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CEV Revolutionary Gimballed Thrusters

simonbp writes "A Tennessee Tech Professor has proposed an innovative gimbal mount for 'inclusion to the design of [NASA's] CEV (Crew Exploration Vehicle), revolutionizing the vehicle's RCS (Reaction Control System) and solar panel orientation capabilities.' This will allow for nimble maneuvering and for the solar cells to maximize power production."

12 of 71 comments (clear)

  1. Gimbal? by iopha · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you're like me and are wondering what the heck a gimbal is, wikipedia has an article. Not being an engineer, I still only have but the fuzziest idea of what's going on here; blame a liberal arts background.

    1. Re:Gimbal? by interiot · · Score: 4, Informative
      Better is wikipedia's Gimbaled thrust and the NASA pages it points to.

      (funny, I was just reading that before coming to slashdot... even better is the semi-related water rocket page.... awesome stuff)

  2. Gimballed thrusters? by Saiyine · · Score: 2, Funny


    Gimball looks to me like a perfectly cromulent word!

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  3. Re:Wow...Old News Is So Exciting! by shmlco · · Score: 2, Informative
    From TFA: "four single RCS thrusters, placed 90 degree apart around the circumference of the service module, with the ability to direct thrust to any direction in a hemispherical motion, replacing - and capable of even more manoeuvres than - the current four groups of four (16 in total) body-fixed thrusters."

    And I'm pretty sure the orginal CSM did not have a gimbled engine. The Saturn did, but with no where near the same range of motion as being discussed here.

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  4. Re:Wow...Old News Is So Exciting! by georgewilliamherbert · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's standard practice to gimbal the main engines in a launch vehicle, or an upper stage. That gives you pitch and yaw (and sometimes, if you have 2 or more engines, roll) orientation control while you're under thrust from those main engines, without having to use the smaller RCS engines as well.

    Other ways of doing it include using a RCS anyways, with fixed main engines; putting vanes or paddles in the main engine exhaust stream but keeping it fixed; using aerodynamic control fins (only works in an atmosphere during certain speed ranges, useless at liftoff or in space); injecting a liquid or gas into the main rocket engine nozzles on one side but not the other, to give side thrust (LITVC or Liquid Injection Thrust Vector Control, though it can technically use gas as well).

    It is not standard practice to gimbal the reaction control system used in space. The assumption to date has been that the four fixed quads approach gives the best reliability under circumstances where part of the system suffers a failure. If you lose one of these oriented thrusters (stuck actuator or thruster fails) then it's like losing a whole standard quad, in terms of the vehicle's remaining dynamics. Lose two, and your maneuverability is severely impaired.

  5. Link to actual animation by Animats · · Score: 5, Informative
    If you don't want to plow through all the blogodreck and registration, here's the animation of the Canfield joint (quicktime).

    As a rocket engine gimbal, this doesn't look promising. It's a rather bulky mechanism; the linkage is much larger than the engine bell. It requires fifteen bearings, not including the three motors. The standard solution, a gimbal ring arrangement, only requires four. The bearings also have to handle off-center loads, never a good thing. Bearings in space are headaches; lubrication is tough and temperature changes can jam them.

    The motors are in a weak position from a leverage standpoint; the engine thrust is applied directly to the motor shafts, so they (and their gear trains) must be strong enough to overpower the thruster. In a gimbal ring arrangement, the bearings are usually placed so that the center of thrust is at the center of the gimbal, so that the bearings, not the actuators, take almost all the thrust. Very large engines, like the Space Shuttle and Saturn V main engines, have been successfully gimballed that way.

    The three motors don't seem to add redundancy; it looks like they all have to be working.

    For comparison, here's a simple gimbal from Amadillo Aerospace, Carmack's rocket program.

    In reality, having many fixed reaction thrusters is probably more reliable than have a few steerable ones. Fewer moving parts.

    1. Re:Link to actual animation by Animats · · Score: 2, Informative
      Different animation, and a different version of roughly the same klunky mechanism. Better bearing mounts, though. That one you could actually build.

      The motors seem to be right out of the Maxon catalog, with the planetary gearhead option on one end and the encoder on the other. Those are good motors (we used one to steer our DARPA Grand Challenge vehicle), but they are not rated for spacecraft operation.

      Here's an Aeroflex gimbal that actually is used in space to steer a thruster. Note how the rotational axes go through the line of thrust, and how big and solid the bearing blocks are, compared to the proposed design.

    2. Re:Link to actual animation by Dale+Dunn · · Score: 2, Informative

      The basic mechanism shown is basically the same.

      What I don't like about this idea is that the thrust seems to be carried by the actuators holding their position. Come to think of it, they're using 3 actuators to accomplish 2 degree of freedom motion. Great. Armadillo's gimbal doesn't have these problems, but it does have a very limited range of motion in comparison.

      It's not difficult (I just did it) to imagine a gimbal with the same or better range of motion, loads not significanlty carried by motors, no hoses (rotary seals), and only two actuators. The weakness in my idea is the need for a set of somewhat large diameter bearings. It's just a trunnion on a swivel base.

      What problem is this gimbal supposed to solve in addition to the large range of motion in a space-rated package?

  6. Wikipedia definition way over specialised. by Flying+pig · · Score: 2, Informative

    Gimbals have been around since...well, if you believe Needham, at least the 10th Century AD in China. A gimbal is just a way of mounting something so it can rotate relative to something else while still being attached to it and moving linearly with it, and the main application has been on boats where equipment like lamps and compasses is suspended in mounts so it can swing. http://www.sailgb.com/p/captains_cabin_lamp/ is a picture of a small gimballed lamp. So long as the centre of gravity of the equipment is below the plane of the mount, the boat can rock underneath and the lamp, compass, cooker or whatever will stay more or less upright.
    By using an outer pair of pivots to hold a ring which then has another pair of pivots at 90 degress to which the equipment is attached, you get two axis gimbals which allow for rocking and for pitch, which is important on small boats. It isn't practical to suspend (say) a marine stove from a chain because it would swing all over the place, whereas suspending it from pivots near the top means that the base can swing a bit while the pans stay more or less in the same place.
    So all the stuff in Wikipedia about Euler angles is all very well, but a gimbal is just a way of allowing one thing to be attached to another while being able to rotate in one, two or three dimensions relative to it. There are various designs and obviously the Canfield one is a clever one, but there is nothing mysterious about gimbals themselves.

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  7. I work in this lab. by docfreezzzz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I am a Mechanical Engineering Undergraduate who attends TTU and does research for the department in which this design originated. I work in the lab where the device was first prototyped. Just as an FYI, the device is revolutionary because of the elimination of repetitive structures. Granted the bearing are an issue but the gimble can achieve a full 360 degree spherical change in attitude with only the use of 3 stepper motors. Nothing else does exactly that at this time. That's why the device is interesting to NASA. Think of replacing the current arrangement of 5 motors with just one. Can you say cost savings? Just thought I would post my 2 cents since I have had to demo the device on several occassions and have first hand experience with the mechanism. OUT

    1. Re:I work in this lab. by docfreezzzz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It was meant more for small craft travel vector correction. Hence the attachment to CEV. Not main craft repetitive flights like the space shuttle. Sorry I gave that as an example but its something everyone can relate to. I do have to disagree with you in terms of your analysis of engineering economics however. How many space shuttles do you think they mass produce? Most parts are one offs from precision manufacturing facilities. The only parts which are repeat manufactured are SRBs and those are extremely simple. The dies and CNC code is what is costed most in manufacturing. The mass production just makes the profit/cost ratio more favorable to the consumer... aka NASA. If you only make 30 pieces. There really isn't a mass production method in place. And technicians are much faster at servicing one part instead of 4. That's part of the reasoning behind the system. We are talking about replacing multiple pieces with one piece therefore they still have the same learning curve for servicing the system. As for redundancy I do agree with you there. It is far safer to have a backup system. However, even with the multiple booster positioning systems in place today. If one fails entirely, there is still a serious impairment to the craft. They just don't send up unused pieces with a space vehicle. Weight costs money. Several grams can cost on the order of thousands of dollars to reach high earth orbit. Once again the system that weighs less wins especially with funding reductions in the program as of late. Just my 2 cents... ;) OUT

  8. Design is a disaster by O2H2 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    The design is interesting in a sophomoric way. It is clearly designed by someone who has never had to qualify a device for spaceflight. Highly cantilevered, indeterminate stuctures with eccentric centroids and active mechanisms in the loads paths are terrible. I would give that thing about 60 seconds on a vibe table before it came to pieces. The use of flex hoses with such large motions is also a really bad idea- expecially when they have to flex in multiple axes at once- there is no practical solution to make such a fluid connection last more than a few thousand cycles under cryogenic conditions under the 300 psig pressure conditions that are planned for CEV propulsion. As someone who DOES design such things on a daily basis I give it a D- for practicality, cost and reliability/redundancy.

    Also the control valving is highly decoupled from the combustion chamber which means high dribble volume and terrible min Ibit. Those simple stepper motors also have to operate at 165R for prolonged periods- this denies you most lubricants and requires special resolvers and the like. There is also no way that such a mechanism can deliver the frequency response of multiple small thrusters pointed in multiple directions. There is also the need to interface either a fiber optic or high voltage spark igniter lead to the thruster across large motions- could be a problem for the non-optical approach.

    The issue is : just what problem are we trying to solve? is it cost of the combustion chamber? Number of valves? Weight? Overall complexity? Or is this just an interesting exercise for a kinematics class? The vehicle attitude control function can be performed two active and two standby modules- not four fully active as was used on Apollo. This is highly optimal for cryogenic thrusters since it minimizes the number of lines which must be chilled and pure 6 DOF operations are rare as opposed to simple maneuvers with coupled rotations and translations. This solution was proposed to NASA and rejected as being "just too different from what Apollo did". I cannot imagine them actually flying this contraption.