The Feds Vacate Airwaves

value by User+956 · 2006-01-02 07:05 · Score: 4, Insightful

the government is getting ready to spend $936 million to move its radio communication to an obscure segment of the spectrum to make room for next-generation mobile tech.

Yeah, but how many billions is their currently-used chunk of spectrum worth on the open market?

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The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.

Re:value by dada21 · 2006-01-02 07:07 · Score: 4, Informative

I believe TFA says about US$2 billion, with some of it already sold. They also talk about selling more radio stations off, as well.
Re:value by User+956 · 2006-01-02 07:17 · Score: 3, Informative

I believe TFA says about US$2 billion, with some of it already sold.

That $2 billion sale they mentioned in TFA was a year ago. The sale of this spectrum won't be until at least 2009; With the rate wireless is growing (and inflation), you're looking at $7-$8 billion, easy.

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The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.

It's a good start. by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 07:06 · Score: 3, Funny

Now if only they would vacate the country...

Re:It's a good start. by User+956 · 2006-01-02 07:11 · Score: 4, Funny

Now if only they would vacate the country...

they're working on that one. Unfortunately, it will probably be after they've spent all the money.

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The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
Re:It's a good start. by dada21 · 2006-01-02 07:17 · Score: 5, Interesting

This is true -- and why I've moved entirely to a personal gold standard for currency.

In the past 15 years, they had numerous ways to spend -- direct taxes, indirect taxes, fake social security lockboxes and the worst -- currency inflation. Now that China, Russia and the Middle East are losing faith in the US dollar, they won't be able to inflate as much, right? Wrong. In March 2006, our government has decided to stop reporting the M3 Money Supply figures -- the figures that tell the world how much counterfeit money the central bank prints.

And they think this will make the dollar more stable?
Re:It's a good start. by m50d · 2006-01-02 07:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

And they think this will make the dollar more stable?
Yes. This will mean noone knows that they're stepping up production to keep the US on top because the value of the dollar is basically collapsing. As long as noone notices it's about to collapse, it doesn't collapse. That's how finance works.

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I am trolling
Re:It's a good start. by Belseth · 2006-01-02 07:54 · Score: 3, Funny

Come on, get in the spirit of the madness. For the cost of printing six trillion in hundreds we can be out of debt. If we print a couple of trillion extra we can go on a spending spree. It's the " I can't be broke I got more checks" theory of economics.

Why Sell It? by Bellum+Aeternus · 2006-01-02 07:10 · Score: 5, Interesting

Why does our government feel the need to auction off the spectrum? Why can't they just increase the amount of availble spectrum ear marked for general purpose use? The now famous WiFi uses public spectrum and is easily the most famous radio - except perhaps radio itself.

Selling the spectrum will only accomplish two things: 1) Make some rich companies richer. 2) reduce innovation because only said companies can use the newly availble spectrum.

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- I voted for Nintendo and against Bush

Re:Why Sell It? by dada21 · 2006-01-02 07:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

I agree with you. I blogged about it today, before I submitted the article to slashdot. I'd love to see a bigger experiment from the FCC on privatizing and anarchizing (sp?) airwaves to see how it works.

You'll likely see some responses here from people on how their neighbor's microwave screws with their WiFi, but I run and maintain 25 WiFi networks for friends and family and we don't have a problem with a single network. I even offer my WiFi connection free to all my neighbors and they don't even call with tech support questions.
Re:Why Sell It? by Chris+Burke · 2006-01-02 07:15 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why does our government feel the need to auction off the spectrum?

Selling the spectrum will only accomplish two things: 1) Make some rich companies richer. 2) reduce innovation because only said companies can use the newly availble spectrum.

Question, meet Answer.

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The enemies of Democracy are
Re:Why Sell It? by kbielefe · 2006-01-02 09:37 · Score: 4, Informative

WiFi does not use "public spectrum." It falls under part 15 rules and therefore uses spectrum that is allocated to licensed users, at extremely low power, with the understanding that it must not cause interference and must accept any interference. In other words, your WiFi router has no more right to transmit on that channel than your neighbor's microwave oven has.
As a licensed user of several of the WiFi channels I can transmit at 1500 watts over an entire city, if necessary to establish communication, and can interfere with any unlicensed WiFi routers on my channel with impunity. Not only that, if any of those routers are interfering with my signal, they are legally required to shut down or at least change channel.
Think that's unfair? The designers of WiFi were aware of those requirements when they first selected the frequencies. Luckily for all you unlicensed users of WiFi, most of us hams are nice guys who like WiFi for our own networks, and are excited about the availability of cheap hardware for using that part of the spectrum.

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Re:Why Sell It? by CRC'99 · 2006-01-02 12:20 · Score: 3, Interesting

WiFi does not use "public spectrum." It falls under part 15 rules and therefore uses spectrum that is allocated to licensed users, at extremely low power, with the understanding that it must not cause interference and must accept any interference. In other words, your WiFi router has no more right to transmit on that channel than your neighbor's microwave oven has.

Actually, it's under a class license, which means the devices themselves need to pass certification to be operated in that band. It is known widely as public spectrum because it is the device that is certified for mass production that anyone can go and buy.

As a licensed user of several of the WiFi channels I can transmit at 1500 watts over an entire city, if necessary to establish communication, and can interfere with any unlicensed WiFi routers on my channel with impunity. Not only that, if any of those routers are interfering with my signal, they are legally required to shut down or at least change channel.

Wrong. I think you'll find that in that part of the band, the limit is MUCH less than 1500 watts. I can't recall the exact figures, but from memory, if it's over 200W transmitter power, then you need special permission. I do believe that the 2.4Ghz section of spectrum is much lower due to the potential risks at that particular band. Your request to run this kind of power (1500W) in that area would be denied. They are also not legally required to shut down their service. You can just ask nicely. You have just as much responsibility to not cause interference as they do.

Think that's unfair? The designers of WiFi were aware of those requirements when they first selected the frequencies. Luckily for all you unlicensed users of WiFi, most of us hams are nice guys who like WiFi for our own networks, and are excited about the availability of cheap hardware for using that part of the spectrum.

Wow. Nice to know you like to blow you're own trumpet and I love the sound of breaking a power trip. WiFi users are not required to be licensed - the equipment is as mentioned earlier. Don't make it sound like you're doing people a favour here - all I see is a snobby HAM operator blowing his horn.

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9/11 radio problems not solved? by asadodetira · 2006-01-02 07:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

This move might be another step in the wrong direction. If i'm not mistaken in a NPR radio show an expert said that some current commercial frequencies would be extremely useful for emergency responders since they can reach deeper inside buildings. They attributed the misuse of airwaves to lobby of big media groups. Apparently a lot of the rescue radio communication problems detected after 9/11 have not been solved, changes can be quickly made when there's a commercial reason.

Re:9/11 radio problems not solved? by LWATCDR · 2006-01-02 07:32 · Score: 5, Interesting

I read that Sprint/NexTel is selling the IDEN network that Nextel uses to the government. The PPT "walkie talkie" system plus the nation wide network should work pretty well for "first" responders. How well does it work in buildings? I have no idea. I do know that Sprint got a nice chunk of spectrum in WiMax range in exchange for the IDEN network.

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Re:9/11 radio problems not solved? by josecanuc · 2006-01-02 08:29 · Score: 5, Informative

The problem of emergency responder and public safety radio system (non)interoperability grows out of the history of growth of the systems.

In the beginning, each agency had one or a few dedicated frequencies for communcation. The fire department might have 3 channels labeled "Primary", "Secondary", and "Tactical". Each of those would correspond to a pair of frequencies known as a "repeater pair". One frequency is the "input" to the repeater, and the other, the "output". In "idle", each radio is listening to the "output" frequency. When a fireman transmits on the radio, it transmits on the "input". The repeater listens to the input constantly. When it senses someone transmitting on the input frequency, it fires up it's transmitter on the output frequency and passes the audio from the input receiver to the output transmitter.

(Not much has changed since then)

Each agency (police, fire, waste, roads & bridges, etc.) of a city, plus county(parish), state, and federal agengies was in direct administrative control over their frequencies (an therefore channels). The fire department would apply with the FCC for a license for 3 repeater pairs, and the FCC would say, you can use pairs X, Y, and Z at no more than P Watts of power. The FCC determined this by ensuring that pairs X, Y, and Z were not used elsewhere in a geographical proximity that would likely be breached by a transmitter at the fire department's location based on RF propogation models at the given frequencies and terrain.

Now, in a bigger sense, the FCC also defined the allocation of the RF spectrum for the entire radio electromagnetic radation spectrum. Not on an individual basis, but on a functional basis. Like, 150MHz - 158MHz is allocated for public safety use, and therefore frequency pairs in that "band" would be available for individual licensing to any public safety agency (police, fire, EMS, etc.) Great amounts of spectrum are currently allocated for "federal" use. Note that not all RF use is for voice communication. Some is set aside for radioastronomy: no licenses are given to allow transmitting there, so radioastronomers can be certain that if they listen in that band, there will be less human interference than if they just picked any arbitrary frequency band to monitor.

As the technology improved and became cheaper, it became possible to utilize higher and higher frequencies. As such, whenever a band seemed "crowded", and the FCC opened up a higher band for the same purpose, it opened up a wider band. Wider bands means the same number of available channelized frequencies in the pool could be wider, and therefore carry better sound quality. Alternatively, the same quality could result with a higher count of "channels" in a band.

Public safety and city maintenance radio systems used to operate around 30MHz and 50MHz (about 10meter and 6meter wavelenths). Those gave good range -- the radio energy from the repeater and mobile radios was not attenuated by the atmosphere too much. As the frequency increases, though, the attenuation (lessening) of the signal strength by the various components of the air increases. At the same time, there is less "other" RF energy floating around from such things as the sun and lightning in storms, so the end result was to have slightly increased power requirements on transmitters and vastly increased voice quality and vastly increased equipment maintainability. Much of RF engineering has to do with the real wavelength, so as you go shorter in wavelenth, some of your filtering hardware can get smaller and more compact.

Eventually, every little city had a dozen or so frequencies allocated to various agencies within. It was a very inefficient use of the scarce resource of RF spectrum. If the fire department of Podunk, WV had 3 frequencies allocated to it, no other agency within, say, 100 miles could be allocated those frequencies. And you have to realize also that an FM-modulated voice signal has a real "bandwidth", and so you had to space out the "channels" of available frequenc

Not with their greed by Generic+Guy · 2006-01-02 07:31 · Score: 5, Insightful

today's cellular carriers will be tomorrow's next-generation broadband providers

No they won't. With the greed and unwillingness to give customers what they really want the cell carriers shown already that they'll overprice, meter, and "extra-cost" everything. No thanks.

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{ - Generic Guy - }

Non-standard uplink frequency! Grr! by O · 2006-01-02 07:36 · Score: 5, Informative

FTFA: They're going to auction off the 1710-1755 MHz spectrum in addition to the already planned 2110-2155 MHz spectrum.

UMTS: "The specific frequency bands originally defined by the UMTS standard are 1885-2025 MHz for uplink and 2110-2200 MHz for downlink."

Once again, we can't use the frequencies that the rest of the world uses, so we have to get "Americas" phones with different bands or wait for Nokia et al to release "6-band" (800, 900, 1800, 1900, Euro/Japan UMTS, Americas UMTS) phones. Goddammit!

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1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21 -- Mathematics is the Language of Nature.

Does this mean... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-01-02 07:53 · Score: 5, Funny

Does this mean that tinfoil will no longer be effective?

Great! by heatdeath · 2006-01-02 08:00 · Score: 3, Informative

Now if only they would get rid of the almost 1Ghz allocated to fixed-point communications, like satellite communications, and maritime and aeronautical navigation. I wish they would force them to use their spectrum more wisely instead of forcing something that everyone uses to be crammed into a tiny space. (Satellite should be using UWB - they have to have dishes anyway - they can afford to receive a signal that is just above the background signal strength)

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf

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Karma whore; pretty chart by michaelmalak · 2006-01-02 08:00 · Score: 5, Informative

U.S. Frequency Allocation Chart

The frequencies discussed in the article, 1710-1755 MHz and 2110-2155 MHz, can be found on the right side of the fifth bar.

Re:90 mhz ain't much by Amouth · 2006-01-02 08:06 · Score: 3, Interesting

the peoblem with that is that it is video that you are talking about.. tv is horrid when brodcast.. it needs soo much bandwith..

when you look at a 2.4ghz netowrk (say chan 6 becsue it is most common)

top = 2,448,000,000 hz
bottom = 2,426,000,000 hz
diffrence = 22,000,000 hz = 22mhz span that can be used for a 54mbit connection with a local wifi.. and done very nasty
(90/22)*54 = 220.9 mbits avaliable)
considering most cable modems are 3mbit and dsl is 1.5mb
220.9 /3 = 73.6 cable or 147.2 for dsl connection speeds per cell tower..

that is alot of free room and that is agian using a very nasty protocal..
if they clean it up and use an effecent protocal they are going to get alot of bandwith.. and if they do something like ipv6 / leap users woln't notice they are switching towers.. TV is horid when you think about the fact that it is always brodcasting to everyone and just eating up the space.. when you use it as an as needed network it is more than enough room.. because no one is going to be using max bandwith all the time everyone will take slices and use it for only a portion of the time..

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about bloody time the feds gave something back by swschrad · 2006-01-02 08:12 · Score: 3, Informative

the government controls 99% of the spectrum, useable and experimental, and this is the first time they have ever given back a single kilocycle of allocation. in the past, it has always been nonprofit, public safety, and commercial use that has been tagged for reallocations.

congratulations for finally stepping up to the plate, and many more for uncle selfish.

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if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?

Re:M0 is the money printed... by AuMatar · 2006-01-02 09:21 · Score: 3, Interesting

Except that gold has no value either. Oh, its kind of pretty, but it has no real use. If the dollar was to go hyperinflation, there's no particular reason we'd move back to gold. More likely, we'd start using Euros or other currency, just like the dollar is now defacto cash in many third world markets. If it goes so far that not even foreign bank notes are trusted, its even less likely that gold would be seen as valuable- at that point we're so FUBARed were back to barter, most likely with ammo and medicine being the most valuable items, as by that point the government has utterly collapsed.

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Re:What about the mass spectrum space above 30 GHz by jgrafton · 2006-01-02 09:47 · Score: 3, Interesting

Everything at such a high frequency will have to be line-of-site, however, as there's no hope of bouncing off the ionosphere or anything.

It could be done, yes, but it'd involve quite a high investment.

Re:about bloody time the feds gave something back by rabtech · 2006-01-02 10:29 · Score: 4, Informative

the government controls 99% of the spectrum, useable and experimental, and this is the first time they have ever given back a single kilocycle of allocation. in the past, it has always been nonprofit, public safety, and commercial use that has been tagged for reallocations.

congratulations for finally stepping up to the plate, and many more for uncle selfish.

Actually that isn't true... check the chart at http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf

The vast majority of the spectrum is non-government exclusive or shared government/non-government. Only the sections with RED under them are government-exclusive allocations.

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