I wonder if anyone still trust CHINA.
Lots of evidence shows CHINA government have the worse reputation in every category, protectionism is one of the small obstacle ahead, real businessmen will know CHINA government can interpret the law according to their direction, you're loser no matter how strong you're (e.g. Apple, New Balance).
Apple losing the court case in China, being accused "copy" a China firm's mobile phone, it's so absurd and really tell you how ridiculous the China law.
The Chinese government know nothing about freedom of speech, all of it's statement is for it's own benefit. As a Chinese live in Hong Kong, we're trying hard to achieve freedom of speech but we're already under heavy attack of all the pro-Beijing propaganda. Yet they want to stretch their hands to western world, Trying to discuss or reply to it proof futile, just ignore the annoying Chinese government.
When you know the future is dark and hopeless, and working only let you get weaker day by day, and you can't do a thing, complain is useless, no one can or will help you since the "white terror" in China.
Suicide for a large sum of money is a plan, there is no "long-term business" since everything is moving fast in China, including corruption or bureaucracy, people in western world is very hard to imagine, that's why you still talk about "long-term".
If ALL the American united and do something, US still have a hope, China can only wait for the regime's fall, all the good people inside the party was wiped out. In US, at least every 4 years people can have a vote (I do understand lot of operations behind the scene), it's all about people, I like the Lincoln's speech: of the people, by the people, for the people.
And last, want to tell you and others a plain and cruel truth: westerners are very "well treated" in China, those America born Chinese will tell you a total different story after they spend some time in China, Chinese are 3rd class citizen in China, of course 1st is the so-call leaders and westerners (or Japanese) the 2nd.
Glad to chat with you, hope you have a bright future in US.
I do have a friend live Fresno, I can understand how US media and work smoothly with the large corps or "powerful guys". US is not much better than China, but if you know how the court in China rules, and how bad the prisoner treated in prison, you may wish to enjoy the "lesser evil" in US.
At least you have a limited "speech of freedom" in US, some TV shows such as 60 mins+ still expose some absurd behavior, but in China the government did strongly suppress people try to review these kind of truth, more than 50% food and cheap products did contain harmful substance hurting people all over the world, of course Chinese themselves, and the government just agree and help to do so, those missed paying to their Boss or failed in power struggle will be shoot, no one can keep themselves free from misbehavior.
The politicians did steal money from US, but the China officials simply kills, I wish you can understand US is a frying pan but China is pure fire.
Not much we can do, but in Hong Kong we're fighting for unofficial referendum, and the last hope of US is you can cast your vote, it's still better than pick up guns to fight.
As a Chinese myself, what I can tell all the people in western countries, this is the TRUTH of China. People struggle for life, even work in a low wages, bad working conditions (not this case, Microsoft won't allow the Mice got dirt). If you know nothing about China, this is just a glimpse of the "worse capitalize communist" in the world. Human right is nothing, laws can be interpreted according to the government. Except Hong Kong and Macau Special Administration Zone have different kind of law.
The only worry is I'm too honest to say all these truth.
Sorry I'm not very good in English, I know in US or Canada college got lot of UNIX like computers, that's why people get used to it, but for non-English speaking countries, the _NIX is a great difficulty to learn though it's powerful, for most of the DEVELOPERS like you, command line seems is the "default", I don't hate command line since I start from Apple ][ and PC-DOS 2.0, but I still have difficulty learning all the _NIX things. Now I can did some HTML with notepad but I'm still unable to develop anything, even I can read very simple C.
If Linux want more users and developers, try to simplified and have more standards that people can focus on.
There's lot of developers around, but when I want serious application like "Adobe Audition" I have to stick to Mac and buy commercial like "Logic" (OSX).
Someone still argue between GUI and command line, but I like both, just depends on situation, I didn't like a 100 character command line, it's almost the length of a script, why not drag and drop? But when come to batch jobs command line serve the best... I'm using Ubuntu but I want more, Linux need to be more mature (for user) and a faster pace of application development, otherwise M$ will be conquering the market with it's strategies.
Anyone notice Linux share the same syntax of UNIX? Do you know how old UNIX is?
To start Linux even old people like me need to know some history of XENIX, UNIX, SCO, NFS... some of those things remain unformatted text base, console type (not VT100).
GUI is good, but the back is still those things, that why Mac OSX hide them all. Linux need to clean up those history and simplified those things.
I listen my vinyl music on my iPhone.
Main reason for vinyl -- before recording the audio to CD, the CDDA audio was "pre-processed", usually a simple +10db gain, to make the sound almost clip, the worsen sound was not revers-able.
I have 70% of my own song digitize by myself, with proper encoding in 48KHz, CD just let me down.
In Hong Kong, there're few laws to protect employers.
People keep changing jobs to find a better place, but it's really Utopia since all the businessman are the same - they only care for the profit, ethics not exist in the dictionary of business.
Without powerful worker union, abuse is a common scene in Hong Kong. Want to work in Hong Kong? Think twice!
Not only in US, but the whole world's large commercial organizations (you can name a few easily) treat their customers like pigs/dogs/slaves, because they neither have franchise or monopoly. For a good citizen like us have no way to against them but just tolerate.
She did a very good lesson to express our anger and show the hypocrisy of today's commercial organizations.
>>I agree that a lot of companies are doing this and I think that consumers should not reward those companies. However I do not subscribe to the idea that if everybody is guilty then nobody is guilty.
I mean: Report all or report none, report Apple and mention the other also. Don't pick Apple only.
Hi,
>>You are being a little harsh on the capitalists, especially the foreign ones. They may be doing more to protect workers than local industrialists and government.
You misunderstand, what I mean is I don't believe Steve Jobs ordered the long working hours, ethically he may be guilty but I believe he even don't know about this.
You're correct about China industrialization, what I want to note is "Chinese government fail to control over provinces' local government". Due to communist nature, it should be protect the people but history proved they're even worse than capitalist.
>>The Chinese industrialists investigate and determine that the worker violated safety rules and is therefore owed nothing. The government, in the form of local police, beat up for "peasant's" lawyer when the worker wants to take the industrialists to court.
Exactly! The desire of having a "world's factory" is greater than "human rights", I guess neither the government have a breakthrough or another revolution from the people.
>>Not Chinese, but if it counts, I'm dating a Chinese girl and have picked up enough Mandarin to say "Ni hao" [1]:-)
Nice to know you got a Chinese girlfriend, and you may speak Mandarin better than me, because I'm Cantonese:-)
>>Because they don't necessarily have such a thing (they're a newspaper), this report isn't quite hypocritical. The criticism might have been unrealistic, given that such work conditions are apparently very common, but all the same
I think it's a kind of excerpt, out of context in a bunch of abusing report in China. Sorry for my English ability, it's better to describe as unrealistic.
>>I'll even feel a sense of camaraderie with those poor souls languishing in that electronic city. I don't know if it'll stop me from buying one, but it'll certainly make me think twice.
I advise you don't even think about this, otherwise you need to back in the nature, almost everything now manufacturer in China, and I'm quite sure most of their working condition is worse than iPod factory.
>>* Overtime seems to be defined as being beyond "60 workhours" for a six-day week. That's 10 hours a day.
Some of the people in Hong Kong have the same working hours, if they're got paid and it's their own will, as Chinese say: money can drive evil
>>* They've exceeded this, meaning more than 60 work-hours, 35% of the time.
Some girls from poor village are willing to work for money, because they can't even afford to rent a room near the factory, they're willing to work in a air-conditioned factory for money and comfort
>>* They've worked sundays 25% of time. That is, in a year with 52 weeks, they're getting only 39 work-free days (minus leave, if they get it, and public holidays). This on top of the more than 12 work-hours they've worked in a day.
That's really harsh in the eyes of westeners, but some of them are not compulsory, or they don't want to lose the job, because a lot of replacement everywhere
>> * Dorms are free, but there is a housing allowance. Go figure. >> * There appears to be overtime pay, but it wasn't clear to me on whether overtime was calculated on top of the regular 8-hour-work-day, or the 10-hour-code-of-conduct-work-day. The payment of this compensation is rather haphazard; so you may or may not get paid overtime.
Actually dorms and meals included in most factory, so they can reduce the salary.
Just like us in Hong Kong, no overtime payment most of the time, if the factory owner is not too worse, you get a compensation leave.
>>In short, appears to me that the finer points raised by the original article are true. Whether they are acceptable or not is a wholly new question, and worthy of some analysis; seems to me, that minus culture and pay packages, the conditions seem to be difficult only because the workers don't have a collective bargaining power. I don't get overtime compensation in my IT/tech-consulting job, and have, on occasion, worked for more than 80 hours, but here's the fun part: - I know I can walk away from it all and go find another job with better conditions anytime.
But they can't, there's more risk for assembly line workers than an IT consultant, even I work in IT field for more than 10 years, I don't want to risk my job.
>>My question as a non-Chinese-with-a-new-found-fascination-for-Chine se-culture, therefore, is this:- we all hear about those plentiful jobs being created in the Pearl Valley and elsewhere, but how easy is it for workers to find new jobs? Or rather, with increasing prosperity in the
1) Usually that kind of long working hours is the decision of factory owner, Steve Job ethically may be guilty, but he may not even know this
2) Easy to get job, but easy to lose it also, competition everywhere
>>Chinese economy, what's stopping the job market from ironing these things out and improving work-conditions? I s
Everybody knows the China law "usually" doesn't mean anything, the Capitalist around the world build factories to torture the China workers... long working hours, bad working environment, salary below living standard, lack of proper training... as I know the recent years some improvements were made, but far behind the western standard.
Someone want Apple in trouble so they magnified Apple, but not only Apple did this, why not stop all the factories but only picky at Apple? Just like bible story in John 8-7: Whichever one of you has committed no sin may throw the first stone at her.
Hypocritical is the word to describe the man releasing this, if he got so much free time, take a look at the Lenovo, Dell, Acer, Asus... etc. Which one have the right to stone Apple?
RIAA really gone to far, today they support ROOTKITS, tomorrow they'll hire mercenaries to kill those dare to oppose them.
RIAA is evolving, maybe Bin Laden, maybe Hitler.
Slashdot Mirror
I wonder if anyone still trust CHINA. Lots of evidence shows CHINA government have the worse reputation in every category, protectionism is one of the small obstacle ahead, real businessmen will know CHINA government can interpret the law according to their direction, you're loser no matter how strong you're (e.g. Apple, New Balance). Apple losing the court case in China, being accused "copy" a China firm's mobile phone, it's so absurd and really tell you how ridiculous the China law.
Who still trying to trust China is a moron. Anything China is neither bought or stole from somewhere else.
The Chinese government know nothing about freedom of speech, all of it's statement is for it's own benefit. As a Chinese live in Hong Kong, we're trying hard to achieve freedom of speech but we're already under heavy attack of all the pro-Beijing propaganda. Yet they want to stretch their hands to western world, Trying to discuss or reply to it proof futile, just ignore the annoying Chinese government.
Out-source is the answer, talk about money and all the management/Boss will cut budget and go for lower quality.
When you know the future is dark and hopeless, and working only let you get weaker day by day, and you can't do a thing, complain is useless, no one can or will help you since the "white terror" in China. Suicide for a large sum of money is a plan, there is no "long-term business" since everything is moving fast in China, including corruption or bureaucracy, people in western world is very hard to imagine, that's why you still talk about "long-term".
If ALL the American united and do something, US still have a hope, China can only wait for the regime's fall, all the good people inside the party was wiped out. In US, at least every 4 years people can have a vote (I do understand lot of operations behind the scene), it's all about people, I like the Lincoln's speech: of the people, by the people, for the people. And last, want to tell you and others a plain and cruel truth: westerners are very "well treated" in China, those America born Chinese will tell you a total different story after they spend some time in China, Chinese are 3rd class citizen in China, of course 1st is the so-call leaders and westerners (or Japanese) the 2nd. Glad to chat with you, hope you have a bright future in US.
I do have a friend live Fresno, I can understand how US media and work smoothly with the large corps or "powerful guys". US is not much better than China, but if you know how the court in China rules, and how bad the prisoner treated in prison, you may wish to enjoy the "lesser evil" in US. At least you have a limited "speech of freedom" in US, some TV shows such as 60 mins+ still expose some absurd behavior, but in China the government did strongly suppress people try to review these kind of truth, more than 50% food and cheap products did contain harmful substance hurting people all over the world, of course Chinese themselves, and the government just agree and help to do so, those missed paying to their Boss or failed in power struggle will be shoot, no one can keep themselves free from misbehavior. The politicians did steal money from US, but the China officials simply kills, I wish you can understand US is a frying pan but China is pure fire. Not much we can do, but in Hong Kong we're fighting for unofficial referendum, and the last hope of US is you can cast your vote, it's still better than pick up guns to fight.
As a Chinese myself, what I can tell all the people in western countries, this is the TRUTH of China. People struggle for life, even work in a low wages, bad working conditions (not this case, Microsoft won't allow the Mice got dirt). If you know nothing about China, this is just a glimpse of the "worse capitalize communist" in the world. Human right is nothing, laws can be interpreted according to the government. Except Hong Kong and Macau Special Administration Zone have different kind of law. The only worry is I'm too honest to say all these truth.
Sorry I'm not very good in English, I know in US or Canada college got lot of UNIX like computers, that's why people get used to it, but for non-English speaking countries, the _NIX is a great difficulty to learn though it's powerful, for most of the DEVELOPERS like you, command line seems is the "default", I don't hate command line since I start from Apple ][ and PC-DOS 2.0, but I still have difficulty learning all the _NIX things. Now I can did some HTML with notepad but I'm still unable to develop anything, even I can read very simple C. If Linux want more users and developers, try to simplified and have more standards that people can focus on. There's lot of developers around, but when I want serious application like "Adobe Audition" I have to stick to Mac and buy commercial like "Logic" (OSX). Someone still argue between GUI and command line, but I like both, just depends on situation, I didn't like a 100 character command line, it's almost the length of a script, why not drag and drop? But when come to batch jobs command line serve the best ... I'm using Ubuntu but I want more, Linux need to be more mature (for user) and a faster pace of application development, otherwise M$ will be conquering the market with it's strategies.
Anyone notice Linux share the same syntax of UNIX? Do you know how old UNIX is? To start Linux even old people like me need to know some history of XENIX, UNIX, SCO, NFS ... some of those things remain unformatted text base, console type (not VT100).
GUI is good, but the back is still those things, that why Mac OSX hide them all. Linux need to clean up those history and simplified those things.
I listen my vinyl music on my iPhone. Main reason for vinyl -- before recording the audio to CD, the CDDA audio was "pre-processed", usually a simple +10db gain, to make the sound almost clip, the worsen sound was not revers-able. I have 70% of my own song digitize by myself, with proper encoding in 48KHz, CD just let me down.
In Hong Kong, there're few laws to protect employers. People keep changing jobs to find a better place, but it's really Utopia since all the businessman are the same - they only care for the profit, ethics not exist in the dictionary of business. Without powerful worker union, abuse is a common scene in Hong Kong. Want to work in Hong Kong? Think twice!
Not only in US, but the whole world's large commercial organizations (you can name a few easily) treat their customers like pigs/dogs/slaves, because they neither have franchise or monopoly. For a good citizen like us have no way to against them but just tolerate.
She did a very good lesson to express our anger and show the hypocrisy of today's commercial organizations.
>>I agree that a lot of companies are doing this and I think that consumers should not reward those companies. However I do not subscribe to the idea that if everybody is guilty then nobody is guilty. I mean: Report all or report none, report Apple and mention the other also. Don't pick Apple only.
Hi, >>You are being a little harsh on the capitalists, especially the foreign ones. They may be doing more to protect workers than local industrialists and government. You misunderstand, what I mean is I don't believe Steve Jobs ordered the long working hours, ethically he may be guilty but I believe he even don't know about this. You're correct about China industrialization, what I want to note is "Chinese government fail to control over provinces' local government". Due to communist nature, it should be protect the people but history proved they're even worse than capitalist. >>The Chinese industrialists investigate and determine that the worker violated safety rules and is therefore owed nothing. The government, in the form of local police, beat up for "peasant's" lawyer when the worker wants to take the industrialists to court. Exactly! The desire of having a "world's factory" is greater than "human rights", I guess neither the government have a breakthrough or another revolution from the people.
>>Not Chinese, but if it counts, I'm dating a Chinese girl and have picked up enough Mandarin to say "Ni hao" [1] :-)
:-)
Nice to know you got a Chinese girlfriend, and you may speak Mandarin better than me, because I'm Cantonese
>>Because they don't necessarily have such a thing (they're a newspaper), this report isn't quite hypocritical. The criticism might have been unrealistic, given that such work conditions are apparently very common, but all the same
I think it's a kind of excerpt, out of context in a bunch of abusing report in China. Sorry for my English ability, it's better to describe as unrealistic.
>>I'll even feel a sense of camaraderie with those poor souls languishing in that electronic city. I don't know if it'll stop me from buying one, but it'll certainly make me think twice.
I advise you don't even think about this, otherwise you need to back in the nature, almost everything now manufacturer in China, and I'm quite sure most of their working condition is worse than iPod factory.
>>* Overtime seems to be defined as being beyond "60 workhours" for a six-day week. That's 10 hours a day.
Some of the people in Hong Kong have the same working hours, if they're got paid and it's their own will, as Chinese say: money can drive evil
>>* They've exceeded this, meaning more than 60 work-hours, 35% of the time.
Some girls from poor village are willing to work for money, because they can't even afford to rent a room near the factory, they're willing to work in a air-conditioned factory for money and comfort
>>* They've worked sundays 25% of time. That is, in a year with 52 weeks, they're getting only 39 work-free days (minus leave, if they get it, and public holidays). This on top of the more than 12 work-hours they've worked in a day.
That's really harsh in the eyes of westeners, but some of them are not compulsory, or they don't want to lose the job, because a lot of replacement everywhere
>> * Dorms are free, but there is a housing allowance. Go figure.
>> * There appears to be overtime pay, but it wasn't clear to me on whether overtime was calculated on top of the regular 8-hour-work-day, or the 10-hour-code-of-conduct-work-day. The payment of this compensation is rather haphazard; so you may or may not get paid overtime.
Actually dorms and meals included in most factory, so they can reduce the salary.
Just like us in Hong Kong, no overtime payment most of the time, if the factory owner is not too worse, you get a compensation leave.
>>In short, appears to me that the finer points raised by the original article are true. Whether they are acceptable or not is a wholly new question, and worthy of some analysis; seems to me, that minus culture and pay packages, the conditions seem to be difficult only because the workers don't have a collective bargaining power. I don't get overtime compensation in my IT/tech-consulting job, and have, on occasion, worked for more than 80 hours, but here's the fun part: - I know I can walk away from it all and go find another job with better conditions anytime.
But they can't, there's more risk for assembly line workers than an IT consultant, even I work in IT field for more than 10 years, I don't want to risk my job.
>>My question as a non-Chinese-with-a-new-found-fascination-for-Chine se-culture, therefore, is this:- we all hear about those plentiful jobs being created in the Pearl Valley and elsewhere, but how easy is it for workers to find new jobs? Or rather, with increasing prosperity in the
1) Usually that kind of long working hours is the decision of factory owner, Steve Job ethically may be guilty, but he may not even know this
2) Easy to get job, but easy to lose it also, competition everywhere
>>Chinese economy, what's stopping the job market from ironing these things out and improving work-conditions? I s
Any Chinese here except me?
... long working hours, bad working environment, salary below living standard, lack of proper training ... as I know the recent years some improvements were made, but far behind the western standard.
... etc. Which one have the right to stone Apple?
Everybody knows the China law "usually" doesn't mean anything, the Capitalist around the world build factories to torture the China workers
Someone want Apple in trouble so they magnified Apple, but not only Apple did this, why not stop all the factories but only picky at Apple? Just like bible story in John 8-7: Whichever one of you has committed no sin may throw the first stone at her.
Hypocritical is the word to describe the man releasing this, if he got so much free time, take a look at the Lenovo, Dell, Acer, Asus
Thanks John Nowak, explain in detail.
Can anyone please kindly tell me, what's the different of "Liberal" between US and Canada? I live in Asia and know less about this. Thanks in advance.
RIAA really gone to far, today they support ROOTKITS, tomorrow they'll hire mercenaries to kill those dare to oppose them. RIAA is evolving, maybe Bin Laden, maybe Hitler.
You're under arrest because you suspected have the motive to "modify the firmware"!