Salary Negotiation for an IT Position?

HerculesMO asks: "I am a Windows Systems Administrator and work for a pretty large corporation. I know that I'm underpaid for what I do, and as such, I've been looking for another position. The problem is however, that a lot of potential positions ask for what you are currently making -- and it's a bargaining chip that the company I interview with will (and have) used to negotiate salary." Given that businesses usually base the salaries of new hires on their previous job, how can one arrange a fair salary if they were badly underpaid? "I'm currently in a series of interviews with a company that I really like, the work environment, people seem young and friendly (like myself), and the business is something I wouldn't hate doing. I'm well qualified for the work, and their director already likes me. I just feel that, if I accept the position, I won't be able to bargain my way up to the market rate for the position, given it's such a leap from what I currently make. In New York, many of the companies require the disclosure of salary so just 'saying no' locks me out of a lot of potential positions."

Comments

DO NOT LIE!

[Knetzar]

Companies can call, and sometimes will, call other companies and ask about your employment with them. They will try and get as much information as possible. Some companies will reveal your salary, and if that happens you're screwed.

Re:DO NOT LIE!

[mark_wilkins]

Maybe it varies by industry, but I can't imagine any company I've ever worked for doing this:

1) First, the company receiving the call usually won't want to advertise to their competitors how much they're actually paying for labor.

2) Second, most companies are sensitive to the fact that it could harm their interviewees if the company for which they're currently working knew they were looking.

3) Third, legal issues have put in place policies at most medium to large companies in the U.S. that prevent doing anything other than confirming that a person is or is not an employee. No references, no salary info, no personal info, nothing. (With references, these policies are often ignored, but salary info is a different matter.)

That's not to say that I think lying is the best approach. Chances are a given company has an idea of what their competitors pay for a given level of experience.

-- Mark

Re:DO NOT LIE!

[tangsc]

I had a friend who thought she was underpaid and told HR what the amount that she should have been paid instead. She interviewed well and liked the company and position. Unforunately, they wanted to see her paystubs before they officially gave her the offer letter. And when they found out she was lying, she got nothing.

Best thing to do is just tell them the truth, and explain why you might be paid so low. It happens, some companies pay low, and some pay well. You just got stuck at one that don't value the employee much.

Re:DO NOT LIE!

[AKAImBatman]

Unforunately, they wanted to see her paystubs before they officially gave her the offer letter. And when they found out she was lying, she got nothing.

I have a feeling that the amount she gave was unreasonably high. Every year we hear a new article that gives the average wages someone in our position makes. Unfortunately, many technologists believe these averages to be around their actual market value. That simply isn't true. Some people have exceptionally high wages due to being in an invaluable position. (Been there, done that, both glad and sad it's over.) These salaries drag the industry average upwards, creating data that would make it appear that most technology workers are underpaid. Thus workers often hope for unreasonably high salaries when they switch jobs.

However, a new job will almost never want to match those figures unless they really want you on-board. In your friend's case, her high salary may have been a strong indication to them that she is an exceptional employee. But if they're basing their evaluations on a high salary, they probably will want proof of it. Just imagine how poor she looked in their eyes when they found she had not only lied about her salary (somewhat bad), but had significantly overstated her wages? Yeah, pretty bad. So bad that their opinion would have immediately went from hero to zero.

Each job negotiation is a delicate process with no hard and fast rules. So there's no telling what may work better. Generally I'd recommend telling the company to give you an offer if you don't want to state your real wages, but sometimes that has the exact opposite effect of what you want. Even if you read the interviewer fine, he/she may not be the one who finally has to be convinced. (You may not even see that person.) So tread carefully, and realize that it doesn't always work out.

If you absolutely *must* lie, though, try to explain the differences as bonuses in previous years. They're a bit more difficult to check, and sound quite good. (Though you may have to lie even more to explain what the bonuses were for.) Of course, once a company has your SSN info, it's all over. You just have to hope that your future boss doesn't check your tax information and/or credit report before hiring. (Note that many companies check credit reports as a method of protecting against embezzlement and position abuse.) :-/

Re:DO NOT LIE!

[Anonymous Coward]

Some people have exceptionally high wages due to being in an invaluable position. (Been there, done that, both glad and sad it's over.)

This is very true - I was hired at a very respectable wage for where I was living - the job required a re-lo, which was paid for. I moved into a very rural area. A while later, my boss realized that I was mobbed and needed a clone. We hired someone (granted, without the knowledge and experience I had) at 1/4 my salary (not including raises I had aquired while being there) and I trained them myself. I still handle much more than that person, therefore earning the extra pay.

Regardless, I do not suggest lying, however, I wouldn't suggest being completely honest either. The bottom line is, if you don't want your potential employer knowing that information, don't give it to them. Politely decline answering the question. If they try to contact your employer, asking this information, let HR know that you do not want this information shared - I don't believe they can share that without your permission.

Just say this...

[mark_wilkins]

"I'm currently making $X, but I believe that's below the market rate for my type of work and I really am looking for more like $Y."

If $Y is a reasonable number and you stick to your guns, you can probably get them to offer it.

Alternatively, if you don't particularly care about being honest, you could always just say "I'm currently making $Y" and there will never, ever be any way they'll ever know the difference. However, I think the first approach is more straightforward and just as effective.

-- Mark

Just tell them

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell them what you're making, and make it clear that the reason why you're looking for a new job is because you're aware that you're severely underpaid. Make it very clear that you will not accept a salary below whatever the standard is, or whatever it is that you want. You're in an advantagous position here, you already have a job and are currently well established so you can afford to be picky.

Tell them what you're worth then get another job

[shodson]

Tell them how much you think you should earn. If they don't agree then go see what the marketplace will pay you by getting another job offer somewhere else. If you're seriously open to working at a new job then tell your employer you'll leave them and take the other job unless you get paid what you're worth, assuming you still want to work at your current employer.

Re:Umm... lie.

[moochfish]

That is the single worst advice you could follow. People jump around in the IT industry. The same people all know each other, or are friends of friends with each other. People may have met at previous jobs or even during interviews. If you think there is zero connection between your prospective employer and your current boss, that's a big assumption to make. If you think you can get away with lying, go for it. But if you get caught, you're automatically fired and burning all bridges with that company and its management. If things go really bad, it could also burn bridges with your previous employer if they find out you lied to. Yes, you COULD get away with lying, but you could also lie on your university app about what activities you were involved with. But just like with colleges, sometimes employers will run background checks on you at the last stage of the interview, and when you fail to produce that paystub, you're toast.

Re:Umm... lie.

[matt.fotter]

Don't do it. They call. Plus if you're looking at work with the federales, they will look.

I've gotten a lot of mileage out of a line I got from a WSJ Managing Your Career column a while back:

"I am hoping to receive a fair offer."

One guy I interviewed with even knew the article I was talking about and got some points for reading the journal.

But don't fib. It'll bite you in the ass.

Re:Don't tell them

[mikael]

In some places, talking about salaries is bizarrely taboo

Because when some companies advertise for jobs, they put out a lowball offer first, and gradually ramp up the salary until they start getting bites. Consequently, that type of workplace will have a wide range of salaries - some engineers might be earning more than managers. To avoid any kind of workplace uprising, the discussion of salaries is taboo.

Tell them your salary, it empowers you

[moochfish]

A common misunderstanding is that NOT telling them your salary helps you. I believe that is wrong. First of all, many companies will immediately shut you out for not disclosing that. It can also leave a sour taste in the interviewers mouth if you continue to resist the question. Also, it might make the employer think you got paid an embarassingly low salary, which doesn't help your cause either. I mean if you were getting paid like a champ, you'd mention your salary to make sure you can get paid even more.

You make it clear - very clear - that your current salary is too low and that is a big factor in why you are looking for a new job. Sure, you might be able to fight for a raise and get it, but it's still too low. That means their offer has to be even more than what one raise might net you. You're telling them that if they low ball you, you aren't taking their offer.

Whoever throws a number out first sets the tone. If, for example, you make $55k, but want $60k, but you make them say a number first, there are scenarios where you can end up fighting an uphill battle. What if they offer you $50k? What, suddenly you're willing to disclose your old salary and tell them their offer is too low? Then all that talk about it not being "relevant" goes out the window and you look like a fool. And now you are stuck fighting your way *up* to your goal. Instead, had you made it explicitly clear your currently salary is FAR too low, told them what it is, and asked for $65k, then you place them in the position to have to fight their way down to $60k.

If you don't tell them what your salary was up front, they won't know where you are coming from and your salary request will seem like some phantom number you got from salary.com. You want credibility? If you can't justify why you should get paid what you are worth, you don't deserve the salary anyway. Tell them what you make and make them respect what you feel you should be getting.

Re:Tell them your salary, it empowers you

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Sorry, but I just can't see the benefits for the job seeker in your advice.

First of all, many companies will immediately shut you out for not disclosing that.

Do you want to work for such a company anyway? That's certainly never been the norm where I work, only the practice of predatory large corporations that don't pay well.

If, for example, you make $55k, but want $60k, but you make them say a number first, there are scenarios where you can end up fighting an uphill battle. What if they offer you $50k? What, suddenly you're willing to disclose your old salary and tell them their offer is too low? Then all that talk about it not being "relevant" goes out the window and you look like a fool.

I don't see how that follows at all. Why do you need to disclose anything about your old salary to say "Sorry, that offer is too low for me to accept. How about this instead?"

Instead, had you made it explicitly clear your currently salary is FAR too low, told them what it is, and asked for $65k, then you place them in the position to have to fight their way down to $60k.

Which they will do with the sentence "Unfortunately, as you're already aware, the market rate for this position is considerably less than what you're asking, and we can only offer you this instead." And you will have gifted it to them on a silver platter.

If you don't tell them what your salary was up front, they won't know where you are coming from and your salary request will seem like some phantom number you got from salary.com.

Anyone who assumes that because you choose not to disclose your salary you just went to some web site and looked it up is a fool, and if you're dealing with fools, you have bigger problems already, and again you should ask whether you really want to work there.

You want credibility? If you can't justify why you should get paid what you are worth, you don't deserve the salary anyway.

You're worth as much as an employer is prepared to pay you. That may or may not be the number you'll get if you give up your biggest bargaining chip before you even start the game.

In an employer's market, where there are far more qualified staff than jobs needing them and all employers act the same way towards recruitment, there might be some merit to going with the flow as you describe. Most of the time, and in most places, it's not that much of an employer's market, and I just don't see the upside to your approach.

Re:Umm... lie.

[Nataku564]

Some of us have this thing called a conscience. I say, instead of lying, tell them the truth, but also tell them you believe you are being underpaid and should be paid X instead of Y. You dont lie, and you get your message across. If they wont give it to you, then odds are they wouldn't give it to you even if you lied about your previous salary.

I dont see why people have such problems with just saying what they want to say ...

Value yourself

[ZekeSMZ]

A wise man once told me "if you don't value yourself, how can anyone else value you?" I've found those words to be very true on my past job searches.

Most company HR departments will validate current salary level requests. Large corporations often have hotlines dedicated to this, as the information is often required when applying for a mortgage or other financing.

It's a tough spot to be in when you are asked this question. When answering, make sure that you give a figure that represents your entire package (salary, bonus, options, perks, etc) - and let them know that you're talking about an entire package. Since bonuses are often based on variable factors, it's fair for you to factor in the upper limit of your bonus potential. The message here is be honest, but also be thorough in how you detail things. Above all, be fair to yourself.

If you're good enough and an employer really wants to hire you - they'll pay what they feel you're worth to them, as opposed to just giving you a standard "raise" from where you are.

Good luck - stay confident, negotiate tough and get what you deserve!

Re:Value yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

i recently went through this drill in searching for my first job after graduate school. i did an extensive amount of research in the process, based on which i can state the following (general--YMMV) observations:

a) average pay for a person with given qualifications can vary widely (>20%), even within a given industry.

b) average pay can, and does, vary widely between industries (e.g. aerospace vs. electrical engineering).

c) despite how they may act upon initial contact, HR people are not your friends. their job is to make you feel like they're your buddy, and to create the appearance of "it's you and me against The Man," where "The Man" is the company in question, early on in the negotiation process.

d) after getting the go-ahead from the hiring manager, HR's job is to get you on board for the lowest possible amount of money. if you think about it, doing things significantly differently would be financially irresponsible from the company's standpoint in most cases.

e) do your homework. that way you can counter glib and/or arbitrary assertions from the HR person about salary with tangible facts. even then they will likely not concede an inch verbally, but it does make a difference.

f) in case it is not clear from points b) through e) above, HR people are weasels. i was incredibly lucky to receive seven offers from seven interviews. with one small exception, this was the case in all of them.

g) whoever names a number first during the negotiation process generally loses.

although the title makes it sound very much like a huckster's manual, jack chapman's book is actually pretty decent and worth a look. some of its advice may be inapplicable or unworkable for you, but it's a good place to start. you can find it at most big bookstores for about $10. (no, i have no affiliation whatsoever with him.)

some universities' career offices publish historical starting salaries for their graduates online. if this isn't your first job, these numbers may not be directly relevant to you, but it's another piece of information. stanford MIT.

other salary links: the wall street journal published two surveys in the november 5, 2004 issue, one showing average salary by location, another by degree/education, for computer engineers. my two links are both dead, but if you have access to a library or a subscription to the WSJ archives, those are worth a look.

cost-of-living calculators one, two, three, four, five. that last one is a general link to the ACCRA index. it is not published for free on the web AFAIK, but if you google around you may find snapshots posted in various places.)

finally, general salary negotiation advice links: one, two, three.

be prepared, and good luck! /CF

Lockheed Martin Information Technology?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I am a Windows Systems Administrator and work for a pretty large corporation. I know that I'm underpaid for what I do, and as such, I've been looking for another position."

So, do you work for LMIT? I am just curious as it is a small world. Lockheed Martin is the largest defense contractor, has the most money, yet low balls its workers and pays the fat cats the big salaries. LMIT had some of the best co-workers skill set wise, however, the management absolutely sucked. They got their positions and huge salaries on the basis of belonging to a retired military caste. They treated their workers like shit and then acted like they were betrayed when the workers left. Even HR was defensive of the company when I out processed. These are just some of the reasons why I left LMIT. I make over 15K more than when I left LMIT and that was only a year ago. If you don't work there now, don't jump out of the frying pan into the fire.

Re:Don't tell them

[xero314]

I have to agree whole heartedly with the parent poster. There is no reason to tell them and you can not be compelled to do so. Tell them that you don't think that your previous compensations should have any bearing on what you would accept for this position. If you don't want to tell them and they don't hire you because of it then you probably don't want to work there. On the other hand, if it is a big jump from where you were, with out you having a reason for that jump such as finishing a higher level of education, then it may be best for you to talk a position at a lower rate and work your way to where you should be incrimentally.

I personally am a self educated Software Developer and I always make a 10-20% increase in pay when I change Jobs (even a nearly 50% increase once) so I know it can be done. Working through a recruiter is also a big help when it comes to making leaps in pay since the employer will often take the recruiters word and not ask you about your actual salary history.

Lastly I have, on more than one occassion, stated that I had an agreement with my previous employer that I would not reveal my compensation to anyone and am bound by that contract. Also most companies don't want to pay you less than you are honestly worth, by much, because you will just go to another job with a better offer.

The 5-Step Program

[databank]

If you are asked about what your salary is and you're worried about whether or not they might lowball you. Do two things:

1.) Make sure that the requirements in the job description are in fact everything that it says it is...(ie.- No additional stuff that wasn't included in the job description, such as managing additional employees, expecting to deal with issues outside of the scope of your work, etc)

2.) State what you assume the average position salary range for the job that you're applying for is. In addition, state WHERE you got that information and even better is to have the print out showing that based on the job description, this is the proper salary range. If they fail to respond to that being the case, then ask why they are offering less then the average range (and of course be polite about it.)

3.) Alternatively, if you honestly don't have the minimum skills listed as required by the job description, then the company has a legitimate reason to offer a lower amount. For example, if you don't have a minimum of 5 years experience in the field and are applying for a senior sysadmin position, then assume that the company now has a bargaining chip to negotiate salary, (because they do..)

4.) Don't lie. As a general rule, any kind of falsification of your resume are grounds for dismissal, (i.e., criminal record, fake credentials or falsified experience.) Senior class positions are usually geared towards being able to start a job on the ground floor running, with little to no training and not being able to handle the larger responsibility in a senior level position often indicate you aren't really qualified for either the position or the type of environment that the job is being offered in (for example, a senior level position in a hospital or a commercial telecom company.)

5.) Communicate. This may sound a little trite but any kind of communication whether it be personal between lovers, or professionals in the business world, is critical to a healthy relationship between the employee and employer. (Even the slashdot crowd can stand behind this, after all what is it everyone is doing right now but communicating our thoughts and ideas to each other on here via the computer?)

Oh good grief, be up-front about it!

[Mysteray]

Given that businesses usually base the salaries of new hires on their previous job, how can one arrange a fair salary if they were badly underpaid?

Tell them your whole employment history up-front. Since you're currently under-market, you hardly have a position to negotiate from anyway. And they've certainly had plenty of their time wasted before by applicants who interviewed well but who's references didn't check out in the end.

You've stayed at that current position for several years because of the great learning environment, right? But now you're open to moving because your current employer doesn't have a path for you to grow much beyond it, or so I figure.

A business has two types of positions: those for which basic requirements or certifications are considered sufficient (you mentioned Windows System Administrator), and those for which the superior candidate will bring to the company strategic advantages (usually just sales, upper management, and sometimes development). The first get based on pay grades and local market conditions, whereas the latter are much more flexibly based mostly on how the company feels about it's profitability. I theorize that these correspond to Maslow's homeostatic and higher needs, respectively.

Get them to say the first number. You currently have stable employment, and they're probably not hoping for someone who jumps ship anytime 10% comes along either. Since you're currently under market, any offer you get may be on the low end of their grade for the position. Take it without hesitation, if it gets you into the usual market range for your skills (you already mentioned that you liked the company).

Work hard, prove yourself valuable, and you can expect to be at correspondingly competitive compensation within a couple of years.

Re:WARNING: Passive aggression detected!

[DigiShaman]

If you have asked for a raise and you've been turned down, inform your boss that you cannot continue at the current salary and that you would like to continue working there, but you will be forced to start looking for a new job if you do not get a substantial rase.

Be careful!!! I've been FUCKED OVER playing that song and dance. Last time I asked my boss for a raise, I got declined. Two weeks later he hired another employee as my replacement (a n00b) and then laid me off a week later for some lame excuse.

Point is, if you ask for a raise be prepared to rock the boat. Chances are, you might get thrown overboard for your stupid attempt at a course correction in your career.

Re:WARNING: Passive aggression detected!

[BrookHarty]

And if he replaced you that quick, he didnt think much of you at all. Doesnt sound like it was that great of a job to start off with.