brilliant? NO! By learning to DANCE. TO DANCE!!! What does that have to do with geekdome? Sure there is nothing wrong with it, but dancing is what the NON-GEEKS do to be cool.
If you want to see a REAL geek movie, go watch Real Genius. And maybe read some Larry Niven.
Geekery is defined by sublime levels of self-mastery. Geeks reject social standards which hold no value for them, and cultivate their minds to no end. The power of the human mind is what separates us from lower animals, and the geekly expression of this power places us at the cutting edge of human evolution. This is where the value of geekdom lies.
I would further suggest that geeks are the true authors of the world as we know it. Who invented shampoo? Who designed the intricate networks of pipes that carry our waste neatly away? Who created fine fabrics and devised methods of weaving them into finer clothing? Who created sports cars? Air conditioning? Athletic shoes? Everything, absolutely EVERYTHING that non-geeks love about themselves and their world was created by geeks.
Go geek or go away.
Ok, I am done.
If you find it "hard to be a geek" then you arn't a geek. You don't try to be what you are, you just are.
I like muppets.
Being a true geek, at least in the sense that most here would understand, can never be "mainstream." If it ain't sports or business or the like, it isn't mainstream.
For example, I was once out to dinner with several people in a business setting. The subject of high school sports came up. Five guys at the table spent the better part of an hour discussing divisions, rules, team rivalries, and the intricacies of who plays whom in what division/playoff/etc. They could discuss all the rule changes over the past 20 years and the pros/cons of it. You could have called them sports geeks, but that's a contradiction in terms in my opinion. Most people could at least follow the conversation or understand it or even have some remote interest in it.
Now imagine if that conversation instead was about FreeBSD vs. NetBSD vs. OpenBSD. Imagine if the conversation was about P2P software and the law. Imagine if 5 guys sat around discussing Ruby on Rails vs. Java. Imagine if 5 guys talked about modding a VW to hold a Mac. Most people would yawn or find it too technical or, well, geeky.
For that reason, true "geekdom" can never be mainstream.
-- Fugacity: Confusing chemists since 1908
First it was the H1B, then it was offshoring. The damage that these two have done to the field can never be recovered. The ironic part is now that so many people are dropping out of school or refusing to go to school for these fields now for these reasons that actually may be a genuine shortage in several years. Combine these with the fact that it's very difficult for an entry to mid level person to get a job without experience in the exact version of a product and you have successfully doomed the IT field in the US.
Too bad the US doesn't have apprentice programs such as they use in Germany.
Um, forgive me if this has already been pointed out, but since when does releasing a calendar filled with completely generic, scantily-clad women randomly labelled as "geeks" make the genre cool? If I didn't know any better, I'd venture to say that those calendars were for the benefit of geeks, not comprised of their female counterparts.
Yes, Geek Chic has been a growing fad for at least the last three or four years now. It parallels the growth in the emo/indie rock movement, as this, along with old folks clothing seems to be their main style.
You know its bad when you go to a coffee shop and see people with dark-rimmed glasses with no lenses and dirty scruffy hair listening to their ipods.
Geek chic is just another way to be a wolf in sheep's clothing.
"Her idea of wit is nothing more than an incisive observation humorously phrased and delivered with impeccable timing."
I'm in engineering school right now, and this question really doesn't make much sense to me.
Geeks are NOT all the same, and therefore have varying degrees of attractiveness. For example, I have one friend who is extremely bright and who, as a high school senior, did research at Case-Western over the summer about semiconductor design. He's also very outgoing, loves to talk to people, and enjoys non-techie things such as philosophy and English. I consider him a major geek because of his love for and knowledge of Electrical Engineering, but he's very socially capable and has some very attractive qualities.
I have another friend who is a HUGE geek in terms of his raw intelligence. He got into MIT with some scholarship, has a high GPA at the moment despite taking honors classes, and knows tons about electronics. He also is so skilled with the guitar that he almost played professionally. However, his personality sucks, and his personal hygeine is lacking. His room is a mess and smells strongly of odd herbs. He has a superiority complex and feels that he's better than everyone else. He's overweight and revels in his obesity. This makes him quite unattractive.
I think that deep knowledge, understanding, and intelligence is ALWAYS an attractive quality in someone. But that's not the only factor to be considered when discussing the "coolness" of geeks. There are so many different types of geeks that it's IMPOSSIBLE to make a blanket statement about whether or not they're cool or attractive. Bottom line: some are cool, some are not.
In the past when I was growing up (1980s), a geek was a guy or girl who was particularly obsessed with some unpopular but intellectual activity. It could have been computers. It could have been being on the A/V or stage crews. It could have been D&D. It could have been working in the library. Or it could have been chemistry or physics or astronomy. THAT was, is and always shall be the true geek. In fact geeks were also often synonymous with nerds. Typically geeks and nerds were not usually well liked or at best were given some kind of freak "mascot" status with the popular people.
Flash forward to the looney world of today and geekiness has been redefined. Geeks now have an edge. If they are female, maybe they wrap their slighlty overweight figures in goth clothes instead of the traditional sweater and ill fitting jeans. They use Manic Panic hair dye and shop at Hot Topic where they get their pseudo-fetish garb. They have "attitude" because they now know that the world is their oyster. The guys ditched the glasses for contacts and the pocket protectors for gadgets. They all listen to emo. Or at least, this is what the media wants you to believe.
Many of today's geeks as defined by and in the media (both self professed and knighted) aren't really geeks at all. They're still kids trying to fit in and choosing yet another fashion fad that tries, but fails, to be truly self-deprecating. And the interests of these so-called geeks are no longer unpopular. Video gaming? I think that pretty much knocks out the interest in popular music that used to be the hallmark of teen life. Role playing games? There are lots more people who are into them these days and they have that "edge" that the originals lacked. Graphic Novels? The only thing geeky about that activity is the interaction with the sneering comic book guy jackass who runs the store where they are sold.
Computers? Ahhhh yes. Computers. There are so many people who mistakenly assume that someone who can fix a minor problem or tweak a Windows box is a "computer geek". Ask one of these "geeks" how to tell if they are being scanned via the command prompt and you'd likely get a blank stare. People who can use Windows at even a moderately advanced level are not "geeks". They are simply people who have learned how to use a mainstream appliance. The number of e-mail addresses or IM clients one has does not make them a geek. It's a lot like calling people in the 80s who could actually set their VCR and Microwave oven clocks, "geeks". basic computer usage is no longer a qualifier to the title geek.
Gadgets? One of the BIGGEST mistaken assumptions by the masses and the media is the confusion between a geek and a "gadget guy". It's an easy one to make because most people are bewildered by gadgets and assume that mastery of these devices MUST be a geeky persuit. Of course, they are wrong. Ownership of a large screen television, two cell phones with bluetooth, a PDA, pager and home theater set up do not endow one with "geekiness". Tragically, the gadget guy is simply a conspicuous consumer with nothing better to do than attempt to master these machines and thereby appear "geeky" to the less perceptive. Most gadget guys tend to be office workers with little or not actual technical or scientific background at all. The true geek BUILDS his own A/V gear. He eschews the big box stores like Best Buy and prefers to scour the internet for circuit diagrams for the latest audio amp and then orders the parts to build it from Digikey. Do not think that because you can plug in a brand new SATA or IEEE1384 adapter card that you are a geek. The real geeks you went to school with would laugh their horkly little nasal passages away at the notion that one considers themselves a geek for using a PnP PCI card. No sir... back in the day, it was editing CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT and making sure you had enough free memory in the right spots. Today, as horrible as PnP can be, it's still child's play compared to what REAL geeks were do
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
"You're home on a friday night reading slashdot!!! You're either a geek or married." Or both! (Extra bonus points: I'm working from home tonight too!) My wife is playing Super Tux (and knows who Tux is) because she's already finished Knights of the Old Republic I & II. And I have the last of the New Jedi Order Star Wars books that I'll finish reading tomorrow. Maybe it's cool to be a geek, maybe not -- but either way, it sure is a lot of fun! Many of our friends walk in and see an Item of Geek Paraphenalia (like the star wars books) and suddenly realize that we are, perhaps, just a little geeky. Then we all play a game of Cranium and have a great time. Geeky? Sure! Are we happy? Yup! Do I care if it's cool? Not really.
Female geeks are one thing. Being both female and a geek are not bad things. Geekgrrls, in my limited observation, and non-geek women are indistinguishable at a glance (barring the obvious like hosting a BOF session or Local LUG meeting). In terms of social graces, both in behavior and appearance, you just don't know.
Faking it as a guy is another.
As a real male geek, generally speaking, there is the stereotype of social maladroitness and unkempt appearance. (Not that that's a hard-and-fast rule; you can find male geeks wearing fashionable clothes and three-piece suits, and you can find male geeks who are the life of the party and/or (usually and) have an attractive date. But the stereotype exists for a reason.)
I mean, what the hell are real male geeks good for other than setting up networks, getting you online, removing spyware, deleting viruses, upgrading software, programming the VCR.....
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
The "Image" of being a geek is now "Cool".
I remember back when I was in High School there were a lot of kids wearing the latest skateboarding fashions. Now I feel the way I did then - "I got the crap kicked out of me for being who I was, and now someone else is popular pretending to be me. WTF?"
Even worse when it's a sunny Saturday afternoon ;-) ...
...but in any case:
So if being a geek has really become cool, why has interest in CS as a major dropped among incoming freshmen and women are still a minority in computer and engineering fields...
I suspect the OP is only seeing part of the picture. I know a lot of heavy-duty geeks who pursue other sciences such as molecular biology (such as myself), chemistry, physics and mathematics. And I see no lack of enrolments in those areas at my university.
It may be that geeks just make for "entertaining" material, as far as the public is concerned; sort of like watching live car chases even though there is a 90% chance he'll end up captured. Maybe watching geeks not get any makes other people feel better about themselves. It is like, "I might be a loser, but at least I am not a geek." People loved watching Erkle, but few would want to *be* Erkle. Same with circus clowns.
Table-ized A.I.
Although I do have to admit, for those of us guys who only are attracted to geek girls...this is certainly bringing in some fresh blood. The funny thing is, while they want to pretend to be like us, they don't really want to be us. They don't have the same interests that we do, they just have an interest in our subculture. Original geeks flocked together because of their geeky interests, these people are flocking to us now because of the media attention.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
Let's be honest: a country that pays athletes millions a month, but hands out green-cards to anyone that can teach in an exact science, has to get it's priorities right.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
I am not well informed about your MIS program so I won't make so many assumptions as the previous reply to your comment. I am a geek, sure, I use Linux, I read Slashdot, I love technology, but it by no means defines me socially.
I am a computer engineer. I also do consultant work in IT/IS. As a computer engineer in the IT field I manage projects that involve the construction of systems. CS types and MIS types are both crucial in the process of specifying and designing a system that solves a problem. I rely on MIS as users of the systems I design. They will be responsible for the product after it's deployed. They will use the reporting systems to extract business information.
In one such project I'm currently on, the MIS individual is responsible for reporting to the department of education on student data. Often she'll need to interpret the state reporting requirements, time frames, inclusion, and exclusion criteria. She'll need to actually produce those reports, verify them, and take ownership of them.
That is an important role, and one I am so glad that I don't have to do. I use the CS to build the system I design. They are trained to adapt to programming technology. They know the nitty-gritty details of software. Algorithms, databases, etc that actually implement the design. I expect the CS to be able to pick up the OCI API, JDBC, or DOM. I expect the MIS to be able to utilize the system we build. It may take some programming to do it, it may take some project management if the requirements are large enough to warrant a team of MIS/IS types to implement it.
Like the previous poster, I too will state that project management takes a lot of experience. You need to know a lot of things. What is needed, how much time do you have, how many people will be working on it, what is the design, how can the design be broken up, how much time does it take to do X, how much time does it take to test Y? These are things that are difficult to learn in school, they come from experience.
Overall I think that the differences between CS, IS, MIS, CE, EE, etc are clear and important. There are gray areas and plenty of crossover. An MIS major may not end up doing MIS work that I described, but then he is no longer really in MIS...
An EE creates the hardware that make a computer, a CE takes the hardware and integrates software to create a platform. The CS develops an application on that platform. The MIS uses that application to get real work done.
I'm sorry if this was too wordy, I wanted to respond without seeming as pessimistic as the previous response. Best of luck in your education, career, and geekdom!
The List of Grievances with Slashdot.
A couple of years ago I went on a career shadowing program that one of the local utility companies offered. I spent the day meeting various programmers and tech related people. The degrees these people held? French Literature, Spanish language, history, among others.
I did meet one guy who held a computer science degree. He also happened the only person I met that day who worked in a cubicle, pretty much everyone else had an office. (There was a group of two or three who shared a largish room/workshop, but at least they had a ceiling and a door.)
- say "fuck it", go for an MBA, and maybe write Open Source code in her spare time
- go country shopping... very possibly, start by looking for foriegn institutions of higher learning
The "mainstreaming of geeks" is basically pop culture adjusting to the idea of "geeks" making serious money... just in time to catch the tail end of the trend. "Geek chic" is bullshit, at the end of the day, it's about making a living.Tech Public Policy stuff
I am not one to knock the trades
You know, a skilled tradesman these days will often make more than an IT worker, because there is such a shortage. Six figures, at times. In the north east, anyway.
-Stu
1) I hear people talk about building PCs the way they used to talk about tweaking their hot rods in the 50's and 60's. Heck - I just put together an AMD X2 4400+ with 4 gigs on an ASUS motherboard and can have a 'normal' conversation about it with pretty much anyone. My brother, the most non-technical person I can think of (he is a salesman) asked me "What kind of case did you put it in?". Geek has gone mainstream.
2) A college professor I know from a local user group says that 'typing speed has become macho'. That is, once a thing used to measure secretary pools is now used as bragging rights among teen boys in the context of who can type more words while fragging their opponent in an FPS.
Geeks went mainstream several years ago, when instead of being the character that was picked on, they became either the hero of the film (Jurassic Park, Independence Day), or the character you empathise with (Napolean Dynamite, Office Space, or heck - even Revenge of the Nerds).
-db
Are geeks still being called horrible names in schools? Are they still being beaten up and ridiculed? Do they still have to fear for their safety on buses, in locker rooms, and on their way home from school?
If so, geeks have not gone mainstream.
With spending like this, exactly what are "conservatives" conserving?
This is one of those frequent Slashdot articles by someone who's had a personal realization, then goes on to think that their ephiphany is cutting edge thought. In reality, geekdom started melding into mainstream society in the mid-1990s and has been mainstream for at least the last 5 years. You walk into any coffeeshop and see half a dozen people using notebook computers, 50% of which are iBooks or PowerBooks. You hear middle-aged women talking about WiFi configuration in the supermarket. Battlestar Galactica is hugely popular. Linux is written about weekly in the Wall Street Journal and New York Times.
If anything, I think there's a new breed of geek: the person who isn't as introverted as stuck in his or her ways as classic geeks tend to be. And from that point of view, Slashdot is more of an old-geek magnet, something to be chuckled at for it's quaint naiveness, much like Wired.
Being psuedo-geek is 'cool' and sells shit. Which is to say, the geek is now a demographic to be marketed to.
Sitting and home and coding or working out physics problems for fun is just as rare as it has always been.
"Male geeks have feelings, desires, hopes, and dreams just like everyone else."
That's not going to change the way people treat them. Feelings or not, you're still just a walking calculator/encyclopedia/etc.