Slashdot Mirror
All Aboard the Nerd Boat
Forbes is running an article detailing a most unusual cruise. 180 Computer Science profs were brought together on a Royal Carribean ship to talk about bringing computer games to the classroom. Despite the topic, there was a lot of serious discussion. From the article: "After Microsoft's Luehmann praised the technical sophistication of three new Xbox 360 games (Mass Effect, Too Human, and Gears of War), a silver-haired professor raised his hand and commented: 'You just showed us three very sophisticated and very violent games, and I'm sure they're good for something--though I don't really know what that is--but what I want to know is, when will you make a videogame that's really useful? When will you make a videogame that's going to teach my students chemistry?'"
Games are traditionally something that people do in order to relax and have fun. A game that teaches chemistry? It doesn't exactly sound like something I'd want to have a multiplayer deathmatch in...
Don't forget that videogames are a business. The developers make what the market wants (at least, that's the theory).
Baltika
What, this guy's never played Chemistry Hangman? http://www.creative-chemistry.org.uk/funstuff/hang man/hangman.htm I mean Come on!
nothing
That's one helluva idea for a game. :)
McGyver style.
The new engines would finally allow for that level of sophistication.
Create a database of 1000-2000 different chemical reactions, then give objects besides the standard "texture, lightness, weight" properties the property of chemical composition. Give player a lab to prepare stuff. Then let them loose on missions, using at first simple stuff like black powder, later play with transporting a canister of nitroglicerine across Manhattan in public transport, then do more advanced stuff, fill a building with hydrogen-oxygen mix, smuggle dissolved gold in fuel tanks, etc, all the cool stuff you can do with chemistry.
Cool!
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
When will you make a videogame that's going to teach my students chemistry?'"
Newsflash: Your students don't want to learn chemistry. They want to beat up the hooker and get their money back, run away from the cops in a flashy sports car, and unload an entire arsenal into the local shopping mall.
That's why Grand Theft Auto 3 is the most successful franchise in history, and Mavis Beacon Teaches Chemistry hasn't even gotten to the drawing board stage yet.
Talk about conflicting objectives! Small wonder the game developers doesn't succeed, or even bother trying.
I suppose DrugWars was more about economics than applied chemistry, unfortunately. If there'd been a meth-cooking section to the game, maybe we'd feel differently about it. :)
Anyone remember Rocky's Boots? I played it on the Apple II, and I'm not aware of an updated version. It was essentially a logic game, building machines from sensors, logic gates, and actuators. Think Mindstorms minus the physical Lego. It was a blast for a little kid to play, and taught some valuable concepts much earlier than I might've otherwise encountered them. But I haven't seen anything like it in years.
The question is a good one: Where have all the good educational titles gone? Perhaps now that violent games have proven they own the market, there's less appetite for trying something new and educational. Anyone?
Civilization taught me history and geography, Sim City taught me business and government, the Total War series taught me military tactics, the Sims taught me about relationships, Pro Pinball taught me, uh, how to play Pinball, Chessmaster taught me how to play chess and Doom taught me the proper use for a chainsaw.
Computer games taught me everything I know...
Love Exciting and New
come aboard, we're expecting you
The Love Boat
soon will be making another run
The Love Boat
promises something for everyone
Set a course for adventure,
your mind's on a new romance
Oh...wait...wrong boat...
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Why would Microsoft go on a cruise that is specifically designed to identify games as an education source, only to highlight and force-advertise their 360 lineup? It would be no less transparent if Sony showed off the latest version of GTA or if Nintendo showcased Mario 128. What do they have to gain other than a shallow attempt at advertising, and hopefully a few more consoles moved?
That said, the prof might be a little out of his element (I have a hard time finding a "silver-haired professor" being a gamer of any means, although that is a generalization and I could be wrong), but his question is at least somewhat valid. What is stopping someone from incorporating, say, chemistry elements into a crafting/spell casting system? Think Secret of Evermore (or World of Warcraft if you can't think back that far) where real-life elements and compounds create items and objects. True, it would be a transparent attempt (kind of like "The Bible Game" being nothing less than pure religion dressed up as a game), but would it really be all that bad? I can imagine at least a capable system involving some marginal knowledge, at which point someone *could* theoretically benefit and gain some knowledge.
This could be stretched further, but at that point it becomes difficult to pinpoint great examples. Describing true physics in a game using the Havok engine? Applying that mentality to space games in an attempt to teach some rudimentary physics, and possibly theoretical (string theory)? I dunno.
At the end of the day I'll admit I'm looking for my games to be fun, not giving me a lesson on something. Although I must admit, Civilization does a handy job of giving some background knowledge on key historical topics (if you take the time to read the blurbs, I mean, and I haven't played one since Civ2 so I don't know if the recent incarnations carry this data also).
I'm not scared of anonymous cowards.
180 profs bring a game into the classroom, 1 person uploads a walkthrough on the internet.
And I thought that "lectures" which are nothing more than powerpoint presentations were bad.
*sitting through a powerpoint lecture as I'm typing*
Am I open minded towards open source, or closed minded towards closed source?
I've heard this before from my dad who is a chemistry professor, but quite frankly, what is the _actual use_ of knowing chemistry? A vague idea about some toxic substances is the only thing that comes to mind, and that it pretty easily taught in games.
Tech, exciting and new
Come Aboard. We're expecting you.
Games, life's sweetest reward.
Bring your PSP, in case you get bored.
The Nerd boat soon will be making another run
The Nerd boat. Make sure to stay out of the sun.
Slather on lots of sunblock, your pasty skin we'll mock like Windows XP
...of number crunchers and the oregon trail. Schools have been doing this for a long time, this isn't really a *new* concept. However I do think it's a great idea to use games to teach kids things, it keeps them interested in the subject at hand unlike a boring textbook.
"When will you make a videogame that's going to teach my students chemistry?"
When you make chemistry fun, smart-ass.
Even better! http://www.creative-chemistry.org.uk/funstuff/brea kout/breakout.htm
Periodic table breakout!
nothing
They always left or obscured out a crucial piece of the bomb recipe.
So, the majority of users would be stuck, leaving a few of the more gifted and determined ones to work out the remaining details. Then you pray to Darwin that this minority takes reasonable precautions (your game should teach them that too).
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
"When will you make a videogame that's going to teach my students chemistry?"
Cause we all know THAT will make money.
Even if there was a good educational game available, there are other issues. Games are typically going to be banned across the board in a lot of schools. Getting approval for "this" game because it is educational, will be a tough sell to the school board/principal. They will worry about the slippery slope of approving one game. Next they will try to get halo approved for the Astronmy class, Gun for the history class, and GTA San Andreas 'hot coffe mod' for the sex ed class.
Computer games taught me everything I know...
So you didn't learn anything from Leisure Suit Larry? Come'on, that was chalk full of one-liners that are sure to impress the ladies!
-Valiss
Humans have a hard time making Chemistry interesting. How is a computer programmed by a human going to make it any better/more interesting?
...I agree completely. For the average person, chemistry is virtually useless. There are maybe 10 useful things at best in chemistry that the average person could use on a semi-regular basis. Literacy and language are the most important things; you've got to be able to read, write, and speak effectively. Math is probably the next most important, but the average person most likely won't need anything more advanced than basic algebra, and possibly geometry in special circumstances. There are situations where some trigonometry or even calculus can come in handy, but this would be very rare for the average person. Physics is also mostly useless for the average person, though obviously there are some useful things. It's sad, but true; the average person, for the most part, has virtually no use for any of the advanced sciences. I guess if as a whole we were more educated we wouldn't fall as much as we do for these stupid diet scams, e-mail spam, and cons in general. But then who would we pay minimum wage to wash our dishes, sweep our floors, and fight our wars? Society will always have its classes, for good or bad.
But with a few engine tweaks, I could definitely see Garry's Mod for Half Life 2 being adapted to teach lessons about physics.
"When will you make a videogame that's going to teach my students chemistry?"
Full-Metal Alchemist!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Most of my knowledge of history has roots in my countless hours spent playing Civilization or, later on, Age of Empires and Medieval: Total War. Games that teach you things hardly have to be boring.
Only because you were using those tools on the wrong objects. The crowbar in HL is not for breaking up palettes but is for brutally bludgeoning scientists! Beating scientists dead was one of my favorite self-invented mini-games for the original HL.
As for the chainsaw, you won't find a single palette for cutting in Doom. Why? Because cutting wood is boring, but violently splattering bits of demon flesh is a most spectactular use of a chainsaw. Now, I lack demons to try this on, but given the simple ease with which my scoutmaster's chainsaw sliced his thigh right open (not even running BTW) I'd wager that a chainsaw will give you the desired results when applied to a rack of beef ribs for your next BBQ. Just don't expect there to be much left to grill.
Note: I'm an engineer, the tinkering cousin of the delicate scientist, I would hate to see them come to crowbar harm. I only endorse the violent beatings of digital scientists as they don't so much postulate and experiment as wander about, too stupid to evacuate a facility that is overrun with zombie alien things. ;)
-- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
Anyone considered making a sex ed game? Tons of sub-games available:
- the whole thing, of course, is an RPG.
- singles bar = RTS
- you're a sperm travelling up the falopian (sp?) tube = racing game
- money shot = FPS
Features:
Support for force feedback joysticks.
Special item: +5 shield of latex.
Alcohols gives charisma bonus of 27% (not to the person drinking it though).
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
"Games are traditionally something that people do in order to relax and have fun."
No! That's ONE accepted definition of a game. A game can educate (it's called a simulation). The military uses games to educate. Same with business (what do you think simcity and the tycoon series taught?). Even healthcare uses games.
The nice thing with most modern games is that the tools are within everyone's reach. From FUN to making a movie, everyone (with talent) can create.
Just getting computer games to work correctly caused me to learn a lot about computers. I blame them for bringing out the geek in me.
It taught me about DOS. The difference between Extended and Expanded memory (Thus getting the graphics enhancements in Wing Commander to work. Damn you EMM386!). Taught me about Interrupts and their conflicts (sound cards and video cards). Taught me networking (latency, TCP/IP, WINSOCK, routing, backbones, Modems, etc). Later in life it taught me about DirectX, OpenGL, some Linux (compiling the kernel for sound, etc).
So maybe the content hasn't teached me too much, but getting them all to work has. All that whining by my mother, about me spending so much time on the computer. Though, its partially responsible for why I have an IT job.
There was a game that I played on my Amiga 500 with dragons. I forget the name, but you had to hatch dragons and raise them to be able fight other dragons and conquer towns and stuff. Anyone know the game I am talking about? Anyhoo there was a part of that game that you had to brew up potions using different heat levels and adding chemicals at different parts of the process, and not heating too much etc. Then using that potion on the dragon eggs or adult dragons with different effects. I remember one potion I made would, when used on an egg, would make the dragon diseased and very weak, but when used on an adult it would prolong the life of the dragon. I spent weeks playing with potions.
Currently I am working on a game (Educational software) for math that uses the traditional abacus to teach children from the ages 5 to 10. These games are entering the system, just very slowly as the traditional teachings are not being adapted properly. I find that the most lacking in the software is the children interacting with the teacher as a group, and a belonging to a class. But that is just my observation, most of the kids like the software and enjoy learning at their own pace.
- my $.02? - you can't have it...it's all I have!!
Not as much as they're supposed to, or could. Beyond that being the mantra of those trying to keep games like GTA on the market, the fact is that most educational software is teaching kids to "click here, then here," and kids aren't really understanding why.
That is a gross generalization, but in many cases it's true, and if you spend an afternoon with a child playing educational games, you'll start to see it. My nieces can blow through a Carmen Sandiego game in no time, but they couldn't tell you a single thing it was supposed to teach them.
We've got a long, long way to go.
I don't want to troll but I am shocked at whst seems to be the general assumption that games shouldn't be educational or couldn't be educational. Some books (or television shows or movies or websites) are entertaining, some are educational, and some are both. Why can't games be the same?
. html
Remember that all games are educational in a sense. They give you a goal that you cannot accomplish immediately but through repeated attempts and failures you build the skills required to acomplish the goal. And then they repeat that process over and over! I am currently working at a major university working on a federal grant to see how games can be effectively used in the classroom (the key word being "effective").
There really is a lot of work being done on this front. Check out this video of a lecture by three Wisconsin professors who have spent time researching games in the classroom. I think many slashdotters will find it fascinating:
http://wistechnology.com/media/accel_games/viewer
I'd like a one on one interview with her, if ya know what I mean.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
First, I'll add that to achieve a desired level of stimulation often (but not always) requires more complexity as time goes on, partly to continue being a challenge. However, I work in schools where many of the children are learning typing skills through games like "Tuxtype" and others.
Educational games can be one of the best ways to engage young people. Taking a child that is otherwise reticent to learn and making it 'fun' will have him or her suddenly wanting to do the activity, not realizing that her or she is actually learning in the process.
As for chemistry... I've seen some screensavers that show the arrangement of various molecules in common substances. Perhaps a play on this could be made into a game using a tetris-like meme or something similar? How about pokemon meets scrabble, where you can choose the molecule to combine, but a more complex arrangement may beat your opponent's 'hand' (similar to having longer words with less common letters).
The nerd boat.....
Will it visit the isle Aspergia?
http://www.aspergia.com/
Let's do a reality check.
People who want to use videogames to teach children chemistry are lazy. They don't want to TEACH, to actually make an effort and engage the kids in the topic. Instead, they want to pander to a certain demographic's desire to skate out on their studies, to make everything easy so they don't have to do any actual WORK.
The TRUTH is, this demographic isn't going to have the chops to learn chemistry ANYWAY. And you don't want to let them anywhere NEAR a freakin' lab. Matter of fact, you don't even want to give these people a TOY chemistry set! You'd be taking your life in your hands.
Some subjects are difficult. Chemistry, mathematics, physics, computer science... They are not meant for people too lazy to crack open a book and READ. Instead of trying to dumb these subjects down to meet the depressed interest level of the idiot masses, we should be identifying people who are interested in them and supporting them -- treating them as well as we treat athletes, for instance.
Of course, we won't do THAT. Heaven forbid. It's much easier to let Little Johnny pick his nose and noodle around with a toy molecule than it would be to inspire him and TEACH him.
Sheesh...
It (or a modified version of it) would be great for teaching physics principles like gravity, balistics and stuff.
Look, even if we're not teaching our kids chemistry, games could do a lot more to broaden our perspectives. Sometimes a good RPG plot will do that, but I really think the future is in simulation.
SimCity is wonderful, a great example, but its constrained by basically modelling existing systems; city dynamics. There was a middle school project we entered where we built scale model city in conjunction with a simcity city, some competition (our team never really got in gear, I dont think we even submitted), which kind of played off this effect; its a tool for bringing kids closer to reality while also creating a sense of play in the world. Although the SimXYZ genre really emphasized its groundings in the real world, some sort of psuedo-applicable nature, I think the real value is in the sense of play.
I think an Imaginary Foundation class open world system would really be one of the best gifts we could grant. Create some kind of open world filled with dynamic potentials. Games are all so finite, scoped to such limited domains for silly reasons like "play balance". I think if the goal were more to create a world than to make a viable game, given a little nudge, the players could do an amazing job of crafting their own games. Rather than playing a game, the player is in a slightly more exestential state of play, interacting with and shaping a reality around them.
The thing I still picture the most is what Halo was originally going to be. You've crashlanded on an alien planet. Now go, bring the war to these vicious alien skum, go kick ass lone deranger.
It might not people think about brainy things like chemistry, but creating a more authentic virtual world where players can really enguage... that's exciting. Players will do a far better job of creating purpose than some storyline, if you give them the world to do so.
Myren
3D Game-Based Filmmaking: The Art of Machinima (with CD-ROM) (Paperback)
NEWS FLASH
Videogame website GameFAQS shutdown for listing recipes for explosives. Full story at 11.