Slashdot Mirror
Outsourcing to Rural America
andy753421 writes "Wired is running an article about 'Rural Sourcing, an IT company that outsources not to India or Mexico, but rural America.' The company targets IT workers in rural location due to lower costs of living, 'The company charges $35 to $50 per hour for IT expertise, which may cost around $100 in New York City. While this is no match for outsourcing rates in India, clients benefit from local accents and similar time zones -- not to mention the absence of stigma sometimes attached to farming jobs out to foreign countries.' The article also points out several other innovative attempts at outsourcing such as Lakota Express and Seacode, which was previously covered on slashdot."
I for one welcome outsourcing to others in our country not over seas.
There are places on the fringe of major cities where a lot of intelligent, IT-inclined people hang their hats. Suburban areas probably have a lot of young minds that are willing and able to adapt to the ever-changing world of IT. Much better to 'source there than a foriegn country IMHO.
I know, deep inside me, there's a Linux nut just waiting to be let out.
This isn't sufficient motivation for US firms to rural-source, and neither are local accents or convenient time zones. The reason the programmer makes $100 in NYC is that they need to be there physically, to interface with a broader team, client, management, etc... If a job can be sourced to someone in a small town in America, 99% of the time it can be sourced to someone in India, for pennies on the dollar.
I'm all for taking advantage of hiring in small town America (I live in Indiana for the record), and quite frankly not having to deal with insane traffic, pollution, and outrageous housing prices is very nice.
But I think this firm might want to first invest in a website that looks like it was designed by more than a 16 year old with a "Learn HTML in 21 days!" book.
But that's just me, thinking people base opinions of companies off of how their website looks.
ce n'est pas un Sig.
All jokes aside from the horrible english that americans sometimes use, I (and many people I know) have had it with trying to communicate with people whose first language is not english. They may have had the crash course in english, but it's still hard to understand.
It's my understanding that one of the benefits of buying Dell stuff from the business unit (maybe only large bus) is that the tech support speaks real english. Maybe people are learning that sometimes a lower price is not all that it's cracked up to be.
eric
Well, I live in North Central Wisconsin an consider myself somewhat talented. Heck, my closest neighbor is 1/4 mile away. I think you'll find there has been a lot of migration back to the interior of the US from the Coasts of tech folks. I can charge a third of what I did in New England for the same standard of living. Better communications infrastructure makes living in high crime/cost/noise/polution areas no longer necissary. I can do my job just as well from anywhere, so why not someplace I'd rather be?
Pessimists.net - as if life wasn't depressing enough.
I don't get why more companies don't do this. In small towns, you can pay people a lot less and still keep them really happy. When their house only costs $30000, you don't have to pay them $80000 a year to allow them to live comfortably. Also, it would allow more people to live in small towns. The only reason that many people live in cities is because of access to more jobs. I think if people had just as many opportunities to jobs while living in small towns, then they would live there.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
The other nice thing about outsourcing to rural America is that, if you are the type that doesn't look busy because you get it done right the first time (or you just really kick gluteous maximus at multi-tasking), you can hold down two jobs on a 50 hour per week schedule. Of course, it depends on what type of outsourced job you have. Or, if you are more sane, you can do your one job in less than 40 hours a week and enjoy your nice, big house with a few acres out in wherever. Despite the stereotypes, not all of rural America is full of bigotted hicks, and things are on the whole getting better even where there are bigotted hicks. Well, except Oklahoma and Central Pennsylvania. I have no hope for either of them anytime this century. Although, if people living in big cities who are only there because they like the kind of work they are doing can move back, maybe things will improve even more.
Similar to the upcoming US election results
It's great to know that there are still a few groups out there that are "safe" to hate and make crude jokes about. Way to go, moderators!
Dark Reflection
For those on low/middle incomes, the parent poster's rules certainly apply.
People are being hoodwinked about globalization. It's a mad race for the bottom, with only a very small number of winners (i.e those that already have plenty of internationally-mobile money).
In the future, you can be a slave for some corporation or government (what's the difference?) or be a super-wealthy player. The age of fairness and democracy is over guys.
I feel we're hurtling back to Plutocracy the excesses of the Roman Empire, and the US is leading the way.
Comedy that picks on the powerless and reinforces and justifies the status quo is worthless. Comedy that challenges the empowered is a valid social tool. It's the difference between standing up to a bully, and picking on a weakling.
Is that so hard to understand?
Why is it considered wrong to stereotype and degrade anyone except Southern Americans? You pick any race or geographic group of people and say anything wrong about them and half of Slashdot will be clamoring for your head, but not in this case.
You're just a prejudiced as any hate group in history.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Not sure what you know about the real world but $35/hr goes a pretty long way outside of places like New York City and the state of California. Believe it or not, we don't have to pay $400,000 to get a box house with 1200sq ft. Things really are that much cheaper. It depends on personal preference of course, but I'd rather be sitting on 2 acres of land in a 3500sq ft beautiful house and telecommute than in a small New York apartment with a window looking out at another apartment. Also it's bigoted and naive to think that because somebody chooses not to live in a 'wonderful' place like New York City (uck) that they are just dumb hicks or incapable of doing an IT job.
Not all jobs in IT are pounding on a keyboard producing code. Many (if not most) telecommuting jobs require a lot of communication via phone and other methods and people in India for the most part are not up to snuff. There are some (probably the better paid) that speak English decently but the accents and the vocabulary are difficult to overcome in any job that requires a lot of interpesonal communication.
If cost of living is half then earning 1/3rd as much might work out. Between being in a lower tax bracket and having lower cost of living you might end up with nearly as much discretionary income. I know when I looked at moving to California from Ohio I figured I would have to make at LEAST $120K just to break even with my $50K/year here, and that was before housing prices went insane. I have a 3BR 1200 sq ft ranch on 1 acre, I paid $140K, in California if it was even available it would cost over a million! Don't assume that people are stupid just because they chose a different lifestyle than your own, we all make choices in life, it's not everyone priority to see as many zero's on their paycheck as possible.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Which brings me to my next point, if these guys cost 1/3rd of the price it brings the question who actually wants to earn one third what they could in life? Practically nobody even if cost of living is cheaper.
This simply isn't true. There are plenty of people that are willing to work for less money if the money they get will both go further and let them live somewhere they prefer.
I DO think that a lot of these consultants will probably end up being a little older though. A kid right out of college is probably more willing and more likely to prefer to live in the big city. There are a lot of benefits to living in the "middle of it" when you are young, unattached & don't have many expenses. But a few years on when that kid gets married, has a kid (or two, three... more?) that moving someplace away from the big coastal cities will start to have a lot of appeal for them. Especially if they already owned a (small) home and can also cash out of the high-cost housing market and upgrade while also get completely out of debt moving to a lower-cost market that has a small-town atmosphere that they think is more conducive to raising children.
I'm an Irish American Catholic. Cromwell and the Brits oppressed my ancestors' asses pretty well Back in the Day. Then of course there was that whole anti-Catholic/'No Irish Need Apply' thing here in America for the longest time. Can I be an oppressed minority defended religiously -- sorry, ardently -- by the Politically Correct Media? Oh, Please, C'mon!! What do I have to do to get in the club? Start a blog? Refuse to wear a necktie?
Or have we worked so hard at integrating ourselves into American society that it's too late to collect any of those 21st Century societal guilt-perks I keep hearing about...?
Har- I live in Ohio- Somethings to keep in mind: Find a $200,000 home in NY city and it's a 500 sq foot studio. Out here in Ohio, 200K is a 4 bedroom house with a couple baths on an acre with a good school district...
I thought about moving to Cali for a job, they would give me about a 70% raise, but I would end up in a smaller house and a much longer commute.... sheesh!
And All I Ask is a Tall Ship And a Star to Steer Her By
I still don't get why everyone in the country makes fun of the way southerners speak when there are so many screwed up dialects in this country. When you look at Massachusetts, New York, Wisconsin, Louisiana (in the south, but a different accent near New Orleans) how come the southern drawl is the only one that is worthy of ridicule? And on the point of intelligence, consider this situation:
If I were to ask, "Why can't the black man from Georgia read?" and you were to say, "I don't know, why?" examine your reaction the following explanations. If I reply "duh, I told you he was from Georgia" everyone thinks it's funny and laughs. If I reply "duh, I told you he was black" I am a horrible racist and should be shunned.
Why is making fun of someone for their place of birth any different from making fun of someone for their race? Neither can be controlled by that person.
Still, with a plan, you only get the best you can imagine. I'd always hoped for something better than that. -CP
Who the fuck are you to judge me as someone "afraid to do well?" I've lived in the D.C. area for almost 20 years. The D.C. area IS great, if you don't mind living in a high stress environment and dealing with traffic nightmares. I got sick of it and left. I'm much happier where I am and I have a MUCH better quality of life, for me. I'm not saying it's right for you, but who are you to tell me what's right for me. You don't even know me!
I've been quite successful in my career. I've had dozens of magazine articles and a book published in the field. I lived for 3 years, quite happily, on the beach in Southern Mexico, something a lot of people would give their right arm to do. So don't tell me I'm "afraid to do well." I have the balls to do what I want!
I certainly do not want to simply meet the cost of living. If that's what I have to do, then that's what I have to do. My point was that it's not a paycut for someone that already lives in a rural area. If it costs me $35,000 a year to live comfortably in my rural home town, then I surely don't need $80,000 a year salary like some people may in the big cities. Since I already live in that rural area, it's not a pay cut for me to, say, take the same position as the person making $80,000 but work for $50,000 instead.
If you look at the other side of the coin, from the perspective of the person who does live in that big city and makes $80,000, if that individual were to move to a rural community where it costs $35,000 a year to live, then taking a paycut to make $50-60k a year might not be so bad.
Having a smoking section in a public restaurant is like having a peeing section in a public swimming pool.
"I still don't get why everyone in the country makes fun of the way southerners speak when there are so many screwed up dialects in this country. When you look at Massachusetts, New York, Wisconsin, Louisiana (in the south, but a different accent near New Orleans) how come the southern drawl is the only one that is worthy of ridicule?"
Those dialects do receive ridicule (chowdah, da bearz, gah-run-tee, etc.), the difference is that it appears to be more ridicule of particular aspects of the dialect itself as opposed to the people who speak it. As for why that is, I dunno. Maybe it's because "The South" has more of a reputation for doing more backwards things (like the aforementioned incest), for being more aggressive than other parts of the nation (Don't mess with Texas, anyone?), or maybe it's just holier-than-thou snobbery. Regardless, I think it's more a desire to make "racy" humor in a PC climate - jokes about whites are fine, but don't go near another race or suddenly you're a racist bigot, so people are forced to joke about a white "race," in this case, southerners.
Frequently, people who bitch about a lack of tolerance are doing intolerable things.
Unfortunately, "better communications infrastructure" is usually lacking in rural areas. DSL is almost nonexistant unless you happen to live right next to a central office, and cable is also lacking.
The only way to get high speed net in rural areas is usually satellite, which has unbearable latency, or running a dedicated line, which is ridiculously expensive.
I wonder how tech companies are solving this problem; telecommuting from a rural area will simply suck without a good connection.
-Z
I don't think the targets of the original insult were Ted Turner types. I think the targets were poor white southerners, who will apparently be spat upon for generations to come.
And the blue state people ask, "Why can't these morons vote for us? We're so much better than them!" Jesus...
Dark Reflection
First...plumbers don't do too bad. The national average in the US is $47,000- which includes plumbers of all levels. An experienced plumber could easily be in the $80,000+ range in a large city. Second...people can't just become plumbers because it's an 'easy job.' Good plumbers have a LOT of education and experience. When a company is running pipes under a five million dollar home, or in an expensive commercial building, or safety equipment in a skyscaper, they don't just trust it to any chump. It would cost far more to come out to make a repair, than it would to have it done right the first time. And they get compensated for this. There ARE chump plumbers out there. They install sprinklers, and clear drains. Think of them as being the 'help desk' of the plumbing industry. I've shifted around between trades and offices during my working career. And the one thing that is common between the two, is that each side thinks that the other is overpaid and lazy. Tradesmen see people sitting in offices, and they think they are getting paid for doing nothing. Office workers (especially execs) look at tradesmen, and think that they are lazy, perform menial tasks, and are too dumb for anything else. Yeah...and you should hear them bitch when the air conditioning goes out. Now though, I am a deskworker...of the worst kind. I sit in a fairly dark room, programming. But when my co-workers complain about the electrician (calling him stupid..and laughing at his mullet (dude, get rid of the mullet...he's right about that)) I just wonder if any of them could do the work he is doing. And the last time we had an electrician come in, it was because one of the IT guys ordered the wrong equipment, and the server room had to be re-wired to accomodate it. You can be sure the electricians were talking shit about that.... No, we're not smarter just because we stare at screen all day...nor are we more valuable. The only part of this that makes me feel good, is that I work on an HR project. I see everyone's salaries...and the plumbers and electricians are on a very similar payscale to the IT workers. (Advertised salaries are different...but the plumbers tend to be on the higher end of their scale, because they change jobs less frequently...'Hot-Shot' IT guys move around a lot more..and are on the lower end of their particular job scale) I.T. is just the plumbing of the future.
No reason to lie.
Politics. Most Southern states are so-called "red states", so calling them "backwards" is an indirect way of calling Republicans backwards. For some reason, some people prefer to do this indirectly, rather than just calling a spade a spade and saying that Republicans are backwards. Maybe they're shy.
Also, hypocrisy. Society only considers it bad to be bigoted against recently oppressed people groups, and it turns a blind eye towards overlap between groups it's ok to be bigoted against and groups it's not ok to be bigoted against. (Some of those "backwards southerners" are women and minorities.)
Another current Ohioan & native rural Pennsylvanian chiming in...
I live in the most rural county in Ohio. Despite the large population of Amish here, we are hardly the benighted hicks that the coasters like to imagine. I have several options for DSL or cable service. The state has the best-funded libraries in the U.S., including the first ever statewide free online chat reference service. I make less now than when I lived in the city, but have a much higher standard of living due to the fact that life here is vastly more affordable.
Some of the best universities in the country are found in Ohio. Despite the same-sex-marriage amendment that got passed recently, I have found people generally to be very accepting of my sexual orientation -- in greater proportions to the people I knew when I lived in Washington, DC or Pittsburgh. There's a 100% gay-friendly church in a nearby town (half the size of the town where I live). Unlike in the city, no one here has yet stolen my pets or keyed my car or slashed my tires. There's a thriving arts center in my community with programs that rival most things I saw when I lived in cities (Washington, DC and Pittsburgh) or on visits to the coasts. I live a mere hour's drive from a world-class symphony in Cleveland, as well as a vibrant art scene.
What's more, where I live I can walk to work without fear of being attacked by random strangers or held up at gunpoint (as I was in a "nice" neighborhood in Pittsburgh). While we do have crime here, I love going for weeks at a time without hearing of a single armed robbery, murder, hate crime, arson, child abduction, breakin, elder abuse, carjacking, burglary, etc.
You can sneer about the uneducated people living in rural areas, but as someone else pointed out, judging the entire state by a few ignorant people is roughly akin to judging LA entirely by the slums. I used to work with inner-city children who were far more ignorant and uneducated (and bigoted) than the most unenlightened, unwashed farmboy I ever met.
Best of all, for the most part, people are genuinely nice to each other here, whether you're a total stranger, a brand-new neighbor, or an old friend. Yes, they poke their nose in your business, but they also help when your car breaks down on a back road in the middle of the night. That's a tradeoff I'll gladly take.
I know that rural life is not for everyone. If you're happy in the city, by all means, stay there. More work for me! But please, stop sneering at those of us who choose to live here for very good, rational reasons. And please stop assuming that the occcasional rural village idiot is representative of rural America as a whole.
How can a post be modded "overrated" or "underrated" when it hasn't been rated yet?
Politics. Most Southern states are so-called "red states", so calling them "backwards" is an indirect way of calling Republicans backwards. For some reason, some people prefer to do this indirectly, rather than just calling a spade a spade and saying that Republicans are backwards.
Hogwash. Southern (and other rural) stereotyping has been going on since long before the Southern states went Republican. For decades, the South voted mostly Democratic, and urban people still called them backwards.
The other way in which your argument falls apart is that there are plenty of Republicans who call Southerners (and other rural folk) backwards, too. Are they politically motivated? If so, just exactly how is that?
How can a post be modded "overrated" or "underrated" when it hasn't been rated yet?
Hmm... I'll bite to this one.
What is interesting is that there is a great example of this type of industry in my hometown in South Alabama.
A few years ago an outsourcing company, now known as Client Logic came in and setup what is described here as a "Rural Outsourcing" center. It has infused the local economy with good quality jobs. Several members of my family and friends work there.
As for the lower wages, in that part of the world, you can make $10 an hour and live like a person making $30 an hour elsewhere. Average price of a 2500-3000 square foot house on one to two acres is under $100,000.
There's another aspect to this. Rural folk, no matter what part of the country you're from, if treated fairly will be extremely loyal and will do whatever it takes to help out.
It is likely because we do not hear a lot of things happening [in flyover country], and things do happen on the coasts.
... after a generation of having woken up to new owners who were almost invariably from NY or LA.
This is because the coasts treat news of Midwest factory closings and the like as unimportant. The economy is crashing in the Rusty States, and the coasters not only couldn't care less, but probably find it encouraging, since such a thing only translates to short-term gains in their stock portfolios.
It's all about class war, Ace. The Midwesterners are merely on the losing side, and losers never get fair treatment from the media. Overwhelmingly, Midwesterners are now waking up to empty businesses and shuttered factories
Despite my contempt for attitudes like yours, it still isn't rational to sympathize with the Midwesterners who are turning into America's fastest growing wage-slave class. Millions of unionized workers in the Midwest could see throughout the 1990s that their gravy train was ending. Yet instead of preparing for a future of markedly lower wages, they went as a class on a gargantuan spending spree in some sort of demented race with the much-better-paid coasters. We can certainly blame the banks for urging on this orgy of spending and speculation, but ultimately (per the doctrine of personal responsibility) it falls upon each worker for shouldering luxuries while pretending they were necessities.
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
Don't fight a generalization with another generalization of your own.
It's all about class war, Ace. The Midwesterners are merely on the losing side, and losers never get fair treatment from the media.
It is about class war, most of us are losers in it, but you have totally failed to even recognize the facts of the matter.
The Midwesterners, Rural people, Red Staters, whatever you want to call them are "on" the winning side, since they continually vote for the Republican party who is the party of the wealthy elite. The fact that their choices continue to fuck them *as well as everyone else* has been obvious for decades now, but they stubbornly refuse to actually think things through before they vote.
The fact is that when Rural folk, Christian folk, and anybody who is not *extremely rich* vote Republican they are voting directly against their best interests.
This is because the coasts treat news of Midwest factory closings and the like as unimportant. The economy is crashing in the Rusty States, and the coasters not only couldn't care less, but probably find it encouraging, since such a thing only translates to short-term gains in their stock portfolios.
You are so wrong about the motivation.
Maybe, it's that we're sick of paying welfare ( tax subsidies and the like )for these people who refuse to think about their vote before casting it. Further, it's largely their votes that caused the issues they're experiencing. Further, it's been obvious that this was coming if they kept up with voting against the country's best interest and their own, so hearing them whine like little bitches about what *they fucking brought down on all of us* makes me fucking sick at this point.
Despite my contempt for attitudes like yours, it still isn't rational to sympathize with the Midwesterners who are turning into America's fastest growing wage-slave class.
Now if none of these stupid fuckers ever votes for a Republican again, then they will have demonstrated the ability to learn. Since they still support this administration, they have nobody but their own ignorant selves to blame.
Sorry, but if they can't even be bothered to think through their choices, and then refuse to take any personal responsibility for the results of their choices then they can fuck themselves. They've already fucked everybody else.
The fact that they have been living under socialism for decades and only now are learning about capitalism and still refuse to be honest about the results puts the blame squarely on them.
Turn off the talk radio for awhile.
The minimum wage raises the price of unskilled work that can be performed cheaper and more safely by a machine. (Or an illegal, these days) Minimum wage jobs tend to cluster around a few industries, chiefly restaurants and retail. You wouldn't see much inflation because people would choose other options with lower labor overhead. (Buying food and cooking at home or ordering merchandise online)
The inflation and spiraling standard of living that we have experienced over the last 30 years are a societal problem -- wages are a symptom, not a cause. We're transitioning from an urbanized industrial society into a suburbanized consumer society.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
More that we're voting against socialism. By helping small business, jobs are created. I get to work in those jobs. I could even make a business and thus jobs. Why should I vote to be taxed into oblivion and no hope for earning any money or making any(if I'm a business).
The point is that you already are living under socialism if you're in a rural area, and you're voting for the ones pissing your jobs overseas all the time whining about how you hate socialism.
Now you're getting your first real taste of capitalism and not liking it at all.
Instead of admitting your mistakes and workingg to fix things, you keep blaming your problems on those who pay your welfare.
That's the problem.
You moved your work to where you live, the other solution is to move where you live close to your work.
During most of the hitory of mankind, work was always close to home.
It was only with the advent of the car first, and long distance trains later, that we fell on this nonsensical notion that we could work in a place 100 km away as something normal.
I was doing exactly that, commuting from suburban Britain to London. 2 to 4 hours wasted every day.
I got fed up, and my solution has been to move walking distance from my office.
Best think I have done in my life.
After finishing work I have a full world of posibilities each day to spend my free time: I can go back home, relax, go out, go to the gym. Whatever. I am actually saving money in transportation and food (cooking at home is cheaper than buing ready made food or take aways).
My place is small, but so what? There are families as well where I live. All perfectly nice people. There is a bit of gang violence going on around, but guess what, it is not as much as the media always says (what a surprise).
In any case eventually economcis will bring people to their senses. A situation where people commute 2 hours, with all the wastage this implies, is completely unsustainable.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.