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The Future of Outsourcing in India
aaditeshwar writes "Economist has an article on the current and projected state of outsourcing IT and other business processes to India. The biggest problem seems to be that the talent pool of skilled workers will not able to keep up. Currently there are about 700,000 people working in IT and outsourcing, which is likely to grow up to 2.3 million by 2010, but only 1.05 million new graduates will qualify from local colleges in the next 5 years leading to a shortfall of 500,000 workers! All this despite the fact that almost 2.5 million students graduate in India each year." From the article: "In IT the growth in Indian exports is expected to come both from the software market, and from 'traditional IT outsourcing'--such as the remote management of whole systems, a market now dominated by the big global IT consultancies. This is expected to rise from 8% of Indian sales now to about 30% in 2010, while software-development's share will fall from 55% to 39%. In business-process-offshoring, the big industries will remain banking and insurance. But rapid expansion is also expected in other areas, like legal services."
An friend in India was telling me about how his company outsources Software Engineering jobs to the Philippines. Maybe that's where this will go next.
I want to say this will be the case, but it's worth noting that computers just aren't affordable for the average person. The average salary is about 15-25% of an American equivalent in the IT world, and that's astronomically high for India. That may or may not get you a car.
/. and related places there aren't more people chiming in about their experience in India. I mean, some of us have been over there to train people. Collectively the IT folks in America are getting more impressions of experiences in India. Hopefully more of those impressions will come to light as discussion continue.
My point is it's not like the US where someone can sit at home, get a computer, and learn computer skills quickly. Someone in India has to take the time to learn computer skills somewhere. I'm not sure where the qualified applicants are going to come from.
Completely offtopic, I'm astounded that after all of these India posts on
"ID theft happens far more often in the US/Australia than at some foreign call/data center."
"Internet ID theft is far more prevalent"
etc.
Just so you're well armed for these responses...
Here is the tale of two data centers, one in Australia and one in India.
In Australia, a data center manager and its employees are paid more than people overseas; consider what it would cost to bribe them a year's salary. And moreover, they are under the relatively watchful eye of law enforcement. If they steal personal information, they're within the jurisdiction of people who can arrest them and put them away for a long, long time. This makes bribing these workers a lot harder.
In India, a data center manager and its employees are paid a fraction of what Australians get paid for the same work; consider what it would for the Russian Mafia or Al Qaeda to bribe them a year's salary. And moreover, they are not under the relatively watchful eye of Australian law enforcement. If they steal personal information, they're not within the jurisdiction of people who have any reason to arrest them. This makes bribing these workers a lot easier. Plus, it is easier for a bribed worker to disappear within India, or even move out of the country, than Australia. (Aside from the water surrounding Australia, India's borders aren't exactly locked up.)
Now some people will tell you that India data center workers aren't allowed to bring in potential tools for stealing data. But here's the kicker. I can memorize your name, SSN and mother's maiden name, and tell it back to you in a day. If I can do it, others can probably remember several for a long period of time. It's nothing for the mafia or Al Qaeda to train people to do that. And again, if you're paid a year's salary to cough up so many names, and you're a low paid shill in a piece of shit job, you'll do it for that kind of money. And if the data center manager gets tapped, all security is moot. You can also bribe the security workers, considering how poorly they're paid. Once they're paid off, anyone can walk in and out of there with tools to steal data.
The problem here is, the price for owning the person who has the keys to a data center's hidden treasures, is very low.
Thus, you now not only have domestic ID theft, internet theft, and dumpster diving, but you can also add offshore theft - which is far harder for your country to prosecute - to the mix.
How many straws can a camel carry on its back?
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
I don't know who modded this parent upto a 4 Interesting,but this is really stupid. Sorry!
"There's no jobs for them"
You mean there's no job for "scripters/programmers in Java/Perl/VB.NET (for fun)/gamers/hackers/*nix lovers etc" who don't have the fundamentals of computer SCIENCE right. Programming is NOT computer science. Bill Gates wants more computer SCIENCE graduates. Not programmers!
You think just because you can program you have an edge?! I can guarantee you IQ for a programmer isn't necessarily high; its like comparing plumbers and electrical engineers; Programmers PROGRAM; There are theoretical/analytical/creative avenues in computer SCIENCE that need more people to work on.
Hell, it would take anybody to take a "--- for dummies" to start off on Perl/Java. What's missing is people who know how a compiler works or the intricacies of algorithms; or the graph theory; or AI; or what not!
Computer SCIENCE is now mature enough to make distinctions between programmers and scientists just as engineers do (a la engineer and a mechanic).
Honestly I am sick and tired of people ranting about '4 year degrees' from India and incompetent or unqualified programmers/workers from India. The very same people whose ideas about India are pretty much restricted to the Taj Mahal and Bangalore in spite of the fact that they could not point out both their locations on a map of India the size of the empire state building with both places marked in 2000pt arial black.
/. you only hear about programming/IT outsourcing, but if you actually watched some 'news' instead of relying on a bunch of bloggers alone, you might realize that its not just call centers and programming shops, a whole bunch of financial analytics work, medical diagnostic work, even Hollywood animation stuff gets outsourced to India. And oh btw re: the comment about paralegals and drudge work, find out how much a paralegal with your experience makes, and you will realize the futility of your chosen vocation to provide you with a reasonable income.
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4 year degrees in India are _not_ like 2 year boot camps, they are quite focused, well designed and well executed programs, and I did not even go to an IIT or a tier 1 school in India! Education in India is quite difficult, simply because of the extreme competition every student faces from the 100 million other students, the fact that the coursework is tougher does play some part though. Parents are focused on education and education only, hence the complete insignificance of college/university level sports and/or other activities. The problem you guys face is that its too damn expensive here. My entire college expenses, including living away from home was approx. $1200. As a result almost anybody who can make the cut can afford it. So dont blame the Indian education system for the lack of a job inspite of your expensive education.
Regarding incompetent, inexperienced workers, well considering the large number of qualified workers produced, per the law of averages quite a few will be bad programmers, and stating that its an Indian issue, is not only unfair, its blatantly uninformed. The same statistics apply everywhere. The number of absolutely incompetent American/western programmers I have seen is quite unbelievable considering their '$100,000' education. At least Indian universities do not charge that much for a job screwed up (well some do, but they are usually reserved to educate Indians residing in the US).
Re: Only drudge work gets outsourced, of course on
I agree that quite a few outsourcing projects failed miserably. However AFAIK in most cases they fail not because of incompetent Indian workers but simply because the it being applied to the wrong fucking problem. You cant just use a tool/process willy-nilly because its inexpensive and expect it succeed. On the other hand I know of quite a few that succeeded in spite of that. Go figure!
The comment regarding the infrastructure issues are correct, however that does not seem to have stopped organizations from delivering. BPO providers have usually figured out ways to deal with government incompetence, and will continue to do so until the Indian govt. gets off their lazy asses and does something about it. Fortunately or unfortunately we have a _real_ multi-party democracy which means things get done slowly but when they get done they get done right.
Finally you might be surprised to know that there are Americans interning in India:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08/10/business/i
http://www.uh.edu/ednews/2005/nytimes/200508/2005
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,47435,0
So before you go off on India and Indians take step back and actually bother to find out wtf you are talking about, even if you are posting on
I think that you are outright lying, or are very misinformed.
I am Indian and I currently live in the US, but I visit there every 2 years. My uncles have very prestigous positions at Indian universities (BHU, IIT Bombay, IISC) and one family member is a principal of a local college that has a specialization in "IT". I am well informed and well connected.
I also have a degree in EE with several years of hardware/software design and I've worked "IT" for many years as well. This means I can tell first hand if someone knows what they're talking about or not.
I can tell you first hand that the Indian education system *IS NOT* what you make it out to be. The Indian pre-college education system is pretty rigourous, but it also HEAVILY emphasizes memorization and not learning. Indians are excellent at math, but the ratio of creative thinking Indians is low. Getting into colleges means years of "preparing" for various exams which emphasize memorized learning.
Engineering and problem solving requires out-of-box thinking, and that's why Indians frequently don't excel at anything non-theory.
I want to refute a few of your points:
#1 is just plain wrong.
I visited a few colleges that have IT progams and I saw people memorizing lines of code to recite them for exams. Some of these people were in CS programs and hadn't even written a program on their own. They could sure tell me if an algorithm was O(n) or O(n^2) but they couldn't tell me how to debug hardware or software.
When I tried to cajole them into learning things that weren't in their cirriculum (like learning Apache or Linux system administration), I got blank stares and poked fun at. Yeah, who'll be laughing when your Microsoft IIS server gets rooted? Think everyone with a paper degree gets a job? Not when 10 guys are competing for the same job.
If the Indian education system is so awesome, why do all the professors at the *TOP* Indian universities all have Masters + PhDs from *US* institutions?
#5
US programs are "expensive", because among other reasons, we don't live in a shithole, plain and simple. We have environmental laws, a sanitary standard of living, standards of business ethics and so on. It isn't acceptable for people here to just piss on the walls of our college, but you see that daily, even at IISc! (Yes, I saw this and even took pictures I was so blown away by it).
India has enormous health issues with a lot of resource scarcity (which will only get worse). In the US we can breath for the most part, in India, everytime I go, I have to wear a mask to keep out all the air pollution. Water pollution is just unspeakable, if you don't drink boiled, filtered water (or buy bottled water) you'll be sick for a week. Even when I was extra cautious, I managed to get sick several times my last visit.
#6
As far as outsourcing goes, the only people who aren't being slave driven are the ones doing the slave driving. I've seen first hand heard of how companies burn and churn (I've talked to people who run the companies and people who've left them). When you do someone else's dirty work, it's still dirty work.
With all the bribe taking that happens there, it's a miracle anything gets done.
Many of the Indians I know that have migrated from India to the US tell me they hate it when they go back, they now realize how bad the infrastructure there is. That infrastructure is only going to get worse.
In ten years I wonder what kind of life people in India will have. You may have jobs, but if you have no resources left, what kind of life will it be?
Many of these countries have either joined the EU or are trying to join. Their brightest IT/programmer types are then just as likely to move west, for jobs with western salaries, then to stay in their home countries.