Cringely on Domestic Eavesdropping

krygny writes "In this week's The Pulpit, Robert X. Cringely presents some interesting factoids he uncovered in his research into the NSA's domestic surveillance. He makes no judgements but offers some interesting stuff you might not have already known." From the article: "Intercepting communications for purposes of maintaining national security is nothing new. From before Pearl Harbor through 1945, EVERY trans-Atlantic phone call, cable and indeed letter was intercepted in Bermuda by the Coordinator of Information (COI) in the White House and later by the Office of Strategic Services (OSS). Sir William Stephenson revealed this in his autobiography, A Man Called Intrepid. They literally tapped the undersea cables and shipped all post to Europe through Bermuda, where every single call was monitored, every cable printed out, and every letter opened. FDR and Churchill needed intelligence and they took the steps they needed to get it."

Comments

I know this is all important, but

[Council]

Robert X. Cringely presents some interesting factoids he uncovered

I couldn't help but laugh when I learned, earlier today, that the word "factoid" technically refers to an untrue piece of information that is accepted as true due to repetition in the media.

In a profound stroke of irony, the incorrect definition of 'factoid' (a small piece of information) has become the prevailing one through repetition in the media.

Re:Tell ya what everyone

[TheNoxx]

The project ECHELON was a collaboration between the American and British intelligence communties and authorized by the FISA court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISA_Court), not by Clinton; ECHELON also began operation well before 1992, when Clinton took office.

Fighting FISA goes hand in hand with Bush Sr. and his young boy.

Re:Short memories

[quarkscat]

I call "BullShit!" on the parent poster.

The ECHELON program is still being used today, except that the Bush regime has expanded it from it's original mission statement of "Intercepting Overseas CONINTEL" to "Intercepting ALL CONINTEL, Including Domestically Against American Citizens".

The US Senate committee that began (01/20/2006) investigating this illegally expanded program revealed that the Bush regime's CONINTEL program has been directed against domestic political opposition, including a Quaker anti-war group in Miami/Dade County.

These are not the actions of a democratically elected government sworn to uphold the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the rule of law. These are the actions of a regime that siezed power illegitimately in November 2000, and has been using the unchecked and expanding power of the Executive Branch to not only wage an illegal foreign war, but also to consolidate and maintain a totalitarian regime.

That book is not an autobiography

[chris-chittleborough]

William Stevenson's book, A Man Called Intrepid, is about the activities of Sir William Stephenson and other intelligence leaders during WW2. It is not an autobiography; in fact, it is not really a biography.

(This book was one of the first published after the Ultra secret, Colossus, Bletchley Park etc were declassified 30 years after WW2. It's a good read, full of fascinating information. For instance, did you know that Rommel's success was largely due to the U.S. State Department? It may still be one of the better single-volume histories of Allied intelligence during WW2. However it is not—how shall I put it?—a book that a good historian would use as a primary source.)

The book does say what Mr. Cringely says it does, but it's alarming to see him describe it as an autobiography.

Educate Yourself

[CrazyDuke]

Educate Yourself I suggest you take some rugged individualistic responcibility for your own education.

From Article II (the presidency) of the US Constitution, the sections that define presidential authority:

Section 2. The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.

He shall have power, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, to make treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, shall appoint ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, judges of the Supreme Court, and all other officers of the United States, whose appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by law: but the Congress may by law vest the appointment of such inferior officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the courts of law, or in the heads of departments.

The President shall have power to fill up all vacancies that may happen during the recess of the Senate, by granting commissions which shall expire at the end of their next session.

Section 3. He shall from time to time give to the Congress information of the state of the union, and recommend to their consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in case of disagreement between them, with respect to the time of adjournment, he may adjourn them to such time as he shall think proper; he shall receive ambassadors and other public ministers; he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed, and shall commission all the officers of the United States.

Here are the parts related to Executive Orders:
"He shall from time to time give to the Congress information of the state of the union, and recommend to their consideration such measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient;" . . . "he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed, and shall commission all the officers of the United States."

In other words, he can recommend stuff to the legislature for consideration. Make orders to insure the laws are executed faithfully. And order his underlings to accomplish that task.

The only possible strech for this to be a law is if you believe this government is a dictatorship, in which case the legislature and the judiciary are his underlings and he can order them to do what he wants, with the power of the military behind him. Is this what you want?

Re:Yeah, great, guess what

[frost22]

FISA can't take powers away from the president that he is granted under the constitution.

This is basically a renewed version of the theory of "Divine Grace". Absolute Monarchs in the 16th and 17th century argued that God had made them rulers by His Divine Grace, and therfore considered their power to be absolute and without limits. They were above all laws. Enlightenment and civil revolution finally did away with this nonsense.

Now you just substitute "divine grace" by "the founding fathers"

It is pretty embarassing that a sizeable part of the population in an enlightened country like the US whith a long democratic tradition suddenly adheres to such theories. If you want to know where such lunacy can end, look uzp terms like "Ermächtigungsgesetz"....

Re:Yeah, great, guess what

[Pike]

Try this on for size.

Some commentators have read the constitutional text differently. They argue that the vesting of the power to declare war gives Congress the sole authority to decide whether to make war. (6) This view misreads the constitutional text and misunderstands the nature of a declaration of war. Declaring war is not tantamount to making war - indeed, the Constitutional Convention specifically amended the working draft of the Constitution that had given Congress the power to make war. An earlier draft of the Constitution had given to Congress the power to "make" war. When it took up this clause on August 17, 1787, the Convention voted to change the clause from "make" to "declare." 2 The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, at 318-19 (Max Farrand ed., rev. ed. 1966) (1911). A supporter of the change argued that it would "leav[e] to the Executive the power to repel sudden attacks." Id. at 318. Further, other elements of the Constitution describe "engaging" in war, which demonstrates that the Framers understood making and engaging in war to be broader than simply "declaring" war. See U.S. Const. art. I, 10, cl. 3 ("No State shall, without the Consent of Congress . . . engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay."). A State constitution at the time of the ratification included provisions that prohibited the governor from "making" war without legislative approval, S.C. Const. art. XXVI (1776), reprinted in 6 The Federal and State Constitutions 3247 (Francis Newton Thorpe ed., 1909). (7) If the Framers had wanted to require congressional consent before the initiation of military hostilities, they knew how to write such provisions.

Finally, the Framing generation well understood that declarations of war were obsolete. Not all forms of hostilities rose to the level of a declared war: during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, Great Britain and colonial America waged numerous conflicts against other states without an official declaration of war. (8) As Alexander Hamilton observed during the ratification, "the ceremony of a formal denunciation of war has of late fallen into disuse." The Federalist No. 25, at 133 (Alexander Hamilton). Instead of serving as an authorization to begin hostilities, a declaration of war was only necessary to "perfect" a conflict under international law. A declaration served to fully transform the international legal relationship between two states from one of peace to one of war. See 1 William Blackstone, Commentaries *249-50. Given this context, it is clear that Congress's power to declare war does not constrain the President's independent and plenary constitutional authority over the use of military force.

Fundamental misunderstanding

[Software Cowboy]

Having been in the intelligence community (though not NSA), I think it is clear why people are confused on this issue. The administration is treating the "war on terror" as a literal war on terror. Under that definition, the President can intercept these communications to suspected Al Qaeda members as part of a military campaign. Many of the people who are up in arms about this are viewing the "war on terror" as an extended police operation. FISA clearly applies to criminal investigations. It is generally accepted that military actions in war time are held to a different standard.

I believe the courts will probably uphold the administration's version, since they are in many cases, choosing to engage those on the other end of the communication with military (deadly) force. I think if they were just trying to arrest people and prosecute them, the administration's case would be far weaker.

I don't know that it is as clear cut as those on either side say. We'll have to wait for the courts to decide.