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UK MPs Approve Compulsory ID Cards
Idimmu Xul writes "BBC News is reporting that the UK House of Commons has approved legislation making identity cards compulsory." From the article: "The plans, rejected by peers last month, will now go back before the House of Lords. Tories warned of "creeping compulsion" and Lib Dems said the "fight against compulsory ID cards" would go on."
Actually it is only compulsory when applying for a passport. It will not be compulsory otherwise.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety are probably British and should be shot at."
>
> "And with the real problems people have today with identity fraud, which is a major, major issue; illegal immigration; organised crime: it's just the sensible thing to do."
Because having an identity card - that you have to carry with you at all times - is the sensible solution to the problem of identity theft. Because we all know that nothing you carry with you 24/7/365 can ever be stolen.
To be fair, in order for them to become compulsory, they'll have to go back and get legislation passed through both houses. Of course, anyone who gets their passport renewed will be required to get an ID card anyway (which in the UK is a large percentage of the population) so they'll be compulsory in everything but name.
Either way, it's a massive blow for civil rights in this country - they'll be storing obscene amounts of personal information, including the buzz-word of the moment, 'biometrics' in a central database that will need to be accessable by essentially every government department. Given this government's record for IT projects, I'm almost looking forward to the ID cards being introduced just to see how spectacularly the whole system fails.
"Sir, may I please see your ID?"
-Umm, I forgot it at home.
"Did you forget it at home or are you an illegal immigrant?"
-No, seriously, I forgot it at home!
"Right."
Officers club down suspect and drag him to jail.
I can only assume this is to counter illegal immigrants- and homeless people? Any regular citizen cannot not have an ID (job, bank transfers, rent etc).
Three rings for the Elven-kings in the sky
What the hell is wrong with England?!? You people invented modern democratic society and civil rights, and you've been happily flushing it down the drain, piece by piece, ever since the end of WWII. (Would you really be any worse off at this point if the Nazis had won?) Gun control, CCTV, now ID cards--every time I look at America's problems, I can always cheer myself up by remembering that whatever we're doing wrong, you're guaranteed to do something worse.
And what kind of politics have you got going now where the Conservatives are for civil liberties and Labour are the fascists? That's just bizarre.
Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
-kfg
I don't get it. Did the British learn nothing from World War II?!
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
They have already and mainly (from the debate that I heard) on the basis of this 'creeping compulsiom' - ie if you apply for a passport your name goes on the register, and then after a while a compulsory card is issued.
The British public were told this was an 'opt in' system. I have to travel abroad to work effectively. This gives me no choice at all.
I have already signed the No2ID refuse pledge, and I will do everything in my personal power to prevent myself from ending up with one of these.
I feel disgusted that my government feels free to treat me like a criminal in my own country. They want ID cards, they want to take my DNA if I'm arrested for a crime I haven't committed, cameras on the roads tracking vehicles.
If the Tories pledge next election to scrap the legislation altogether, I'll vote for them on that basis alone. And.. I just don't vote that way... but the Blairite government deserve a kicking for the way they've treated the electorate since they arrived.
I don't read your sig, why do you read mine?
ID Cards for the Brits, wait, here's why they can get angry!
From the Association of British Drivers press release: "The EU is already planning to use Galileo to enforce continental-wide road tolling, and the car-hating British government wants to be first. You won't be able to drive anywhere without the EU knowing where you are going, who you are travelling with, and what speed you are travelling at."
Animoog.org
.. and it looks great. What's this antenna sticking out of it?
Proof by very large bribes. QED.
I'm all for anything that will stop terrorism.
Anything? How about summary executions or travel document requirements for movement between cities? Maybe you would prefer racial profiling and detention camps? Drastic enough measures will stop terrorism, but at what price?
Find coupons in Greeley
ID cards? How pleasantly old fashioned. Wouldn't compulsory RFID implants make so much more sence?
unfortunately (or not depending on the law) the House of Commons has the suprime authority over all issues and can use the Parliament Act of 1947 to push a law through that the Lords reject after 3 tries to get it through regularly. the system is different in this respect; the house of representatives can't over-rule the Senate.
Still if you think thats a bad system the Prime Minister could pass the law overnight, all he'd need is to get the Privy Council (which is made up of cabinet ministers - some past and present - and a few others) to agree and then the Queen to sign it (still the Queen can refuse to sign any law and then it doesn't become law - a power which hasn't been used since queen Anne - but still exists). Then it'd be law tomorrow... and the best thing is we don't need to worry about the seperation of powers or people's rights... oh, wait...
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
It's the nature of governments to continually increase their power, and it's the responsibility of the people to limit a governments power to the absolute minimum required to fulfill its function.
Remember as well, when you give a government that you trust powers, you aren't just giving them the powers, but also all the future governments that you may or may not trust.
Why should I need to show papers to authorities when I'm walking down the street? Is the street theirs and I get to walk on it only at their sufferance, or are they my servants that exist to make sure that I can walk down the street freely?
Anything? How about summary executions or travel document requirements for movement between cities? Maybe you would prefer racial profiling and detention camps? Drastic enough measures will stop terrorism, but at what price?
Actually, I think "drastic enough" measures will increase terrorism. The harder a government clamps down, e.g. subjecting individuals to racial profiling, etc. the greater the pool of discontented and potential terrorists become. Its a positive feedback loop. The harsher they are the worse it will become.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
Article clearly states, right of the bat, that it's when you apply for a passport. So that's a point against hysterics.
:D.
However, it also states "...and will be put on a registry," so might as well leave the 1984 alarm running. Let's see:
Some random thoughts, concerns, questions for the crowd and more than a bit of polemic inspired by this latest tidbit in the Tony Loves George show:
This is effing ridiculous. Why not just rebuild the Berlin Wall, only turn the gun towers around t'other way? As Carmichael says in the linked article, "the only way to opt of the system is to give up your right to travel abroad."
Here's another amusing bit:
"Tony Blair was not able to attend the debate after his plane was grounded by engine troubles in South Africa."
Is this "engine trouble, wink wink nudge nudge"? He still found the time to utter that gem about it being "just sensible," and never mind all this Liberty rubbish... but maybe they felt it'd be easier to pass along without him there for opposition to focus against... or maybe he just didn't feel like getting yelled at today
(Before you object to any of the above speculation, please convince me that at any given moment, a plane actually cannot be found for the Prime Minister of Anywhere, and it is more secure to be a known grounded sitting duck? Right. If so, fire your entire staff now please, your life is in grave danger...)
Anyway. Interesting that the US and the UK are making two halves of the citizen lockdown; we talk about a US ID card, but first went ahead with the RFID passports. The UK looks like it stands a good chance of having the ID cards first. From there, it's pretty easy for each to point to the "success" of the other, and respectively pass their missing halves. Yum, compulsory RFID Citizen Cards.
Do you have a reason for crossing the border, Comrade? Why did you spend 3 hours at that truck stop, Comrade? Did you know you've been travelling with an Enemy of the State, Comrade? Please step out of the car now, Comrade.
Think that's BS? I wish. Sadly, only when more and more people who consider themselves the "normal" folks are being stopped and searched will they start to realize that maybe this isn't Liberty after all - if, of course, they haven't completed their indoctrinations into thinking it is.
As long as it looks like just black-wearing tattoed freaks and foreginers are being harassed, that's still Liberty, right?
Final, desperate plea/question to those who still doubt how this is going: Since when, in the history of Ever, has information been collected and compiled - and not used? Since when has power been sought and gained - and not abused? Explain to me how, exactly, you can collect and correlate so much data on so many private citizens with increasingly efficient and effective means of making it meaningful, finally - but when it comes to suspect uses of that information, oh don't worry, just trust them with no accountability or oversight.
"They wouldn't do that! They're the good guys!"
someone kindly wake up the great sleeping mass in the center of the country - they're used up all their Snooze button hits already.
That which does not kill us makes us... st
In the UK, we are suspicious of:
(1) The cost - that this is going to be a cash cow for the biometrics companies. The majority (if not all) of all UK government IT contracts, have costs that end up spiralling out of control, and have hefty cancellation fees. There is a fear that the government will charge an administration fee every time your address changes, and fine anyone who fails to update their address. Consider students, homeless people and contract workers who change address regularly.
(2) The invasion of privacy - governments departments such as the DVLA are already in trouble for selling personal information (names and addresses) to questionable private car clamping firms (with owners who have criminal records) who have sent threatening letters to car owners.
(3) The arguments for the need for ID cards have included: the ability to fight terrorism (although the home secretary admits it would not have stopped the London bombings), and the ability to fight social security fraud (although certain members of the public will be allowed to have two ID cards). If fraudsters are able to forge utility bills, passports, bank cards, what is going to stop them from faking ID cards?
(4) A good percentage of the population believe that the UK government has lost control of illegal immigration and is spending money on ID cards because they can't control the borders. And they can't target non-Christian religions, because that would be racist.
(5) Function creep - that the ID cards will be used for more basic services, such as booking flight, national train journeys and maybe even shopping purchases.
In any case, it would seem that France is also getting French ID cards
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Take a look at what is happening in Zimbabwe if they find out you vote against Mugabe's party. How about what happened to the Jews because the Nazi's knew there religion. Or how about Cambodia where the wrong shape head could get you killed? This isn't a Utopia, thing about how the information could be used in good times and in bad.
What's depressing about your point of view, is your think everyone is being worried for no reason. Simply because you didn't take the time, or use your brain to think things through.
The scary thing about this is not the card itself, it is the database that will be set up.
The bill calls for an Identity Register that will contain not only all of the information that is provided at signup, along with biometric identifiers such as fingerprints and iris scans, but also a record of every access of that information. Think about this - the database will know that your identity was checked by the doctor, the hospital, leaving the country, maybe even your bank or your employer. A corrupt official with access to this information could build up one hell of a profile about you. Got nothing to hide? Are you sure? This database could unocover whatever it is that you don't think you have to hide.
Before this bill there were specific laws that prevented government departments from sharing information in their databases because of potential abuse of it by government or otherwise. The Identity Cards bill demolishes those laws and establishes a database containing all of the information that was previously scattered around and impossible to link, and it shares that database with every government department there is.
A few months ago I pledged that I would not sign up for an ID card and that I would give money to fight it in court. Given that Passports renewed after 2008 will be accompanied by an ID card, the question I now have to answer is whether I should renew my passport 5 years early to avoid registration, or if I should become one of the first cases to fight in court as far as I can.
A latent existence
"I personally don't have a problem if a someone knows who many times I day I shit, what kind of tea I buy, what party I vote, etc. so I have real trouble comprehending this strange fear"
Please kindly reply to this comment with the following:
1) your full name and home address
2) a history of your shopping record, including times and dates so i can pattern match to see when your most likely to be not at home
3) Detailed purchase information from your local big box store so that when i come to your house and murder your wife, i can do it with a recently purchased like model knife or blunt object.
Honestly, the only people who are for mass databases really have no imgination.
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
As I wrote on another forum: they will make ID cards compulsary by clever manipulation of thicko MP's and public.
n ews&showtopic=671&st=0&#entry16962
At the time it is brought back to Parliament for compulsion, they will say, "The many billions we have spent so far is wasted and ID cards are not fully effective - unless the database is complete with entire population - as the thieves and terrorists are not registering".
You can see it coming a mile away.
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