Slashdot Mirror
Finding Programmers to Build a Website?
jameseyjamesey asks: "I have a really good idea for an Ajax/Web2.0 website, but I have no idea how to code or put it together. I know what HTML, Java, PHP are but I have no idea clue how to code or program. Due to my demanding job, I also have no time to learn how to code. I have the layout, design, options, settings and method of making money all mapped out. Who can I talk to, and where can I go to work with someone to get my website developed and off the ground?"
Knowing the state of the industry and how much one has to compete for work, I think that you are going to get a lot of responses along the lines of "So where should I send my CV?"
but I bet you don't want to pay my rates.
Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
It's your lucky day. I'm a programmer analyst who would love to get a paying job. Email me! But only if you're ready to spend millions of dollars on this project and give me all the credit.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Be ready to have your inbox slashdotted with resumes :o)
will work for Karma
Just kidding.
Indiana.
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
I think you came to the right place if you're looking for people who can code sites using AJaX / Web 2.0 / XHTML / CSS / JavaScript / Java / PHP / Python / XML / RDF / RSS / iCalendar / etc.
I suspect that pretty much everyone else who reads /. (myself included) can do this for you. Honestly you're going to get bombarded with choices, and the toughest thing for you will be to figure out which ones are even worthy of a second look. As someone who sometimes competes in this arena, I can say from my standpoint that you're at a big disadvantage if you don't understand the tech yourself, as it'll be really hard to tell good work from bad work -- something like graphics design anyone can judge -- something like web programming is a different thing entirely. Get familiar with the W3C validation tools for XHTML / CSS / RDF / etc. and tinker around with multiple browsers. When you're looking at prospective designers' portfolios, run them through the validation tools and check them with multiple browsers.
A slight modification of the "Google it" answer: Open a phonebook. There are like a million companies that do this sort of thing. Find one locally, because you're going to want to talk to them in person. Unless you live out in the complete boonies, you've got some near you.
Once you get going, if in fact you ever do, you may find you need to hire people, etc. That's up to you, and basically a constant no matter what. But if you've truly got everything laid out, you can hire one of these companies.
Your problem is that if you are not technically competent, you can't tell a good developer from one that can talk the talk, but not walk the walk. Hiring developers directly is not practical. This is a handicap no matter how you slice it, but this approach minimizes the risk, if you do due diligence on the company you choose.
Oh, and I hate to say it, but it's a good 99% bet in my experience that if you don't know how to code or program, you do not have it all figured out. But hey, it's your dime.
You may be able to get some very smart students to work on it. The idea of getting to do something with AJAX and such sounds interesting to me.
Even if you don't have a local DeVry (if you are near a big city, you probably do, check their site: DeVry.edu), there are almost certainly similar things at other universities (public and private). Even if you can't get it done as a senior project/self study type thing (which would have faculty oversight to make sure it is done right/good design decisions), you could find some bright college students who would be willing to do it for very little money (compared to hiring professional programmers).
Short of that? There are websites that you can have people do your coding for you. You could try something like that, I suppose.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
So if you don't know how to code at all, how did you settle on that choice of infrastructure? I suggest you get the coder you hire to tell you what you ought to use to build your site.
The AC said:
1: phonebook
2: google
I would add:
3. http://scriptlance.com/
It depends what you want. Do you want to sit down with someone and talk over needs? Call some local ISPs and ask them for recommendations.
Do you want to find a big company on the internet to help you? Google has plenty. Hint: pick a few tasks you need to perform and search Google for how to do them. Contact the authors who give the best examples.
Are you willing to risk a little? ScriptLance has a large number of people who are qualified to do the work. You will have to wade through the sludge though.
If you are really brave, you could post your contact info here. There are certainly qualified web designers who post on slashdot. Heck, a year ago, I would have bid on this. Sounds fun.
Get an experienced developer with experience in software architecture and website development, then get several interns who are young, but promising. Give them a lot of exposure to every buzzword you can in this area so that they can get their resumes well underway. Most of them will consider it a bargain and it's a good way to train up a new generation of domestic coders.
I'd strongly recommend that you find a local university that has a master's program in Computer Science. Get yourself a couple of students to write the thing for you. You get good cheap help and they get paid more than the on campus jobs plus the resume fodder never hurts.
2 cents,
Queen B
HDGary secures my bank
Well I guess you don't wanna pay people... There's an article about recruting people to work for free on an IT related project. You would know if you searched on my site :)
Because if you could afford to just pay someone, you could just search google or open a phone book as a number of others have suggested. Personally, I don't do contingency work anymore because the pay is lousy. But if you've got money to spend, I'm sure we could get your website developed and off the ground in a jiffy.
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Sandib Ramakrisnakalisanje
RentaCoder. Well, Maybe.
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
Because they dont know how to program. If the only language they know is PHP, STAY AWAY!!. Find someone who knows multiple languages which include C/C++, even though they might never use it to program your web app they'll generally be a better programmer.
And no this is not a troll.
The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
I love Ask Slashdots when the answer is really to go to the oracle.
Honestly, there's web developers near you. We have websites. We know what we're doing. I'll do it if you're in my area - send an email to mudformike at yahoo dot ca and I'll get back to you. Give it to any of the other people who replied. We'll even tell you the language you should actually be doing this in for it to be sustainable.
ps - Web 2.0 is what we in the business call a "buzzword". It doesn't really mean anything and you can't program in it. If a client asked me to "program something up in Web 2.0" my fee would climb by 75%.
I've done a fair bit of web design and programming, both as a side gig and as a full time job. This said, there are a few things that jumped out at me from your post that I thought I would bring up.
The first thing is that you have to remember that good programmers are not alwyas good designers. Good web design is something that really takes a sort of knack to be good at, and there is not a lot of overlap between good designers and good developers. If you manage to find someone who is both a talented programmer and designer, expect to pay a premium. In most cases you will want to higher a designer (and possible even an artist seperate from the designer) to design the site- and then turn over the design to the programmer who will take the static templates and make them alive. While the designer and the programmer can to a certain extent work in parallel, it's important to remember that the design is the critical path because at some point the programmer has to have a skeleton to put the code into.
The other thing that jumped out at me is the specification that you want an AJAX/Web2.0 site. The truth is that if you don't know enough to code the site youself then you really do not have the information to decide the best way to code the site. AJAX and Web2.0 are both very vauge terms in themselves, and chances are that the AJAX parts of your site may only constitute a small part of the overall application. It's important to realize this because if you convince yourself that a project should be done with some combination of technologies A, B, and C then you may end up dismissing a better solution using Technology D, or end up with someone who only knows Technology A and will end up doing you more harm than good in the long run.
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
Just hold the programmers collection of original Star Wars action figures as collateral.
They won't try to mess with your idea, especially when you're holding those little light sabers in front of a running vacuum cleaner.
Just sell your slashdot id. You can make a few hundred grand. ;-)
Already bought it on Ebay, so it's not for sale.
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
1. A real engineer's time is worth 100/hr without headhunters.
2. Ask for rapid prototypes prior to any bids.
3. Ensure that the developers have extensive experience in the business or trade of the solution's realm.
4. Take care to never tie in to any proprietary technologies.
5. Choose the correct tools.
6. Make sure that the people developing the solution are focused on developing the product, not a framework for the product.
7. Know that with modern web development technologies, that product life cycles are completed monthly with milestones weekly.
8. Make sure that the development process is Quality based with regression tests and configuration management.
9. Be convinced that another team can easily manage whats developed at any time.
10. Ensure that requirements are documented to ensure whats to be delivered is well specified and keep engineering documentation light and only updated after major revs because it is constantly changing.
11. Ensure that the project lead is well versed in development AND networking.
12. Start the project by defining milestones and prototype the deliverables so you can easily track performance.
Theres much more to the SDLC depending on the requirements.
It doesn't sound to me like you've got the cash or experience to quit your day job and manage a to complete a successful software project. Ask yourself honestly what great thing you would contribute to such an enterprise that your "development partners" couldn't do it without you (and "the great idea" and "non-disclosure contracts" don't count).
I'm not trying to be harsh here, but I think you should probably give whatever money you do have to someone else to invest.
You always start with the Business Case. The Business Case states the objective of the project, the benefits of the project, and importantly how the money is going to work.
You need to map out the costs of the project. Consider the hosting costs, development costs, advertising costs, and your time!
You can even have a few different models - consider that the development might cost twice as much as you think!(IT projects always seem to cost twice as much as what was in the Business Case)
The Business Case also incorporates how you are going to make money. How long will it take to re-coup the project cost.
You also need to map out the delivery time for each portion of the project. Have at least monthly milestones (or weekly if you can)
Very very often your great idea doesn't look so hot once its all mapped out like this. At this point you make the decision to bank roll the idea or not. Let your wife look at it, and also maybe someone you admire for their business skills. They will give you feedback about your idea.
You idea doesn't have to make your rich - sometimes its just great to do something interesting!!
As for finding developers - again thats a question that I find very simple. All you have to do is hire one ! Good ones will charge at least $100/hour. It seems like a lot to you but when you are free lancing 1/2 your time is chewed up finding work. Most consulting firms charge 3 times what they pay to the worker. Thats just how the $ works out.
Go for someone local, interview a few people and find someone YOU can work with.
You have to be upfront about the contract. (Yes - you have to write a contract with this person). It can just be 1 A4 piece of paper with your company logo and details. YOU own the code! For $100/hour YOU own everything that they do - and they have to give you all source code. Give them 20% up front to get them started. On the first protype (at least most of the major functions should work) give them another 40%. The rest on delivery once you have checked everything works.
Once the site is up and running you are going to want to make changes. The best person to do this is coder you just hired. So keep a good relationship with this person. At this point you are probably going to hire them by the hour. Write down all the changes you want and get them to tell you how much each will cost. That way you can prioritise your upgrades. (This is called benefit analysis).
A good photographer prefers a good camera. Sure, they can still do way better with a plastic snappy than an amateur with a top of the line Hasselblad or Sinar. But there's a reason the pro prefers the good camera. Being a professional photographer requires a combination of the artistic skill and the technical skill. What if you need to photograph the front of building of several floor levels high, from ground level? Is your shot going to end up with the building appearing to lean backwards because you leaned up to get it all in the frame? You could step backwards if you have the space and waste most of the film area and get a lower quality image straight on. Or you can use a top quality large format rail camera that lets you shift a wide coverage lens with respect to the film plane. But you wouldn't use that large format camera for sports photography if you got a press pass to the Super Bowl. The right tool for the job is what is needed. The pros know what tool to use and how to use that tool.
Likewise, a good programmer prefers the right tools for the job, and knows how to use them. But not all programming jobs are alike. While a language like PHP works great for many and perhaps most web applications, a programmer whose skill is limited to just PHP is not going to know when PHP doesn't do so well, and certainly won't be able to work with something else when it gets identified as appropriate. A PHP programmer is likely limited in experience to get web programming, and won't necessarily know much about many of the backend process chores that might be needed for a full application that happens to have a web interface to it (as so many these days do). A programmer who has experience in a number of languages (it doesn't have to be a huge number ... 4 to 6 languages of a diverse variety is usually enough) ... AND has done actual development in those languages at one time or another, is the one that is best equipped to make architectural decisions about how to set up an application.
And how many PHP programmers know to, and know how to, organize their coding effectively, such as clear separation of logic and content? PHP makes it so easy to NOT do the right thing. When I was doing evaluation of Y2K bugs for a client on January 2000, I found that the vast majority of the bugs that did crop up were errors of lack of experience by the programmer, and errors of convenience (it was easier to concatenate "19" and 2 digits of a year than it was to add 1900 to a numeric value that represented number of years since 1900). Languages like PHP and Perl with their strong facility with strings made it easy for the inexperienced programmer to do the wrong things. The experienced programmer could work in the same language and do the little extra effort to get it right. Programmers of a language like C where the right way is usually easier than the wrong way (comparatively speaking) would have acquired knowledge of the right way (do the calculation, then present the results), and could apply it in just about any language (certainly in all the major languages).
If I were hiring programmers for a job for which something like PHP or Python was an appropriate language choice, I would still hold experience programming in C to be of value. In lieu of that, assembly programming would have some value, too. In fact, given enough experience with enough different languages actually used for real development purposes, I would even hire someone who doesn't even know the language the project will use, because it would be clear they could learn the language (it's just a tool) while bringing real world development issue insight to the project. That fits in with your idea of the coder that doesn't really know any language.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I can design websites (see my professional webpage), but I cannot understand this obsession with ajax... ajax here, ajax there...! I am fed up with Ajax and Javascript, and I believe they are bad for usability and compatibility. can you give me ONE good reason why one should use ajax instead of web standards and (if web interactivity is really needed) java?
Some of what you say is true, however...
'A 22 year out of college kid may know how to code some stuff, but they're VASTLY inadequate for medium to large sized projects.'
That's a gross generalization. There are kernel maintainers who are still in high school (last I heard, anyhow). I'm 22 and I've been using PHP to build CMS systems since I was 16, which is coincidentally when PHP 3 came out.
Young != inexperienced
Thanks.
RentACoder
I've used them for a few projects and always been happy. Some girl in Azerbaijan turned around some PHP code for me in under an hour, and it cost me $18. It was nicely documented and did exactly what it was supposed to do, which was to connect to two separate databases and transfer data from one to the other. Both DB's had different schemas also.
Just post your project, people will bid on it, and select the coder with the best bid/rating combo. Yeah, it's outsourcing since the best bid will likely come from another country, but if you want it done on the cheap, this is the way to go. The way I look at it is that I'm probably helping someone out who is in a less fortunate living situation than I am.
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