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When Bugs Aren't Allowed

Coryoth writes "When you're writing software for an air traffic control system, military avionics software, or an authentication system for the NSA, the delivered code can't afford to have bugs. Praxis High Integrity Systems, who were the feature of a recent IEEE article, write exactly that kind of software. In "Correctness by Construction: A Manifesto for High-Integrity Software" developers from Praxis discuss their development method, explaining how they manage such a low defect rate, and how they can still maintain very high developer productivity rates using a more agile development method than the rigid processes usually associated with high-integrity software development."

36 of 489 comments (clear)

  1. nearly unlimited funding by demonbug · · Score: 5, Funny

    probably helps too :P

    1. Re:nearly unlimited funding by GileadGreene · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And yet the reports I've seen on Praxis claim costs and schedules the same or less than the development of software of similar complexity...

    2. Re:nearly unlimited funding by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In fact this is the whole point - Praxis manages to deliver software with several orders of magnitude less bugs than is standard in the software industry, but does so in standard industry time frames with developer productivity (over the lifecycle of the project) on par with most non-critical software houses. Praxis does charge more - about 50% above standard software daily rates - but then when you are getting the results in the same time frame with massively less bugs a paying little extra is worth it... you'll likely save money in the support and maintenance cycle!

      Jedidiah.

    3. Re:nearly unlimited funding by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, small teams help, but I think it really is worth taking a look at the tools and methods that Praxis uses because there are some remarkably good ideas in there. Take a look at SPARK Ada - the Wikipedia article has some basic examples, and Praxis provides sample chapters of a book on SPARK for download. Seriously, take a little time out of your day, sit down, and read a little about how they do what they do. There really are good ideas that go well beyond just "small teams" if you want to deliver correctly functioning code.

      Jedidiah.

    4. Re:nearly unlimited funding by SeaFox · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You can't staff a whole large application development project with the best gurus: there aren't enough out there in the world.

      And why aren't there? Geeks lament the fall of IT and Computer Science programs at institutes of higher learning, and wonder why people don't want to go into these fields. If there was demand for programmers of the caliber you mention and companies willing to pay salaries deserving of such abilities there would be more people studying towards such a position.

      But if companies are going to just throw up their hands and say "we can't hire competent people, there aren't enough of them in the world, they only doom themselves to a continued shortfall in talent, and an increase in buggy software.

      Nursing is a profession that is always looking for new people and folks who didn't make it through the four-year grind back when they were young are flocking to it because the jobs are waiting. If companies held their coders to a higher standard, they would trim some of the fat in their projects and have jobs open for people willing to do the work. The result would be more productive teams and better applications, a win-win situation.

    5. Re:nearly unlimited funding by kimba · · Score: 4, Funny

      At any rate - there's no such thing as bug free software. Never will be.

      10 PRINK "HELLO WORLD"

      Damn.

    6. Re:nearly unlimited funding by lp-habu · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You can't staff a whole large application development project with the best gurus: there aren't enough out there in the world.

      And why aren't there?

      For the same reason there aren't enough really good NFL quarterbacks for every team to have one, despite the money that is spent in trying to find them.

      People differ in ability in every field; the bell curve is real, and only the people who are at the high end of the curve can be considered one of "the best gurus". They will never constitute a large percentage of the group. Ever. Furthermore, there is usually a huge difference in performance between people who are in the top 10% of their field and those who are in the top 0.1% of their field. Most people would consider those in the top 10% as "the best gurus", but really it's only that tiny segment at the very top who deserve the appelation. Even then, you can expect a marked difference between those in the to 0.1% and those in the top 0.01%. Fact of life, folks.

  2. No Bugs for NSA? by ChePibe · · Score: 5, Funny

    Uh... it's going to be kind of hard for the NSA to do its job without bugs, isn't it?

    *rimshot*

    1. Re:No Bugs for NSA? by GrEp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Easier actually.

      http://www.rockwellcollins.com/news/page6237.html

      Rockwell collins designed a secure processor for the NSA that PROVABLY can run multiple threads where each thread can get no information about the others. That way they can run processes with different clearance levels on the same CPU.

      Model checking can make you big bucks if you can find the customers to pay for it.

      --

      bash-2.04$
      bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
  3. Whatever by HungWeiLo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When you're writing software for an air traffic control system, military avionics software, or an authentication system for the NSA, the delivered code can't afford to have bugs

    I've been in this industry for quite some time and let me be the first to say that I wish I could repeat this sentence with a straight face.

    --
    There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
  4. economics by bcrowell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The authors contend that there are two kinds of barriers to the adoption of best practices... First, there is often a cultural mindset or awareness barrier... Second, where the need for improvement is acknowledged and considered achievable, there are usually practical barriers to overcome such as how to acquire the necessary capability or expertise, and how to introduce the changes necessary to make the improvements.
    No, the reason so much software is buggy is economics. Proprietary software vendors have to compete against other proprietary software vendors. The winners in this Darwinian struggle are the ones who release buggy software, and keep their customers on the upgrade treadmill. Users don't typically make their decisions about what software to buy based on how buggy it is, and often they can't tell how buggy it is, because they can't try it out without buying it. Some small fraction of users may go out of their way to buy less buggy software, but it's more profitable to ignore those customers.

  5. Bugs are fine... by Paladin144 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Luckily, bugs are just fine if you happen to run a company that builds voting machines, such as Diebold. And if you think that elections aren't in the same category as air traffic control, I suggest you take a tour of Iraq. Elections are very important for your continued existance upon the earth.

  6. Here, here... by crimson30 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When you're writing software for an air traffic control system, military avionics software, or an authentication system for the NSA, the delivered code can't afford to have bugs

    I've been in this industry for quite some time and let me be the first to say that I wish I could repeat this sentence with a straight face.


    That was my first thought, particularly with military avionics. A few years ago they put out a hardware/software update for the ENS system (Enhanced Navigation System) which led to frequent crashing... and it took over a year for them to come out with a message saying that it was a bug and not to waste countless man hours trying to repair it.

    It's sort of a new concept, though, as I'd never really seen such problems with traditional avionics systems (non glass-cockpit stuff). I've always attributed it to people being used to the behavior of MS Windows. And I'm not saying that to start a flamewar. I'm serious. Unreliable avionics systems should be unacceptable, but these days, that doesn't seem to be the case.

    1. Re:Here, here... by Raul654 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Could you clarify here. When talking about bad guidance software for planes, "crashing" is an ambigious term ;)

      --


      To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
      --E.C. Stanton
    2. Re:Here, here... by drew · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've always attributed it to people being used to the behavior of MS Windows. And I'm not saying that to start a flamewar. I'm serious. Unreliable avionics systems should be unacceptable, but these days, that doesn't seem to be the case.

      Many years ago, I remember reading a quote from an employee at a major aircraft subcontractor along the lines of "If my company paid as much attention to the quality of our work as Microsoft, airplanes would be falling out of the sky on a weekly basis, and people would accept this as normal." I've heard many people, even programmers, claim that bugfree programs are impossible to write. They are not- they just cost far more in time and money than most companies can afford in this commercial climate. When success depends largely on being first to market and bugs and crashes are accepted as a normal fact of life, then they always will be a normal fact of life.

      Unfortunately, I think the blame lies at least in large part with the consumer. As long as people put up with programming errors in a $500 software suite that they would never accept in an $80 DVD player, we will continue to have these problems. Unfortunately, too many people still consider computers to be too much black magic that is out side of their (or anyone else's) grasp. Most people have little to know knowledge of how their car works under the hood, but they still believe that the engineer who designed it has enough knowledge to do it without making mistakes and expect the manufacturer to pay for those mistakes when they happen. Why should they believe any differently about the people who write the software they use?

      --
      If I don't put anything here, will anyone recognize me anymore?
  7. When bugs aren't allowed? by vertinox · · Score: 4, Funny

    Ususually when the software and the phrases "life support" or "nuclear weapons" are together in the same sentence.

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  8. Not unlimited funding by david.emery · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The Master Money server done by Praxis was done Fixed Price, and with a warranty that says Praxis would fix any bug discovered over the net 10 years -for free-.

    How many of you would be willing to place that kind of warranty on YOUR CODE?

    dave (who's tried SPARK and liked it a lot, although proofs are much harder than they should be...)

  9. 2 defacto models of software development by MLopat · · Score: 4, Informative

    In the world of software development, there have come to be two defacto models.

    1. Get the software out the door ASAP - quite simply, bang out code as fast as possible that meets a loosely defined specification. Then once the product is adopted, parachute help in like no tomorrow to steadily improve the product.

    2. Engineer the software - not as a simple as it sounds. This requires that a specification be drawn. A plan be prepared. A team of solid engineers formed and lead by a competent manager. Then, throughout the entire development cycle, test and debug code.

    My company does the latter and to do date we have retained 100% of our customers. I'm shocked by the number of developers that approach our company for jobs that don't have the first clue about how to even write a test harness, let alone do any real debugging. Then again, they don't teach much of that stuff in school and it seems that unless your role was specifically in testing at a previous job, that you're not going to have too much experience in that area. Its economics and marketing that put the bugs in software, not computer science.

  10. Re:Still can have bugs by GileadGreene · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Did you actually bother to RTFA? Oh yeah, this is /. - stupid question. Allow me to suggest that you make an exception, and actually take the time to read TFA in this case. Praxis does not claim no bugs, they claim significantly lower defect rates than development using other methods. Which in turn means much greater confidence that the system will work as desired.

    No one can ever make something that is completely "bug-free" - even in traditional, non-software disciplines. All you can do is make the probability that the system will work as high as possible. Praxis has some techniques that can help developers create software with a much higher probability of working correctly than it would otherwise have. That's a good thing, even if it doesn't result in perfection.

    Its buffer overflows and flawed design that has not been tested with every concievable input/output that causes most serious bugs in medical and aerospace applications.

    It's the fact that Praxis relies on static checking far beyond anything you've ever seen (using a carefully designed subset of Ada that can be statically checked in all sorts of interesting ways) that helps to ameliorate this problem, since the static check is effectively equivalent to an exhaustive input/output test.

  11. Re:Paper doesn't mention open source model by GileadGreene · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Except that the articles in question aren't about finding and removing bugs in already-implemented code, they are about a method that allows one to construct code that doesn't have bugs in the first place.

    Linux, Firefox, and OpenOffice are some of the best software on the planet. I think is a good practical testament to the OSS philosophy.

    And yet they all still suffer from a metric crapload of bugs. Praxis produces software with so few bugs that they are willing to provide a warranty that says they'll fix any bug found within the first 10 years, for free. If their software had the defect rate of Firefox or OpenOffice they'd be bankrupt in short order.

  12. Nearly unlimited risk helps too by goombah99 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    unlimited risk can be an incentive too.

    Professor Middlebrook at caltech was an innovator in an unusual field. Sattelite electronics. Since no repairman was coming they wanted robust electronics. He desigined circuits in which any component could fail as an open or a short and it would remain in spec. You know that's a remarkable achievement if you've ever desinged a circuit before. Notably you can't really do this using SPICE. Speice will tell you what comething does but not how to design it. To do that you need a really good sense of approximations of the mathematical formula a circuit represents to see which components are coupled in which terms. And you need one more trick. The ability to put in a new element bridging any two points and quickly see how it affects the cicuit in the presence of feedback. To do that he invented the "extra element theorem" which allows you to compute this in analytic form from just a couple simple calculations. They still don't teach this in stardard courses yet. You can find it in Vorperians text book, but that's it. If you want to learn it you gotta either go to the original research articles from the 70s.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  13. X windows in Ada for ATC by dlleigh · · Score: 4, Funny

    I was at an X windows technical conference many years ago when someone gave a presentation on X with Ada. When the speaker mentioned that it was for an air traffic control application, there was a sharp intake of breath all around the audience, most of whom had flown in for the meeting.

  14. Re:Still can have bugs by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Informative

    If you can prove through solid design and input and output types that the program wont lose control then your set. Its buffer overflows and flawed design that has not been tested with every concievable input/output that causes most serious bugs in medical and aerospace applications.

    Praxis uses a subset of Ada together with annotations in a language called SPARK to write most of their software. They also have tools which work with such code to do considerable static checking - much as type checking catches errors, checking the annotations catches many more just as efficiently - and generate proof obligations, which they can then formally prove. That means, for many of their projects, the actaully have formal proofs that buffer overflows cannot and will not occur.

    However in practice this challenge is a little unpractical when deadlines and interopability with closed source software get in the way.

    Again, this is where the tools and methodology matter. Praxis delivers code as fast as traditional development techniques, so deadlines aren't the problem. They can do this by using SPARKAda and the SPARK tools to do exceptionally robust testing on a regular basis for each incremental deliverable. This allows catching bugs much earlier, when they are cheaper and faster to fix.

    The only method I have seen with almost perfect reliability is where the inputs and outputs are overloaded to handle any datatype and can be proven mathamatically not to crash. I guess a CS degree is still usefull.

    It is pretty much this sort of mathematical rigor, injected into the development process as early as possible, that allows Praxis to produce the sort of defect rates that they do. And yes, that does mean that developers at Praxis are probably required to have stronger math and CS backgrounds that elsewhere. Given that, due to their ability to deliver almost bug free software in very reasonable time frames, Praxis charges 50% more than the industry daily rate, yes having a math or CS degree really does count for something - more money for starters.

    Jedidiah.

  15. Bugs and Beta testing. by iluvcapra · · Score: 4, Insightful

    TFA cites a particular NSA biometric identification program which has "0.00" errors per KSLOC.

    Now, this got me thinking. It is completely possible for a biometric identification program to identify two different individuals as the same person (like identical twins), or for it give a false negative identification (dirt on a lense, etc). Is this a bug? The code is perfect: no memory leaks, the thing never halts or crashes or segfaults, all the functions return what they should given what they are.

    I think the popular definition of "bug" tends to catch too many fish, in that it seems to include all the behaviors a computer has when the user "didn't expect that output," what a more technical person might call a "misfeature." TFA outlines a working pattern to avoid coding errors, not user interface burps -- like for example, giving a yes/no result for a biometric scan, when in fact it's a question of probabilities and the operator might need to know the probabilities. Such omissions (the end user would call this a 'bug'), are solved thru good QA and beta-testing, but TFA makes no mention of either of these things, and seems to think that good coding is the art of making sure you never dereference a pointer after free()'ing it. It does mention formal specification, but that is only half the job, and alot of problems only become clear when you have the running app infront of you.

    Discussion of TFA has its place, but it promises zero-defect programming, which is impossible without working with the users.

    --
    Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
  16. The right programming language helps hugely by brucehoult · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The site is slashdotted at the moment, so I can't read the article.

    A good example of people writing complex but bug-free software under time pressure is the annual ICFP Programming Contest. This contest runs over three days, the tasks are complex enough that you usually need to write 2000 - 3000 lines of code to tackle them, and the very first thing the judges do is to throw corner-cases at the programs in an effort to find bugs. Any incorrect result or crash and you're out of the contest instantly. After that, the winner is generally the highest-performing of the correct programs.

    Each year, up to 90% of the entries are eliminated in the first round due to bugs, usually including almost all the programs written in C and C++ and Java. Ocassionally, a C++ program will get through and may do well -- even win, as in 2003 when you didn't actually submit your program but ran it yourself (so it never saw data you didn't have a chance to fix it for). But most of the prize getters year after year seem to use one of three not-yet-mainstream languages:

    - Dylan
    - Haskell
    - OCaml

    You can argue about why, and about which of these three is the best, or which of them is more usable by mortals (I pick Dylan), but all of them are very expressive languages with uncluttered code (compared to C++ or Java), completely type-safe, produce fast compiled code, and use garbage collection.

    1. Re:The right programming language helps hugely by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Informative

      Praxis uses SPARK Ada, which is a subset of the Ada programming language and annotations that provide for extended static checking, and theorem proving. You can find more about SPARK at the Praxis website, or the Wikipedia article isn't too bad. It's a very nice language, and has fantastic tool support.

      If you find that interesting, but Ada isn't to your taste, you can try JML for Java which provides similar (but lacking quite the same robustness and tool support) annotations. JML lets you automatically generate JUnit tests based on your annotations, and with ESC/Java2 allows for extended static checking.

      If, as you appear, you are more of a fan of functional languages then I'd suggest you check out Extended ML and HasCASL which provide similar sorts of formal specification capabilities for ML and Haskell. Tool support for these is still a little limited, but they are both quite powerful and provide very expressive specification syntax.

      Jedidiah.

    2. Re:The right programming language helps hugely by brucehoult · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've participated in the ICFP before (one-man team on Java, program died in the first round, so there are my cards on the table),

      My cards on the table are that I've entered each of the last six years with 3 - 5 person teams using Dylan, collecting 2nd place twice and Judge's Prize twice.

      but one of the reasons the International Conference on Functional Programming Contest is consistently won by Functional Programmers is that it appeals heavily towards them both in terms of getting the word out to people and in terms of task selection.

      Getting the word out doesn't seem to be the problem. Last year for example there were 161 first-round entries. Only 38 entries -- 24% of the total -- were in one of the languages I mentioned as being consistently sucessful: 1 in Dylan, 16 in Haskell and 21 in OCaml.

      I also disagree about task selection. C and C++ and Java are every bit as suited to the sort of tasks in the ICFP contest as they are to the things they are normally used for. What they are not suited to is doing them in a short period of time, in an exploratory programming manner, and without bugs.

      Type safety, fast compiled code, garbage collection -- all of these were all but irrelevant to the last two years' tasks. The main stumbling block both years had been writing parsers.

      Parsers aren't the problem. C has had parser generators for thirty years and besides the messages to be parsed were totally trivial. Dylan doesn't yet have any good tools for writing parsers, but it doesn't matter because we were able in the first eight hours of the contest to hand write a complete and correctly functioning (but stupid) program using nothing more complex than regular expressions, leaving the remaining 64 hours to think of something clever to do. Anyone using Perl or Python or Ruby probably finished the infrastructure even quicker than we did.

  17. My Bogosity meter is wiggling by azuredragon23 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I have some beef to pick with the article: 1. It alleges that CMM5 organizations have about 1 defect/KLOC. Having worked and knowing such organizations, I can anecdotally confirm numbers like these are fiction. CMM5 certification has more to do with greasing palms rather than any absolute defect measurement. 2. A defect rate of 0.04bugs/KLOC is not zero bugs/KLOC. The difference is infinite in magnitude if that single bug is -- kills the user. 3. Low defect rates are more often a product of poor testing, not superior development.

  18. Re:productivity around 30 LOC per day by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Informative

    Their claims of massive error reduction are, at best, anecdotal. Let's see them do this after taking over a half-coded project with minimal design requirements, a hard deadline, and a budget that can be cut by governmental forces at will.

    Their claims of error reduction are based on the development method and a lot of the important stuff happens very early on, taking over a half finished project that failed to follow such a method is of course not going to work. They can't make existing code bug free, but they can write new code that has vastly less errors than most software. As to hard deadlines and budgets - as far as I am aware Praxis already works with deadlines, and apparently their project for Mastercard was done on a fixed flat fee, so working with fixed or limited budgets doesn't appear to be an issue either.

    Jedidiah.

  19. An interseting point that few managers understand by MerlynEmrys67 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Was working for a small startup with a bigtime CEO. One of his interseting points was, the most successful software companies in the world has yet to release a product anywhere close to "On Time". I can give you a train wreck litany of software companies that released products "On Time" that were so bug ridden people swore they would never buy another product from the company, and replace the product with a comptetitors.

    The end result - In a year, no one will remember that you were 6 months late - make a buggy release and in a year EVERYONE will remember the buggy release.

    Why I always have time to do it over, and never the time to do it right in the first place

    --
    I have mod points and I am not afraid to use them
  20. Re:Microsoft error rates by BCW2 · · Score: 4, Funny


    If operating systems ran airlines:

    UNIX Airways: Everyone brings one piece of the plane along when they
    come to the airport. They all go out on the runway and put the plane
    together piece by piece, arguing non-stop about what kind of plane they
    are suposed to be building.

    Mac Airlines: All the airline personnel look and act exactly the same.
    Every time you ask questions about details you are gently but firmly told
    that you don't need to know, don't want to know, and everything will be
    done for you without your ever having to know, so just shut up.

    Windows Air: The terminal is pretty and colorful, with friendly stewards,
    easy baggage check and boarding and a smooth take off. After about 10
    minutes in the air the plane explodes with no warning whatsoever.

    Windows NT Air: Just like Windows Air, but costs more, and uses much
    bigger planes, and takes out all other planes in a 40 mile radius when it
    explodes.

    Linux Air: Disgruntled employees of all other OS Airlines, (with UNIX
    geeks who finally figured out what kind of plane they were suposed to be
    building) decide to start their own airline. They build the planes,
    ticket counters, and pave the runways themselves. They charge a small fee
    to cover the cost of printing the ticket, but you can also download the
    ticket and print it yourself. When you board the plane you are given a
    seat, four bolts, a wrench, and a copy of the Seat-HOWTO.html. Once
    settled, the fully adjusable seat is very comfotable, the plane leaves
    and arrives on time without problems, and the in-flight meal is
    wonderful. You try to tell the customers of the other airlines about the
    great trip, but all they can say is, "You had to what with the seat?"

    with apologies to Doc Searls and Linux Journal.

    --
    Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
  21. I second the motion! by Jetson · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I've been in this industry for quite some time and let me be the first to say that I wish I could repeat this sentence with a straight face.

    I've been a controller for 13 years and have worked in the automation end of things for almost 4 years now. There is NO SUCH THING as bug-free Air Traffic Control software. The best we can hope for is heterogenous redundancy and non-simultaneous failures. Some engineers seriously think they could replace all those controllers with an intelligent algorhythm. What really scares me is that the more they try, the less engaged the people become and the harder it is for them to fall back to manual procedures when the worst happens.

    Everyone used to laugh at how Windows NT could only run for 34 days before it needed a reboot. Some of our systems can't run HALF that long without needing a server switch-over or complete cold-start.

  22. I have to wonder.... by 2Bits · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, if this toolset and methodology are so good, I have to wonder why it does not get more widespread use? According to their info, it is developed in the 70's and 80's, so that's not new. And why are softwares so buggy and have such a lousy reputation anyway? Not to start a flamewar, but let's just list a few possible "reaons" here:

    1. Why aren't schools teaching this methodoly thoroughly? Why aren't this toolset and programming language taught in school by default? I learned a bit of Ada at school, but that's only part of a comparison between programming language design. So, are schools to be blamed? Or those profs don't know better? Why aren't proper engineering methodologies emphasized?

    2. Someone developed a nice methodology, with a nice toolset and programming language, and got greedy and made it too expensive to acquire. Other tools are good enough, and the resulting softwares are acceptable to the market, so, this nice thing never got widespread use.

    3. Programmers are asked to do the impossible. We (I include myself here) had to work with customers who don't know what they want, only give very fuzzy requirements (Praxis's customers, from their list, are different kind of animals, and they probably know better than most of the customers we had to work with), and even if we lay out the whole detailed plan in front of them, they still don't know what they want. They will agree to the plan, sign and approve it, and until you have completed the whole system according to the plan, they would ask to redo the whole thing. If a customer dares to ask a civil engineer to add 2 more stories between the 3rd and 4th floor after the custom-built building is finished, guess what would the civil engineer say? Programmers are asked to do this all the time (I know I have been asked to), so are customers to blame? You can't get the system done properly if requirements are shifting all the time.

    4. Programmers are a bunch of bozos who know shit about proper engineering. Yeah, I can take the blame, I've been programming for over a decade, and I know how programmers work: methodologies are for pimps! If a bridge engineer can't tell or prove how much load the bridge can take, I'm sure people would tell him/her that s/he has no business in building bridge.

    5. Customers of packaged softwares would buy a buggy software to save one buck anyway, why would vendors put extra efforts and costs to make it better? Look at the market, a lot of good softwares didn't survive, and sometimes, the worst of the line prospoered (no naming here!). So people get what they asked for.

    6. Customers (even custom-built projects customers) are a bunch of cheap folks, they would go to the least priced, no matter what. Praxis's customers are willing to pay 50% more for quality work, how many of your customers are willing to? We are willing to fix our bugs, free of charge, for the first 10 years too, if our customers are willing to pay 50% than the market rate for quality work. But so far, I've never met one such customer yet. Granted, I don't work in the defense industry. So, don't blame us for lousy work, if customers try to squeeze out every single buck out of it. And in China (and some other countries too), you have to pay a huge amount for kickback too, sometimes, as high as 80% of the project's budget.

    7. Software vendors are a bunch of greedy bastards, they put buggy softwares on the market, without having to accept any responsibility (just read your EULA!). Industry problem or government problem? Not enough regulations (for safety, for useability, etc)? Other industries seem to do ok, e.g. medical, civil, .... so, are software vendors a bunch of irresponsible kids that need constant monitoring?

    8. The indsutry is developing too fast, people are chasing the coolest, hippiest, most buzzword-sounding technologies. No one gives a shit about "real engineering". And there are simply too much to learn too, in how many industries can you say people are required to master that much technologi

  23. Nearly unlimited risk helps too-Theorem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    "If you want to learn it you gotta either go to the original research articles from the 70s."

    http://www.edn.com/archives/1995/080395/16df4.htm

    "The extra element theorem is used for analog circuitry. The gist of it is that you remove the reactive elements ( or dependant sources ) from a circuit and then put them back in through a process of correction factors."

    [n-extra element theorem]
    http://ece-www.colorado.edu/~ecen5807/course_mater ial/nEET.pdf

    [Middlebrook's extra element theorem]
    http://ece-www.colorado.edu/~ecen5807/course_mater ial/slidesAppC.pdf

  24. IEFBR14 is the perfect example of your point by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 4, Interesting

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEFBR14

    IEFBR14 is sort of an executable version of /dev/null. It returns immediately when called. It had four or five bug reports filed against it.

    IBM could of course write a defect-free return statement. All the bugs were requirements drift that Praxis could not have prevented.

  25. Re:productivity around 30 LOC per day by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Then their ability to produce bug-free code depends, as usual, on control factors, not on real-world engineering.

    In as much as a civil engineer depends on control factors via refusing customers who demand that the building have 6 stories not 4 just one month before construction is due to finish, yes. Real world engineering makes certain demands of the client. Someone who wants to build a treehouse for their kids doesn't consult an architect and a civil engineer, and civil engineers don't take contracts from people who refuse to set out some limits on what they want built, and what they expect of it.

    Praxis uses solid engineering. Their "Correct by Construction" approach is solidly grounded in axiomatic mathematics and uses similar sorts of formal calculations and logical and mathematical proofs as you might expect to see from civil, electrical, aerospace, or ny other kind of engineers. Take the time to read sample chapters from the SPARK book to get an idea of exactly what they are doing. There is very definitely quite solid engineering going on.