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Demise of C++?
fashla writes "Several somber and soul searching threads have been recently posted to the USENET newsgroup comp.lang.c++ such as "C++ is Dead" and "A Dying Era". The reason for this reflective mood is the sudden demise of the magazine C/C++ Users Journal (CUJ) http://www.cuj.com/ that had been published by CMP Media. Participating in the posts have been such C++ luminaries such as Bjarne Stroustrup and P.J. Plauger. While some contributers think that CUJ's demise is due to the general trend away from print, others think something else is afoot..."
Though it were hard for me to imagine, for instance, Unreal's engine being ported to Java, Quake seems to have fared well with feral C.
The problem with C++ is that it is neither as simple as C nor has it the benefits of Java and C# as they allow for code that is easier to read and understand. The available tools are also better for the competing environments on the upper side.
C is still developing features at a slow but steady pace and it has inherited a few from C++. There will probably be more features inherited in the future, which will cut more into the area of C++. The difference between C and C++ is that C isn't object-oriented while C++ supports object-oriented design. But object-oriented design is not necessarily needed at the low-level programming that is used when accessing devices and similar operations, and hence C will be the choice of such programming.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
If they want my C++ compiler they will have to pry it from my cold, dead hands!
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, The hands acqui
If you put it that way, everything is dying. I bet a buck that C# or Java will be dead as a rock in 20 years, just like C++ and most of the other programming languages we know today.
What we are noticing today is that programming languages alone just don't cut it anymore. The software is so advanced, that standard language constructs and libraries are way too raw to be applied to something useful for the average application programmer. Knowing frameworks, APIs and libraries is becoming a lot more important than using all the language paradigms and hidden tricks.
I think C++'s user base is splitting: On one hand there are the library and API developers, for whom the standard and the language are wholy. On the other hand, there are the application programmers, who care about the practical side of the language; they use it because it has advantages over other languages and has lots of libraries written for it.
My belief is that C++ is more alive today than ever. It is more powerful than ever. And it will be for a long time (in technology terms, indeed). Of course, in 10 years time it won't be recognizable. But it's wrong to say that C++ is dying.
We, C++ programmers, just got tired of being insulted all the time, so we don't talk much any more. After all, every time we mention C++ we are told how bad it is and how stupid we all are for using it. Sure, we can rebut all those arguments, but there are so many loud people declaiming them that nobody ever hears us. So, we just shrug, shut up, and go back to writing code. If you don't want to listen, you are only hurting yourselves and your employers.
[rant] .. if ain't good by such and such a date then we cut it". So this cut has been in the pipeline for a while.
I don't know about any subversive anti C++ group that is plotting the downfall of this language, but I was taken aback last week when I received the next issue in my C/C++ Users Journal subscription that had a letter attached to it saying that it was the last issue ever. This pissed me off as you don't just dump a magazine like a hot potato, you track the way it is selling and you say "well
What also annoyed me about it was that the publishing company will transfer my exisiting subscription over to Dr Dobbs (though I can get my money back). Personally I feel that Dr Dobbs took a major nose dive years ago and is in no way of the same quality as the C/C++UJ. The transfer from glossy to newsprint style paper showed that they were needing to make cost cutbacks which implies to me that they were losing it in general. But what really took the cake was an article printed in the Dec 2005 issue where in a DB app, presentation was confused with storage in a manner befitting a failed CS101 assignement. While I gagged at the article itself, what shocked me even more was that the Dr Dobbs editors actually included it for publication. (As I blame the editors, I am not directly pointing to the article itself).
C/C++UJ said in their cover letter that they will be expanding Dr Dobbs to take on a lot of the content from the C/C++UJ. Personally I think that Dr Dobbs may be too far gone for this sort of recovery, and that I have lost a magazine that I liked, was to the point and generally full of quality (though other people may say I am blind about this). I may give Dr Dobbs the chance to show that it has improved, but I won't be holding my breath for very long.
[/rant]
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Despite my love for C++ I find myself writing less and less C++ code. Why? Well, I guess it's due Ruby ( http://www.ruby-lang.org/ ) in my case. And whenever I make an extention in Ruby I write it in C, not C++. Why should I spend 5 days writing a tool in C++ when I can write it in 5 hours using Ruby ?
I feel sad about not using C++ more often though, because it really was my favorite language for a long time. I just can't think of any project idea I have where C++ would be better suited than Ruby.
C++ remains as the only proper object-oriented language. Despite all the years of continuous development in languages, there has yet arisen an overall better object-oriented language. Yes it's ugly. Yes it's cryptic. Yes, it explodes often. But there isn't another language that does things better.
C++ the "only proper object oriented language"?!? It started life as a kludged on Modula extension to C. It has evolved into an overly complex language that includes elements of many programming paradigms, but implements all but the procedural ones poorly. The procedural stuff came from C anyway. Objective C is far closer to a "proper" object-oriented language, adding the minimum to C to give it OOP features. Smalltalk itself is the purest OOP language.
Java - Oh wow, a language that inherited the syntax from C++. Also completely controlled by a useless business committee. Tack on the JVM and you have yourself a C++ killer! Oh wait...
It inherited procedural syntax from C, not C++. The OOP aspects were inherited from Objective C and SmallTalk, along with a class library that owes much to NeXTstep/OpenStep. Gosling and other Sun engineers must have been exposed to NeXT's development platform during the brief Sun dalliance with OpenStep. As for being controlled by a "business" committee, my experience of Java's evolution is that it was largely driven byb engineers at Sun. Anyway, Stroustrup and the ISO committees haven't done a great job with C++.
As for being a C++ killer, it seems to be exactly that at my current employer. Our content delivery systems have been rewritten in Java and C, replacing a C++ monstrosity. Our only outsourced application is in the process of being rewritten in Java rather to replace the current C++ version from the same vendor. C++ ain't just dying, it's dead here.
C# - Like Java, but worse. Switch the Java committee for a Microsoft one. Switch JVM for .NET. Stupidity for everyone!
Although it's just Java for Windows, C# is a much more elegant language than C++.
Objective-C - Is it used ever outside of Apple development?
Why's that, doesn't development for MacOS X amount to much then? Plus, the Cocoa APIs are far more elegant than the hideous STL abomination.
Smalltalk - Nice and pretty. And unheard of outside of the niche.
It was ahead of it's time, but obscurity doesn't mean it's a poorer language than C++.
Python, Ruby, etc. - Often considered too slow.
Only in urban myths.
C++ still is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to program anything in it, because we do not program anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to program.
Flourescent (adj): smelling like ground wheat.
Saying that C++ is dead because C/C++ Users Journal is no more is about as ridiculous as saying that Linux is dead because Linuxworld magazine is dead. I'm sorry, but the two are not interconnected at all. True, there's no real magazine for C and C++ developers in the newsstands, but if magazine popularity has anything to do with it, then the same can be said for Perl, Python, Ruby, and a myriad of other languages that aren't in print. I'd be more inclined to say that the publishing industry for language content is dead as when it was time to renew my subscription to C/C++ UJ, I opted instead to not renew. Why pay $29.95 (or whatever the sliding scale that CMP Media uses to determine what you pay that month) for a bunch of articles that may or may not relate to doing useful work with C/C++ (and admit it... how many pure C++ articles were there? I remember many more articles on D, Java interoperability, and the like than there were C/C++ articles). I found that the one section I did read religiously was the fictional workplace created by Herb Sutter and his co-author (the name escapes me at the moment) which detailed three coders (the master, the apprentice, and the guru) against "Bob". That was about it.
:)
So, I don't think that C++ is going anywhere because the journal is going away... I think instead people who are using C++ will go elsewhere for information about C++.
No story here... move along.
IMHO, C/C++ is far from dying. It's getting stronger than ever atleast in the realm of software engineering. I see it finding it's nitch closer to the hardware and in core of advanced software where speed and optimization is important.
Like, you wouldn't write a 3D game engine in java, atleast not yet anyway.
Look at KDE what is it written in? and Unreal? What is the JVM itself written in? and
I still see that software engineers are still using it heavily where as the rest of us mortals in the business realm, develop in other interpreted languages that can offer faster development time. Cost is everything, we programmers are no longer seen as an asset but more as a cost. Java and Lamp programmers are just cheaper.
I find it very unfortunate that schools are no longer teaching C++ and switching to Java.
The end result is a more limited amount of advanced C++ programmers out there working on very important advanced applications.
"If a show of teeth is not enough, bite
...in that there's often more than one (or one dozen) ways to do something. I think a lot of scorn heaped on C++ is due to the fact that the scorner at some point opened up an STL file (or anything generated by Microsoft's ATL) and ran screaming. And frankly, they're right...that's some imposing syntax and not at all friendly to read or understand.
But what I've told people again and again is that *you* don't have to write it that way. Don't understand multiple inheritence? Fine...*don't use it*. Don't get templates? Fine...*don't use them*. We still use VC6 and its template functionality isn't even complete!
The truth is, you can have bizzare WTF moments in *any* language. A lot of what people attribute to the failure of a language is the failure of a programmer to properly explain what his/her code does in a straightforward way *using the code itself*. The best code is clean and concise and C++ gives you as much opportunity to do this as any language. Sure you can have multi-thousand line functions in C++, but this isn't a failure of the language to somehow magically break it apart for you into better organized bits, it's a failure to understand that a language, *any* language, whether purely written or even spoken, is to convey a message, a story, and without careful attention to detail, can become an unholy mess (like this post).
Among all the programming languages I've used over the last 25 years (6502/6809/m68k/... assembly, Prolog/Miranda/... functional, Perl/Tcl/Python/Lisp/Java/... interpreted, C/C++/PL-1/... compiled), only 2 really stand out as "excellent" tools:
C++ and Python. I really have to struggle picking which one I love to write programs in more. They both have their place, and they are both lovely in their own way.
As far as C++ goes, since it exposes all the "knobs and dials" of the underlying computing architecure, it does have a very long learning curve. However, Template Metaprogramming is unlike anything, available anywhere, in any other language.
Listening to all these Java/C# fanboys flame C++ templates, and compare them to "Generics" etc., is like listening to guys compare their cool Ox-Cart wheel mods, while saying how much that new-fan-dangled "ferr-ar-eee" Sucks...
Yes, it took *years* for me to master C++. Someone smarter, and/or with better (read: any) instruction would -- and should -- do better. But, being able to express an algorithm purely, which will compile efficiently to process *any* type(s), stored in *any* container, accross *any* architecture, with full static type checking and bare-metal hand-coded assembly language efficiency, is something truly unique in the programming language world today.
When some other language comes out with something better and more efficient than Template Metaprogramming, let me know. 'Til then, its C++, baby!
-- -pjk Perry Kundert perry@kundert.ca http://kundert.2y.net
Unfortunately for C++, there are very few programs for which this is the appropriate niche.
The RAND corporation says that more than 70% of all software is embedded software. Embedded as an industry is almost universally C++. Please do not confuse being in a different branch of the industry with a branch of industry simply not existing.
StoneCypher is Full of BS
C++ is the only remaining major language which has hiding without safety. C has neither. Java, C#, the Pascal/Modula/Ada/Eiffel family, and all the scripting languages have both hiding and safety. That lack of safety is responsible for most of the crashes and exploits in today's software. When a virus takes over your machine due to a buffer overflow, it's probably because of that bad design decision in C++. Every day, hundreds of millions of people must suffer because of that mistake.
The largest single problem comes from the decision in C to treat a pointer and an array as the same thing. This seemed convenient thirty years ago, but created a language in which the size of an array is not permanently associated with the array. In particular, the fact that arrays are passed to functions without size information is a huge source of trouble. This, of course, is why we have buffer overflows.
Attempts were made in the STL to fix this problem, but it didn't really work out. Trying to retrofit strings to the language via the template mechanism was not all that successful, since so many libraries and system calls required the old-style strings.
Safety is not a performance issue. It's possible to do checking very efficiently, if the compiler knows what to check. Subscript checks can usually be hoisted out of inner loops at compile time. But this is not possible for C++, because the subscript checking, when enabled, is in the STL, not the language.
The second big problem in C++ is the need to obsess on "who owns what". Memory allocation is the nightmare of C++. Again, the STL tried to address this, and again, it was botched. The auto_ptr debacle illustrates the limitations of the language. There have been many, many attempts to implement "smart pointers", and they're all unsafe. At some point, you have to extract a C-type pointer to get something done, which introduces a hole in reference counting. If you don't extract raw pointers, you spend too much time updating reference counts. Again, this is something that a compiler could optimize if the compiler knew more about what was going on. But with reference counting implemented at the macro level of templates, that's not possible.
Garbage collection is occasionally proposed as a panacea, but it's not compatible with the concept of destructors. In a garbage collected language, what destructors and finalizers do must be severely limited. This is contrary to the C++ concept of "resource allocation as initialization". You don't want to close a window from the garbage collector. Also, introducing garbage collection introduces a form of concurrency, in a language that doesn't handle concurrency well. There are workarounds for this, but like most workarounds, they're painful. Take a good look at how Microsoft's "Managed C++" approached the problem. It's wierd; read about "resurrection, where an object comes back to life during garbage collection.
Those are the two elephants in the living room of C++. Denying them will not make them go away. This is harsh. But it's not wrong.
talking about them being dead and that was one of the better moves
I've made in the stock market... I imagine all the Sun people are
really concerned too; they're as good as dead. I suspect redbull is
killing coke too, they are probably dead.
I like C++, I like the idea and the intent. After spending like 10
years going through standards processes, I actually like the end
product and the STL and what have you, it's substantially more clean
that it was in 1991. I think they got a good 80% of the way there.
There is still some jankiness though.
I think the thing with C++ that is larger is that they are still old
world. There is no quick movement and there still isn't any "21st
century" development style in the standards group. Java has warts but
one of the great things it has going for it is Sun produced a lot of
standards and then the jakarta group did the same and there tends to
be a lot of similarity between "high quality" java products and
components. There is a ton of java stuff to reuse and the code tends
to be be laid out in a similar way, built in a similar way, javadoc is
used, xdocklet is used, etc.. C++ doesn't have any of these standards
working for it and there aren't any major projects (maybe KDE and QT)
that are really sort of laying out the guidelines and building
reusable components. In short, nobody is really showing everyone else
"how to do it." I think that alone has accellerated java at a
remarkable rate.
Beacuse of all of that, I don't know of a lot of good high quality
C++ reuse. There are some knickknacks that might be reused. Then
there is kind of this whole-world style framework, like QT which
includes tons and tons of stuff. Simple little libraries don't seem
to be popular because there are so many different ways you can use
them, different conventions, etc.. Every time you start a C++
project, you're starting over from scratch. The other thing java has
helping it is the class library. You cna buy Roguewave or something
but there isn't a good opensource alternative. Boost is kind of
filling the gap but it's still a little project and I think the scope
has stayed fairly small for a lot of reasons, many of which are
political.
Part of this is the C legacy and the C++ attitude, it let's you do
things "your way." And the languages tries not to do "too much" yet
it's supposed to compete with higher level languages that are totally
tricked out with features and libraries. I think if you were
starting a new large scale application project and Java wasn't an
option and mono/.net wasn't an option and you were looking at C++,
GNAT would also have to be considered (as radical a thought as that
is) because I think there might be as much or more high quality
reusable componets that you could harvest for it.
It just needs a really strong leader and some community built up
around it. Define some common framework rules. Write a couple
frameworks, if I could just instantiate a socket class (with SSL as a
yes/no flag) and create a high performance and high quality C++ server
network server in a small chunk of code, in a standard like way,
that'd be cool. Imagine that it had some template based policy stuff
that allowed me to plugin validators and crap like that and we created
a nice reusable network component and started to make some of the
security holes in that stuff go away... Simple and clean, reusable.
WOuld you write your own server everytime now or would you use this
one?