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Verizon Threatens Google's 'Free Lunch'

ILikeRed writes to tell us the Washington Post is reporting that Verizon is becoming much more vocal about internet firms using "their" lines to do business without paying extra. From the article: "The network builders are spending a fortune constructing and maintaining the networks that Google intends to ride on with nothing but cheap servers," Thorne told a conference marking the 10th anniversary of the Telecommunications Act of 1996. "It is enjoying a free lunch that should, by any rational account, be the lunch of the facilities providers." This, as lawmakers are approaching new legislation that could let telcos charge internet companies much more for the use of high speed connections.

13 of 724 comments (clear)

  1. Simple solution, in Google style by SeanTobin · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Just like DMCA-takedown notices that Google uses to highlight the fact that you are missing content (and additionally direct you to the content you are missing), simply put a banner on the search results for any Verizon customer that says something similar to:
    Your Internet Service Provider has intentionally degraded the speed at which this page loads. If you would like your search results at full speed, please contact Verizon at 800-483-4000.

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    Karma: SELECT `karma` FROM `users` WHERE `userid`=138474;
  2. Do google pay for bandwidth? by grahamsz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I know some organizations essentially dodge bandwidth charges by running their own connection to major peer points.

    The bbc certainly use that approach in the UK to keep their costs affordable.

    However in that case, then they are doing part of the ISPs job so it seems fair.

    1. Re:Do google pay for bandwidth? by MikeFM · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That doesn't mean it's free really. That means that both networks charge to connect to them and so when they connect to each other they cancel out the charges. If the tele companies are giving Google free peer status and they don't think it's a benefit to them then it's just stupid of them. Will they lose business if the network down the street has better access to Google than them? Very likely so if it's a noticable difference. Is it enough of a loss if that happens to justify not giving Google a break on the peering? Probably not. Bandwidth should be pretty cheap for the people that own the network - it costs almost as much to have the lines going unused as to have them in use. I'd imagine that most of the traffic between Google and others, through their network, is to somebody that is in some way their customer so they are making money by having Google there.

      As you said they are sort of being their own ISP and also they are providing a value to their peer network.

      --
      At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
    2. Re:Do google pay for bandwidth? by dekemoose · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, typically no money changes hands at peering points. Peering is the mutual agreement between two networks to share traffic. Typically this is because the the two networks believe that they will exchange traffic on more or less equal levels (in the case of ISP peering) or one of the networks wants easy access to something the other network has (as is the case with content providers such as the BBC peering with an ISP, the ISP's subscribers get access to the BBC content without having to go through transit routes that the ISP has to pay for).

    3. Re:Do google pay for bandwidth? by mozumder · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Google could come back and say "Hey verizon, since you're building an ISP business based on OUR investments, how about if YOU pay US money to provide better service to Verizon customers?"

      It could go both ways...

    4. Re:Do google pay for bandwidth? by Gojira+Shipi-Taro · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I console myself, given the climate in this crazy world, with knowing that someone crazier than me will start capping Telco Higher-ups in the back of the head if net access becomes unreasonably expensive as a result of these bastard demands.

      You're getting paid already, fuckers. Don't get too greedy. There's a lot of really smart people out there that you REALLY don't want to piss off. Remember the Unibomber?

      Think of a guy like the Unibomber that DOESN'T hate technology. I guarantee there'se someone out there like that who will be looking for Executives of companies that try to fuck the net for their own personal gain.

      Just something that worries me based on my studies of those types when I was in college.

      Smart people with a beef scare the shit out of me.

      --
      "Oh my God. This is terrible. This is the end of my Presidency. I'm fucked."; ~ Donald J. Trump
    5. Re:Do google pay for bandwidth? by Nikker · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually I think this is an intresting case. If this holds true then can telcos attain compensation for business calls as well. If I call my friend to say hi should I be charged a diffrent rate then if I make a profitable business arangement? Should top execs be charged a premium just to use a network? And if any of this holds true by what means could they be allowed to attain assurance of the severity or amount of the charge?

      Could this be a new cash cow? Imagine making even 1% on a company like IBM, HP or GE for each multi-million dollar deal made through means of telecomunication(pots, IP, cell,...).

      This could either create new accepted business methods or bring each company into the telecom game by buying a part of, or the whole "wire".

      --
      A loop, by its nature, continues. If that didn't make sense, start reading this sentence again.
    6. Re:Do google pay for bandwidth? by FireFury03 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, typically no money changes hands at peering points.

      But this is a contractural problem, not a legal problem. If Google peers with Verizon don't charge Google then that's their own fault for writing the contract in that way. They could write a contract requiring Google to pay for the peering (and Google has every right to refuse to sign the contract and thus the traffic will be transited through another network instead of peered directly).

      However, the ISPs are pushing for _legislation_ rather than just changing their peering contracts. The implication is that they want to be able to charge content providers who they aren't peering with (and thus have no contract with). I.e. if Google is connected to an ISP called "foo" and Verizon is connected to "foo" then "foo" can route the traffic between Google and Verizon - there is no contract between Google and Verizon and each of them is paying "foo" for a transit agreement to route the traffic. In this case, Verizon's _customers_ are paying for Verizon's transit agreement with "foo", but Verizon wants to be able to charge Google too. This seems wholley unfair since Google is having to pay for it's transit agreement with "foo" too.

      This is just another example of bad laws being pushed so that greedy corporations can charge parties they don't have contracts with without losing their common carrier status. (At the moment Verizon could block Google's traffic and require Google to sign a contract in order for them to carry it, but that would prevent Verizon from being considered a common carrier since they would be censoring content).

  3. Re:This Ain't No Free Lunch by TallMatthew · · Score: 4, Interesting
    ...and here I thought Google paid for their bandwidth like everybody else.

    More likely than not, Google and Verizon are peering with one another via a private line (which Verizon as a LEC would purchase for exactly $0). I seriously doubt either of them purchase transit via a third party. If anyone on Verizon could do a traceroute to google.com, that would shed some light.

    Verizon's probably worried that Google's on-demand video is going to usurp their own offering to their customers and that all the hard-earned cash they're putting into HDSL and video delivery systems is going to go to waste. If I can watch such-and-such on Google for $5, then why would I buy it from Verizon for $10? Google will likely follow Microsoft's lead here and price gouge, being they already have a superior delivery infrastructure that can service customers on all networks while Verizon's market is just their own.

  4. Really Easy Way to stop this nonsense... by Wolfstar · · Score: 5, Interesting

    All the content providers have to do is charge a "Bandwidth Recovery Fee" to any provider who charges them a "Bandwidth Usage Fee".

    For example, BellSouth and Verizon (the two biggies on this one so far) start charging Google for the "right" to provide content to their customers. In return, Google begins charging BellSouth and Verizon for the "right" for their users to access Google's service over Google's upstream bandwidth.

    The end result is that Google breaks even (because they can charge a small amount per customer for a massive total income) or pulls ahead on the deal, and Verizon either stays at the same spot they're in now, or they start losing money - either through losing access to one of the premier search engines on the internet, causing customers to start leaving in droves, or because they pass the "Bandwidth Recovery Fee" onto their consumers, causing everyone's bills to inflate noticeably, also causing customers to leave in droves for cheaper access to the same content.

    And while the above article mentions cable and telephone network providers, I've yet to hear Comcast, Cox, Charter, or Time-Warner start making noises in this direction. Mayhap the telcos need to look into cheaper ways to bring all the dark fiber out there online?

    --
    You thought that this sig was what you think that I thought you wanted me to think. I think.
  5. Re:No no no by Red+Flayer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "Their accountants would be thrilled if they could charge 4 times for the same product."

    I'm an accountant, you insensitive clod!

    No way in hell the accountants will be happy when they have to track additional revenue streams with a less than adequate increase in resources (as happens with big companies constantly). It's the shareholders, and the executives with lucrative bonuses written into their contracts, who would be happy to see this. It's not gonna make one iota of a difference to their accountants.

    Please don't associate accountants with corporate greed... we measure the wealth, we don't take it home with us.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  6. Re:Mushrooms by coolgeek · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'll play along too. =) Let's say a major corporation owns major streets in a variety of shopping districts in a variety of cities. Then they send out advertising to various shops, telling them of the opportunity to pay a fee and in return the corporation will go dig up the sidewalk in front of competing shops. Hell, they'll dig up the entire sidewalk except in front of yours and even provide teleportation services to customers of your shop. Of course, your competition can avoid all this if they pay the same fees.

    This bears striking similarities to a small enterprise I observed when I lived in an Italian neighborhood in New York during the late 70's/early 80's. There was a social club on the block, and the wise guys maintained an armed presence in the neighborhood 24x7. This made our neighborhood very very safe, which helped local businesses. No burglaries in over 20 years we used to brag. One time there was an attempted burglary. When the cops finally showed up 90 minutes later, the wise guys from the social club handed him over, bloody from head to toe. Poor skel apparently fell down the stairs while trying to escape. Anyway, this enterprise was financed by the shopkeepers in the neighborhood. To avoid having their windows broken every 3 weeks, they would pay a small stipend to the social club.

    It's funny, what the social club was doing could have gotten them prosecuted under RICO statutes. Actually, I'm pretty sure even conspiring to do what they were doing is probably illegal under those laws, but IANAL.

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  7. Re:Next: socialization by geekoid · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Considering the area and the number of people ot serves, the USPS is a damn fine intituion.

    Same thing for the roads. I've never had a problem with the dmv. In fact the service I hve always got has been courtious and prompt.

    I am not saying telcos should be socialized or not, just pointing out that the perseption of government programs is very often an incorrect one.

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