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Forecasting Doomsday

Boccaccio writes "James Lovelock, the planetary scientist famous for his Gaia Theory, writes in today's Independent of his belief that it is already too late to divert an environmental catastrophe which will see much of human civilisation destroyed. Fearing it too late to be green, he instead suggests communities plan for survival in a Mad Max type world with limited resources ruled by violent warlords. "We have to keep in mind the awesome pace of change and realise how little time is left to act, and then each community and nation must find the best use of the resources they have to sustain civilisation for as long as they can." He suggests we should be writing a practical guidebook printed on long lasting paper containing "the basic accumulated scientific knowledge of humanity.""

16 of 854 comments (clear)

  1. Paul Ehrlich Anyone? by MarkPNeyer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    People have been predicting the end of the world due to environment destruction for years. What gets me is that most 'intellectuals' will scoff at christians but listen seriously to these people.

    --

    My blog
    1. Re:Paul Ehrlich Anyone? by RexRhino · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What he is trying to say is that the same people who reject pseudo-scientific concepts like "intelligent design", seem to be willing to accept equally laughable pseudo-scientific concepts like "Gia Earth Theory". People only seem to get indignant about pseudo-science when it conflicts with their political beliefs.

  2. Obligatory Richard Pryor by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 5, Interesting
    In regards to climate change, and those who deny it:

    "Who are you gonna believe? Me, or your lying eyes?"

    Just getting off a week of +5-10C weather, in January, in Toronto. (40-50F for the Americans.) That is really, really atypical.

    So is the 28 days of rain the west coast just received.

    So is the 13 feet of snow in Japan.

    Its unsettling.

    --
    If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
    1. Re:Obligatory Richard Pryor by Irish_Samurai · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Don't you find that? Nearly everyone I talk to about the weather, at some point, shakes their head and expresses some concern about how it 'used to be' vs how it is now.

      Even though you acknowledge that this is andectodal, you are ignoring a significant part of that.

      The human body has no way to "remember" a sensation. You can recall what you were thinking at the time, how something affected your emotions, and partially the things you saw. What you cannot actually do is get your body to "refeel" a sensation.

      When someone remembers the past they tend to look at it in a chronological order, beginning from when they were a kid or from where they are now backwards. The interesting thing is that the younger you get, the more impressionable you were. So a really cold day ends up being even "colder" in your memory. A really hot day was even "hotter". Add to this ones tendency to mythicize their own past and past winters suddenly become "much colder than today."

      Also, the winter clothing we had back then sucked compared to what we have now. The jacket I used to wear has nothing on the coat I wear now. I barely feel the cold. But back in the day we just didn't have the technology we did today in manufacturing outerwear.

      Another thing that someone else already pointed out is, we didn't set any records. There have already been hotter days and colder days. We're just extra sensative to the weather these days because the media is constantly screaming "global warming" and now, "We're all gonna die!"

      Back when this wasn't of such a concern to us, we wrote off unseasonal weather as a godsend, everyone was happy for a cool day in summer and a warmer day in winter. No one remebers a moderately ammusing weather anomoly.

      We have really only been keeping track of weather for a short time compared to the age of the earth, be it either on ID time or Evolution time. A few hundred years of data, not all of which we can confirm, and some VERY new abilities to model weather kinda accurately do not give us a rock solid base from which to start modeling our future doom.

      I mean, come on, these guys can't even predict next day rain with complete accuracy. I'm not going to buy any weather forcasts aimed 20 years down the road.

  3. My theory... by Bazman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    You know the anthropic universe principle? That the universe seems fine tuned for life? Well I have another theory that is that yes, the universe is fine-tuned for life, but its also fine-tuned so that life has a remote chance of making it off the planet and colonising the universe as seen in science fiction. The universe is in fact fine tuned just so that it can create sentient life that can consider its mortality, dream of conquering the cosmos, but then not being able to because fundamental physics just gets in the way...

    I call this the misanthropic universe principle...

  4. Re:Doomsday can come only from governments by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "There is so much land available in the entire globe that I don't see how warlords can use the strength of weapons to take over"

    Useable land? Enough useable farmland to support 6 Bn people? Along with the fuel needed to get the same kind of return from the land that we experience now, including distribution of the food?

    I suggest you read Jared Diamond's Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed .

    Good insight on the topic.

    My point is that faced with a growing population, uncertain sustainability of our current food production methods (e.g., how can we do it without fossil fuels to rely on for production and distribution), and reduced supply of both arable land and waters suitable for food production, how can we expect to keep everyone fed? And if we can't feed everyone, how will disputes be resolved? My guess is through warfare. State action in some cases, "Mad Max"-style in others. If the drop in food production is extreme enough, modern states will collapse, and the "Mad Max" vision may come to pass.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  5. Re:I disagree.. by tgd · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When 2/3 of the current food-producing land in the world no longer can produce food, I think the billions who starve to death may beg to differ about "feel[ing] the pinch", but that might just be me. After all I was miserable in my last meeting because it went a half hour into lunch and I was starving.

  6. Global Warming and the Ice Age by Zobeid · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Just ask any geologist. . . The Earth is in an Ice Age. Actually we're in an "interglacial period", which is what we call it when an ice age pauses and the ice sheets retreat for 10 or 20 thousand years, then they advance again. In the 1970s several climatologists looked at the available data -- solar cycles and records, precession of Earth's orbit, etc. -- and concluded that the interglacial period was about to end, and the ice was going to come back Real Soon Now. They started warning their governments about the need to prepare for a colder climate, shorter growing seasons, dropping ocean levels, etc.

    That was before all the talk about global warming began, of course.

    And yet, their data didn't lie. What some climatologists are beginning to figure out is that global warming -- from greenhouse gases emitted as a by-product of human industry -- came along just in time to hold back the ice sheets. It began with clearing forests for farmland (which released carbon), and raising livestock which produce methane. It accelerated with the industrial revolution, and all the coal that was burned. Up to that point the greenhouse gases were roughly staving off the natural cooling trend.

    Then, in the 20th Century, we saw an explosion in the burning of oil and gas for power. That's when the global warming effect began to outstrip and overwhelm the natural cooling trends. Today we have a climate that is definitely growing warmer, alarmingly so. And yet. . .

    If we were to cut off greenhouse gas emissions today -- either on purpose, or as a result of our industrial civilization's collapse -- it seems likely that it wouldn't take long for the current situation to reverse. It certainly ought not take 100,000 years for the global climate to recover from our CO2 emissions. Like it or not, we are still in that ice age, and we'd soon feel it.

  7. Re:Doomsday can come only from governments by Fordiman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's similar to the way things could be nicer worldwide. If, for example, everyone donated $0.25, you could cover the world's landmass with 802.11g WiFi and have enough left over to make it solar/wind powered, impregnable, maintenance free, and, aside from the $0.25, completely free to everyone.

    Similarly, if you donate $0.25, you could cover the world's landmass (6km granularity) with solar-powered atmospheric H2O/CO2 reclamation facilities. The would quickly offset the global warming problem; with less CO2, and more importantly, less water vapor in the atmosphere, you have less heat trapped and less H2O being produced to trap it. For that cost (at $0.25 per person, at 6km granularity - 3km radius per unit in a hexagonal array, the possible cost of a unit is about $400), you could rig seasonal fuzzy logic (unit is at lat 45, temp is about 66 deg, it's january. Turn on and start drying the atmo; we're too warm and wet right now.), to maintain the balance after the problem is repaired. Not to mention the possibility that a district could relocate its excess water to more needy places for cash.

    'Cept, you'll nevr get it done. Too many people would argue against either ("Free WiFi to all would hurt industry!" or "We have no idea what reducing moisture and CO2 levels could do to the environment!"). That's where it all falls apart, really. Doing such things would require both a full understanding of each project (to quell the naysayers) and an organization willing to actually act in the public interest (unlike government, which acts more on a pluralism of cash-backed interests).

    That's where it all falls apart really. To truly understand such projects, you need to actually do them, and there aren't any organizations that act purely in the public interest. Thus, you'd have to find a way to make the projects tangably profitable for all people.

    Oh, well.

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  8. Re:Pop Scientist Melodrama by AoT · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Everytime I hear comments about "alarmists" I think back to the beginning of Asimov's Empire and the way Hari "the raven" Seldon was treated.

    Most people wish to live in a world where everything is going to end up ok, where science will save us, where the doomsday predictions are not true. Not that this necessarily mean he is right; but we do need to take this with some amount of seriousness.

    It could mean the end of modern civilization and the death of billions, not something to be dismissed lightly.

  9. Locklock is missing a few points. by amper · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Disclaimer: I credit SimEarth with indtroducing me to Locklock's theories. :)

    Lovelock is a very smart person, and he may in fact be correct about the fate that awaits us, but the reasons for it may not be the particular concerns he's raised. For example, the most prevalent theory that I have seen regarding climate change is that "global warming" may actually have the more immediate effect of "global cooling" in the form of interruption of the thermohaline cycle in the Atlantic Ocean. It would be really helpful if we could figure out if we need to move north (as Lovelock seems to suggest), or south in the face of a cooling trend. These theories are well born out by the archaeological record.

    Second of all, it really disturbs me that so-called "greenhouse gases" still receive the majority of the blame for climate change in the first place. I am firmly of the belief that heat emissions may be just as much of a concern. It's not only CO2 and other pollutants coming out my my tailpipe...there's a whole lot of heat released in the process, and it has to go *somewhere*, and even nuclear energy leads somewhere down the chain to thermal inefficiencies.

    If you take into account the theories surrounding the Peak Oil phenomenon, we begin to see a more complete picture of what the coming decades may hold. Many people seem to think that technology will somehow save us from ourselves. How then, can we continue to make such great technological innovations in the face of a scarcity of energy? The flip side of this is that as the effects of Peak Oil become more prominent, it is highly likely, if not assured, that we will see a massive reduction in both heat emissions and greenhouse gas emissions. It is only the availability of cheap and plentiful energy, primarily in forms which are relatively easy to transport, that has enabled the massive cancer-like growth of the human population and the resulting positive feedback loop of resource depletion in an environment of fixed bounds (barring interplanetary/interstellar colonization, an idea which is vanishingly unlikely, Earth is all we have).

    There is also some evidence that a global increase in CO2 concentration is causing a global increase in vegetation, though much, if not all of this, is mitigated by our increasing resource depletion. It seems to me that the real question that Lovelock may not be able to yet answer is, "How quickly can the planet regulate itself, and exactly *where* are the "control points" beyond which the regulation fails?" I would submit that we cannot know this, even though we can look to the archaeological record for evidence of past self-regulation, the exact effect of human "intervention" in the climate remains unknown, even if we can be assured that it must inevitably have *some* negative effect.

    As regards the "Max Max"-like society--remember that a man can only possess that which he can successfully defend. Community is a basic human need, though in the future we may find our communities much smaller than we once envisioned. It would not surprise me in the least to see the human population decrease over the next century by a factor of 1,000 (5-6 million people worldwide). Such a population could probably be easily sustained, even in the face of extreme climatic change. However, it is likely that we may revert to feudal, or even pre-feudal, societies in an attempt to preserve what remains of civilization. Of course, this is quite the pessimistic scenario--perhaps, with what we now know after a couple of hundred years, give or take, of technological innovation, that we can maximize the efficiency of pre-Industrial Revolution ways of life so that we can ensure the survival of many more. The real question here is, "How much have we forgotten?" The discontinuity of human history created by the Technology Revolution may mean that while we better understand things at the micro level, we have forgotten how to operate simpler forms of existence at the macro level. How many blacksmiths are there these days? Farmers? Sa

  10. Re:Film at Eleven by DannDana · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Heh, don't forget the 70's panic over the impending ice age. While now we keep hearing about the destruction of all life on earth due to global warming, in the 70's the "doom and gloomers" were screaming and yelling about the destruction of all life on earth due to falling temperatures and expanding glaciers.

    Interesting how the panic has changed in just 30 years.

  11. Re:I disagree.. by RobertF · · Score: 3, Interesting
    When 2/3 of the current food-producing land in the world no longer can produce food...

    I'm sorry, but honestly, where did you get that number? You make up a scary-sounding number and get modded interesting. If I went around saying that 2/3 of the women in the world are dieing to sleep with me, people would call me a loon. (Har, har). But talk about enviromental disasters and people gobble up every word.

    --
    And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be bannana-shaped.
  12. Re:Pop Scientist Melodrama by Theatetus · · Score: 4, Interesting
    1) it's never too late to avert an environmental disaster; it just costs more the longer you wait.

    It was too late for the Easter Islanders the moment they cut down their last tree. It was too late for the Norse in Greenland once they ate their last cow. Those were, admittedly, isolated ecosystems but there still will always be a point of no return beyond which a species is not viable in an ecosystem -- even a worldwide one.

    --
    All's true that is mistrusted
  13. Re:Doomsday can come only from governments by dada21 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Actually, I've come up with a really good solution for government. I call it a unanimocracy.

    There are three rules in Dada's Unanimocracy:

    1. No law can exist with a unanimous vote of the populace -- direct democracy in ultimate form.
    2. All laws sunset after 6 years.
    3. No future laws can change any of the 3 basic rules.

    The unanimocracy will likely produce 7 different levels of government: Federal, Regional, State, County, Village, Community, Household.

    If 300,000,000 voters can't pass a law unanimously at the Federal level (let's say minimum wage), then they can try at the Regional level (3-4 states maybe). If those 40,000,000 can't pass a minimum wage law, they can try it at the State level. If those 10,000,000 can't pass the law unanimously, they can try it at the County level, and so on and so on.

    Some laws may only exist at the Household level. Some might be only at the County level -- and counties will compete for similar-believing citizens.

    Most laws will never pass at the Federal level. You might have "No murder" laws at the Federal level, but you sure won't have "No using drugs" or "No prostituting" laws at even the State level. If a law DOES pass, in 6 years it fails and must be repassed by the new voting bloc.

    This is hereby known as Dada's Unanimocracy.

  14. Re:true enough but... by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Incendiary foaming at the mouth "warnings of planetary illness" do our overall chances of mitigating the reality of human-caused global warming no good either. Extremists undercut the message for anyone more moderate, and more likely to actually effect change.

    I understand. And agree, to a certain extent. However I cannot help but fall back on the idea that extreme stories and happenings (assuming for the moment they are true) reported on people from the likes of the Royal Society deserve a modicum of credit. In other words, say the author is an eccentric genius, taken to fits of bombastic verbiage. Hey may also be right, and while you can call him bombastic, he does not deserve to be summarily dismissed based purely on writing style. Does that make sense? In other words, he might be a foaming-at-the-mouth incendiary character who may well have a point; it is up to me to see past the language and investigate/weigh the claim.

    I'm also sympathetic to the view of the earth acting like a living organism, in fact you can make the same argument for the whole universe. But because it looks like that doesn't actually mean it is a living thing, although I'm not sure how you'd define it at that macro a level...

    The question is whether it actually gives a shit whether or not it's hospitable to life. As a member of the Church of the Utterly Indifferent God, somehow I doubt it. It certainly will be a problem for us though.

    You reminded me of an Onion article: "God Wonders Whatever Happened To That Planet With All The Monkeys"

    --
    If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.