ZNet interviews Richard Stallman

ProgressiveCynic writes "ZNet has just published an interview with Richard Stallman. Much of the interview will be review for Slashdot folks, intended to introduce ZNet's audience to the free software movement, but many interesting bits remain including a discussion on the outlawing of free software, patents as applied to literature, and this quote: 'I'm a Liberal, in US terms (not Canadian terms). I'm against fascism.'"

Comments

Interesting...

[Chaffar]

Non-free software is basically antisocial.

An interesting use of the word antisocial... Reading Stallman's comments about the Open Source movement (or the Open Source campaign as he puts it), the vocabulary and tone he uses wouldn't be out of place in Marx's Communist Manifesto. Just like Karl's work though, you can't help but agree with every argument he gives, yet you know deep down inside that it just won't work :(

Well at least I'm doing my part running Lin ^H^H^H GNU + Linux...

Re:Good Article but...

[mqduck]

You're basically right, but saying that fascism is a hyper-repressive form of capitalism is a much better summary than alot of people know. And I would say that Bush truely is a fascist, but that of course doesn't make the nation so. The thing is, there's no clear dividing line between fascism and "regular" capitalism.

Non-English speaker have a question

[johnsonlam]

Can anyone please kindly tell me, what's the different of "Liberal" between US and Canada? I live in Asia and know less about this. Thanks in advance.

Re:Non-English speaker have a question

[Anonymous Coward]

This definition has some holes in it, but "liberal" in the US means left-leaning (more centralized government, welfare state, etc), whereas liberal in Canada and Europe and most other places means the same thing as "conservative" means in the US (or used to mean anyway), including smaller government, lower taxes, less government control, pro-business, etc. It is even confusing in the US, with the "Libertarian" party conforming to strict conservative ideas -- conservative in the classical-US sense, not the current big government, pro-war definition. I should also note that the "left" in the US is much more like the "center" or even "right" in many other countries.

That's interesting - in the UK liberal means "centre", with a slight lean to the left. While conservative is "right". So in the US I thought the republicans are "right" (the equivalent of our conservatives) and the democrats are "left" (the equivalent of our old labour party, although they're pretty much "right" now). Is that correct?

RMS

[vectorian798]

When RMS came to speak here at Cal I was not too impressed. He was interesting, entertaining, but the guy seemed (this especially came out in the Q&A session at the end) like a ranting madman rather than a proper spokesman for GNU. ZD must have REALLY edited the interview's transcript to get it into the form that's been put up on the site.

I am not trying to just get points by being the odd one out here, but seriously - do you really expect the general public to accept free software let alone programmers? Given the shaky prospect of let's say...making a living, for example, I doubt it will be accepted broadly.

I agree that the FLOSS model has led to much innovation. But the story ends there - I for one, won't be spending my life without a job, contributing to free software (although I might do it as a side-hobby). The argument that one can 'modify' software or do custom jobs to make money is idiotic. Do you seriously think there is a market there? Often, people claim that (as pointed out in 'The Magic Cauldron' by ESR) over 95% of software is not for sale (so called 'custom' jobs), but it is ridiculous to expect programmers to bank on the availability of such jobs, especially because they don't get much attention. Also, how is that figure calculated? Total number of lines, discrete tasks, etc. Furthermore, most freelance work or custom applications don't pay well compared to salaried jobs.

There are strengths to OSS, as well as weaknesses. I find Linus's view of OSS much more acceptable than those of the Stallman (GNU).

Re:RMS

[MrCopilot]

When RMS came to speak here at Cal I was not too impressed. He was interesting, entertaining, but the guy seemed (this especially came out in the Q&A session at the end) like a ranting madman rather than a proper spokesman for GNU. ZD must have REALLY edited the interview's transcript to get it into the form that's been put up on the site.

RMS comes off best in print to the people who do not know him. He seems like a fanatic because he is about some things he feels are of the utmost importance. In written responses he tends to edit himself to a less madman-like rant.

I personally like a little nutjob in my geniuses. Maybe that's just self-justification though.

I agree that the FLOSS model has led to much innovation. But the story ends there -

Not a student of history, I see. Look around at the IT Landscape today. Now think back to 1980. The story is being written right now. You can be an author or a critic but you can not deny its impact. Take a cruise on over to IBM's website, Apple's, What do you see. Take a look in your devices around the house Router,TIVo, Hot Tub etc...

I for one, won't be spending my life without a job, contributing to free software (although I might do it as a side-hobby).

I for one won't either. Hobby, try model airplanes. Contribute to free software because it serves a purpose. In my case my job requires me to use tools (now OSS tools, Thank me very much) I contribute to those tools to further my productivity, and I write free software that operates electronic controls that we manufacture. And I will never go back to the OLD way. The improvements that I have seen in just 3 years in both my productivity and better OSS are astounding.

Furthermore, most freelance work or custom applications don't pay well compared to salaried jobs.

This statement leads me to believe you have never had either. Custom Apps can be expensive as hell plus don't forget those awesome support contracts. Nothing better than a Webserver running apache with custom webapps and a yearly suppport contract (unless you can only write buggy webapps.)

There are strengths to OSS, as well as weaknesses.

Hmm weakness. Lets see, weakness. Right you can't hide your bugs. You can't hide unfair practices. You cannot create proprietary formats. You can however Sleep soundly at night, and wake up a part of a community. Sometimes wacky, sometimes overly political, overzealous, down right rude, almost uniformly amazingly insightful and clever.

Re:Good Article but...

[Fred_A]

Umberto Ecco's list is a good starting point as well.

Fits well with a disturbing number of current western regimes...

Re:Take a look at this

[SolitaryMan]

Take a look at this article, based on real-world fascism study. (The link to the original study can be found there).

I can sorta agree that what article outlines is not exactly what _I_ understand as fascism too, but it confirms, that it is a rather controversial term and RMS's usage of this term is reasonable enough.

Time to move on

[FishandChips]

The roots of Linux lie a long while ago now. Isn't it about time we all moved on?

The Hairy Ranter aspects of Linux, these days, aren't a net positive. They keep Linux in the image of a previous generation. They foster the image of a cult and they politicize all discussion. This is not helpful. Folks want computer software, not an invitation to man the barricades in Paris 1968.

If these old war horses took up painting or playing the violin for a few hours a day instead of re-running yesterday's battles in black and white the world might be a happier place. And a lot more folks might be drawn into an open-minded comparison of pay-for and no-pay software. Yes, technically, it is GNU/Linux. But the world knows it as Linux. There is no turning back now.

RMS - Who will replace him?

[tqft]

Many good, bad and trollish things have been said about RMS and he has done his share of stirring (which I think is good).

But who will replace him? Nobody lives forever (unless the medical boffins crack the longevity thing).

How would you recognise the person that you want to be the lead visionary of the FSF? An idealist? A pragmatist? A software engineer? Someone with a reputation as an uber coder?

Does DVD Jon fit the bill? Too young and too "controversial"? No political rep.

Linus? Probably doesn't care enough about politics.

Bruce Schneier? On too many watch lists?

There are probably at least a million people who would be good at the job and I have no clue (cue trolls) who they might be.

By vote on a /. or other internet poll?

Paid up members of the FSF will probably decide. If you don't care for the FSF ideals this may not be a problem, if you do care but aren't a member - sorry you don't count.

Sucks doesn't it.

Or will the political visionary thing die or "fork" when RMS isn't there to be the lightning rod to cop the abuse hurtling from all directions.

Personally I wouldn't take the crap he deals with every day and the frustration at some of the idiocy in the world he deals must be enormous.

RMS wants to outlaw non-free software

[greggman]

a discussion on the outlawing of free software

If you'd actually read RMS maybe you'd know his goal is to outlaw non GPLed software.

What the facts show is that people will program for reasons other than riches; but if given a chance to make a lot of money as well, they will come to expect and demand it. Low-paying organizations do poorly in competition with high-paying ones, but they do not have to do badly if the high-paying ones are banned. RMS

Re:Pay the Toll

[linefeed0]

I should also mention that I've heard from the horse's mouth (a Microsoft engineer that spoke to my operating systems class in college) that MS knows third-party drivers cause most of their kernel crashes (at least in 2000/XP). If Linux is made by hardware vendors to rely on binary drivers, where exactly does that leave its stability advantage?

Also, yeah, that link is wrong in the above comment, it was a bug with the same symptoms but nvidia-caused, not an s/390 specific bug. Unfortunately I can't find a message discussing it on lkml because nvidia had it quietly fixed without ever admitting it was there.

What does he do for a living?

[sgant]

How does Stallman get paid? What does he do that he recieves a paycheck to you know...buy food, pay the bills...perhaps rent or a house payment? Where does his money come from?

Because it sounds like he doesn't accept money for any programming, and that's basically what he does all the time.

Does he work at a company that does something totally different than computers and computer related things? Does he work at Pier 1 or Dennys or where ever during the day and at night he programs and writes his manifestos?

I'm not trying to be a troll here, I honestly would like to know. He seems to be big on everything free as in beer AND free as in every other definition of the word. He seems to spend all his time working on free software and promoting GNU and all things GNU so how does he get compensated for all this?

Re:What does he do for a living?

[daviddennis]

I know that when I hung out at MIT, he was staff, not a professor, so I'd be very surprised to say the least if he taught any classes as another reply to your message says. From my acquiantance with him, there's no question that he was a man of principle, which is in both an admirable and a terrifying thing. I definitely would not accuse him of ever being less than genuine or willing to betray his principles.

At the time I knew him, he was rebelling against the institution of passwords that had just been introduced at MIT. He made it very well known that his password was blank, and later when they forbade blank passwords, he made sure the whole world knew what it was. In those ArpaNet days, most of the people who discovered the ArpaNet and used MIT's systems were pretty benign, but today, sadly, his stand wouldn't last 24 hours before his data was ruined by vandals. It is truly a sad world we live in.

During his formative years he was paid by MIT as a staffer. I think he was fired, or he quit over an issue of principle (probably revolving around his free software principles, but I don't know the details). However, he was allowed to continue using MIT's facilities, and I seem to remember hearing that at least for a while, he lived in the building.

At this point, I don't recognize GNU's address as being the MIT building he was long associated with. His building [warning: link in PDF] looks pretty nice, so I assume he and his organization are not doing badly financially. In fact, the 5th floor is the top of the building, which traditionally commands high rents.

I strongly suspect what's going on is that the FSF - which I believe is effectively him - gets contributions, and they pay for the office space and whatever salary he takes out of it. When he was starting out with emacs, he would charge a substantial sum (I think a few hundred dollars) for tapes. And of course the emacs manual and official documentation are still being sold.

I think he would have been more of a business success with a less rigid attitude, but he seems to be making enough money for him, and personally, even if I were a donor, I wouldn't care if he was taking a $100k+ salary from the FSF. Indeed, I hope he is and is living well, because he deserves it as an incredibly hard-working and principled individual.

Hope that helps.

D

Re:Good Article but...

[smchris]

To call it such is at the least a bit ignorant.

Does anyone care? Probably not, but I have to try.

Me too. You don't need extermination camps to be fascist. The issue was perhaps most recently arguing in the question of labeling apartheid South Africa fascist.

I quote from Ebenstein, Today's Isms, 5th ed, p. 115 (because I'm old and I took PoliSc 101 a long time ago):

"[T]he principle elements of the fascist outlook:

(1) Distrust of reason
(2) Denial of basic human equality
(3) Code of behavior based on lies and violence
(4) Government by elite
(5) Totalitarianism
(6) Racialism and imperialism
(7) Opposition to international law and order"

Discuss and contrast

Re:Good Article but...

[EvilNight]

I'm in agreement, but I'd like to point out something I think is rather important.

Fascism as we have seen it in the past is not likely to recur. We're all familiar with it, and after WWII it isn't likely to be tolerated when it appears. What is likely to happen, however, is the emergence of a different (modern, if you like) form of fascism that is not immediately recognizable as such. I don't think this has happened yet, but it is certainly a possibility.

I do think that the current political and economic climate in the USA has become more closed and dogmatic lately, which is not a good sign. I don't suppose it's any worse than the kinds of things that were happening when Nixon was in office, so calling it fascist is probably premature. It does bear watching closely, however.

Check up on how Germany became fascist sometime. The chain of events that led them into fascism is not all that dissimilar from some of our own social and political movements. We're just lucky enough to have an environment that is less tolerant of them, for now at least. Most Germans certainly weren't fascists... they simply allowed it to happen. That's the mistake we can't afford to repeat.

Eternal vigilance, and all that...

Re:Fascism?

[Lifewish]

Did a student just get visited by the feds for requestion Mao's Red Book from the university library? Did a toddler just get refused access to a plane on the basis that their name was on the ultrasecret no-fly list? Did my favourite guitar tab site just drop offline thanks to the unprecedented powers being granted to Big Business?

I wouldn't call Bush a fascist because I don't think he's bad enough for it not to be a waste of a good label, but I can see how other people could disagree.

Re:Pay the Toll

[ultranova]

Granted, I love my wireless, but not having wireless wouldn't stop me from using the computer. Having no display adapter would.

Use textmode and hack Mesa to output ASCII art ;).