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Slashback: BlackBerry, Cloning, Smart Hotels

Slashback tonight brings some correction, clarifications, and updates to previous Slashdot stories, including more news from the BlackBerry case, a follow up on the South Korean Cloning pioneer, China promising a strong continuation in space exploration, a behined the scenes look at Smart Hotel technology, a change in direction for the Massachusetts OpenDocument war, and a slightly different approach to the intelligent design in schools question. Read on for the details.

BlackBerry closer to a shutdown. WebHostingGuy writes to tell us MSNBC is reporting that Research in Motion Ltd, the company who makes the BlackBerry is nearer now to a shutdown of their US mobile email service than ever due to the recent ruling handed down. From the article: "U.S. District Judge James Spencer Wednesday ruled invalid a $450 million settlement between RIM and NTP Inc., a small patent holding firm of McLean, Va., that maintains the technology behind the popular BlackBerry infringes on its patents."

Cloning pioneer admits to wrongdoing and resigns. moraes writes "The first research group to clone human embryos ran into some ethical difficulties concerning the source of the eggs - allegations were made indicating that the eggs were taken from junior research assistants. The South Korean pioneer, Hwang Woo Suk, has since resigned his official posts and apologized for lying about the sources of eggs used.."

China on the moon by 2020. IZ Reloaded writes "China will send its astronauts to the moon by 2020 according to the Deputy Commander in Chief of China's manned space flight program. Hu Shixiang said that the goal is subject to the government's funding and their ability to build a rocket with 25 tons capacity."

Behined the scenes with Cisco. molotov writes "Cisco installed the system described in the recent Slashdot article about Smart Hotel Rooms in New York City and has a great video about the technology used in a similar project for the Mandarin Oriental Hotel."

Massachusetts gives Microsoft a second chance. An anonymous reader writes "CNet is reporting that Massachusetts is considering adopting the MS Office XML format as a standard to be used to store the state's documents now that it is under review as an ECMA standard. From the article: 'The commonwealth is very pleased with Microsoft's progress in creating an open document format. If Microsoft follows through as planned, we are optimistic that Office Open XML will meet our new standards for acceptable open formats.' Microsoft still does not intend to support the OpenOffice standard." IBM also took the time to weigh in on the issue with a recent letter to Thomas Trimarco.

University sued for supporting evolution. Hikaru79 writes to tell us that two parents are suing the University of California-Berkeley based on the contents of a website aimed at educating teachers. From the article: "Jeanne and Larry Caldwell, the couple bringing the suit against the site, claim that the site delves improperly into religion. While most debates center around whether or not Intelligent Design is "religion in the classroom," the Caldwells are looking to spin it the other way."

60 of 378 comments (clear)

  1. There goes that MS Marketing Lying again. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Look, we're using a document format that abuses an open standard! That means we're using open standards too!"

    Groklaw's dissection of MS's "open format" is a lot more thorough than mine. Go read it.

    1. Re:There goes that MS Marketing Lying again. by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Funny

      It appears that politicians and bureaucrats are, after all, mental retards, because they will indeed buy into the notion that if a convicted monopolist puts the word "open" in front of some non-open "standard" (which is itself an abuse of the very notion of a standard), then everything is A-okay. I'm beginning to think that the majority of human beings are sub-standard intellects who deserve to be kicked around by the Napoleon of Redmond and his spooky, violent sidekick Steve "Stinky" Ballmer. I mean, to think that anyone could be some severely mentally challenged that they would buy into this bit of Microsoft's bullshit can only point to mental capacities hovering close to that of brain damaged squid. Such people should be put on display as examples of how retarded the average citizen is that they don't demand and physically force the removal of such an individual should they somehow find themselves in a position of responsibility, even if that position is taking a shit without some help.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  2. Blackberries? by PlayfullyClever · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Because clearly, Blackberries only exist so that your bosses boss can send you an email with a sig at the bottom that says "sent from Mr. Big's Blackberry (while rolling down the hgwy in his Z4).

    But seriously, the company I work at recently yanked all blackberry devices and replaced them with Treo 600 and treo 650's.

    the fact that you dont need any "special" software to access email and has the capability of viewing doc and excel attachments was the death spike for the blackberry here at this company.

    and honestly, the treo's have much better sounding audio for phone calls than even the latest blackberry's did.

    --
    Check out my website: Playfully Clever
    1. Re:Blackberries? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Until the recent news we were considering replacing our Treo's with blackberries. The Treo's have proven to be too fragile for use by the sales and executive staff. Drop it once, and it usually dies. The black berries are more durable in our experience. T-Mobile is our carrier and they have told us then intend to stop selling the Treo's because they get so many broken ones returned that they are losing money!

    2. Re:Blackberries? by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 2, Funny

      That's why you tell your boss that the Blackberry 5-Alarm Virus is loose, and if he sends more than five e-mails from his blackberry a day, it'll erase his inbox;-)

      --
      If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
    3. Re:Blackberries? by Zro+Point+Two · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ok, let's go off on a tangent here...

      First, common, be original. Last time there was an article about NTP and RIM I'm pretty sure there was the same comment about the BlackBerry just being something for your boss to email from while speeding down the road. And as you can see by the vast number of different sigs here on /., you don't have to have a BlackBerry to have your sig say "Sent from my BlackBerry".

      That aside, if you are referring to the fact that only execs can afford it, let's take a quick peek at prices here. I can get the newest BlackBerry (8700r) for $499 or I can get the Treo650 from the same provider for $899...hmmmm

      I use a BlackBerry 7290 for my cell phone, and it's pretty decent, I can hear the other person, they can hear me (even in noisy environments) and that's good enough for me. Have you happened to have noticed that the BlackBerry is an EMAIL device, not a phone? You cannot tell me that the Treo can do a better job at email. But the new BlackBerry sure does an amazing job at being a phone as well as an email device.

      I get an attached doc, xls, pdf, ppt, jpg, gif, txt, etc on my BlackBerry and I have no trouble opening it up and viewing it...so that can't really be considered a death spike.

      Obviously your company doesn't take security too seriously if it would rather have every employee using POP to check their email that is sent plain text over the wireless network....as apposed to having a single port open for outbound initiated connections only and full 3DES or AES encryption of messages on the wireless network.

      And "technically" you don't even need special software to use a BlackBerry for email (before you pounce, yes it is email only, not attachments or wireless synchronization) because you can use the desktop redirector.

      This brings up another point. I'm sitting on the bus, I schedule a meeting with someone, and automagically that meeting is in my calendar at work....or how about being out at a conference and getting someones email address...that contact is now synchronized wirelessly to my contacts at the office.

      So, let's see what else people will fire back with....It can't do music. Well, no, but that's what my MP3 player is for, and it sounds a hell of a lot better than ANY pda does.

      It doesn't have a camera. No, but then again it also doesn't have a crappy camera. If I need to take pictures I'm going to bring my digital camera instead of the crappy ones I can get from a cell phone or pda...have you seen the quality of most of them?

      It doesn't do video playback. That's ok, I don't like watching video on a 2.2" screen anyway....hurts my eyes.

      It doesn't have an SD slot. I'm actually up in the air on this one. Given what the BlackBerry actually does, I don't see a need for an SD card. If it did multimedia, then maybe, but then you get into SD or miniSD? What about security? etc.

      The point is that not everyone WANTS or NEEDS all the functionality that the Treo offers, and the core components that most people want/need are offered in both.

      Why the parent was modded to +4 Interesting is beyond me. Is it because one company switched from BlackBerry to Treo? Was it because of their opinion that the phone calls sounded better on the Treo? or was it the rehashed comment about Execs only using it for the Sig?

      --
      Zro . two

      "I come from Canada...they say I'm slow....eh?"
  3. Stupid NTP!!! by the_humeister · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't have respect for such patent holding companies that don't produce anything but litigation. On the other hand, if RIMM loses, I hope they have the balls to pull the government services too.

    1. Re:Stupid NTP!!! by diersing · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Agreed. How can the judicial branch strike something down but allow an exception for the other two branches of government whilst in the process screwing all the other users?

      Selective enforcement of a ruling is NOT justice (or so I have been told).

    2. Re:Stupid NTP!!! by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 2, Informative

      Don't forget that RIM sued several companies over the years, enough to get the nickname "Lawsuits in Motion" on theregister.co.uk.

      Live by the sword, die by the sword.

    3. Re:Stupid NTP!!! by Drooling+Iguana · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actually, Funny moderations don't affect Karma, which I think is pretty stupid.

      --
      ... I'm addicted to placebos
  4. RIM Fact or RIM FUD? by Scoria · · Score: 2, Interesting

    From the relevant Money article:

    RIM said in a statement that it would continue efforts to get the U.S. Supreme Court to review the case. The company also reiterated that it has prepared a software upgrade that can be used to work around the disputed patents.

    Several analysts believe that RIM is likely to avoid an injunction by settling, whatever the cost. At the moment, this all certainly makes me glad that I use a Treo.

    --
    Do you like German cars?
    1. Re:RIM Fact or RIM FUD? by Otter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      C'mon, there is not the slightest possibility that RIM is going to commit corporate suicide in the name of anti-patent martyrdom. None.

  5. China on the Moon, people dying on Earth! by garcia · · Score: 3, Insightful

    China on the moon by 2020. IZ Reloaded writes "China will send its astronauts to the moon by 2020 according to the Deputy Commander in Chief of China's manned space flight program. Hu Shixiang said that the goal is subject to the government's funding and their ability to build a rocket with 25 tons capacity."

    The Chinese have a huge population and apparently an unknown AIDS victim population that keeps growing. Some estimates are in the 10+ million range.

    China is full of amazing scientists that have been making huge advancements. Why are they pushing so hard for the space race and not for eliminating AIDS and opening their *real* numbers of infection to the world?

    I'm unimpressed with anything they do until they get their ass in gear and stop w/the human rights issues and the government coverups that go along with it. That includes ANY country, not just them.

    1. Re:China on the Moon, people dying on Earth! by Lifewish · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is a reason Chinese scientists don't protest much and that's because those who are still alive are those who kept their mouths sufficiently shut last time.

      --
      For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
    2. Re:China on the Moon, people dying on Earth! by JanneM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      China is full of amazing scientists that have been making huge advancements. Why are they pushing so hard for the space race and not for eliminating AIDS and opening their *real* numbers of infection to the world

      Um, because the research knowledge, skills and interest do not transfer well between things like celestial mechanics and materials engineering on one hand, and biomedicine and disease control on the other?

      This kind of thing always seem to crop up, and implicitly assumes that "science" is one monolithic activity within which people are essentially interchangeable. They aren't. Specific skills and talents - and personal interest, which is hugely important in develop the other two - are very different across disciplines. A really, really good physicist could perhaps become a middling plod of a physician, though their heart wouldn't be in it. More likely, they'd become a really good engineer, designing new DVD player models or Hello Kitty merchandice instead.

      Besides, there is no nation on earth without poverty, AIDS or [insert favourite physical ailment here]. What are you doing posting on slashdot when you should be working on your medical degree?

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    3. Re:China on the Moon, people dying on Earth! by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Please mod parent up. I'm so sick of whining "Why are they doing X instead of ignoring all their interests, talents, and passions and trying to cure AIDS?"

      Parent is exaclty right, this isn't like a video game where you just focus your society's scientific developments towards aids research. In real life people have different interests and goals, and not everybody sees their destiny as curing AIDS.

      And who knows what developments a quest to outerspace could unearth that might be relevant to AIDS! Remember, science and technology do not evolve in a linear fashion. Don't believe me? Just watch any of James Burke's Connections series.

      Now...if you want to make an argument about a government aiming in one direction and not another, perhaps you should be discussing their budgets for the alotted programs. Of course you run into the same issue which is that a government cannot simply devote all its resources to one endeavor. Just like any proper investment, you need to DIVERSIFY FOR MAXIMUM GAINS WITH MINIMUM RISKS.

      --
      Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
  6. space tourism will take off! by Filthysock · · Score: 4, Funny

    "Hu Shixiang said that the goal is subject to the government's funding and their ability to build a rocket with 25 tons capacity."
    Good news then, finally something that will be able to lift american space tourists :)

  7. In soviet russia by dr_labrat · · Score: 2, Interesting
    religion was illegal...
    ...and people on the whole preferred it that way because it stopped people messing with observable fact. Or lawyers.

    On the other hand they had salt mines...

    But then again if we were to send the lawyers to the salt mines, I think it would solve most of our problems...


    I shal call the new ideology Communiapitalism, or capitunism.


    Crawl before me, ye wealthy, or state funded rather-well-off.

    --
    The secret of success is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake those, you've got it made. (Marx)
    1. Re:In soviet russia by Thunderstruck · · Score: 2, Funny

      Religion was illegal... ...and people on the whole preferred it that way because it stopped people messing with observable fact. Or lawyers.

      On the other hand they had salt mines...

      But then again if we were to send the lawyers to the salt mines, I think it would solve most of our problems...


      Sure thing, and If you ever get arrested, call your doctor.

      --
      Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.
    2. Re:In soviet russia by Pembers · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In Soviet Russia, they didn't have God telling them how He'd designed the world and everything in it. Instead they had Comrade Lysenko telling them how to increase agricultural yields through methods that sounded plausible but didn't have a hope of working. It mightn't have been so bad if he didn't have the ears of Uncle Joe and the party machinery...

    3. Re:In soviet russia by Dragoonmac · · Score: 2, Funny

      The Intelligent Being chooses YOU!

      --
      Shots: A Populist Parable
  8. Re:Can't Intelligent Design and Evolution co-exist by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's nothing wrong with that belief, providing you don't try to foist it on school children as being science.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  9. Re:Can't Intelligent Design and Evolution co-exist by someone300 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I thought the problem was whether this view should be taught in science classes or not. Personally I believe it should be left for discussion in philosophy classes...

  10. You can't teach what?! by sinsofthedove · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The more heated the debates over the teaching of creationism/evolution get, the more I worry that it's actually education itself that's being threatened. The article gave a very snarky summary of the learning process - teachers teach, and hopefully the students learn - and it's that very process that's continually being challenged. If this debate leads to a massive shift in favor of homeschooling among parents who oppose the teaching of scientific theory, there will be serious problems in this country.

    Also, their argument is partially based on the fact that the site is government funded. Does this mean that eventually private institutions are going to be the only places allowed to teach without getting hassled? Schools shouldn't operate under fear of suit.

  11. Re:Can't Intelligent Design and Evolution co-exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    sure they can co-exist - one gets taught in science class the other in religion class - very simple.

    The issue here is different though - UC has a requirement that for entry you have taken classes in A, B, C and D - in this case one of these is a science class that covers certain topics including the theory of evolution and the religious schools are complaining because they decline offer those classes. UC's not turning people down, just requiring them to take make-up classes (BTW UC doesn't have any religious education requirement)

  12. Science != Religion by TrumpetPower! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh, for crying out lo--

    Look, it's simple. The only thing science and religion have in common with each other is that they're both methods people use to try to make sense of the world around us. Period, full stop, end of the matter.

    Science holds most dear that which can be objectively, repeatedly, independently verified. Religion, on the other hand...religion is nothing without faith.

    And a person with faith is one who makes conclusions about that which he has concluded is inconclusive, has knowledge about that which she knows is unknowable. Faith is not ``willful ignorance,'' but rather ``willful insanity'' or ``willful idiocy.'' Faith is a thing deserving not praise and respect, but pity and scorn.

    To equate science with religion in this context in an attempt to force their superstitious mindfuck on people is just about the most reprehensible thing I can think of--especially when you consider that these people would be dead without modern medecine, and that modern medicine wouldn't exist without that oh-so-hated cornerstone of science, the Theory of Evolution.

    </rant>

    Cheers,

    b&

    --
    All but God can prove this sentence true.
    1. Re:Science != Religion by Texodore · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Maybe you should read some M. Scott Peck. He argues that science and religion - well, spirituality - aren't that different. He argues, and correctly I believe, that people that question to the point of being agnostic or athiestic are more advanced spiritually than zombies in a church building, be them fundamentalists or progressives.

      Both are a way to make sense of the world. Conclusions from science will come and go just as do religions. A better model of the world will be developed in physics one day, the Big Bang theory may change, just as deism is in its dying throes.

    2. Re:Science != Religion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Science answers 'how'. Religion answers 'why'.

      Yes, that's somewhat broad, but I don't see why you need to call those who are religious idiots or insane. Let's not forget there are plenty of scientists out there who also happen to be religious. Just because they have faith doesn't mean they stop searching for the answer to questions.

    3. Re:Science != Religion by eosp · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Religion, n.: Absolute faith in things that are clearly false.

      Revision 1: Religion, n.: Faith in things that can't be disproven.

      As a question for thought, let's examine this situation. Imagine that 66 separate documents, which were written by 40 different authors over a period of 1500 years. Now imagine that there are no conflicts in these documents--that they have the same basic ideas. Here it is: http://www.netbible.com/

    4. Re:Science != Religion by fade-in · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Kind of funny how the comments that are pro-faith ( or at least tolerant to faith ) don't get modded up like the anti-faith comments. I thought the beef was as much about people being bigots as it was about who's "theories" stand up best in a lab... but I digress

      To me, the funniest thing about this whole debate is how nobody seems to see that science and religion don't need to be stepping on each other's toes. They provide answers to two completely different questions. Science asks "how" and religion asks "why"? What's the problem with that?

      Being a believer myself, I can understand the need some folks feel for having faith in their life. It gives us hope, resilience, and teaches us how to find happiness and peace.

      But believing doesn't mean that I can't see the value of science - I know that my life is quantifiably better because of medicine and other technologies, and I'm very thankful for those as well.

      I guess the bottom line for me is that science doesn't try to tell me how I should live my life, and relgion doesn't tell me all of the nuts and bolts of how I came to be alive. They both have their own domains, and they are both very important within their own bounds.

      Fundies trying to teach religion in a science class is just as shameful as a scientist saying that I'm deluding myself by believing in something that he/she hasn't experienced.

      --
      This sig is inappropriate in a post-9/11 world.
    5. Re:Science != Religion by MightyMartian · · Score: 2, Insightful
      This is a pretty odd claim. The only scientific theories I know of that were actually tossed out were some early views on the geological evolution of the planet. Theories are very rarely ever thrown out. They may be subsumed into another theory (as Newtonian mechanics was subsumed into Relativity), but scientific theories are such rigorous entities, and based solely on the evidence, that it's very unlikely that theories will be outright thrown out. Whatever replaces the Big Bang is still going to have to explain nucleosynthesis, red shift of distant galaxies and the CMBR. Thus whatever comes next won't so much replace Big Bang cosmology as expand it.

      In this light, science is very much a different enterprise than spirituality.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:Science != Religion by aaronl · · Score: 2, Funny

      In these cases, it is often amusing to turn to Ambrose Bierce's "Devil's Dicitonary".

      FAITH, n.
              Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

      RELIGION, n.
              A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.

              "What is your religion my son?" inquired the Archbishop of Rheims.

              "Pardon, monseigneur," replied Rochebriant; "I am ashamed of it."

              "Then why do you not become an atheist?"

              "Impossible! I should be ashamed of atheism."

              "In that case, monsieur, you should join the Protestants."

    7. Re:Science != Religion by TrumpetPower! · · Score: 2, Insightful

      jolande wrote:

      Not a single thing I listed can be proved.

      Any honest scientist will tell you that this is disturbing at some level, and would consider a proof on the matter one way or the other to be one of the greatest accomplishments of science ever. The fact that these are gaps that must (currently) be filled by faith is an embarrassment, not a point of pride.

      And that's what makes science different from religion. Science does a damn good job with the limited resources we have but will honestly evaluate the likeliness of its claims. Religion makes shit up and calls it the unquestionable Word of Some God.

      Oh, sure, there are a few religious people, like the Dalai Lama, who are excited to see science challenge their most preciously-held beliefs and who would accept being proven worng. But the vast majority of Christians, for example, are so convinced that Christ was the living incarnation of the impossible being who created Life, the Universe, and Everything that they can't even see that Jesus was no more real than Hercules, Isis, or Krishna. If you even hint otherwise, the faith blinders snap closed.

      Cheers,

      b&

      --
      All but God can prove this sentence true.
    8. Re:Science != Religion by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The only problem is that most* people don't make a rational decision about it. They just stick to what their parents believe in.

      An 8 year old child doesn't have the mental capacity to make a rational decision about what God is and whether he exists. Young minds are unable to distinguish between fact and fiction.

      Teaching children relegion from a young age is no different than teaching love for Chairman Mao. It's just like any other kind of programming: garbage in, garbage out

      *most != all

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    9. Re:Science != Religion by GlennC · · Score: 2, Funny
      I wonder why you don't expect religion to be taught in math classes.

      Geez! Don't give these loonies ideas!

      --
      Go on, citizen, stamp the vote card. R or D, your choice.
    10. Re:Science != Religion by TrumpetPower! · · Score: 4, Informative

      eosp wrote:

      As a question for thought, let's examine this situation. Imagine that 66 separate documents, which were written by 40 different authors over a period of 1500 years. Now imagine that there are no conflicts in these documents--that they have the same basic ideas. Here it is: http://www.netbible.com/

      BWAHAHAHA! BAAWA!

      Oh, my. Sorry 'bout that, but the ``no conflicts'' is just too much.

      Don't you know that Joseph had two daddies? (Matthew 1:1-17 v Luke 3:23-38)

      Perhaps you would suggest that it's Jesus's supernatural abilities that permitted him and Mary and Joseph to both flee to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-16) and to go straight home to Nazareth (Luke 2:22-40) after he was born?

      Tell me, where did Jesus go after he was baptized? Did he spend forty days in the desert fighting the Devil (Matthew 4:1-11 and Mark 1:12-13), or did he go to that wedding in Cana where he did the Bacchus trick (John 2:1-11)?

      Did Jesus come to abolish the law (Ephesians 2:13-15 and Hebrews 7:18-19) or not (Matthew 5:17-19 and Luke 16:17)?

      Who were the Apostles (Matthew 10:2 and Mark 3:16-19 v Luke 6:13-16 v Acts 1:13,26)? You know, the twelve dudes who spent the most important period of history palling around together with Jesus? Four of whom tradition says wrote most of the New Testament? I mean, you'd think that you'd be able to remember who it was you ate the Last Supper with, fer chrissake....

      Did Jesus remain stoically silent at his trial (Matthew 27:11-14), or did he wow the crowd with his eloquence (John 18:33-37)?

      What were Jesus's last words? (Matthew 27:46-50 and Mark 15:34-37 v Luke 23:46 v John 19:30)

      Then, when you get to the resurrection and the ascension, the contradictions are laughable. No two gospels can agree on much of anything, big or small. How was the tomb guarded? Who were the women who went there? When did they go? Where was the stone? Who else was at the tomb? Where did the actual resurrection take place? And the ascension, where and when? And why wouldn't Matthew think to even mention it?

      Do yourself a favor and stop drinking the kookaid. The Bible doesn't even pretend to be anything but a Paul Bunyan story. Talking snakes? Walking on water? Thousands of dead people roaming the streets--yet escaping notice until the gospels were written down a century later? Give me a break.

      Shit, for that matter, the gospels themselves don't even pretend to be authoritative or eyewitness accounts. Even the first four verses of Luke make clear that the person writing this all down is getting it from the people who got it from the eyewitnesses; in modern language, that's what's called, ``hearsay.''

      Still don't believe me? Then why are all the gospels written as third-person omniscient narratives? Why don't they even once say something like, ``And then I saw Jesus ascend to heaven with mine own eyes''? How could the disciples possibly know what Jesus said and did while they were asleep, or while he was fighting the devil in the desert, or anything else like that? If Jesus told them, why didn't they say, ``And then Jesus told me that, while we slept, he said such-and-such.''

      You're all grown up, now. Long past time to stop believing in Jesus Claus and the Easter Christ.

      Cheers,

      b&

      --
      All but God can prove this sentence true.
    11. Re:Science != Religion by Planesdragon · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You're kidding me, right?

      Let's ignore for a moment anything that isn't an aspect of the extant world -- so, no "historial theories" like the discovery of Troy. And we'll let the computers count.
      1. Humors - the idea that our bodies are controlled by four distinct fluids, whose proportions to each other determine our health and general character. Earlier theories about how the heart worked focused around this one. The pre-modern practice of bloodletting was tied directly to this one.
      2. Eugenics - specificially, the sub-theory that pretty white folk are superior to ugly non-white folk.
      3. Columbus's theory on the size of the planet. (No one else wanted to go not because they thought the world was flat, but beause Columbus undershot the estimated size of the world by about 50%)
      4. Life on the Moon: "From the Earth to the Moon" was closer to Science Fiction than Science Fantasy
      5. Hollow Earth: Once a rather well-respected theory, as recently as the 20th century still considered a plausible position.
      6. Infinite Divisibility: There was a time when the concept of both atoms and cells was unheard of in scientific discussion. If you just kept cutting something, you would keep on getting smaller and smaller things of generally the same nature as the larger things.
      7. Bad Air: A theory that disease was caused by the aroma of swamps, graves, illenss, and other forms of decay. Can be considered a variant of Humors.
      8. Atomic Holocaust: Before Truman gave the OK to test the first atomic bomb, there was a scientific theory that such a detonation would ignigte the helium in the atmosphere and destroy all life on Earth.
      9. Spontaneous Genesis: My favorite dead-theory (the debate over Intelligent Design is really between I.D. and S.G., if you go back far enough). Rather than having all creatures under the sun born from like creatures, scientific minds once held that life sprang naturally fron an environment -- a frog would spring from a swamp, for example. (Frogs are actually a good test for this, as if you don't realize that tadpoles are baby frogs you don't have any baby Frogs.)
      10. Merchantilism: A theory about human behavior is still a scientific theory, and the idea that a nation's economic health is best measured by the gold in its coffers took a long time in dying.
      11. Alchemy: The granddaddy of all debunked theories. At the time of the dawn of science, all learning was in the form of Alchemy -- its mystic and purposefully cryptic overtones hid the foundations of what became chemistry, but those foundations were wrapped up in a theory of how things worked that was fundamentally different than even early medieval chemistry.
      12. Homosexuality as a mental illness: Medicine is also a science.
      13. Freud's picture of the Psyche: While Freud was the pioneer of his field, his actual theories have been largely discarded. Even those that still practice Freudian psychoanalysis generally use different theories to guide in their interpretations.
  13. Re:Can't Intelligent Design and Evolution co-exist by CyricZ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's wrong because you're just making up fantasy to try to appease religious fanatics.

    Scientists shouldn't try to appease. They should do nothing more than try to understand nature via the devising of theories, and then using observation and experimentation to back up said theories.

    Sure, you can concoct some story about some intelligent designer designing evolution. But that doesn't change the fact that there's no basis to such claims.

    --
    Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
  14. Being designing the evolution. by DrYak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yes, and this entity is called "LAWS OF PHYSICS".

    Stupid jokes appart : No. It's not possible, because evolution is about understanding the mecanism which made todays deversified life-form (even in your exemple, science is used to understand how the designer did design. In a phylosophical way, modern science is patiently and minutiously dissecting deities). Like everything else in science, it's about finding good models to understand and predict.
    And Intelligent design is by defition (by the definition of its proponent) is something that CANNOT be understood and SHOULDN'T be falsifiable (the whole "designer has planted dinosaur fossils to fool us" part and other "noodly appendages"). It's "don't ask questions and just believe, if our explanation doesn't seem understandable it's the designers fault". That's why ID cannot be considered as science.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  15. Re:Someone needs to go to the moon by tsotha · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Someone needs to go to the moon, eh? Why? That's the question NASA couldn't answer in 1973, and that's the question they can't answer now. I'd rather see my tax money go into something that had some chance of being usefull, like the space elevator or solar power satellites.

  16. Re:Can't Intelligent Design and Evolution co-exist by Silver222 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Bullshit. Show a biologist new evidence, and if the prevailing theory doesn't fit, it changes.

    Show a religious person evidence of any kind that contradicts their faith, and the faith doesn't change. After all, virtue from a religious standpoint is believing the unbelievable.

    --
    "It's not a war on drugs, it's a war on personal freedom. Keep that in mind at all times." Bill Hicks
  17. Re:Someone needs to go to the moon by WallaceAndGromit · · Score: 2, Funny

    For crying out loud... we've already been to the moon!

    --
    Name: Mr. Anon E Mouse; SSN: 555-55-5555
  18. Re:Can't Intelligent Design and Evolution co-exist by M0b1u5 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sorry, ID is most definitely NOT a hypothesis. A Hypothesis can be falsified - whereas the CONCEPT or IDEA of ID can't be falsified, so it quite definitely does not get the dignity of being called a hypothesis. It's a crackpot belief - nothing more. Please don't get me started about the "I'm entitled to my belief" thing because it gets long... The crux of the statement is that you have an entitlement. Unfortunately, every true entitlement also means a corresponding duty. The right to life for example, has a corresponding duty on everyone else not to kill you. If there is no duty, then there can be no entitlement. So, strictly speaking, you are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to express your opinion - be it true or false - but you do not have an entitlement to believe in something which is not true.

    --
    How many escape pods are there? "NONE,SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
  19. 1+1=2 by fermion · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Most teach that 1+1=2, that phenomem require a cause, and that even if the cause is unknown, the cause is natural origin, not the arbitrary whim of supernatural being. There is a matter of faith in all this. We have faith that the laws of physics have been in effect since the t=0 that some would call the big bang, and will be in effect until such a time the universe might disintegrate. We also have faith that the laws of physics work uniformly throughout the universe. The articles of faiths are called assumptions, and are as often ubiquitous as 1+1=2.

    Science may someday become a religion. Science may sometimes hunker down behind it assumptions, basking in the booty that it's greed and prejudice has gained, arguing that others are profiting immorally while it'w own priests are sitting in palaces, wearing funny hats, eating scrumptious meals, handing down edicts, while the rest of world starves and die becuase protective devices and medicines are prohibited due to vague holy sciprt, but that has not happened yet.

    What has happened is that science has the metacognition to understand that the dangers lie in the assumptions. Scientists dare each other to prove that the constants are constant. They dare each other to come up with wilder hypothosis, and then destroy each other in the process of proving it.The holy wars are bloodless fueds posited through the journals, not barbaric spats on involving noose, or fire, or rape. The vested interests can be unseated with a simple allegation of impropriety. All work is open to public, not hidden behind doors that never see an opposing opinion.

    Now, i am not implying that all is perfect, but sciences subversion of religion is deeper than religion. if one believes in natural cause and effect, then one cannot believe that god destroyed new orleans for being a city of sin. One cannot believe that god sent AIDS to kill the infidels of sub saharan africa. One cannot believe that one or two or a few people have a holy authority to dominate the rest of the world. One cannot believe that killing people who look different of believe different from you will result in your ascent to the promised land.

    So, all this is not about evolution. Evolution is applied science, biololgy. Useful, and part of cause and effect, but only important as a stepping stone. This is about various groups of people ability to say I am better because I believe in this piece of writing or this creed. This is about someone saying I have the right to impose my will on other people and damage other people, or discriminate against other people, because I believe that god has given me that right. And if I have to kill people, then god has given me that right as well.

    Church, unfortuntaly in many cases, has become the last holdout to a civilized society. Nowhere else can one legally hire on the basis of color or belief, caste out on the basis of belief, and get away with hate speech. The evolution debate is one of the last gasps in a long war perpetuated by those who profit off discrimination and hate. Many more will be hurt because those who are willing to kill for profit are vanquished.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:1+1=2 by the_humeister · · Score: 5, Funny

      I thought 1+1=10

    2. Re:1+1=2 by benjamindees · · Score: 4, Insightful

      if one believes in natural cause and effect, then one cannot believe that god destroyed new orleans for being a city of sin. One cannot believe that god sent AIDS to kill the infidels of sub saharan africa. One cannot believe that one or two or a few people have a holy authority to dominate the rest of the world. One cannot believe that killing people who look different of believe different from you will result in your ascent to the promised land.

      Sure you can. Just depends on what you believe the original "cause" is. Somehow I don't think there is even yet a theory of an ultimate "natural" cause.

      Church, unfortuntaly in many cases, has become the last holdout to a civilized society. Nowhere else can one legally hire on the basis of color or belief, caste out on the basis of belief, and get away with hate speech. The evolution debate is one of the last gasps in a long war perpetuated by those who profit off discrimination and hate. Many more will be hurt because those who are willing to kill for profit are vanquished.

      Now listen to you. Who's "imposing their will on other people" now? Who's casting their arguments in terms of good versus evil? You want the freedom to propagate your speech, on the public dime no less, yet you would deny the same right to others based on your arbitrary determination of what is "hateful"?

      You believe taking money from the public in order to fund an agenda with which you happen to agree is "civilized". And those who are in opposition to your agenda, in fact, who are being targeted by it, disagree. Why should my government support either of you via my taxes?

      --
      "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
    3. Re:1+1=2 by Turbs · · Score: 3, Funny

      Science may someday become a religion.

      Scientology?

    4. Re:1+1=2 by marcosdumay · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just to clarify things a bit...

      Nobody never said that you should belive that the uneverse, or life or anything else has a complete explanation. What we want you to do is to try to explain it, what is a completelly different beast. And we also have some nice explanation to encorage you, and they work! But are not complete. If you go into any science, you'll find several people that are awsomed by the fact that we can explain something, what is not a trivial thing.

      Science don't belive blindly on cause and effect. Stuff ceassed being so simple at the XX century if you don't know. Science tries to fit what we see on models, almost all those models are somehow aleatory now.

      This is not so important for your argument, but, if you define t = 0 as the start of time, as you seem to do, we can't explain things since t = 0. We have no idea about what happened at t = 0. We don't even know for sure if there is any sense on talking about t = 0. As far as I know, we can explain what happened since somewhen near t = 1e-50s, and can see what happened since somewhen near t = 1e5s (near 1 day). So, everything between 1e-50s and 1e5s is all guesswork, and you shouldn't take it as a fact.

      It seems that somebody has to take a look at metaphysics...

  20. Re:Can't Intelligent Design and Evolution co-exist by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Science isn't simply a search, it is a well-defined set of methodologies. Telling kids the holes in theories is one thing, but trying to argue that nebulous designers of unknown origin and unknown powers can be parked in a problematic part of a theory is, in fact, teaching them something that is counter to science. That all theories have problems is not debatable, but are you willing to put a disclaimer on a physics textbook "The theory of gravity has some problems due to the fact that currently no accepted and verifiable quantum theory exists. Some people believe that angels push balls down to Earth."?

    Evolution is one of the best supported theories we have, particularly in light of the major studies of the molecular data in the last twenty years. It cannot explain everything and debate still circles around some areas, but are you actually saying that that is reason to call the theory into question?

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  21. Re:Can't Intelligent Design and Evolution co-exist by Lifewish · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apologies for the angry tone of the following post, it just got my goat somewhat.

    There has been no concrete explanation for the forming of the universe by evolutionists

    Firstly, there's no such word as "evolutionist". The correct term, if you're talking about someone who studies the scientific discipline in question, is "evolutionary biologist". If you're talking about someone who accepts evolution as the most likely explanation for our being here, the term is atheist or agnostic (depending on details).

    And thus to my second point. The theory of evolution and associated bioscience have nothing to do with how the universe started. None. Nada. Zip. They have nothing to do with stellar evolution, despite the name. They have nothing to do with how the Earth was formed. They don't even have anything to do with how life began - the correct term for that is abiogenesis and it's closer to chemistry than biology. The only reason anyone bothers to conflate the scientific discipline of evolutionary biology with this vast range of related subjects is so they can bundle them all together, slap a label saying "ATHEIST" (or, more likely, "ATHIEST") on them and then whine loudly about people teaching this pile of "dogma" in schools. Wonderful straw man there.

    Similarly, there is no such thing as Darwinism. The only people who advocate "Darwin: right or wrong?" as a valid ideological choice are those who wish to set up a false dichotomy. Which historically has been proponents of creationism or intelligent design.

    Extreme evolutionism is more fanatical than based on science, with many varied beliefs and varied "scientific" explanations for the same things.

    On the whole, these "beliefs" are falsifiable. When a conjecture as to how things work/worked is falsifiable (and preferably meets a couple of other standards), we call it a scientific hypothesis. You may have heard the term? It's that thing that Intelligent Design isn't until it demonstrates a method by which it can be falsified. In the same vein, "God did it" can never be a hypothesis if God is assumed to be infinitely powerful, as such a God can do whatever the heck he wants. Now, this may even be the way the universe works. There may be an all-powerful God who takes great pleasure in planting random dinosaur skeletons and tinkering with bacterial flagella. But that conjecture sure as hell isn't scientific and hence shouldn't be taught in a science class.

    Incidentally, there's nothing wrong with there being several different explanations for the same data. But until they're falsifiable they're called conjectures, and until we have sufficient examples of them dramatically failing to be falsified they're called hypotheses. Only once they've been through the white-hot flame of detailed scientific enquiry are they referred to as theories.

    The teachers could present, say, the top 3 worldwide views on the subject, and allow the students to choose.

    I have no problem with that. As long as they do it in a Religious Studies class. If they try to do it in a science class, they've completely misunderstood the nature of science and need to be sacked for the children's sake - it'd be like getting a Holocaust denyer to teach 20th century history. Science isn't about "choosing" what's right. It's about suggesting what might be right, then scrutinising it, poking holes in it, looking high and low for contradictory data (and there must be the potential for contradictory data, otherwise your conjecture is scientifically nihilistic) and then, when you've given up in despair of ever disproving the damn thing, accepting that it might conceivably be an accurate reflection of reality.

    Is there a single religion in the world willing to go through that baptism of fire? If it did, and passed, wouldn't that rather destroy the idea of "having faith", anyway? Answers of "No" or "Yes" respectively indicate that religions have no place in the science classroom.

    --
    For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
  22. Government Officials in DC all use Blackberries by OzPhIsH · · Score: 3, Informative

    Most people here seem to agree that this whole Blackberry fiasco is rediculous. From the article:

    "NTP, inc. a small patent holding firm of McLean, VA., that maintains the technology behind the popular blackberry infringes on their patents" This is a textbook case of the abuse occuring in our patent system. NTP doesn't make stuff. They're a patent holding firm. Did RIM steal resources and technology from NTP? NO. Was the idea of a wireless e-mail device a non-obvious one? NONo. Did NTP really create any kind of technology? No. Did RIM come up with the idea independently of NTP, and actually execute on it, actually spending the money to engineer an actual device? Yes. If NTP wants to bitch, I think they should at LEAST have a fucking PRODUCT on the market. Instead, they sit on a non-invention and decide to sue when someone else thinks of it as well, because they think they can just prfit from everyone else's hard work. This is complete bullshit.
    What REALLY gets me, is that congress practically runs on Blackberry. Just this past Thanksgiving I happened to be sitting on an airplane right next to my state senator Mitch McConnel. He's blackberrying away like the whole time from Louisville to Philadelphia. (I couldn't help but think of that American Dad episode where they steal Cheney's). But it is pretty well known that almost all of these senators and representatives are using blackberries for their wireless communications. So why aren't they speaking up about this. When a product they they use and rely on daily is threatened out of existance in the US, because of the laws that THEY have enabled, I mean, shouldn't this send some kind of wake-up call that patent law is serious FUCKED UP? I have actually read (please correct if wrong or confirm if really true) that blackberry service would shut down for everyone in the US except except for high ranking government officials, because they rely on the devices so much. Isn't this a huge double standard? Can they really say that our laws outlaw this technology for everyone except for them, because while it infringes patents, it is just too important for us political elite to not have. Obviously this should show that patent law in its current form is NOT contributing or encouraging the progression of science and useful arts.

    --

    "To lead the people, you must walk behind them"

  23. Be careful with that term "design" by Lifewish · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's true that the theory of evolution assumes that things will look undesigned (that's methodological naturalism for you). On the other hand, it does not assume that things will look undirected (the difference being that directedness does not imply a designer). The ToE in no way states that life is going to be structurally similar to the results of a hurricane passing through a junkyard, or similar bad metaphor of your choice.

    Most reasonably efficient structures, taken without context, are consistent with directedness - the structure is "directed" towards high efficiency by dint of the fact that organisms containing the inefficient versions tend to have fewer surviving offspring. About the only thing I can think of that would be consistent with design but not directedness is a message buried deep in DNA saying "God was here". So far no such signature has been found.

    Fortunately for the ToE's scientific status, there are a large number of other ways it could be falsified, and it has repeatedly failed to be disproven by any of them. Compare and contrast with the conjecture of "intelligent design".

    --
    For the love of God, please learn to spell "ridiculous"!!!
    1. Re:Be careful with that term "design" by CharlesDonHall · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Please state these ways. Every time I see a discussion on slashdot about evolution being falsifiable, it ends with really no falsification being good enough for the adherents to evolution.

      That's because there's so much evidence in favor or evolution that it would take something incredible to cancel all of it out. It's like the "Round Earth Theory". What kind of evidence would convince you that the Earth was flat?

      Anyway, here are some things that could falsify evolution: A pair of unicorns materializing inside a closed room. A lion giving birth to a griffin. Somebody finding tech notes that describe how a particular animal was designed and built. (But strictly speaking, even those wouldn't falsify evolution...we've seen evolution happening. It would just show that there's a "Special Creation" or "Intelligent Design" effect that works in parallel with evolution.)

  24. Re:The objection to Evolution by Dachannien · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sophistry.

    The real argument about creationism (or, more frequently, ID) not being science is that it doesn't conform to the scientific method. That is, scientific research generally has these steps:

    1. Observe something about the world around you
    2. Hypothesize why those observations might be so
    3. Predict what other observations the hypothesis supports
    4. Test those predictions to determine whether the hypothesis is false

    The test of creationism as science versus dogma isn't whether Rhonda Jones's personal criteria are satisfied. It's whether the scientific method is followed. As soon as ID/Creation advocates present hypotheses that can be tested scientifically (and not just tests of evolution masquerading as tests of ID/creation), they can join the scientific community. That hasn't happened yet, however, and that's why ID/creationism can't be considered science.

  25. Re:Can't Intelligent Design and Evolution co-exist by firewrought · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Show a biologist new evidence, and if the prevailing theory doesn't fit, it changes.

    In practice, this can take awhile because the biologist is human too. Sometimes it can even take a generation of researchers to displace an outmoded theory. However, your point is well taken: science has a good track record of error-correcting itself. Unlike most religious and political philosophies, science actively seeks to tests its ideas and guard itself against human cognitive error.

    For millennia, religion has promised to heal the sick, fertilize the land (or womb), and bring down destruction on the enemy. In the past 400 years a lot of those promises have come to fruition, but somehow it seems that the credit belongs to those who have conducted, funded, and leveraged scientific research. The ability of science to critique itself, to backtrack, to admit error and accommodate new information probably has something to do with its relative success in these areas.

    --
    -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
  26. Re:Can't Intelligent Design and Evolution co-exist by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 2, Funny

    wait 'til you learn about chicken functionality.

  27. Re:The objection to Evolution by LabRat · · Score: 2, Informative

    At the 1967 Wistar Institute Symposium, top-level evolutionary biologists and mathematicians met to mathematically test the idea of evolution by mutation/selection. When the super-computers finished crunching their numbers, it was obvious that the answer was 'impossible'. It was reported that when someone very cautiously (maybe even rhetorically) asked whether this meant that perhaps one should look at special creation as an option, there were loud cries of 'No!' 'No!' from the floor.

    Modern attempts at computational investigation of evolution have proven just the opposite. While the results are of course restricted to microevolution...evolution by mutation/adaption is computationally model-able, as well observable. Even distantly related bacteria have been observed exchanging dna fragments...thus undergoing a type of mutation. Viruses routinely mutate through random processes as well as exchanges of RNA. If we can observe such radical changes in the behavior and structure of such organisms within the lifespan of a human...how can creationists seriously challenge the idea of what might have been accomplished over billions of years?

    I'll be the first to say that science can't discount that something or someone ultimately created the rules by which things that we observe behave. Well, others have said it before me...so I'll be the next. Even Stephen Hawking has commented that because we, and anything we create (including ideas) are contained within this universe, that by mathematical consequence of self-referencing systems we are incapable of completely describing the universe and all of its rules and behavior. However, we *can* see and describe discrete chunks of it, and to discount such behavior after we see it (as the creationist zealots do) is stupidity at its finest.

  28. it's simple really by MrKaos · · Score: 3, Funny
    In closed discussions politicians decided open formats were required to open closed data exchanges. M$ offered a closed word format opposed to the open 'open office' format as they were closed to an open format, thus opening an opportunity for M$ to close the open exchange of data. They could not open thier closed format and they wern't open to implementing an open format so they offered a closed open format. This has closed out the open format and keeps the closed format close to the open closed document format.

    I think I might lie down now.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  29. simply not true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful


    religion was illegal... ...and people on the whole preferred it that way because it stopped people messing with observable fact. Or lawyers.


    A lack of religion did not prevent the Socialist government from distorting science in biology and agriculture.

    Just look at the current US administration. The great majority of the antiscientific stances they take are due to corporate interests. The stem cell debate and the FDA's baseless rejection of the morning after pill were the lone counter examples. Most of the administrations antiscience stances are on pollution, drugs, ... things unrelated to religion.

    But on the other hand corporate and military interests put the Bush administration in favor of science when it comes to things like nuclear power. It is the leftists that are antiscience when it comes to nuclear power, genetically modified crops, ...

    Neither side is proscience. They both have an agenda that they place above the truth and will agree or disagree with science as it suits them.

  30. Re:You sir, are an idiot. by Zro+Point+Two · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sorry, I forgot to mention that the prices I quoted were $CDN and not $USD.

    Both prices were taken from the only GSM provider here in Canada.

    I'm not too familiar with Good Technologys product, so I won't comment on that. If it can do all the same wireless stuff, then hey, that's cool.

    It's interesting that you bring up VNC, SSH, JAVA...cause I have all three loaded on my BlackBerry right now. But I'll let you keep on with your GPRS connection for VNC while I remote to my computer over EDGE (and I'll even pout when I see someone remoting in over EV-DO).

    Sure there may not be as much software for the BlackBerry as there is for any Palm OS, but there is more and more being written for it all the time. Palm OS has been out longer than the BlackBerry OS, so there's bound to be a bit more software out there. However, any piece of software that I load onto my BlackBerry is totally secure against any sort of virus or data mining. Every peice of software that runs on the BlackBerry must be digitally signed....so some script kiddie can't just write a program that'll copy my address book and email it to some spam house.

    Most of the reasons you have are probably not going to applicable to everyone to change. Sure they may be great reasons for you to change from a BlackBerry to a Treo, but they probably aren't going to be reasons for me to change. But people are going to read your reasons and because not all of them are going to be informed reasons (as the VNC, SSH, and Java ones were) they are going to rush out and get a Treo because they are misinformed. So instead of saying "The Treo is the best thing in the world for everyone" why not say "The Treo is going to be perfect for some people, whereas the BlackBerry is going to be better for others"?

    And I know I'm guilty of the same thing, but at least I try for the most part to be openminded and understand that they both have their own market and one is NOT going to be the best thing in the world for everyone.

    --
    Zro . two

    "I come from Canada...they say I'm slow....eh?"