Next-Gen DVD Players to Rely on HDMI?

RX8 writes "For those thinking about upgrading to either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD when they become available, you may want to think again. According to Designtechnica, the next-generation players will not support 1080i or 1080P and quite possibly not even 720P using the component video connection, it will have to use HDMI. Why? Because of copyright enforcement. Hollywood wants these new players to get rid of component video all together. So if you have an HDTV and want to use these new players, chances are you are out of luck. Neither the Blu-Ray or HD-DVD camps are officially saying anything about this yet, but early players are only showing these high resolutions using the HDMI connection."

Comments

I'll be the first to say it...

[Dance_Dance_Karnov]

This will do nothing to discourage the pirate, and will only serve to annoy and alienate paying customers.

This is ribiculious...

[Manip]

What are these copyright protection schemes trying to accomplish? ... 99% of consumers *don't* copy their DVDs, 99% of consumers *don't* upload their DVDs to the internet ... But do you know who this hardware will affect? 99% of consumers.

The last 1% of consumers who do backup / upload will continue to do so regardless of the protection. All it takes is a single producer to have a accidental backdoor (see X-Box exploits via a game).

Further more why are they protecting the extra quality so vigorously? From what I've seen you have get non-HD pictures without any kind of protection, but for HD you need all this crazy stuff... But who is crazy enough to upload a full quality HD movie on the 'net?

I think the copyright holders are going to KILL psychical media far faster than it otherwise would and push consumers towards platforms like iTunes for their video.

Re:This is ribiculious...

[jonwil]

Copy protection is (increasingly) designed to stop the casual copiers.
For example, the people who borrow a CD off a mate and rip it to their MP3 player instead of buying the CD.
Or the people who record episodes of TV shows with a DVD recorder instead of buying the DVD box set.
Or the people who buy a new computer with a new version of windows or office or some other software package and decide to install it on all their other computers as well.

Re:This is ribiculious...

[pla]

All it takes is a single producer to have a accidental backdoor

HDCP includes key revocation lists. One backdoor will work for all content predating the discovery of a flaw, but as soon as you try to play something newer with the compromised device added to its list, you lose the ability to play content dependant on the compromised device (even older content - CRLs/KRLs apply retroactively).

That might well make you wonder what happens when someone like Sony or Toshiba eventually accidentally release a device with a flaw... Would Hollywood have the balls to make a million TVs go black with one stoke of their magic red pen?


Though, on re-reading your comment, it occurs to me you may have meant something different - That once a compromise occurs, you can use it to transcode all earlier content, making revocation irrelevant? On that, I would agree with you, with one slight problem - Storage and playback. Sure, you could keep a few of your favorite movies on your HDD, but HD movies eat a LOT of bytes. And even then, you could only play it back on your computer, since any standalone device capable of playing it would bring you back to the HDCP problem you wanted to get around in the first place.

Re:This is ribiculious...

[maxpublic]

You're talking about the movie/TV industry and assuming that the primary motivation of the people who actually run things is centered about money. It isn't, and hasn't been, for a very, very long time. These people are almost solely motivated by POWER - the power to decide what you can and cannot watch, and under what circumstances. They want control far more than they want money; they're absolutely fucking obsessed with it.

I've noticed that outsiders have a difficult time understanding this concept. They seem to think that the public somehow decides which shows get on the air and which do not, or which shows stay on the air and which do not, despite copious amounts of evidence to the contrary. They also seem to think that market forces have something to do with the process, a load of horseshit that anyone who actually works within the industry will recognize by the stink right away.

First rule: if it's ever about money OR power, power wins. Period. End of discussion. Fuck the market, fuck the revenue losses, fuck what the public thinks, it's power uber alles, and all the way. Once you grasp that you suddenly begin to understand why a host of highly-rated shows have been inexplicably canceled over the years, while other real losers have managed to hang on season after season. Profitable shows get cancelled because someone in authority doesn't like the show, or doesn't like someone on the show, and feels like sticking the knife in just to prove that he has a big dick; unprofitable shows hang on because the reverse is true - someone in power likes the show, or is getting regular blowjobs from the lead actress, or whatever it is that floats their boat.

If you want a semi-famous example, just look at Gail Berman's track record at Fox. She's been directly responsible for the untimely deaths of more than a half-dozen profitable shows simply for personal reasons (and is thought to have been involved in putting a half-dozen more into the coffin as well). She kills shows mainly because she harbors a seething hatred for beautiful young actresses who get a lot of attention, despite the fact that none of these actresses has ever done a thing to Ms. Berman. Her behavior, and the reasons for her behavior, are so well-known it's a running joke in the industry. This one person is in large part responsible for the reason why Fox is known as 'The Place Good Shows Go to Die'.

So when you see the movie/TV industry propose something which will do nothing at all about piracy, yet will piss off most of their customers, and you ask why they'd even consider such a thing, the answer is simple: it's about power. Money has nothing to do with it. The money doesn't matter because the obsession with power supercedes it. Always.

The folks who run the movie/TV industry have always been little tin-pot dictators, and unchallenged little tin-pot dictators, up until the point that broadband made it possible for the consumer to give them a big "fuck you, assholes" - even if it was only a minority of consumers. Think of how much they hated the VCR and how hard they fought it; despite the fact that the VCR meant huge new potential revenues, it also meant a loss of CONTROL - control over WHEN people watched shows. Not that it mattered for shit to the bottom line when they watched a show, but the very idea that Joe and Jane Consumer could make the choice for themselves was utter blasphemy. How dare those little fucking proles think that the choice of when to watch a show was theirs to make?

Now take that hatred over that loss of control and apply it to the current broadband internet situation and imagine just what sort of frothing, enraged lunatics you're dealing with. Again, huge profits are just waiting to be made, but the price is a big loss of power; so guess which concern is more important? They'll do anything and everything to stop YOU from taking back some of the power they've held against you since TV was first invented, and to hell with profitability. As far as they're concerned you're

The formats will flop

[Zork the Almighty]

This article would have been better titled: "Next-Gen DVD Formats Will Flop" because that is exactly what is going to happen. They've got a small market of people willing to replace all of their gear as it is, and now they have introduced compatibility problems on purpose with these inane restrictions. Nevermind the fact that they've got two completely incompatible formats, one of which is guaranteed to fail. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. The word of mouth on these things will be how "so-and-so spent gobs of money and it didn't work".

Re:The formats will flop

[zerocool^]

Right. I cannot possibly be the only one without all this next generation hi-def crap. I mean, it's all you hear about, it's all you see advertised, but 90% of america CANNOT all be spending $2300 on a TV. It's just not happening.

I'm still rockin' my 20" TV I've had since I went to college (it's dorm sized) even though I now have my own townhouse, etc. My TV at best has a composite input (like, standard RCA), and my stereo is Dolby Digital 5.1, minus the .1 (no subwoofers in townhouses - the 2 year old makes enough noise to annoy the neighbors). My equipment is all old, with the exception of the Tivo, which is new but doesn't have any functionality over an old device - it outputs standard L/R RCA for sound and composite RCA for video. Plus, my cable signal is far from Digital - my cable company doesn't even offer digital cable. At best, it's slightly grainy regular cable, and the closer you get to channel 1, the worse it gets (no PBS for me, no antiques roadshow, and CBS is pretty fuzzy, so no Criminal Minds or new CSI).

And you know what? My next upgrade is going to be a TV in the 32-36" range. Yep, appearantly, they still exist, but Circuit City, Best Buy, and all the retailers don't advertise them and refuse to help you with one - they want to push you into the $2000 Hi-Def flat screen yada yada widescreen next-gen high-profit-margin. No Thank You, I'm on a budget of probably $600, which believe it or not will buy a decent 36" or a pretty good 32", something with at least componant and s-video inputs.

But, it's probably going to be 5-10 years before I switch to something that can do 1080i or 720p. I mean, I'm sure it looks great, but I'm a fan of "looks good enough". Besides, I just got glasses, so to me, even regular 360 lines of resolution over an RCA cable looks fantastic, whereas 2 months ago, even it looked blurry. See? I just got Hi-Def with a trip to the optomitrist!

Someone has told these people that everyone on earth has or is getting a High-Def TV, and multiple devices that can display to it, along with multiple things encoded in hi-def. The problem with this is that it's just not true. It's too expensive; no one can decide on a standard (720p, 720i, 1080i, 1080p, 480p, HDMI, component, DVI, VGA, etc etc); and no one wants to repurchase their collection of DVDs.

Thanks, but no thanks. Get your ducks in a row, get the prices down for those of us who aren't living on credit cards and conspicuous consumption, find a standard, and make it backwards compatable. Then we'll talk.

~Will

Re:Serious "LITTLE" problem?

[vnsnes]

Not S-Video, but this device will do the trick.

Hmmm, $thousands on new hardware, or piracy?

[hattig]

These companies are so focused on restricting the usability of their products to protect imagined revenues that they aren't seeing the big picture - if there is a better, more usable, accessible, cheaper alternative available, people will use that.

The quality of piracy has gone up massively with internet distribution. Once pirates work out a system for ripping HD-DVDs and BluRay (and they will), then they can offer high quality films that will work on computers, older HDTV sets that people invested a lot in, and so on.

Functionality is a massive selling point, enough to make even people that actually do want to pay a fair price for the real thing think about getting the more functional version.

Sadly all this expensive work spent on restricting users will not bring in much more revenue to the companies - those people mainly pirate because they can't afford it otherwise, or wouldn't pay for it being stingy bastards. Instead they'll manage on the DVD resolution version - quality isn't a big issue for them either - students can't afford HDTV systems, stingy people have 20 year old televisions.

Next Generation Players Bound To Fail

[omegashenron]

Seriously, if this is the case, who is going to waste their money and buy one of these players?.

Consumers will be outraged (even the stupid ones). After all lets see what there is to consider:

• Choose a format you want and buy the player but to get all available titles you will really need to fork out cash for both players - who is going to do this?
• Discover that after you buy your two shiny new players that they will not work with your existing HDTV so fork out more cash for a new HDTV.

I think many retailers will end up experiencing a large increase in returned AV equipment in the coming years so much so that perhaps some retailers may decide to stop stocking such products or at least pick stock that is known to work together.

As for me, I probably wont worry about upgrading because my existing DVD collection is sufficiently entertaining and the quality of movies being released now days is simply appalling. In the end it's just not worth it.

Re:Next Generation Players Bound To Fail

[CastrTroy]

3. You realize that after you buy both machines and even though you have a TV with HDMI, that it only has 1 HDMI port, and you have to switch the players back and forth every time you want to play a disc of a different format.

I'm tired...

[ThinkDifferently]

I am really tired of having to upgrade all of my entertainment equipment every 5 years. I am not a bottomless pit of a consumer. I've replaced all of my equipment twice in my lifetime, and I'm only 35. Well, I'm tired of it now. As it is, I have to buy a specialized media pc just to record fscking HD content (where were the components?). Damn Blue Ray! Damn HD-DVD! They can rot for all I care. I won't be hollywood's damn pawn. I am the consumer, and I vote with my wallet. ...and if Blockbuster ever drops the DVD format, guess what? I'm not going to Blockbuster anymore.

Re:Serious "LITTLE" problem?

[Gadzinka]

No, the serious pirates can for example buy "magic box" from countries outside of DMCA/EUCD reach, that will decrypt HDMI signal using the weaknesses found in the HDCP before it even was implemented in a single device.

It will be just like someone at Ars Technica wrote: your HD player sometimes won't play your legal HD content on your computer or HDTV. But it will always play illegaly downloaded HD content from the Internet -- talk about shooting yourself in a foot.

Robert

Re:No problem

[badasscat]

These things are going to be as popular as copy-protected CDs. Just wait until the first few thousand people get home with a shiny new disc, whack it into their machine and get a crappy picture and/or a blank screen.

Ok, I'll bite.

I'm as anti-DRM as anybody, but statements like yours and the article submitter's are more than a little overly dramatic. It's highly likely that "the first few thousand people" who get home with their shiny new discs will have HDMI inputs in their TV's - it's difficult to buy an HDTV these days without one and has been for about the last 5 years. Even my $600 Samsung CRT HDTV has a DVI input, which is fully compatible with HDMI (HDMI is just DVI with audio, so all it takes is a cable with HDMI on one end and DVI on the other to make it work).

The earliest HDTV's only had component inputs. But with the rate HDTV's sold in the early days vs. the rate they're selling now, I'd wager that the vast majority of HDTV's in homes are HDMI-capable. Even many early adopters have probably upgraded their sets by now with larger models that perform better, have more inputs and cost a lot less. HDTV has been around for around 10 years, remember. It's not a new technology anymore.

The joke is that the AUD$8.95 DVD is here to stay.

Yeah, you don't have an HDTV, I guess. (I admit, I don't know what the HD situation is in Australia. But here in the US, it's almost difficult to buy a non-HD set anymore.)

These new formats are specifically for people with high definition displays. DVD is not good enough for those people. You're talking the difference between 720x480 (and that's assuming the disc is anamorphic, otherwise it's more like 480x360) and 1920x1080. That's a huge difference, and it's the entire reason these people bought HDTV's in the first place. If they didn't want that extra resolution, they would have just stuck with standard-def. So there is a large market for these new formats; if you spend $2,000-$3,000 on a TV, you want a format that takes advantage of it.

Standard-def formats will continue to exist, just as standard-def TV continues to exist now. It's no "joke", and you're not saying anything anyone doesn't know. 5-10 years ago you probably would have said "the joke is that VHS is here to stay" in a discussion about the new DVD format. Change doesn't come overnight. But once you see the difference 1080i or 1080p makes over standard definition TV, it's very hard to go back.

Now, all that said, I give it a matter of months before some Chinese or Taiwanese company comes out with an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player that outputs full resolution over component. It'll be one of those "oops!" moments that the manufacturer claims was unintentional but results in a run on that particular model. Eventually, everyone will be doing it... just as happened with region codes on DVD players.

The real problem is HDCP

[Shawn Parr]

DVI and HDMI can be converted back and forth very easily. It is a dongle basically.

But not all HDMI and DVI TV's incorporate HDCP, which is the copy protection system.

So even people with HD TVs with HDMI will not be able to use these new formats at full resolution unless they have a relatively new set that has HDCP, and it is compatible with whatever HDMI spec (did you know there are different specs? 1.1, 1.3?) and the HDCP spec used by the new systems.

Imagine buying a HDTV this summer, then for Christmas getting a BR player that doesn't work full quality because your set doesn't have HDMI 1.3 and whatever current version of HDCP...

This is a huge issue, and even the early adopters are getting fidgety about it. While some people may switch out their whole systems, at this point it will be a minority by far. Even on the high end hi-fi and videophile forums there is a lot of discussion of people not being happy about this.

Eventually we may run into a situation where the hardware manufacturers stop caving into the producers demands if we have a situation where even the typical early adopters will not bite.