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Britons Unconvinced on Evolution
pryonic writes "The BBC is reporting that more than half of Britons do not believe in evolution, with a further 40% advocating that creationism or intelligent design should be taught in school science classes. I'm a Brit myself, and I thought most people over here thought these views were outdated and lacked substance. None of my close friends give any credit to creationism or ID, but we're all well educated athiests so I guess that's to be expected. Maybe I've been blind to the views of the majority in this proudly secular country?"
"I'm against all public education systems. I don't believe they've worked."
I went to a public school (in South Central Wisconsin), and I think my high school education was excellent. I joined the military and worked in the private sector before returning to college. I wound up bumping into a handful of students I graduated high school with. None of us were upper crust material (I think I was in the 49th percentile). But Hobbs and I aced the math and physics classes, after 6 years of being out of high school.
Now, schools in the SC region of Wisconsin are some mighty fine schools. But if you head out to say, down town Milwaukee, the schools get larger and the education seems to decline. But I think this has less to do with the schools being public and more to do with class size and funding.
Public Schools aren't a failed system, over all it's a very successful system, look at the high school graduation numbers now compared to 50 years ago, look at the average literacy rates. Now, like any system, there are weak points and short comings, but we're not going to cut off your arm for a broken finger. Standards enforcing, proper funding and class sizes, and teacher reviews can all help improve the lesser schools and help educate our youth.
-Rick
"Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
I like to think of it this way:
Evolution: Shit happens. Sometimes it's good shit. Sometimes it's bad shit. We just have to live with it.
Creationism: God is all powerful and all knowing, and made everyting. He still does it wrong now and then because he's a sadist.
Intelligent Design: "God" didn't make the universe, but he enjoys meddling with it. Like a 12 year old with a chemistry set. (sure, that's not the way that the proponents really see it, but if they want to claim they're not creationists they need some way to differentiate it)
Try as I might, I'm unable to use any of these three methods to explain Baywatch.
Excellent post... I was just discussing this the other night and concluded, if nothing else, schools should teach only reading, writing, and math. I would be inclined to include science and history, but that opens up some problems, in my opinion; these are the classes that can teach values that parents may not agree with. Especially selective use of history. I recently saw a middle school history book that literally had the entire middle section dealing with the U.S. Civil War removed. It was in the contents, but not in the book - and the pages weren't just ripped out, it came from the publisher that way. Very disturbing.
But I'd never given any thought to a "faster" public education... if you cut out all the crud, I could see how 11 year olds could be as advanced (if you can call it that) at math as 18 year olds. I'm not sure I agree completely with it, but it's very interesting.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Agreed - I have never heard anyone express this opinion in the UK, and I grew up in a prett fundamentalist pentecostal church.
As a particularly comical example of this, have a look at the recent Dover County court decision (Kitzmiller). In it, the ruling Judge wisely points at that amongst the advocates of intelligent design, there was essentially no agreement as to its meaning. In fact, one school board member continually referred to it as "intelligence design [sic]", another believed it was the same as creationism, another believed it only referred to the emergence of intelligence, etc.
"Stumble before you crawl"
Either that, or God is the kind of programmer who likes to create reusable objects.
Sorry, I couldn't help it
Finkployd
"If taught correctly, creationism does not necessarily imply one religion. It implies intelligent design meaning God, gods or advanced aliens. And why shouldn't it be taught? If evolution is scientifically sound, can't you present sufficient evidence in the classroom to prove it? Or are you worried that *gasp* some people might prefer to continue to adhere to their faith?"
Exactamundo. Except science and faith are two completely different things. Science is descriptive and predictive based on a sort of majority rules perception, faith is belief in something that exists beyond our perception. Once something exists in our perception, that aspect passes into the realm of the scientific. What makes evolution science is that tangible things that exist in perceptive reality have been discovered that support the theory. ID is presented as a faith issue, because (and feel free to correct me if you think I've overlooked something) the arguments for it are either purely abstract exercises with dubious logic or attacks against evolution. I mean dubious in a purely logical sense, and I freely admit that logic does not necessarily apply to faith. But it's the cornerstone of science.
"Growing up in America, I could never decide who had a greater missionary zeal: the Southern Baptists or the evolutionists, most of whom were not even fit to be called amateur biologists."
Here's where I may agree with you. How many that scoff at non-evolutionary beliefs actually know a real justification for evolution? However, most people can understand the two theories well enough to understand that one is faith and the other science.
At first I hoped that you really CAN tell the difference between a mathematical theorem and a scientific hypothesis.
Then I thought that if you did know the difference, then you were being deliberately deceptive when you compared them, which would be worse.
Ignorance is easier to cure, and less destructive, than dishonesty.
In the end, I guess, I hope that you really do know the difference, but were just not thinking when you suggested that they work the same.
Exam 4/C again. Maybe I'll do better this time.
All the problems with the Theory of Gravity are addressed by the Intelligent Falling theory.
Sadly, when I was younger and full of anger, I believed this as well. Then a little real world education woke me up. After meeting and working with some incredibly intelligent people in college and the engineering world that believe in religion, but are still logical, critical thinkers, I've settled down on my "if you believe in God you're a moron" hypothesis. I still have my atheist beliefs, they have their religious ones. But, being well educated, they understand how I came upon my beliefs. I am starting to understand why they believe theirs. Almost ALL of them that I've asked believe evolution should be taught in school, religion should be taught in church/at home.
"We shall party like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean." - HedonismBot