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NewtonOS Running on Linux PDA
Seb Payne writes "At the WWNC 2006, Adam Tow has reported that Einstein, the NewtonOS emulator is now working on a Sharp Zaurus Linux PDA, showing future for our favourite green friend. Although it is not production quality, could this bring a future to the Newton platform?"
could this bring a future to the Newton platform?
No.
Newton has long been dead.
I am defenseless. Use your button. Mod me down with all of your hatred.
So will anyone make any droll jokes about Newton and Apples?
Argh.
Although it is not production quality, could this bring a future to the Newton platform?
No, I see no reason why emulating an OS under Linux on a PDA would bring that platform a future. I think that the best thing to do would be to incorporate those features that you liked from the Newton into an existing platform, rather than emulating it under Linux on a Zaurus, which seems more like a "fun and geeky thing to do" than a practical solution to anything.
But Steve Jobs hates NewtonOS. NewtonOS must die!!!
Why some people is so obsessed reviving old (if it's not dead) technology? I'm just out from my desperation for hope the continuity of BeOS. I think mainstream public project such as Linux based or FreeBSD have better future than expecting a future from a dead or dying OS(es) other than for the sake of nostalgia. If the hardware dead, it's dead man. get an iPod if you're obsessed with everything apple (yeah I know, no input possible, so it's not a pda replacement)
NewtonOS? C'mon, this fetish needs to stop. It's like watching Bryant Gumble looking at the donut stand. NewtonOS making news, it's all good, but a Technology ComeBack? That's pathetic.
"Don't let fools fool you. They are the clever ones."
Go back to fluxtions class.
The OS was only part of the puzzle.
Yes, its great that the OS may live again in some useable form, but its not quite the same with out the larger formfactor and apple quality behind it.
If by some miracle and Jobs got a clue so Apple would bring it back, i know id be in line to buy another one..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I think I'll wait until they get LeibnizOS running on one of these things.
Not me. They're both just obsolescent classical OSs and I don't see the point.
I'm looking to the future, it's Bohring.
KFG
If apple brought the Newt back ( updated of course, and a bit more reasonably priced ) you would find lots of people would flock to buy them.
Not that i expect that ever to happen, but there is a market for the 'father' of the PDA to return too.
if you doubt me, ever try to find a used Newt? They still bring a relatively high price, as they are well loved by their owners.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
aside from the early handwriting recognition woes and their dissing of graffitti,
the newton OS did some amazing things for a handheld, things others till haven't tried to do with the power of a decent laptop.
i'd love to see what they could do with it updated and with ten more years of evolution in how we think about imfo and OSs
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
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Production... of what?
~jeff
Well, obviously not. Cause this is THE reason why this won't work: ;-)
Sharp's Zausus may be the coolest PDAs on earth, but it's unfortunately close to impossible
to buy a recent Zaurus (SL-C1000 or 3100) outside Japan, so they have no real market weight.
Sure, you can buy one from a specialized import shop for twice the price (but then,
most people prefer to buy any other PDA for half the double price
Or you can import it yourself or via a service like pricejapan.com, but again,
that's more hassle than just choosing another PDA.
So the question is rather:
Will Sharp ever sell PDAs (again?) in Europe and the USA?
or will Nokia get the whole Linux PDA Market with their 770?
The goal here is not just being able to run decade-old apps from the Newton. It is extending what was so good about the Newton to new platforms. No pda has yet to come close to the best features of the Newton. Furthermore, palm os has stagnated, and there are lots of gadgets, from cell phones to "internet tablets" appearing that run on linux that are crying out for better user interfaces (especially decent handwriting recognition). Check out http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthrea d.php?p=7287#post7287 over on the Nokia 770 forum as an example of how this might play out.
With the iPod now running video, and 3G networks streaming TV shows to mobile phones, and Apple linking up with Motorola one question around the Newton experience is whether iPods will start to gain WiFi or Cellphone type facilties (e.g. for buying tunes on the move) and hence become more multi-modal devices. Clearly the PDA market isn't a growth sector as the smart-phone revolution is fully underway, but is there a market in which Apple start extending the iPod or building on ROKR to move into smartphones.
Newton is dead, but whether Apple gets into the smart devices market is probably more open.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
There were lots of new Newton-related technology at the show. It's a pity it's not covered anywhere.
One little thing I worked on was a Newton book reader extension for Firefox that can read Newton books from within Firefox on Linux, Mac OS X, Solaris, WinXP, etc. It's now in its second public version.
The reason that people still work with Newtons is simple -- Newtons still do things that nothing else on the market seem capable of doing. There are some really good, solid ideas in that OS.
Why is this news? Just in case no one noticed, the Sharp Zaurus is a Linux PDA - You can compile pretty much any open-source Linux application for it, space and RAM permitting (both of which aren't issues, usually).
I guess the next headline will be about MacOS 9 running on the Zaurus via Pear PC?
Stardust capsule has landed, that is newsworthy, Newton emulation isn't.
The only ways Newton OS will live again is if someone actually develops the OS. Otherwise, it's just a dead piece of code. Developing it requires that either (1) Apple open sources it, or (2) Apple makes another product out of it, or (3) Apple sells it. I don't see any of those happening.
THIS is why I read Slashdot.
I have heard over and over that *nix is dead as well. And yet, it keeps growing. I suspect that Apple may bring this back in combination with ipod to take over the wince market.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I fully admit its old by todays standards. That is the reason i did say that updating would be needed if it was to be re-relased. Need to support modern networking, color, compatibility with current day mail systems, etc. It was/is a sound design, but hasnt been supported in many years so its bound to fall behind.
Even with the old ones however, there is still a die-hard fanbase. And the OS is *still* better then winCE. NewtOS was designed from the ground up to be on a PDA, unlike CE, which is more of a desktop OS shoehorned into your hand.
But i guess most of this is moot, we wont be seeing another Newt model come out.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
first post
Although it is not production quality, could this bring a future to the Newton platform? No, as everyone else has been saying. Just because an old OS is being emulated on new hardware doesn't mean it will bring a future to it. Other dead OSes, such as System 7, have been emulated on the PSP,Macs and PCs but I don't see that having any 'future'. Isn't it a but of a stupid question? The Newton OS is great - I have two Newtons and an eMate which all run the Newton OS, but its been dead ever since Apple discontinued the Newton products in 1997 and it won't ever be alive again, sadly.
Otherwise, how could an outdated OS come back to life like this? When was the last time that an emulator brought an OS "back to life"? You can argue that such emulators as Mini vMac or Basilisk II or even SheepShaver brought back some interest and even some use to pre-X Mac OS, but did they bring it back to life in the way that people starting developping for that old OS again?
No.
You just got troll'd!
I'm sorry.. but one dead PDA (the Zaurus) emulating another dead PDA (the Newton)? This is technological necrophilia at it's worst. The Newton is dead and so is the Sharp Zaurus. What we need is the features of the Newton that we liked put into a new hardware platform at an affordable price. Linux still has some growing to do before it really becomes a solid PDA platform - and the fact that there is no major company backing that any more won't help it's cause. And Newton died because of the overengineered buggy OS and the rediculous pricepoint. Think about it - the Newton MP2100 was 1200 bucks. You can buy some nice laptops these days that run CURRENT OSs. And personally I'd rather run SuSE10 or even XP than the NewtonOS (which as been dead for 8 years now).
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
Do you listen to Alice Cooper's "I Love The Dead" while you're doing this too, by any chance? Y'know there are GREAT PDA's out there that do that without having to twist and tweak them into *making* them do that... You should look into them.
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
Why emulate the Newton and why complain about CE or Palm... If you can get Linux to run on the PDA, then you know enough about the hardware to write a new OS for it.. Why not have a community get together decide what you like about he various OSes, and then make a new one, make an interface that does what you want. If you think Linux is the right choice then start there, but write a new interface to sit atop it. Why is it that all you ever are posts about how great the newton was, and how lousy Wince or PalmOS (or Pocket PC OS or whatever MS calls it now) is. You have the tools out there. If the current products are so bad, make a better product...
It's still being developed in Japan.
vi ~/.emacs # I'm probably going to Hell for this.
What kind of resources does this take? Like, in terms of RAM, CPU, how much space the whole package takes up.
I'm basically asking because I'm wondering whether the next step could be to port this same emulator to the Nintendo DS.
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Yeah, but will it run Newton?
Someone please mod the parent down. Even if moderators believe it is correct (which is debunked in replies), it is certainly not "insightful" to say "nuh uh".
I think people who don't actually know much/anything about the Newton are missing the point here.
Of course the Newton is not "coming back". Its fate was sealed when Apple shut it down but refused to sell the technology.
But at the Newton conference yesterday one speaker said, "I've been trying to replace my Newton for almost ten years now." The audience agreed. But the design philosophies behind the Newton (continued in Mac OS X) have kept it ahead of unambitious crap like the moribund Palm OS (talk about dead--*that* OS sure won't remain in use for a decade after it gets discontinued). And in these intervening years Newtons have remained in service and the data on these things has even continued to accumulate.
Is the Newton coming back? No, it is not. But what Einstein means is that it may be able to STAY AROUND for a couple (several?) more years until the industry can come up with something good enough to actually replace it fro the people still using them.
It's cool to be able to emulate old systems
A few months back, I got a gig working for a school district. They provide all their techs with Dell Axims runnning the PocketPC OS. I took it with me out on my first runs, and started using it's Notepad to scribble down some things I needed to remember - like IP numbers, teacher names and room numbers, computers that I had to fix - the same way I used to use my dear old Newt2100. No resolving, just straight "ink" scribbbles. I opened my notes later, and found that my scribbles had been re-arranged on the page - words moved, numbers scrambled, and in some cases, data completely deleted.
The next day, I showed up with my Newton, and I have never lost another single scribbled note. I haven't touched the Axim to take another note since. I still keep it charged up and stuffed in a pocket for wireless stuff, since my Newton only does 64 bit encryption, and the schools use 128, but that's the only use I have for that thing.
Come to the University of Mars! Classes starting soon!
Maybe, but will it run OSX86?
Must be the crappy handwriting recognition everyone talks about. My brother's name is "Victor."
Anything would be better than the Zaurus' native PIM applications.
That brings up an interesting point: Why are they trying to emulate the Newton on a Zaurus when they ought to be doing so on a Nokia 770, since that's the thing most similar (in size and capability) to the Newton? (It's just too bad the Nokia doesn't have an expansion card slot that can be used for devices, like PCMCIA or CompactFlash.)
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
This soundslike an interesting hack, but the website leaves alot to be desired. There's a tar.gz download but no explanation of how to get it up and running on a Zaurus. Also, it would seem to me that this is going to be pretty damn slow, emulating the Newton (a 68k series processor I think?) on an ARM running Linux at around 200MHz. OpenZaurus already is a bit slowon my SL-5500. I'd think you'd do better to port the Newton 'Look and Feel' to OpenZaurus or one of the other Linux PDA platforms.
but will it run windows?
.... I thought it said that Linux had been ported to the Newton. Damn,
I went to the WWNC yesterday just for an hour to see the Einstein session (NewtonOS on ARM Linux) and I must admit, that I was highly impressed. I used the Newton from before the beginning (Sharp Newton!) up to the Newton Messagepad 2100. Then I switched to PalmOS, because I wanted a smaller form factor and now to PocketPC (Windows Mobile 2003 and 5) for the VGA screen and possibility of running VoIP clients (Skype, SIP). But every day I use PalmOS and PocketPC, I wonder how it is possible that a 10 year old device like the Newton2100 works so much better than anything I have today. So if I have a chance to run NewtonOS on any modern SMALL device, I will do it in an instant. BTW: I have some coverage of the WWNC (and Macworld Expo SF) on my blog at http://teddythebear.blogspot.com/
"...could this bring a future to the Newton platform?"
No.You know, I can (and do) emulate the Apple IIGS and IIe on my PC (and Mac, for that matter) with production-quality emulation software. So?
Would anyone be stupid enough to suggest that a dead platform like the Apple II, even well emulated, gives it a future beyond that of a "novelty project?" I think not.
Emulated NewtonOS is no different.
It will just make Newton's past longer.
Would an Amiga emulator give Amiga a future? Would an MSX emulator give MSX one? Oops.. There are already Amiga and MSX emulators...
Sorry, Newton-ers. Life is not fair.
http://www.dieblinkenlights.com
You could scribble "lunch with bob monday" and it would start a calendar event, and bet that you meant the next monday, at noon, and the bob you referenced the most frequently, and you could correct it if you meant some other bob...
And that was 1.0 My palm can't do that today. neither can my mac.
"Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
When I bought it I knew there would always be plenty of good free software for it because of the huge open source linux community that would be writing apps for it.
I got to try a Newton a few years ago and I was very impressed with how accurately it could figure out my bad handwriting. I've heard some people say the newton was not good at this, but the one I tried did a hell of a job.
Now there's an emulator for it I wont have to buy one off ebay just to play around with it some more.
I don't know how well the Newt OS compares to modern Zaurus OS, but Newton OS was very good, and it is most likely still suitable to today's needs. The handwriting recognition was good, as were all the pda features. You could record (lots of) voice into it. It would have been useful to people like attorneys organizing recorded testimony. It supported pictures and internet via modem. It had a book reader, which I enjoyed using. Games. Lots of other stuff too.
The OS is not the reason the product failed. It failed because the Newton business model was not consistent with the Newton's hardware/utility model.
The Newton was designed to be a replacement for a pad of paper at business meetings, with the advantage that the infrared feature allowed for efficient data dissemination between Newtons. For that reason, the "Newton vision" worked best if enough people HAD Newtons. Other applications would have been "field computer" for researchers, doctors or soldiers.
But the Newton was too expensive ($600-$1000, 1997), it was a little too large/heavy, and for all its processing speed (strongarm 166 Mhz risc) it didn't have a COLOR touchscreen. At the time, Palm had 1/2 to 1/3 the size, less cpu, less hardware features, and 1/2 to 1/3 the price. So Palm captured the low end, and laptops took the high end. Newton's nich just never caught on.
That's a postmortem of the product. The cost of the hardware design didn't work with the business model because the utility nich was too narrow. That's what set it back.
Newt OS was lovely, and had nothing to do with the demise of the product.
"Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us." -Jesus Christ The Lord's Prayer
People,
...
...
:)
I often recall a commercial about the Totsie Roll Lollipop.
Kid asks the Owl, 'how many licks does it take to get to the middle of a Totsie Roll Lollipop?'
And the Owl offers to try it out, he counts"
(licks lollipop once) One,
(licks lollipop once) Two,
(bites lollipop once) Three,
Now those of you who have reported the death of the Newton OS, or Stated as a fact that the Newton OS is dead are like this Owl...
Within your finite understanding (everyone including myself fall under this statement - just some know more) Other than the almighty God of course...
If you state that the Newton OS is dead but can not point out anyother PDA out there that's better and can complete even simple tasks any faster or better - then I'd have to ask you to check your logic why the Newton OS is dead. Just because Apple dropped it doesn't mean it's dead... for Apple maybe... or you...
Many may point out Negatives in this discussion - however the few pointing out that the Newton is still alive and has now a new lease on life with the possibilities of having New Hardware now! are stating a fact that no one has proven otherwise.
The Newton still as a whole has in my opinion no competitors. New PDAs (with their Base OS) have not yet even figured out a way to do a simple task of entering a schedule any faster or better than a Newton. What good is a Newer, Faster, Smaller, Color PDA if it can't do things better? Only to promote the adage the Boy with the Most Toys at the end wins...
I dont' SEE any PDA or even some Desktops or Laptops that can preform the following challenge within the prescribed minimum steps require to complete this task on a Newton (and I use a MP110 Clear Case with NOS 1.2.00 as an example... not even the best of the Newton Family - BASE OS ONLY!) - even with add-on applications they fall short of this
IF those of you with a notion the Newton is dead should first try doing the following challenge on Par with the Newton or better (less steps and better intuitively) then you can have a bases for your statements... IF not be silienced... and check the Newton out thoroghly before you case you nay vote.
Using my CLEAR MP110 (BASE OS without anything additional application or enhancements installed) this can also be done on an OMP or MP100 IIRC.
These are the steps needed on a Newton to enter a schedule for a meeting.
1) Turn ON Newton (additional steps if a password is used)
2) Tap Assist (Assist Window Opens)
3) Write, 'meet mom at 3pm 1/17' (Schedule Window Opens: all the information appears filled in)
4) Tap Do
5) Tap Schedule (It appears in the Newton Dates (Calendar)
DONE
Right out of the box I don't see any PDAs able to do this, even desktops and laptops have a hard time doing this with so few steps... or with the ease or intuitively... (count everystep, not a group of steps as one... I used only the steps needed to enter this one schedlue entery... Get back to me when you do find something able to even do this simple task so readily
Which other OLD DEAD PDA OS from that time period is still being used and can accomodate WiFi, Bluetooth, and possibly other things in the future...
Being that the old Newton adage, "Newton's don't die they just get new batteries" is now "Newton's don't die they just get new hardware" we have a new future with endless possibilities on the horizon !
My SL-C3000 came from conics.net for what I thought was a great price. Very fast service too!
Wish I had waited a month or two to get the 3100 but I'm still happy with the 3000.
Q: How many Newtons does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A: Foux! There to eat lemons, axe gravy soup.
spoonerize "magic trackpad"
That's a cool hack. Here's another, speaking of the Newton, from an interesting e-mail about porting one of the early versions of Java to the Newton. See the last paragraph.
New Zauruses get released often in Japan, two models in 2005. They don't release them in the US for the same reason that many other new technologies don't get released in the US: US consumers have a reputation for preferring middle-of-the-road, mainstream, tried-and-true products at very low price-points. As soon as the soul has been ripped out of the Zaurus and it is available via Dell, Walmart, or McDonald's, US consumers will begin to shuffle toward it like Night of the Living Dead zombies.
The way I see things, a system is not dead unless 0 people are using it. Its relative. If 1 person is using a system (I do mean using it... as in not just keeping it around to look at it from time to time), then that system is not dead to that person.
... go check out nekochan.net if you disagree. And anyone who argues that NeXT/OpenStep is dead... they're the most wrong of all death vocalisers. MacOSX is probably the fastest growing platform on the planet at the moment (although not largest compared to Windows installations). MacOSX *is* OpenStep after it recieved that breath of life I was writing about above. Mac OS classic is closer to death than OpenStep (and thus NeXTStep) at this point. The only thing that changed (for a while) was the hardware that MacOSX/OpenStep 'v5' was running on. And now, with MacOSX running on Intel in the public eye, OpenStep has triumphantly returned to a platform it had to abandon (publicly) when it was bought by Apple.
It makes a lot more sense to say a system or community for a system is dying than that it is dead.
Newton as a platform has not yet died. It is dying, I feel, in that the size of the community is shrinking (slowly mind you). But there is no pre-determined date or time when the platform will be dead. Since there is no guarantee that a platform will totally die, moves like putting the software onto new hardware don't resurect the platform as much as breath new life into it. I understand that issue of actually acquiring these Sharp Zauruses and as such, this particular event may not be as large a breath of life as, say, porting Einstein to a Linux tablet PC available for purchase in Europe and the US. But this is something. If we put Einstein on a Zaurus, then we can put it on lots of things. Maybe this is just the start of a long awaited CPR session.
Newtons are not yet dead, I still use mine, and the NewtonTalk mailing list is very lively with lots of people who actively live life through their Newtons. Some of you reading this may think that people who still rely on Newtons are pathetic, but swallow your arrogance and think, for just a moment, that perhaps not everyone lives the same as you do nor lives on the edge of the technology curve. Perhaps some people care more about getting tasks done the way they want/need to do them than being cutting edge just for the sake of being cutting edge.
People say that Amigas are dead. People say that BeOS is dead. People say that SGI is dead. People say that NeXTStep/OpenStep is dead.
I see that all of these platforms are still very much alive. The communities may be smaller than they once were, but I would posit that perhaps the smaller communities are much tighter and more energetic than they were when they didn't have to depend on eachother for advances in the platform. Amigas are still getting updated operating systems (Pegagsos I think is the name). BeOS/Haiku is still under development and the community is still quite lively on BeShare at least. The SGI is far from dead
People who call a platform dead should spend some time in the given community, with an open mind, before making any such declaration. Cutting edge enthusiasts are welcome to be cutting edge enthusiasts, but we all need to stop and consider that different people have different priorities and points of view.
From my point of view, NewtonOS is not dead.
I think Apple knows of the value of the Newton OS. The success of the iPod can be mirrored by introducing a PDA-Cell looking and acting like an iPod.... with the beauty of the NOS. This year! my fellow Newton friends!
Rumours of the Zaurus' demise have been greatly exaggerated. They are alive and well. A few companies (such as mine) import the latest models from Japan and sell them converted to English.