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Have Geeks Gone Mainstream?
An anonymous reader asks: "Recently, I've been seeing more and more news stories about how 'geek' has gone mainstream. There have been a slew of articles with titles like Geek Pride and Geek Chic, which discuss how movies like 'The 40-Year Old Virgin' and 'Napoleon Dynamite', as well as television shows like 'Beauty and the Geek' have made it cool to be a geek. Two pinup calendars of geeks have been released this year, taking advantage of the new mainstream interest in all things geeky. These include the Geek Gorgeous Calendar, which features women who work in the hi-tech industry, and the Girls of Geekdom Calendar, which includes geeks like 'Art Geek' and 'Movie Geek'. So if being a geek has really become cool, why has interest in CS as a major dropped among incoming freshmen and women are still a minority in computer and engineering fields? Is it cooler to pretend to be a geek (wear 'Save Pedro' shirts, etc.) than to really be one?"
Yes. End of thread.
ERROR 144 - REBOOT ?
Yeah, it's nice. I mention I can compile a kernel in any bar, and models, strippers and hookers are begging me to do coke off their tits.
Truly amazing.
Wearing a "Save Pedro" shirt isn't cool anymore. My youngest brother is in highschool, and probably three quarters of his friends have (and regularly wear) these shirts. When a "fashion" has made it to high school it's no longer cool.
Part of the definition is that it is not mainstream.
I might not understand, but I thought it portrayed geeks in the worst light humanly possible, and that is where it got its humor from. How would that make it cool to be a geek?
Interest in being a CS major has dropped because there is a well known stereotype about IT workers being the most overworked and underappreciated and underpaid people in any business. The fact that this is often the truth does not help matters.
Only the hollywood version of the "geek" has gone mainstream. If people knew and understood real geeks, nobody would want to be one.
Meh.
...and chicks throw their panties at me when they see me in my "Free Kevin" T-shirt.
Sorry to say, but I just think that the "computer geek" pin-up model just fits too well with the typical computer geek... TOO well to be a pin-up, maybe. I don't really think that geek will ever really be cool or sexy, since an important part of what makes someone a geek is the lack of concern for coolness and a really under-developed (read:adolescent) sexual identity. Not only that, but the most geeky geeks that I know are much more concerned about the most correct logical conjugation of something than the idea that other people (especially those who aren't too interested in some obscure geekiness) even exist as incarnations other than a computer-screen glow. I mean, being a geek seems antithetical to being cool.
Circumcision is child abuse.
Since when did a movie like that make geeks look "cool"? It's about a guy with several stereotypically geeky hobbies, who can't get laid AT ALL despite being at least reasonably attractive. Yeah, he's "nice" but that's like saying Gone With the Wind helped whites accept blacks because Mammy didn't shoot and rob Scarlett (much as the rest of us may have wanted to).
Notice they didn't make the character a beer-bellied 40-year-old sports fan virgin with a collection of World Series bobbleheads, that's all I'm saying. Don't kid yourselves that geeks are now "cool".
Freedom: "I won't!"
Not everyone who choses comp sci or some other "geeky" degree is automatically a geek. A lot of people are just in it for the money. If you look at the graph in the one linked article, there are two spikes -- the first one starting in the late 70's and early 80's and peaking in 83-84, which corresponds with the rise and fall of the 8-bit personal computer era; and the second one centered around the internet bubble. When computers were percieved as being a cool and/or profitable career in mainstream culture, a lot of people gravitated for it for the status and/or the money, not because they were computer geeks. When the bubble bursts and computers fall out of the spotlight, the trend-followers leave for greener pastures.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
University of Victoria in BC, Canada did a survey among their female computer science students to find out why it isnt popular among women. It must be pointed out that UVic has a 30% female CS student population, and are shooting for 50%. The number one reason given in this survey was girls dont like CS because the classrooms and labs smell. Not surprising, since it seems that CS students personal hygiene skills are more lacking then their social skills. Sometimes it is to the point where Im ashamed to call some of these people my colleagues.
No, they are not enamoured with geekdom.
Just a short time ago, I was sitting around having coffee with a few average (cute, smart-ish, normal) chicks I'm friends with and a couple random guy friends and a couple people most of us didn't know.
In the course of conversation, I said something to the effect of "well, what do you expect - I'm a geek!".
To which one of the cute girls said (as if the words that had just come out of my mouth were something like "I'm a fat disgusting stupid braindead loser")... "Oh no, you are not! Don't be so hard on yourself!".
Seriously. I mentioned completely unashamedly that I'm just your typical geek and the response I got was this sort of consoling "dont' say such terrible things about yourself" kind of comment. She (and she wasn't alone in this) actually thought I was berating myself with such a label.
Geeks have this fucked up notion that the world loves a geek and that everyone sits around and admires the prowess of nerds, dorks and geeks. Guess what? THEY DO NOT. The people out partying and drinking and having a good time with other good looking successful non-geeks see you as someone to do their homework and fix their computers. You are not someone to be in awe of anymore than they should be in awe of the Maytag man or their mechanic.
Hearing people prattle on about how acceptable it is seem pathetic, to me. It's like the biggest group of losers in highschool getting together and saying "hey, we're totally cool! honest!" and believing that because *they* think they're top shit - the whole world does, too.
If you don't believe it, look at the Vonage ad running on Drudgereport right now that says something like "No fees. No installation. No problems. NO NERDS".
I'll proclaim my geekdom around other geeks. People outside of the geek inner circle have no need to know this about me. I'm just a normal person.
"Geek" in the mainstream is just a fad. Geek as many of you know it, can refers to the poor skinny white kid with glasses who have a hard time ever get any. What's the difference between something like The Real World (real show on MTV) or like Geeks in a Basement (something I just made up). It just exposes us to something that we're not normally accustomed to seeing, that's all. Isn't the reason why we watch tv? To be in our own fantasy world or to laugh at others?
Having a degree in computer science isn't necessarily the only way to get a computer related job when one graduates college. At my school, there are other computer related majors such as information studies (IS) and management information systems (MIS), which have different roots. I am a female MIS major at my school. The ratio of males to females in my major classes is around 60/40.
I could be a programmer when I graduate, though someone with a degree in CS would typically be more equipped to be able to do a better job than I am. I think most of the MIS girls here are going to be the project manager types as opposed to computar geeks (me). Most of the guys I know who drop out of CS go to IS or MIS (they mostly go IS because it has less prereqs).
You're home on a friday night reading slashdot!!! You're either a geek or married.
Meh.
Maybe because such stupid calendars? When was the last time you saw Linus, Ingo, and Stallman on a pinup calendar? Sure, you will kid about their (esp. Stallman) appearance. But that is my point!! Nobody cares about these male ubergeeks' appearance; why should we care about the female geeks' ?
I, for one, would like to see more sites dedicated to the many female geeks in our community who quietly toil away. The best way to promote geekdom among women is to highlight the women geeks' accomplishments, and not their vital stats. (If there are such sites out there, please post some links).
Geeks haven't gone mainstream. Mainstream - as it always does - has borrowed elements from what it thinks geeks are about and misappropriated them. Namely, it's taken consumer electronic technology advancement and misidentified what is a continuation of the hi-fi, walkman and telephone as geekiness. That's just human progression, geeks are always one step ahead (or behind, depending on how you look at it).
The core of being a geek mainstream will never have; the focussed, almost obsessive interest in certain subjects. Mainstream by definition is superficial, throwaway and temporary, geekdom is built on much more substantial foundations such as science, knowledge and a need to understand.
This might be because of two definitions of the word geek. One is the socially bad one, of a some smart, but socially annoying guy hiding in his parents basement. The other, good definition is that of a generally tech savvy individual with wide reaching interests, and a short attention span for various forms of knowlege (grokk everything, and move on). The later is okay now, whereas before we were creepy.
/., non serverfarm) world.
Really, its sort of like saying "Yeah I hacked my box", where the non-geek will take it as what we take to mean "skr1ptk1dd13" crap, when we actually mean, "it didn't work right, so I rewrote my OS" We're so used to talking to ourselves, that we forget that people use these words differently in the real (non
Also, who said you have to be a techie to be a geek? I'm a philosophy geek first, and technology comes second. I think tech is just the primary obsession of geeks since it's easier to tweak/hack/control.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
I started college in 2001 right before the bubble burst (it was just starting). I can't tell you how many idiots there were who entered CS along with me. There were people there who had never used a computer (literally). People who didn't know how to type, people with no math skills (I'm talking sub-algebra), etc. Those people were obviously in it for the money (which they all freely admitted). There was one or two (usually older adults) who decided to do it to learn more ("I don't know anything about computers, and I wanted to learn what made them tick."), but the vast majority were in it for the cash. Even among those who were more qualified, there were many who were in it for the money. You could tell who was who pretty easily. Those with the real passion already knew many things from studying it themselves. Those who wanted the cash tended to do the bare minimum and write horrid code ("As long as it works!").
Now that the bubble has burst, those people aren't there. If you want to compare enrollment numbers, look at the numbers from 1992 or 1995 so (before the bubble). I don't know what those numbers are, but I would think they would be more representative.
From what I hear, bio-med is the new CS. That (along with possibly accounting) is where you go if you want money as it is the new in industry with high pay.
It would be interesting to see how enrollment has changed over the last 10-20 years if you could filter out the gold-diggers. It would still be higher during the bubble from people who went into computers because they found them interesting (as they became more popular, more people became exposed, so more become interested). I'd love to see that.
As to the question "Have geeks gone mainstream"? No. They haven't. They never will. They existed in the '50s. They existed in the '70s. They existed in the '90s. They exist today. That is nearly 60 years and they haven't gone "mainstream" yet. Blacks have gone mainstream in that time (they are no longer outcasts). Gays have gone mainstream (you may say they're not there yet, but they are more than geeks). And geeks existed before the 1950s too. I don't think it will ever happen. We may get some acceptance, some respect, but we're not going to be mainstream. We're never going to see "pro-geeks" like we see "pro-atheletes".
At least not any time soon.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
"Napoleon Dynamite" was a terrible movie. Or, at least, it had a terrible image of geekdom.
The kid had various geek stereotypes, sure. Lack of coordination, unshapely body, poor taste in dress, and so on.
But, the kid was not intelligent. That was made obvious. He was in fact less intelligent than most his age. And further, he lived a life full of pretension...he did not have the strong and direct mannerisms from which geeks draw their antisocial stereotypes. Instead he makes up shallow and obviously stupid stories about his exploits, utterly oblivious to how transparent they are.
How does he save himself at the end? By becoming brilliant? NO! By learning to DANCE. TO DANCE!!! What does that have to do with geekdome? Sure there is nothing wrong with it, but dancing is what the NON-GEEKS do to be cool.
If you want to see a REAL geek movie, go watch Real Genius. And maybe read some Larry Niven.
Geekery is defined by sublime levels of self-mastery. Geeks reject social standards which hold no value for them, and cultivate their minds to no end. The power of the human mind is what separates us from lower animals, and the geekly expression of this power places us at the cutting edge of human evolution. This is where the value of geekdom lies.
I would further suggest that geeks are the true authors of the world as we know it. Who invented shampoo? Who designed the intricate networks of pipes that carry our waste neatly away? Who created fine fabrics and devised methods of weaving them into finer clothing? Who created sports cars? Air conditioning? Athletic shoes? Everything, absolutely EVERYTHING that non-geeks love about themselves and their world was created by geeks.
Go geek or go away.
Ok, I am done.
Well, the thing is... most geeks I know really wouldn't be interested in doing coke off of hookers' tits. Rather, they'd probably be looking for girls that like to talk (about non lame things), play games, or various other not-necessarily-that-geeky but geek-interesting activities.
Others would probably just be happy to have a woman look at them. You can pull the slashdot stereotype but there really are many varieties of geek.
If you find it "hard to be a geek" then you arn't a geek. You don't try to be what you are, you just are.
I like muppets.
Being a true geek, at least in the sense that most here would understand, can never be "mainstream." If it ain't sports or business or the like, it isn't mainstream.
For example, I was once out to dinner with several people in a business setting. The subject of high school sports came up. Five guys at the table spent the better part of an hour discussing divisions, rules, team rivalries, and the intricacies of who plays whom in what division/playoff/etc. They could discuss all the rule changes over the past 20 years and the pros/cons of it. You could have called them sports geeks, but that's a contradiction in terms in my opinion. Most people could at least follow the conversation or understand it or even have some remote interest in it.
Now imagine if that conversation instead was about FreeBSD vs. NetBSD vs. OpenBSD. Imagine if the conversation was about P2P software and the law. Imagine if 5 guys sat around discussing Ruby on Rails vs. Java. Imagine if 5 guys talked about modding a VW to hold a Mac. Most people would yawn or find it too technical or, well, geeky.
For that reason, true "geekdom" can never be mainstream.
-- Fugacity: Confusing chemists since 1908
"Her idea of wit is nothing more than an incisive observation humorously phrased and delivered with impeccable timing."
In the past when I was growing up (1980s), a geek was a guy or girl who was particularly obsessed with some unpopular but intellectual activity. It could have been computers. It could have been being on the A/V or stage crews. It could have been D&D. It could have been working in the library. Or it could have been chemistry or physics or astronomy. THAT was, is and always shall be the true geek. In fact geeks were also often synonymous with nerds. Typically geeks and nerds were not usually well liked or at best were given some kind of freak "mascot" status with the popular people.
Flash forward to the looney world of today and geekiness has been redefined. Geeks now have an edge. If they are female, maybe they wrap their slighlty overweight figures in goth clothes instead of the traditional sweater and ill fitting jeans. They use Manic Panic hair dye and shop at Hot Topic where they get their pseudo-fetish garb. They have "attitude" because they now know that the world is their oyster. The guys ditched the glasses for contacts and the pocket protectors for gadgets. They all listen to emo. Or at least, this is what the media wants you to believe.
Many of today's geeks as defined by and in the media (both self professed and knighted) aren't really geeks at all. They're still kids trying to fit in and choosing yet another fashion fad that tries, but fails, to be truly self-deprecating. And the interests of these so-called geeks are no longer unpopular. Video gaming? I think that pretty much knocks out the interest in popular music that used to be the hallmark of teen life. Role playing games? There are lots more people who are into them these days and they have that "edge" that the originals lacked. Graphic Novels? The only thing geeky about that activity is the interaction with the sneering comic book guy jackass who runs the store where they are sold.
Computers? Ahhhh yes. Computers. There are so many people who mistakenly assume that someone who can fix a minor problem or tweak a Windows box is a "computer geek". Ask one of these "geeks" how to tell if they are being scanned via the command prompt and you'd likely get a blank stare. People who can use Windows at even a moderately advanced level are not "geeks". They are simply people who have learned how to use a mainstream appliance. The number of e-mail addresses or IM clients one has does not make them a geek. It's a lot like calling people in the 80s who could actually set their VCR and Microwave oven clocks, "geeks". basic computer usage is no longer a qualifier to the title geek.
Gadgets? One of the BIGGEST mistaken assumptions by the masses and the media is the confusion between a geek and a "gadget guy". It's an easy one to make because most people are bewildered by gadgets and assume that mastery of these devices MUST be a geeky persuit. Of course, they are wrong. Ownership of a large screen television, two cell phones with bluetooth, a PDA, pager and home theater set up do not endow one with "geekiness". Tragically, the gadget guy is simply a conspicuous consumer with nothing better to do than attempt to master these machines and thereby appear "geeky" to the less perceptive. Most gadget guys tend to be office workers with little or not actual technical or scientific background at all. The true geek BUILDS his own A/V gear. He eschews the big box stores like Best Buy and prefers to scour the internet for circuit diagrams for the latest audio amp and then orders the parts to build it from Digikey. Do not think that because you can plug in a brand new SATA or IEEE1384 adapter card that you are a geek. The real geeks you went to school with would laugh their horkly little nasal passages away at the notion that one considers themselves a geek for using a PnP PCI card. No sir... back in the day, it was editing CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT and making sure you had enough free memory in the right spots. Today, as horrible as PnP can be, it's still child's play compared to what REAL geeks were do
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
"You're home on a friday night reading slashdot!!! You're either a geek or married." Or both! (Extra bonus points: I'm working from home tonight too!) My wife is playing Super Tux (and knows who Tux is) because she's already finished Knights of the Old Republic I & II. And I have the last of the New Jedi Order Star Wars books that I'll finish reading tomorrow. Maybe it's cool to be a geek, maybe not -- but either way, it sure is a lot of fun! Many of our friends walk in and see an Item of Geek Paraphenalia (like the star wars books) and suddenly realize that we are, perhaps, just a little geeky. Then we all play a game of Cranium and have a great time. Geeky? Sure! Are we happy? Yup! Do I care if it's cool? Not really.
The "Image" of being a geek is now "Cool".
I remember back when I was in High School there were a lot of kids wearing the latest skateboarding fashions. Now I feel the way I did then - "I got the crap kicked out of me for being who I was, and now someone else is popular pretending to be me. WTF?"
What if the mains were going geekstream? Chickens be damned, I say!
Although I do have to admit, for those of us guys who only are attracted to geek girls...this is certainly bringing in some fresh blood. The funny thing is, while they want to pretend to be like us, they don't really want to be us. They don't have the same interests that we do, they just have an interest in our subculture. Original geeks flocked together because of their geeky interests, these people are flocking to us now because of the media attention.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
- say "fuck it", go for an MBA, and maybe write Open Source code in her spare time
- go country shopping... very possibly, start by looking for foriegn institutions of higher learning
The "mainstreaming of geeks" is basically pop culture adjusting to the idea of "geeks" making serious money... just in time to catch the tail end of the trend. "Geek chic" is bullshit, at the end of the day, it's about making a living.Tech Public Policy stuff
"This might be because of two definitions of the word geek. One is the socially bad one, of a some smart, but socially annoying guy hiding in his parents basement."
All nerds who live in their parents basements who have hot girlfriends disagree with you!
I know guys who still live with their parents simply because it makes no financial sense to live on their own, it's just North american cultures obsession with 'independence' that stigmatizes someone still living with their parents. Many people do simply because it is the most rational thing to do, not to mention many of those nerds may be *looking after their parents*. In japan and in other cultures living with your parents is considered very normal, not to mention the huge surplus of money you save and have to spend on what you want not giving it over to your profiteering landlord.
Sure it's nice to be independent. People go ahead and live on their own and fork out that money to their landlord, meanwhile the nerds are enjoying their new HDTV and Xbox 360, while the other guy is considering having to make the choice of one or the other. The basement nerd stigma is ridiculous, these people are still human beings (I can see the jokes coming).
I wear the badge of geek proudly, as;
A geek is a guy who has everything going for him, but he's just too young. By contrast, a nerd will be a nerd all of his life.
- John Hughes, film director
Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home!
I am not one to knock the trades
You know, a skilled tradesman these days will often make more than an IT worker, because there is such a shortage. Six figures, at times. In the north east, anyway.
-Stu
1) I hear people talk about building PCs the way they used to talk about tweaking their hot rods in the 50's and 60's. Heck - I just put together an AMD X2 4400+ with 4 gigs on an ASUS motherboard and can have a 'normal' conversation about it with pretty much anyone. My brother, the most non-technical person I can think of (he is a salesman) asked me "What kind of case did you put it in?". Geek has gone mainstream.
2) A college professor I know from a local user group says that 'typing speed has become macho'. That is, once a thing used to measure secretary pools is now used as bragging rights among teen boys in the context of who can type more words while fragging their opponent in an FPS.
Geeks went mainstream several years ago, when instead of being the character that was picked on, they became either the hero of the film (Jurassic Park, Independence Day), or the character you empathise with (Napolean Dynamite, Office Space, or heck - even Revenge of the Nerds).
-db
Are geeks still being called horrible names in schools? Are they still being beaten up and ridiculed? Do they still have to fear for their safety on buses, in locker rooms, and on their way home from school?
If so, geeks have not gone mainstream.
With spending like this, exactly what are "conservatives" conserving?