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Balloon Based Wireless Floated

AmigaAvenger writes "It was recently announced by Yahoo news that the Arizona based company Extend America will be testing high altitude balloon service over North Dakota to handle the duties of cell phone towers. Three balloons will be able to take the place of 1,100 cell phone towers, and will remain aloft for 24 hours. Plans call for the service to be sold wholesale to existing wireless carriers, and will include both voice and data service."

54 comments

  1. And... what? How much will this cost? by Pichu0102 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    First thing, why would they spend so much money on such hardware to power this when the equipment could be damaged in the air, and second, how long daily would people have to deal with downtime if these balloons are their only way to connect?

    1. Re:And... what? How much will this cost? by Thorin001 · · Score: 1, Informative

      There wasn't a price on the equipment itself, but they seem to expect that it will "fall in a lake or get run over by a truck" so it can't be too expensive. However, they mention paying a bounty in order to get people to return the equipment, that could get rather expensive after a while.

    2. Re:And... what? How much will this cost? by psychalgia · · Score: 1

      a lot of the costs associated with owning the land would be washed by this i would think, but what about equipment recovery. do they just say so-long? guess i better read the article.

      --

      ________________________________________________

    3. Re:And... what? How much will this cost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      this when the equipment could be damaged in the air,

      What's the significant of that part? Seems equipment can also be damaged on the ground; so I don't see why that's a factor.

    4. Re:And... what? How much will this cost? by voxel · · Score: 1

      Well, three balloons is like 1,100 towers... 1,100 towers is ALOT of $$$ upfront and to maintain.

      So, I would assume even if this service was 20 times more expensive than a single tower, you'd still want it more than human wants air and food.

      --
      Modesty is one of life's greatest attributes
    5. Re:And... what? How much will this cost? by Chrismith · · Score: 1

      Apparently they will pay bounties for people to bring the eqipment back. According to TFA, it can be used and reused "unless it lands in a lake or gets run over by a truck."

    6. Re:And... what? How much will this cost? by MindStalker · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well the numbers don't work out exactly that way. The figure comes from the fact that in south-dakota it would take 1,100 tower to cover the state, instead they are using 3 ballons. The state is very rural. You can be sure that 3 ballons would not be nearly enough if placed over an urban area, simply because while you would have the coverage area of NY with maybe 5 ballons, you simple couldn't handle the millions of calls with so few ballons.

      Either way in call volume one of these ballons may not even handle as much as a single tower and arn't attached to a hardline. But for rural areas were a tower simply does not make sense these ballons are a great idea.

    7. Re:And... what? How much will this cost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think out of the box. At least here in Norway there are many placed with bad coverage or just enough coveragee for the locals. Big happenings gather people and the telcos need better coverage quickly and cheaply. A mobile facility like this would probably be great.

    8. Re:And... what? How much will this cost? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      $55 for the balloon- and just thinking about it, I'd expect about $3000 (the price of 6-8 cell phones) per balloon. They're only relays to ground stations after all, not full blown towers in and of themselves (or else they'd have to be tethered).

      --
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  2. The summary seems... off. by heinousjay · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So they'll have to redeploy every 24 hours?

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    1. Re:The summary seems... off. by buzban · · Score: 1

      Yep. One set comes down, another one is aloft, and another is in the process of being launched.

    2. Re:The summary seems... off. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      So they'll have to redeploy every 24 hours?
      Yes, this would be a continuous process of launching balloons and retrieving the electronics after the balloons drift away or burst. But reading the article would have answered that for you.
    3. Re:The summary seems... off. by heinousjay · · Score: 1

      The article mentions the deployment cycle, but the 24 period is an invention of the submitter, apparently, so your quick answer also seems... off.

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    4. Re:The summary seems... off. by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Yes, this would be a continuous process of launching balloons and retrieving the electronics after the balloons drift away or burst. But reading the article would have answered that for you.

      Seems to me that would require nine balloons at any given time, not three.

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    5. Re:The summary seems... off. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Well, it would depend on the amount of time it takes to get a balloon to altitude, and the turnaround time before you can relaunch; I'd guess that if you need three balloons for coverage you can probably get away with just four in most situations, which leaves room for one of them to be landing or launching at any given time - although to provide redundancy in case one balloon fails, you should really have five.

      --
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    6. Re:The summary seems... off. by Walt+Dismal · · Score: 1

      I would expect every time there's heavy rain, a bad wind storm, or a tornado, the system will likely go down. Literally. Or some yahoo with a rifle and too much time on his hands.

    7. Re:The summary seems... off. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the balloons are traveling at twenty miles above the earth I don't think that there will be much chance of anyone, either yahoo or something else, to shoot it with a rifle.

  3. UFO by endlessvoid94 · · Score: 0

    Quick, call the police, there's a UFO above my house!!!

  4. Landing Zones by blogeasy · · Score: 1
    The balloons swell from six feet in diameter to 30 feet after they gain altitude. Once a balloon leaves the state, its toaster-size communications pod would jettison, deploy a parachute and fall to earth, where it would signal its position.
    I can just see these balloons falling in some interesting places like some guy driving 80mph down a highway and hitting one of them.
    "We'd pay some guy a bounty, put in a new battery pack and send it off again," Knoblach said. Schafer said the repeater could be used indefinitely "unless it lands in a lake or gets run over by a truck."
    Whoever finds it first! Maybe make a few modifications to it before we send it back up. Maybe a quick call monitoring addition could help. You never know who will get the balloon.
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    1. Re:Landing Zones by macklin01 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can just see these balloons falling in some interesting places like some guy driving 80mph down a highway and hitting one of them.

      That's a good point. Fortunately, the odds are low, especially given (by TFA) that it's being targeted at very sparsely-populated markets (e.g., North Dakota). Nonetheless, they'll certainly need to weigh the low odds with the high cost of such an event. (Huge legal liability, particularly if the driver is injured or killed, or if it leads to a larger accident.)

      Ona related note, for every balloon that goes up, there are two descents: one by the popped balloon, and one by the parachuting electronics. That's interesting, in that in increases the odds of hitting something on the way down. I'd almost think that it would be better to including a "popping mechanism" in the electronics package so that the deflated balloon and electronics come down at the same time. I suppose they'd be worried about the deflated balloon snarling the parachute, though. -- Paul

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    2. Re:Landing Zones by vertinox · · Score: 2, Informative

      I can just see these balloons falling in some interesting places like some guy driving 80mph down a highway and hitting one of them.

      Have you been to North Dakota?

      If someone falls out of the sky in either of those states, you've got a 99.9999% of hitting empty space.

      The other 0.0001% will involve you hitting a cow or maybe a pheasant bird ;)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota

      Population
        - Total (2000)
        - Density Ranked 47th
      642 200
      3.59/km (47th)

      Yeah, I spent more time visiting South Dakota, but they both pretty much have seas worth of open spaces... This kind of idea would probaly work, because most peoples closest neighbors might be 10-30 miles away. In towns its a bit different though, but if wide area coverage is what you are looking for, these baloons are actually a good idea for these areas.

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    3. Re:Landing Zones by Barryke · · Score: 1
      It reads wrong when you copy&paste it that way. Like the wiki article mentions this figures:
      Population:
      Total (2000) = 642 200
      Density Ranked 47th = 3.59/km (47th)
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    4. Re:Landing Zones by cooley · · Score: 1

      Thanks, it's been awhile but I was pretty sure more than 2000 people lived in North Dakota.

      --
      Just then the floating disembodied head of Colonel Sanders started yelling Everything You Know Is Wrong!-Weird Al
  5. bad weather? by DeadPrez · · Score: 1

    So what happens during a windy, rainy storm when cell phone use is highly important for emergencies.

    1. Re:bad weather? by gonzorob · · Score: 1

      Iowa gets free WiFi.

    2. Re:bad weather? by Ken_g6 · · Score: 1
      From TFA, the balloons will float above any storms.

      noblach is certain the balloons will work for cellular service in North Dakota -- even in cold or stormy weather. He said balloons were launched even during Hurricane Katrina.

      Up to 20 miles above the earth, well above commercial airliner pathways, steady stratospheric winds would push the latex balloons across the state at about 30 mph.
      --
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  6. Watch For Falling Cell Phone Repeaters by polaughlin · · Score: 1
    FTA:

    Once a balloon leaves the state, its toaster-size communications pod would jettison, deploy a parachute and fall to earth, where it would signal its position.

    "We'd pay some guy a bounty, put in a new battery pack and send it off again," Knoblach said. Schafer said the repeater could be used indefinitely "unless it lands in a lake or gets run over by a truck."

    So what happens if it HITS a truck? Or a small child?

    --
    pat o.
    1. Re:Watch For Falling Cell Phone Repeaters by statemachine · · Score: 1

      Watch for *rising* cell phone repeaters.

      Who's to say the balloon wouldn't get sucked into a jet engine on its way upward?

      Perhaps this company has a lot of liability insurance since it's a smaller object we're dealing with.

      But, more likely, the idea of this causing bodily harm directly or indirectly has been ignored and any discussion squelched.

    2. Re:Watch For Falling Cell Phone Repeaters by polaughlin · · Score: 1

      I doubt it's been ignored. My guess is they'll be dealing with some type of air traffic control for each balloon's ascent. It makes me shudder to think, however, that they would need "a lot of liability insurance" because of the thousands of humans cruising the skies every day. I would hope their design was a bit more proactive.

      --
      pat o.
  7. Why stop there? by Billosaur · · Score: 1

    After all the Hindenburg and her brother zeppelins were meant to ferry not only passengers but mail. Call this the next generation of airship communications, although using balloons. I had even thought of this a few years back; mount cell transponder equipment on blimps and have them hover over populated areas to act as relays for mobile phones and wireless Internet.

    But if you're going to go to the degree of high altitude balloons, why stop there? Satellites would be the ultimate answer. Ask Arthur C. Clarke. A globe-girdling satellite network along the lines of GPS but carrying voice and data. I know, satellite phones are big and clunky, but so were cell phones at one time. It's possible to get a satellite phone right now, though I doubt they are going to be as cheap as cell phones for a while.

    --
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    1. Re:Why stop there? by Enigma_Man · · Score: 1

      I think the reason why going with balloons is better at the moment is a balloon is a _lot_ cheaper than a satellite. Also, a balloon can cover one static area of ground, where a satellite has to be in geosynchronous orbit to achieve that, and that is a _long_ way away (22,240 miles). Lag time at that distance is definitely noticeable (about 1/4th of a second). Your other option to provide constant coverage of one area is to have a whole mess of satellites such that there is always at least one visible in the sky, which gets very expensive, because you essentially need to have global coverage in order to cover any one particular area.

      --
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    2. Re:Why stop there? by saskboy · · Score: 1

      The downside to satellite phones is the distance the signal travels to reach the satellite and bounce back to the destination, is great enough to cause a noticible delay. Geo-stationary [ery? I don't remember which witch is which] satellites I think can introduce a 2000ms ping time in Internet based systems for instance.

      Balloons would add fantastic redundancy, but I dont think would make a great primary server. They could however be great for people stuck where a tower can't give service thanks to hills.

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    3. Re:Why stop there? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      IIRC the round trip to GEO is ~1500ms. At least, that's how long I've heard it takes to get up to the satellite and back.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Why stop there? by Quadraginta · · Score: 1

      I think the problem with reaching geostationary orbit with a cell phone is good old 1/r^2, which is the rate at which power transmitted falls off with distance r from the antenna, roughly speaking. How far can your tiny 1 or 2 watt radio transmitter send its signal and be picked up by a reasonable-sized antenna? Not far. 22,000 miles is asking for a very sensitive (i.e. big) antenna in orbit, or boosting the size of the transmitter on Earth, or both.

  8. Extend wireless broadband to the last mile by planckscale · · Score: 1

    Sounds very good. Just 3 balloons taking the place of 1100 wireless towers sounds great. I would think they could provide wireless broadband. One question, if they're floating in the Stratosphere, wont there be a chance of mid-air collision with jets?

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    1. Re:Extend wireless broadband to the last mile by polaughlin · · Score: 2, Informative

      According to the article, they'll be floating up to 20 miles above the earth, well above commercial airliner pathways. And I'm guess they'd be in touch with some type of air traffic control for their ascent.

      --
      pat o.
    2. Re:Extend wireless broadband to the last mile by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 3, Funny

      The balloons will have a small sign to warn pilots: If you can read this, you're too damn close.

  9. US Army Cover-up Department Approved? by a5y · · Score: 1

    This is great... One of these balloons gets popped by a rare super-high-altitude pheasant and crashes to earth, and crashlands in Squeallikeapigboy, Mississipi.

    Long story short: balloon gets mistaken for UFO, pheasant gets mistaken for intelligent alien life.

    (I bet those Roswell aliens are rolling in their graves right now)

  10. Sounds like a test... here's what I'd do by MooseTick · · Score: 1

    "Three balloons will be able to take the place of 1,100 cell phone towers, and will remain aloft for 24 hours. "

    My guess is this is a test run. If the baloons aren't able to stay up for more than a day it would be a headahce to constantly deploy them. It would be nice to remove 1100 towers that easy. I've heard that a tower can cont in excess of $1M.

    Even if the baloons were pricy, it would take a lot of failures to cost as much as the towers do. If you could keep them up for a week to a month and only needed 3 baloons then I would have about 30 baloons available.

    I would have 6 in the air at any one time. I would have standby crews ready to launch new baloons at a moments notice. That would ensure connectivity, redundancy, and still likely be cheaper than the current system. It would also provide extra capacity in case a disaster happened.

    1. Re:Sounds like a test... here's what I'd do by arivanov · · Score: 1
      My guess is this is a test run. If the baloons aren't able to stay up for more than a day it would be a headahce to constantly deploy them.

      Nope. Average speed of the jetstream over the Northern USA at 20km altitude is above 50mph so the 1 day sounds quite real.

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    2. Re:Sounds like a test... here's what I'd do by polaughlin · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if you RTFA, it says that they will float until they leave the state. Once a balloon leaves the state, its toaster-size communications pod would jettison, deploy a parachute and fall to earth, where it would signal its position.

      --
      pat o.
  11. Is this practical in any way? by TheSkepticalOptimist · · Score: 1

    I mean, balloons to float expensive electronics.

    First, aircraft, think of the aircraft.

    Second, how much maintenance will this require. I don't think mankind has invented a system where gas can remain in an enclosed cavity for an extended period of time without expelling in some way ( or exploding ). If this balloon has to be pulled down every week or month to top it up with gas, will people generally like having their service interrupted frequently? This is opposed to a a fixed metal tower that doesn't need regular maintenance (can last for years without it). Also, too much maintenance will drive up operation costs making it not feasible (look at all them wind power generators in California, 2/3rds of them are down and being dismantled because the maintenance to keep them running became astronomical and time consuming).

    Third, how safe is this? Something tethered to essentially a string will probably be easier to sabotage, or be destroyed because of natural disaster. Just need a good pair of wire cutters and you have disrupted communications for thousands of people.

    Fourthly, has anyone looked at the whether patterns? Whether its by global warming or some natural cycle of global weather change, weather is becoming more violent and erratic over the last decade. Will this be an issue where the balloon is rated for category 3 storms, but gets hit by a category 5 storm, snaps off, and kills a family in their mobile home out in Arkansas?

    As much as it might be cheaper and easier to float some expensive electronics up in high altitude, having something requiring too much maintenance, too unsafe, and too easy to sabotage just isn't practical.

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    1. Re:Is this practical in any way? by polaughlin · · Score: 1

      Has anyone actually RTFA? Every point you brought up except the first one is address in the article. The balloons will be up for 24 hours a piece. They will not be tethered and will float until they leave the state. At that point, they'll float back to earth, be retrieved, maintained, and put bakc into the cycle. The whole package costs a mere $55. I don't think they're too worried about severe weather.

      --
      pat o.
    2. Re:Is this practical in any way? by flawedgeek · · Score: 1

      First: 20 miles up is approximately 105,000 feet. As of yet, the only plane that can reach that altitude is the Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird, and those things aren't exactly common.

      Second: The balloons are not intended to be pulled down and "topped off", they're supposed to be free-floating and come down at a set time. Also, it's pretty damn cheap to fill a balloon with hydrogen (yes, hydrogen, RTFA) and send it cruising. And if you look at it, 1,100 towers, conservatively priced at $250K each gives you about $275 million. Assuming that all the 642,200 people in North Dakota bought a cell phone, which they won't, it gives you a cost of about $428 per person, and that's just the startup cost. Say the electronics package costs $5000 at the start, and a $100 bounty is given for each one returned, and calculate a 50% rate of return, if 6 per day are launched, 3 are lost and $300 in bounty is paid, that's $1800 per day to operate the network, figure the cost of the balloon and gas is included, and figuring that 1/8th of the people in North Dakota have a phone, it's 2.2 cents per day per customer to cover equipment costs on the network. Still much cheaper than towers. Even if the equipment costs 10 times as much, it's still pretty cheap.

      Third: Your point is irrelevant, and you'd know that if you read the article.

      Fourth: These things are gonna fly above the storms, not in them, and even so, I'm sure a self-destruct sort of thing is gonna be incorporated so the balloons can be brought down in case of emergency.

      Given the reduced costs and minimal danger, it's very practical.

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    3. Re:Is this practical in any way? by RevWhite · · Score: 0

      Why would he read an article that would take less time to breeze through than it did to post his comment? That's not logical. . .

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  12. I wish they would deploy in the Ozarks... by hot+soldering+iron · · Score: 1

    We've got rolling hills and valleys that prevent short-to-medium towers (less than 250 ft.) from making a decent connection, lots of trees to help block signals, and not enough people to justify building tall towers. A lot of the landlines have 1970's equipment (24 Kbps is what I'm getting right now, sometimes it's worse), and no carrier wants to bring in cable or dsl (they say that we won't live long enough to see THEM bring it out here.)

    I'm only able to access streaming media/audio if I travel 20 miles into town, and get on the computers at school, and then I'm restricted by the schools' proxy servers, and the ability to store files/data on portable media (no burners in the machines).

    The ONLY option available is satellite internet, which is very expensive to setup and run and subject to a high rate of link failure (according to a friendly installer). We're a small captive market with no viable options, in the middle of the US. We NEED this. The few people I've talked to about this said that it would be great, but if the balloons are too low all the inbred assholes around here would think they were for target practice!

    --
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  13. Stratellites Better, I Think by DigitalRaptor · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think that Stratellites would be better, when they are finally deployed.

    One Stratellite will cover 100,000 square miles.

    They remain aloft for months at a time, when it finally does need service another is sent up beside it, they electronically transfer control to the new one, and the other descends for servicing.

    They are above the winds, airplanes, etc, and aren't dropping things every 24 hours like the balloons in the article.

    I hope they hurry up, I'm ready to subscribe so I can use the same internet connection at home, on the road, and at my cabin.

    --
    Lose Weight and Feel Great with Isagenix
    1. Re:Stratellites Better, I Think by DerekLyons · · Score: 1
      They [Stratellites] are above the winds, airplanes, etc, and aren't dropping things every 24 hours like the balloons in the article.
      Nothing is above the wind. (From their FAQ, I don't give 'em much of a chance. Not one single answer is scientifically accurate.)
    2. Re:Stratellites Better, I Think by DigitalRaptor · · Score: 1

      Time will tell.

      "above the winds" was just a general statement, more specifically they sit at 13 miles up where the atmosphere is so thin that any wind there is has little enough affect that it can be compensated for.

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  14. I guess RTFA is obsolete? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    most of the comments ask questions that are answered in TFA.
    Why is reading comprehension so bad?

  15. Why is reading comprehension so bad? by NoseBag · · Score: 1

    Because they're waiting for the movie.

    --
    Cloned foods give the statement "We had that last week!" a whole new meaning.
  16. so.. by Soviet+Assassin · · Score: 1

    there is another reason for people to say i sound high on the phone *grin*

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