The Prodigy Puzzle

theodp writes "Once neglected, the NY Times reports that America's smartest children have become the beneficiaries of a well-organized effort to recognize their gifts and develop their talent. Programs like those offered by the Davidson Institute, run by Bob and Jan Davidson of Math and Reading Blaster fame, have sprung up to nurture the intellectual development of profoundly intelligent young people. But do we know how to identify the child whose brilliance might change the world? And do we really want to?"

Comments

The children will ask themselves

[vijayiyer]

When children say things like "This is boring" or "Will I learn anything this year in school?", their needs should be accommodated. It seems criminal, yet all too often such children's pleas simply go ignored.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[MarkRose]

I was one of those gifted kids (nothing exceptional, just precocious). I found school itself rather accommodating. For the most part, I was either giving more challenging work or simply challenged myself. The real issues I had were dealing with peers. I simply could not relate to anyone my age as they were all interested in mentally unstimulating things. Of course, I have adjusted in my adult years and now get along with just about anyone, but I wish I had had more like me growing up. Finding things ridiculously easy did have its effects. Until I went on to post secondary education, I had a great deal of hubris. Not having needed any studying skills for the very relaxed pace in high school, I was quickly blown by by those who high school was geared for. Of course, I could have done the work, but didn't. I am not blaming the system, but I think the system could use adjustment. Smart kids are definitely left out.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[mattwarden]

If a super smart kid can't figure out a project of their own, how smart are they?

If that's the logic we're using, why are they in school at all? If they can't develop their own lesson plans, how smart are they?

The point is: no matter how apt someone is, the ability to succeed at a task is limited by that person's experience. That's why we have teachers who have gone through the education system and then learned how to re-teach what they learned those 12 years. They can draw on that experience, plus direct teaching experience as their career continues.

To me it's a little like math classes: you never really know what you're doing in a class until you get two or three classes beyond it. Likewise, a child can't be expected to both learn material and piece it into the bigger picture, most of which has not been exposed yet.

You might think I'm taking your comment too far, and I probably am. My point is just that the child would benefit much more from guidance on those projects. After all, maybe the student projects were "REALLY REALLY stupid" because the students were never given a hint about what makes a good project.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[Kafka_Canada]

For the most part, I was either giving more challenging work or simply challenged myself.

It's a shame those challenges didn't include English grammar. ;)

Re:The children will ask themselves

[droptone]

It isn't a matter of the kids being unable to find projects to "entertain themselves", because they will surely do that. It is a matter of using the child's interest in learning/education and guiding them. Before you can learn anything in subjects like physics or math you need to know what to learn, because each step builds off of the previous steps. This is where, I feel, the school systems/teachers need to step in. If the child is catching onto basic math quickly, do not tell the child to sit down and wait for the other kids to finish. You are punishing them for being good at something. You don't need to neglect the others kids, if you make sure the exceptional children are mentally stimulated. I don't expect a child to know what he/she needs to learn. Sure, learning on your own is fine for certain subjects (and god knows plenty of people have done just that, e.g. Srinivasa Ramanujan). That does not mean all can do that. You really shouldn't be fatalistic about education, especially if you want any results at all.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[fafalone]

You really, really don't understand how different the minds of exceptionally intelligent people work. I'm not talking about the "gifted" people way down there in the 125-140 IQ range, and the article isn't either. First of all people in the 99.9th percentile and better (145+) typically have a range of other mental problems, most famously in the social skills area. Coming up with good ideas for projects and entertaining yourself have very very little to do with intelligence. I have an IQ of 151, and thanks to the public education system, even in the gifted program, I lost all will to learn anything outside of the few topics that are extremely interesting to me, none of which I had any exposure to academically until college since even the gifted programs are aimed to the lowest common denominator, which is the 125-135 people, who aren't too bright. I don't get straight As. The problem in college is, topics that don't interest us still require learning of simple facts, which we are not necessarily motivated to exert the effort to learn.
Being a genius does not imply being a good student, and vice versa.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[norton_I]

A few comments: learning to come up with ideas is the hardest that people can do. Among physics PhDs (a reasonablly intelligent bunch, on average) it is typically to get 12-14 years of training after high school before you are ready to be a professor (or other PI) and come up with your own research ideas. Even exceptionally bright kids will be hard pressed to come up with a complete project that they can do in their free time. In order to cultivate their talents, they need adults to help guide them. Second, most of their time is spent in classes which they are not permitted to leave or ignore even if they had something to do. Their time outside of classes must be divided between whatever extra projects they might be doing and sports, social activities, and family interaction, all of which are also important.

I personally found ways to entertain myself throught grade school which mostly involved reading books in class, which landed me in both the behavior modification program and the gifted and talented program (I think the only student in both).

Finally, while even the smartest kid will learn things in their mundane classes, it is still boring to master they days lesson in 10 minutes and have to sit around doing boring excercises while waiting for the other students to figure it out.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[MarkRose]

It's a shame those challenges didn't include English grammar. ;)

Yeah, I noticed giving/given after I submitted my post. Really though, it was just an attempt to related to the average Slashdotter. Surely you can relate.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[EnronHaliburton2004]

I have an IQ of 151, and thanks to the public education system, even in the gifted program, I lost all will to learn anything outside of the few topics that are extremely interesting to me,

Or maybe you're just fishing for excuses, and are a little too attached to the idea of you being an unappreciated genius? Learning requires effort, and sometimes you need to work harder to learn stuff outside your own interest. Even the boring, simple facts. I had to take classes that I hated because it led me towards a goal that I wanted.

I mean no disrespect, but you can't pin all your problems on someone else. It seems like you like feeling sorry for yourself. I went to PUBLIC school K-12. In PUBLIC high school my IQ was 145. My school was not exceptional. I never got straight-As. People teased me because I was smart. I did fine because I found my own motivation and did other stuff outside school.

Now I have a wife, kids, home, career and make 6 figures doing something that I mostly enjoy. I quit my old job on my own terms and start a new job next month.

Yes-- school could have been much better and productive, but I'm happy I went to public school rather then some isolated elitist school for the new Reich. I got REAL experience.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[EEBaum]

The problem is the all-or-none way that "gifted" programs are run. You are declared uber-smart and placed in an uber-smart class, proclaimed average and placed in an average class, or labeled a moron and placed in special ed. Because, of course, there are only 3 tiers of ability, and they apply across the board.

This leads to both isolation of people at each level from the people at other levels, and boredom some of the time at all levels. Someone may be really good at one topic and awful at another, but the classes are taught at just one of the three levels. Rather than giving you something for further enrichment, teachers seem more likely to give you something "to keep you busy while everyone else catches up."

Also, including people generally pigeonholed at different ones of these artificial levels tends to be better for all. A "special ed" person who is included in a "normal" class will learn how to be around "normal" people, and the "normal" people will learn the material better by helping the "special ed" person along.

It seems that how much a person learns in school has been quantified to "how many bucketloads of facts you can remember." People in gifted programs are given bucketloads more, people in special ed bucketloads less. Never mind that this tends to have little bearing later in life. The people in the harder classes just become more adept at spewing smart-sounding BS.

/Dropped honors for regular english 2 years into H.S., not because it was too hard, but because it included countless hours of random busy work that wasn't worth the time.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[HooliganIntellectual]

Well some of us are smart enough to understand that IQ tests are only good for measuring somebody's ability to take a specific type of test. Throwing around your IQ on Slashdot is pretty funny. So you are good at taking tests. Some of us understand that intelligence is something more complicated than a test score.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[toddbu]

I've yet to take a class that actually challenges me

I spent a year teaching in college, and I have to say that one of the most difficult things to do is pick a good target when teaching. If you teach to the top 10% then the rest of the class suffers, and the same is true when you teach to the bottom 10%. The problem is greatest at the entry level, where you have everyone from the student who thinks that maybe they'd like to learn how to program a computer all the way up to the kids who have been coding since they were ten years old and know at least six computer languages. My solution, which some might criticize, was to target something around the top 25%. My goal was to keep the class exciting for those who understood the material, and to use those students who picked up the material quickly to help the others along. To some degree it worked, but I also failed nearly 1/3 of the students in my very first class. I suspect that most of them never had the heart for it anyway, but you always wonder about those few students who may have succeeded had the class not been so tough.

When you spend 12 years doing something that is neither interesting nor challenging to you, yeah, you tend to just stop caring.

Or maybe you just got lazy. At the end of the day, there are plenty of things that a kid can do to keep themselves occupied. In math class, I used to go to the end of the book and do problems that I knew we'd never get to in class. Then I'd visit the teacher after class to verify my answers. It was a great way for me to send the message that I was bored. It never changed anything, and after a while I also became lazy, but I really could have kept myself challenged if I wanted. When I was teaching I always used my assignments as a "minimum" for my students. I'd say something like "Here's what I want you to do, but if you do more then that's great. I'll look over the code, but you don't get any extra credit. In fact, if you screw up the original assignment then your grade will go down. I want you to do more because you want to, for the pure enjoyment." I often had students take me up on the offer, and I think that they benefited from the exercise. Often, I think recognition of work that's well done is more of an incentive to a student than getting a good grade.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[19thNervousBreakdown]

Is this a troll?

Look, unless you have some other mental deficiencies, your 151 IQ should be nothing but a boon to you. Social skills are something that is just as readily learned as riding a horse. Just because it's not hard science doesn't mean you can't apply your brain to it. And your excuse about "losing the will to learn" and not wanting to memorize facts is just a cop-out. If you're such a genius, figure out a way to make memorization easy. Sure, it's mind-numbing, but if you're a genius you'll realize that a 4.0 GPA has a good chance of getting you a free ride through college and a good job afterward, instead of years of student loans and shitty jobs. The X number of crap hours you put into memorizing shit you don't care about is well worth the increase in the odds that things will pay off.

I'm sure there's plenty of people out there with IQ's up in your range that have no problem with either social skills or motivation. I may not be a 151, but I have tested as high as 146, can pick up new concepts so quick it scares people, and am still fun at a bar and have no problem getting laid. And shit, I moved around so much until 5th grade I was pretty much a poster-child for maladjusted socially stunted kids everywhere. Take your big-ass brain and apply it to real life, and stop making excuses. Learning how to deal with people is not some magically different subject that's impossible for smart people to figure out. Hearing crap like that is what kept me a socially retarded little fuckhead until halfway through high school.

Most people would love to have an excuse like yours. "I'm too smart to deal with normal people and normal subjects." Do you have any idea what a dickhead that makes you sound like? Parents love to shove that down your throat because it makes them feel special. Teachers love to shove it down your throat because you're not threatening if you're some idiot savant freak instead of just being way smarter than them and able to see through their bullshit. Some genius who applies their intelligence to social skills and reading people is a teacher's worst nightmare, unless you turn the charm on full blast and make them like you. You know what though? If someone likes you, they'll never think you're a genius, at best they'll think you're really smart.

Stop with the BS excuses. Even if you do actually have some kind of deficiency, with your IQ you should at least be able to pull off normal. Try it, you'll have more fun.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[AuMatar]

Or maybe you just got lazy.

You hit it in one. I know where the guy's coming from. I did the same finish in my sleep job in grade school, high school. Hell, I was famous for not going to any classes my senior year of college. And still being able to tutor my classmates on the subjects better than some of the profs. The problem in all that is I learned nothing in life takes effort. I'm extremely lazy, and procrastinate everything, getting by at the last minute because I'm that good.

Is this school's fault? While they might have done things to prevent it, no. The fault is mine. I'm the lazy one, I'm the procrastinating one. The OP needs to admit the same thing to himself, and then decide wether to fix it or not. If he's happier the way he is fine, but stop blaming other people for his problems.

Re:The children will ask themselves

[Anonymous Coward]

Coming up with good ideas for projects and entertaining yourself have very very little to do with intelligence. I have an IQ of 151, and thanks to the public education system, even in the gifted program, I lost all will to learn anything outside of the few topics that are extremely interesting to me, none of which I had any exposure to academically until college since even the gifted programs are aimed to the lowest common denominator, which is the 125-135 people, who aren't too bright.

Wow, that borders on arrogantly condescending, but as I don't think you meant to be, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. :-)

Here's a thought, though - consider that perhaps you're not really a genius. My IQ has been measured at 156 and 160, the only two times I've been formally tested (30 minute free tests on the internet don't count). And while I know I'm smart, a natural problem solver, one very clever dude - I know that I'm not a genius.

As different as I am from most other people, I'm more like than dislike them. To me, true genius is manifested by remarkable originality and insight into something - anything, could be physics or math or music or science or even pseudoscience like psychology :-). I'm not talking about savants, who are profoundly deficient in all other areas.

I think genius starts a hell of a lot higher than 145. The 99.9th percentile isn't all that special; you're still talking about 1 in 1000, or two at the high school I went to, or millions of people worldwide. You and I are smart, but we're still a couple standard deviations short of the genius bit of the bell curve.

I don't get straight As. The problem in college is, topics that don't interest us still require learning of simple facts, which we are not necessarily motivated to exert the effort to learn. Being a genius does not imply being a good student, and vice versa.

Speak for yourself. I hated organic chemistry, most of my "general education" requirements ... and yet I still was able to motivate myself to do well in them, because I was mature enough to realize that I needed a high gpa in order to have a strong application for medical school. And here I am, years later, done with school and happy in every way with my life.

It's possible to be a lazy, undisciplined genius. You're not even that, though. You're a lazy, undisciplined pretty-smart guy who thinks his relatively high IQ makes him a genius and justifies his laziness. Quit making exuses for your lack of motivation.

You're not a genius. Get over yourself.

Brilliant kids have different goals.

[MsWillow]

Back in my youth, every year every kid took the Iowa test. Eventually, my grade school district used those test results to start a program for gifted kids. They took the top-scoring 3 percent of all kids in the district into this class. Both I, and my younger sister, made the cut.

My IQ tested out about 165-ish, until I got multiple sclerosis. Now it's down to just 148. Frustrating loss.

Did my intelligence change the world? Nope. I never wanted to change the world. I just wanted to be left alone to tinker with computers and gemstones. I rather suspect many other brilliant kids will share those ambitions. BTW, my brilliant sister is now an RN. No world-changer there, either.

Re:Brilliant kids have different goals.

[Pantero Blanco]

Hear, hear.

When I was a kid, people asked me if I wanted to become "the next Bill Gates". Most seemed to think that money or power was my end goal in life.

While there are bright kids that seek that, I'd say the majority of them would rather pursue interests in some field of study that appeals to them. Most of them don't have the disposition that they'd need in the business or political world, because 1: they don't like to screw people over and 2: they aren't willing to compromise their ideals. Knowledge for knowledge's sake, good for goodness' sake.

And do we really want to?

[shmlco]

"But do we know how to identify the child whose brilliance might change the world? And do we really want to?"

Do we know how to identify all of them? No. But better to identify the ones we can, and give them every advantage we can, rather than simply running them through a system that, to them, would proceed at a glacial pace.

Re:And do we really want to?

[nonlnear]

I don't care how smart your kid is they're GOING to learn something in their "boring" classes. Otherwise just get the exams and see how well they do.

You clearly don't have a clue what you're talking about. True, everybody is going to learn something in the mainstream classes, but what?

I'm sure I speak for many "above average intelligence" people when I say the only thing I learned in school was that hard work is pointless, my peers are dullards, and I am a freak of nature.

If you have a clue about socialization processes, you'd realize that smart kids will be more "normal" if you let them interact with as many of their intellectual equals as possible. After all, it's these people with whom social interraction is the most stimulating.

Re:And do we really want to?

[thedave]

Well, you see class, you click this underlined word that says "NY Times", and your browser will display a page from the New York Times. If you want to go back to Slashdot, and see the flame war, click that arrow button. Not the one that points right, but the one that points left.

Now, I am going to this with the link that says "http://www.imaluser.com/". Look! The browser now shows us the Luser page.

Now, let's all try clicking on "SourceForge" and see what happens.

For tonight's homework, I want you to click on 4000 addresses, and click the back button to go back to your original page. Turn in your browser history at the beginning of class.
Tomorrow, we're gonna talk about the "Forward" button.

For most of us we got the idea at the first example. The rest was excruciating.

That's what arithmetic was to me.

I had it from the first class. It was just clear to me. I had basic addition on day 1. Carrying and multi-digit math, 1 day. Multiplication and division, after the first example.

But, we did hundreds of problems under the premise of a solid foundation.

Long division and multiplication were the worst though. We were expected to show our work, when you could just look at the problem and give the correct answer.

So, instead I read books. I even read an encyclopedia (because I was right beside it, and I could sneak them out). I got in a lot of trouble in class because I never had any idea what was going on. I always finished my schoolwork in 1/10th the time of my class mates, and basically wasted a 5 out of 6 elementary school years waiting for the slow ones to finish reading, or working math problems, or getting that a-ha look on their face.

And, the excuse parents, teachers, counselors and psychiatrists always gave was, "The extra repetition and explanation will give you a solid foundation."

The truth is the extra repetition is just extra repetition if you don't need it.

Extra repetition and detail is great if you are struggling with the basics, and need to reinforce the pattern of the work in your head. Or, if you get hung up on the basic ideas. Or, if you're still sounding out the words in your head. But, once you get it, and you can do 100 repetitions without error, or read 50 pages an hour and understand the content, more repetition is just torture, and it drives the joy out of learning.

Perhaps needless, mind-numbing, detail and repetition are good training for board meetings, or political debates. But, they are not good for productivity and above all they are not good for learning.

I believe that if you can prove proficiency and efficiency in a subject, you should be able to move on.

Neglect?

[mattwarden]

Once neglected, the NY Times reports that...

If you ask me, the Times asked for it with all that required registration crap.

It's about time.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm posting anon so no one can claim I'm bragging. My IQ was pegged at 176 when I was 5. This was enough to get me a scholarship to a private school. By the time I was 8, I'd not done well enough in the private school to keep the scholarship and transferred to publich school, which was no better, despite scoring 188 on another IQ test. Why? Because despite the better curriculum, there was still the cookie-cutter, assembly-line, mass-production mentality of teaching: "All kids are the same, churn them through the machine, no one needs special treatment." And that's not true. Really smart kids need special attention just like kids with learning disabilities or mental handicaps. Later in my school career, I did manage to find some teachers who recognized different kids perform differently, and with some adjustment, I wound up with 100+% scores at year's end.

With the proper attention paid to these smart kids' needs, we can help their brilliance flourish, and we WILL find ourselves in a better world for it. I knwo my life would have been significantly different had the proper resources been spent on my development. Not every kid grows up with two rich parents who can spend the amount of time/money to tailor an academic curriculum to their kids.

Hell, in general the US could use a major overhaul of the educational system. It's way too focused on conformity and process than on results.

Re:It's about time.

[adrianmonk]

Hell, in general the US could use a major overhaul of the educational system. It's way too focused on conformity and process than on results.

Well, I hate to break it to you, but conformity and "proper" socialization are primary goals of the public schools. They may even be a higher priority than learning.

I hope I don't sound like the type wears a tinfoil hat to block and/or magnify my brain waves, but I really do think that is what the schools are set up to do. And for what it's worth, it's not an entirely bad thing to include some of that in your goals as a school. Society will work better if kids who beat up other kids learn they'll be punished, if people are taught to show up on time and be respectful to others (not just those in authority), if they're encouraged to be organized and dress neatly and all that. The problem happens when learning goes out the window in favor of all those other goals.

Its not the smart kids that change the world

[ryg0r]

IMO, its not the smart kids. Its the kids that are motivated and put in the effort into doing something.

Sure, there is a certain amount of smarts required for those nifty inventions, those startling revalations and those 'hot damn why didn't I think of that' moments, but more often then not its about having the motivation. My sister who isn't too bright and barely grasps the concept of shared printers, got a UAI of 99.3, and was working 2 jobs, while studying at Uni. Me on the other hand, prefered to read slashdot and ended up working as telemarketer for a couple of months.

Motivation is what changes the world. Attitude is central to survival, not always intelligence.

Riiight.

[Chowderbags]

How long until every parent asks why little Johnny or little Mary isn't in the "gifted" program. Surely they are the smartest in their class. Why does it seem like we hear about some sort of drive for the gifted every few years, but then it amounts to nothing? I'd bet that it's simply that people are unwilling to tell parents that their kid doesn't know jack, if only because of the lawyers.

I wish I had been in something that would've challenged me when I was younger, rather than simply being bored to tears after either already knowing things or figuring them out after 30 seconds. Yes, it's a shame that smart kids are still relegated to the same level of classes as the below-average kids, but can you really blame school districts for not wanting to go out on a limb and classify students? How many lawsuits would that bring up?

Instead we get education that suits neither the brightest nor the dimmest, nor pretty much anyone for that matter. We just get simple, boiled down cookie cutter lessons for everyone. No wonder public education sucks.

Do we want to?

[PIPBoy3000]

Is the implication that the next Doctor Evil might be out there among the prodigy? Kill the smart ones first I say!

Re:It is not IQ

[blincoln]

It is a good thing we have ritalin to fix them.

I have AD(H)D, and I take Concerta (time-release Ritalin) because it lets me focus on things long enough to actually get them done. It hasn't made me less creative, or less odd, just less flakey.

I'm an adult, and I never tried it when I was a kid. But I wish I'd had the opportunity to, because I know I would have done a lot better in school. It's what let me focus enough to work with math, finally =).

Leave them to their jobs as patent clerks.

[nick_davison]

But do we know how to identify the child whose brilliance might change the world?

We've been identifying those we think of as brilliant and world changing for centuries. We've also been laughing at those who think of themselves as brilliant or world changing and telling them to go back to the patent office or selling their lousy paintings and hanging out in Munich's beer halls.

This implies:

1) What we see as brilliant or world changing (whether world changing is good or bad) often isn't. What we don't understand and therefore, in our arrogance, can't identify as brilliance often is.

2) Ever notice how the truly brilliant ones are the ones who faced adversity? The ones who make a real difference seem to do so because they've learned to fight damn hard. The ones we tell are geniuses tend to expect things to be handed to them, are obsessed with their own genius, and rarely seem to really do anything that truly amazing - as opposed to simply being pretty successful and massively bipolar.

Given the second, perhaps the best thing we can do is not identify those poor kids? Adversity seems to harden the amazing ones; over attention seems to lessen them.

Advantage?

[vhold]

I think the major problem with this kind of thinking is that gifted programs generally are mostly just trying to take up more of a kid's time. They basically just seem to give extra homework, and are maybe advanced by a year or so in terms of what they are studying.

I don't know anybody who's public school 'gifted program' gave them what they really needed, self expression. Smart kids generally will give that to themselves, but gifted programs, in my opinion, actually stifle their ability to do so by trying to fill up all their time with academic busywork, as if somehow rigid structure is going to make them smarter.

Intelligence is next to nothing without creativity. The benefits of being a couple years ahead of your peers academically diminish greatly as you age. Missing out on the freetime of youth is something very difficult to make up for.

Re:smartest-kids-read-slashdot

[itwerx]

I've heard more intelligent and original discussion over trucker band cb radio.
I've got an uncle who was a trucker for 40 years and his IQ is off the charts...
      Then again you probably wouldn't have heard much from him on the CB, he always said he liked trucking because it was the only job where 99% of the time he didn't have to talk to anybody! :)

Re:as someone lumped with the prodigies for awhile

[RembrandtX]

I second your theory on this .. I was tested several times in a G.E. program when I was young, and was given an I.Q. that I am always embarrised to share in mixed company, lets just say its a signifigant number.

That out of the way, I SWEAR I have gotten dumber as I have gotten older.

First there were girls,
then money,
then 'advancing my career'.

With each step on society's ladder, i've shed IQ points like water off a duck.

I recently had a kid, He seems pretty bright, and thus will probably bring be down to a nice society average I.Q. in record time :)

Smart people, simple jobs.

[TapeCutter]

Your Uncle is in good company. Einstien was working as a patent clerk because he couldn't find a University that would take him. Getting a formal education and a "good job" has a lot more to do with persistence than IQ. Also there are many differing opinions as to what a "good job" actually is. If your Uncle enjoyed his 40yrs of driving he is not only smart but wise too.

"Genius" and high IQ are different animals

[jgrabyan]

Preface: The profession for which I am currently receiving training (Ph.D in Neuropsychology; look it up) involves the measurement of cognitive functioning; the assumption that there is some meaning inherent to these sorts of tests is part of my bias. Also, I'll be refering to intelligence as defined by the Western world. Different cultures have different ideas of what constitutes an "intelligent" individual. What many in this discussion fail to realize is that genius and IQ are two very different things. In addition, the way IQ is measured is very important for this discussion. "Genius" is a social construct. Genius is defined as one who has significant acumen in a certain area, while simultaneously being prolific in their participation in that discipline. Einstein is properly labeled as a genius because of the amount of significant work he published in 1905, NOT because his IQ score was 180 or some such arbitrary number. Currently, it would be very inappropriate if a psychometrician were to label someone as a "genius" based solely on their test scores. IQ is a number, supposedly measuring overall intellectual ability. The Weschler Intelligence Scale for Children III (WISC-III) is the most effective measure we have for measuring intelligence in children. HOWEVER, it has been repeatedly shown that the accuracy of this test breaks down past the fourth standard deviation in the upper range; that is, anything past 160. What I'm trying to get across is that genius is a label given by society, while a high IQ is something that is earned by scoring well on a test. Someone who is a genius need not have a high IQ, as IQ measures very specific things, and one can be a genius without excelling in those areas. Likewise, an individual with a very superior IQ need not be a genius; the main character from "Good Will Hunting" spent his time as a janitor in the beginning of the movie (if memory serves), and thus would not be considered a genius at that time. Jon