Exploring The 360's Crashing and Heat

GameDailyBiz has a piece up looking into the crashing and overheating problems that have plagued the Xbox 360 since the system launched. A new crashing problem seems to be associated with the most recent update to the Xbox Live software, while german forum-goers think they may have identified the overheating issue. From the article: "The way it's installed now by MS the GPU chip makes contact with the protection foil instead of the heat transfer pad. This can of course cause cooling issues for the graphics chip as for optimal cooling performance there should just be a thin layer of thermal pad between the GPU chip and heatsink."

Comments

That's not a glitch!

[cbiltcliffe]

It's a feature. It stops you from playing for so long at a stretch that you risk developing carpel tunnel, thereby preventing you from suing Microsoft over health problems.

Re:That's not a glitch!

[earnest murderer]

It's a feature.

Actually it is. At least according to some... http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=4 96524 or http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=4 96524&st=30

Sad day indeed

[suspected]

One of the main advantages of a console games over PC games is simplicity and compatibility. About 10 years ago, installing a computer game wasn't as simple as it is today, and you were never sure if it would run on your computer. Today such concerns are minor, but consoles still hold a considerable market share even though they are nothing more but computers that are geared for video game.

Having said that, it's really disheartening to hear that Microsoft has over-looked the key advantage of consoles and screwed it up. I certainly hope that the xbox360 sales stay low, if for no other reason than to send a message to prospective console entrepreneurs: don't screw your consumer base by releasing expensive, under-tested products!

Re:Sad day indeed

[E-Rock]

Sales stay low? Low as in they sell every single unit they get on the shelves?

Also, I'm not sure how 'wide spread' this problem is as no one I know with a 360 has ever had it happend and no-one I see complaining about it on-line has either. It's always a friend of a friend, or I hear that...

Re:Sad day indeed

[Donjo]

I just purchased my 360 not long ago and I had to search long and hard for it. I wanted to get a premium package but they were nowhere to be found in retail stores and I was finally able to find an EB that had a single core system left. I know a lot of people that never had problems, yet I know quite a few people that had problems with their PS2 release consoles and the DVD drive that came with it. Every launch console has problems and people who are against the console tend to hype it.

Re:Sad day indeed

[wolrahnaes]

Sold out does mean as recently as 2 weeks ago, one local Best Buy got a shipment of 6, and 15 minutes later I was walking out with the last one in hand. Every other store in town was out of stock.

This isn't a small town either, Toledo is either the 4th or 5th largest city in Ohio (not sure if we're ahead of Akron).

There were only 2 core packages anywhere too, so even those pieces of crap are selling.

Re:Sad day indeed

[JL-b8]

I have to say that every time the 360 comes into the limelight I smell the fanboyism all over the place. If it isn't the PC gamers than its the sony or nintendo freaks and everyone slings a nice thick wad of mud on the other guy while thinking they're preference is so high and mighty. I've owned all 3 systems and I've gone through my share of crap with all of them. I've yet to cross that road with my 360. But I know they're imperfect machines designed by imperfect humans and assembled by more imperfect people. Shit happens. The way of Bill is the way to salvation. All hail the green Pope!

Re:Sad day indeed

[cgenman]

About 10 years ago, installing a computer game wasn't as simple as it is today, and you were never sure if it would run on your computer... it's really disheartening to hear that Microsoft has over-looked the key advantage of consoles and screwed it up.

"There's an old story about the person who wished his computer were as easy to use as his telephone. That wish has come true, since I no longer know how to use my telephone. "

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce

[SnprBoB86]

No need to "brag", but I will simply state that I have been playing my 360 pretty reguarlly since I got it in the first week of January (see my gamer card: http://live.xbox.com/member/SnprBoB86) and have had not a single bad experience.

The system is located in a relatively hot room and is positioned vertically, but I have not experienced a single crash or scratched a single CD. I know three other people with Xbox 360s and only one of them reported that he experienced some crashes, but only when playing this one particular hockey game.

Holy crap these people are morons

[pythas]

The foil IS PART OF the heat transfer material. Intel uses it on the pentium 4s, I've seen it on Dell servers as well.

Just another case of idiots on the internet pulling out the "jump to conclusions" mat.

Re:Holy crap these people are morons

[iocat]

I like the part where there's this worry that the foil will somehow block the heat transfer. Right. If you believe that, wrap your hand in tinfoil and stick it in a fire.

Re:Holy crap these people are morons

[Entropius]

Foil does do a good job at blocking radiative transfer.

Re:Holy crap these people are morons

[MicktheMech]

I like the part where there's this worry that the foil will somehow block the heat transfer. Right. If you believe that, wrap your hand in tinfoil and stick it in a fire.

1. Your example is primarily covective/radiation, where the heat transfer in question is primarily through conduction. It isn't a very good analogy.
2. The issue isn't the conductivity of the foil, it's the contact surface. When you have imperfect contact it works like an additional resistance. If you measure the temperatures of the two surfaces you'll see something like a disconinuity between the two. Thermal paste conforms to each of the surfaces, reducing the effect of the contact resistance. Remember, convection is generally negligible for small characteristic lengths. Radiation is also a small factor when you're looking at the temperatures inside of a computer.

Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce

[CaymanIslandCarpedie]

Same here and any time mine isn't being played it is acting as a media center extender. So its been on 24/7 for months now without a single issue. Obviously when its not happening to you its easy to things its all a load of crap, but I'd love to hear some type of stats as to what % are effected by this.

Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce

[thehickcoder]

only one of them reported that he experienced some crashes, but only when playing this one particular hockey game.

This is an example of Microsoft's greatest coup. By getting the vast majority of the computer-using population used to its buggy software, we now expect software to crash and are happy when it only crashes some of the time. You are making the GP's point for him. Good software should not crash. Period.

until now ...

[Frag-A-Muffin]

consoles have been such a stable platform. A consistent target for developers with usually not many surprises.

Thanks Microsoft! For bringing in the troubles of the Wintel world into the console world! Updates to fix a system that clearly wasn't ready. That's what I want from a console, incomplete, work in progress! w00T! :)

Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce

[Jonboy X]

My XBox 360 drank all my beer, ran off with my girlfriend and kicked my dog on the way out.

new user notes

[morcheeba]

I just got my xbox360 sunday, and I've had no heat problems, but there are tons of problems with the UI. Oh, where do I start?

• Downloads are fux0red. You can only download one at a time, and while that's happening you can't do anything else. There is no time display, only a percentage display. Not only is the percentage display grossly wrong, if you don't touch the box (because you can't do anything else), the screensaver kicks in and shows you the menu underneath -- totally useless. Downloads instantly start at 5% done. Abort and restart it, and it'll automatically be 50% done. Abort and restart it again and it'll be 100% done and quit downloading.
  
• Once you get a download, the default action is to re-download it. Which, if you accept this, it'll delete (without warning) and start again. The default action should be "go to my download". No, actually, the default action should be "play my download", but they don't have that -- you have to go through 2 more menus to actually play it.
  
• The box constantly logs me in and out - some things need me in, some out.
  
• Menu items are inconsistent. Even on the same menu, some items are highlighted by brightening the center, others are highlighted by brightening the edges.
  
• When you quit a game, the OS doesn't know if you've saved the game or not. So, it'll always warn you that you are about to lose data, even if you haven't started a game. A little communication between the OS and games, please!
  
• The unit is really loud. Much louder than my PC or my microwave.
  
• The only auto-power off option is "never" or "6 hours". I'd like it to power off after downloading my games -- I hope 6 hours is enough -- and preferably ASAP because the fans are really loud.
  
• There is no headphones jack. I use it with my monitor, which supports HDTV but not audio.
  
• There are some things you do that apparently require it to reboot (it doesn't tell you), which autostarts the game. Frustrating if you say "do xxx" and it starts the game instead of going to the menu you were previously at.

The controller is genius. It feels solid and comfortable, the radio works well.
Graphics have been a letdown compared to my PC.
The software is amazingly half-baked considering they've had 4 months after the release date to fix it.

Re:new user notes

[Dance_Dance_Karnov]

what I hate is not having the ability to boot to menu, ala the DS.

Re:new user notes

[DeadScreenSky]

Most of your problems just sound like new user issues, honestly.

Downloads are fux0red. You can only download one at a time, and while that's happening you can't do anything else. There is no time display, only a percentage display. Not only is the percentage display grossly wrong, if you don't touch the box (because you can't do anything else), the screensaver kicks in and shows you the menu underneath -- totally useless. Downloads instantly start at 5% done. Abort and restart it, and it'll automatically be 50% done. Abort and restart it again and it'll be 100% done and quit downloading.
Limiting downloads is actually a feature, sort of. The X360 isn't a PC. Games expect to get complete hardware performance every time they run (technically 5% or so of one of the cores is devoted to the GUI, but you understand what I mean). Yeah, I guess you could still want to listen to music or something while you download a demo, but the interface isn't really designed for multitasking like that. That's a good call, it's already fairly complicated enough for a gaming system. Like I said, it's a console, not a PC.

You want the screensaver to cut in. Some HDTVs are very susceptible to burn-in. The controller turns off too, to save power. I guess that could be mildly annoying to some people, but I don't think you are expected to just sit there and watch the download.

The 50% resume issue is a little bizarre, but it's not really much of a problem IMO. I've never had that fake 100% issue before, and I've resumed and stopped downloads all of the time.

The box constantly logs me in and out - some things need me in, some out.
Like your problem with unexpected reboots, this sounds like an issue with software updates for a new system. I'm not sure I consider it a problem myself, but you won't really have to worry about it now.

Menu items are inconsistent. Even on the same menu, some items are highlighted by brightening the center, others are highlighted by brightening the edges.
Where does this specifically occur? I've never noticed this.

When you quit a game, the OS doesn't know if you've saved the game or not. So, it'll always warn you that you are about to lose data, even if you haven't started a game. A little communication between the OS and games, please!
This is more of an issue with shoddy games that don't autosave, generally lazy multiplatform releases. It's not a problem with the consoles. Games like DOA4 will never make this complaint. It just autosaves in the background when you unlock or accomplish something new. This kind of thing was pretty standard even on the better Xbox1 games.

The unit is really loud. Much louder than my PC or my microwave.
It is very loud. This is probably my biggest complaint with the console. That said, my PS2 is roughly the same volume, maybe even louder. So is my new videocard. I understand why they don't allow this, but it's too bad you couldn't upgrade the fans to something higher-end and quieter like I have with my PC's CPU.

Graphics have been a letdown compared to my PC.
Wow, seriously? What PC games am I missing exactly? I've had the completely opposite experience. I haven't seen anything on the PC that looks as good as PGR3, DOA4, Kameo, GRAW, Full Auto, and occasionally PD0. This is the first videocard upgrade I've really been disappointed with, and it's solely because nothing has come close to the X360 I've had for months.

And I'm a big fan of the controller too. One of these days I have to pick up the wired version for my PC. It's just so damn comfortable.

Re:new user notes

[Burpmaster]

Name another console (non-portable) with a headphone jack.

3DO. It had a headphone jack at the bottom of each controller.

Re:new user notes

[cgenman]

Limiting downloads is actually a feature, sort of. The X360 isn't a PC. Games expect to get complete hardware performance every time they run (technically 5% or so of one of the cores is devoted to the GUI, but you understand what I mean).

Yes, but you should at least be able to navigate the dashboard, start other downloads, chat with friends, etc. Downloading itself isn't a particularly processor intensive task, and it shouldn't be too difficult for the system to put up a "download in progress... game is paused" message for anyone who tries to enter or resume a game.

I expect we'll see this improve as MS releases more dashboard updates.

The box constantly logs me in and out - some things need me in, some out.
Like your problem with unexpected reboots, this sounds like an issue with software updates for a new system. I'm not sure I consider it a problem myself, but you won't really have to worry about it now.

This rather bothers me as well. I'd much rather be logged in or not depending upon how I feel, rather than what the internal state of the box wants.

When you quit a game, the OS doesn't know if you've saved the game or not... A little communication between the OS and games, please!
This is more of an issue with shoddy games that don't autosave, generally lazy multiplatform releases.

Lots of games on the PS2 autosave, just as lots of Xbox games didn't. There seems to be a lot of developers around who haven't quite understood that it isn't save and autosave anymore, it is save and manual save.

DOA can get away with autosaving without warnings because there really isn't any moment-to-moment progress to be lost. However, in an RPG every resource you consume or action you take could count as progress, and as such unless you're going to hit the memory card every second or two, you need to warn the player.

This is really only a problem for the X360 because that's the only console that has the concept of "quitting" a game. You don't quit anything on the PS2, you just turn the machine off.

And really, that summarizes all of the growing pains the X360 is experiencing. It took a very simple thing, a console, and expanded it out in new directions. Some of those are painful and confusing. Some aren't.

Re:new user notes

[DeadScreenSky]

Yes, but you should at least be able to navigate the dashboard, start other downloads, chat with friends, etc. Downloading itself isn't a particularly processor intensive task, and it shouldn't be too difficult for the system to put up a "download in progress... game is paused" message for anyone who tries to enter or resume a game.

I expect we'll see this improve as MS releases more dashboard updates.

I didn't think about chatting with friends. That's a good point. I guess I just only download demos when I'm not using the console, so it's never seemed like a big deal to me.

This rather bothers me as well. I'd much rather be logged in or not depending upon how I feel, rather than what the internal state of the box wants.

You can log out anytime you want (or just make yourself look like you're logged out). The only reason the system forces you to log out is when it is a necessity (generally for software updates).

Lots of games on the PS2 autosave, just as lots of Xbox games didn't. There seems to be a lot of developers around who haven't quite understood that it isn't save and autosave anymore, it is save and manual save.

DOA can get away with autosaving without warnings because there really isn't any moment-to-moment progress to be lost. However, in an RPG every resource you consume or action you take could count as progress, and as such unless you're going to hit the memory card every second or two, you need to warn the player.

This is really only a problem for the X360 because that's the only console that has the concept of "quitting" a game. You don't quit anything on the PS2, you just turn the machine off.

I didn't mean to imply that only the Xbox1 did autosaves, though it was pretty rare on the PS2 and Gamecube. It definitely is a developer education issue.

Autosaves in an RPG are more of a gameplay design issue than anything. Of course since the X360 doesn't have any yet that can't be what the grandparent post was complaining about. But it's pretty ridiculous that games like Burnout Revenge and Amped 3 pop up big "now saving" messages that stop the game in its tracks every time you accomplish anything. DOA4 saves in the background after every battle and it doesn't slow the game down at all. That's clearly not a console issue, it's a developer issue.

And really, that summarizes all of the growing pains the X360 is experiencing. It took a very simple thing, a console, and expanded it out in new directions. Some of those are painful and confusing. Some aren't.

Well put.

User Headspace Error

[Stormcrow309]

Several people I know have gotten their 360s that I know. The major issue that I have seen is the insuffecient grey matter heap size issue. You know, PEBKAC.

Three friends and a brother all have had the heat issue. They kept their consoles in nice av cabinets, one with a glass front. No air flow. A-B user interaction error. We had this problem with high performance gaming PCs and enclosed areas. Local user issue.

Re:User Headspace Error

[rafemonkey]

This is the same mistake Microsoft made. They, like you, assume that the 360 is a computer, and people will treat it as such. But the reality is that a game console is not supposed to be a computer. It's a piece of AV hardware, and it ought to work like it, since that's how people are going to treat it. Think of it like a VCR, it needs to be able to go in the cabinet under the TV and still work.

Re:User Headspace Error

[rafemonkey]

I agree that all of the next gen consoles are computers and really need to be treated as such. But the problem is that they are being marketed as game consoles, and every game console back to dawn of time (or the late 1970s) has been a peice of AV hardware. Companies go out of their way to market them as such, to avoid losing potential consumers who have no interest in computers, or even find them scary. That the next gen consoles really are computers doesn't change the way consumers percive them. This can be interperated in two ways, consumers are dumb, or somebody doesn't understand their target market. Imagine the following scenario...

Customer: This Microsoft car 360 keeps crashing.
Support: How are you using it?
Customer: Well, I was just driving down the road...
Support: AHA! That's the problem. Car 360 is a perfomance machine, you sould only opperate it on closed racetracks.

Re:User Headspace Error

[some guy on slashdot]

You're getting warmer, but you still aren't quite on the money yet. A video game console isn't a piece of AV equipment; it's a toy. As such, it should be able to deal with running on top of a pile of clothes in a kid's room, on the floor, on a stack of pizza boxes, stacked on top of other gaming hardware, pretty much anywhere. It also needs to be able to withstand being kicked, having the wires pull out suddenly, being gnawed on by pets, etc. No matter how much shiny plastic we may cover it in, we cannot hide the fact that play is messy.

Dare I go so far as to point out that Nintendo is the only major player in the console market that has experience making toys?

Re:Wow...its kind of hard to believe.

[ivan256]

any moron thats ever built a computer at all knows that modern CPU's and GPU's need big fat heatsinks...with thermal compound in between.

It's a good thing you used 'moron' in there. Plenty of modern GPUs work just fine with rather small heatsinks. Practically no video card manufacturers use compound on their chips.

You seem to have bought into the 'performance cooling' crap that has sprung out of the overclocking craze in the late '90s. There are plenty of transfer materials that work as well or better than thermal compounds. Even though the conventional wisdom amongst hobbiests is that compound is the best, especially the expensive ones... In reality there are a variety of thermal pads that work better, but in a more permanent way. Usually they melt on first use to flow into surfaces, or they glue themselves to the chip and the heatsink.

The foil probably works fine until after the first time you remove it.

Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce

[SnprBoB86]

Right, so whatever hocky game my friend has is NOT GOOD SOFTWARE.

Geometry wars, Call of Duty 2, Halo 2, Full Auto, and the various other games do not exhibit this behavior. Shitty, buggy games exist on all platforms.

360 -- which 360?

[shrinkwrap]

I guess I'm getting old. When I saw the title, I immediately thought, "Who is still using IBM 360s?"

Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce

[HunterWare]

Gosh, I bet you miss it.