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Exploring The 360's Crashing and Heat

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the pirates-of-the-carribean-don't-eat-the-tourists dept.

GameDailyBiz has a piece up looking into the crashing and overheating problems that have plagued the Xbox 360 since the system launched. A new crashing problem seems to be associated with the most recent update to the Xbox Live software, while german forum-goers think they may have identified the overheating issue. From the article: "The way it's installed now by MS the GPU chip makes contact with the protection foil instead of the heat transfer pad. This can of course cause cooling issues for the graphics chip as for optimal cooling performance there should just be a thin layer of thermal pad between the GPU chip and heatsink."

86 of 114 comments (clear)

  1. That's not a glitch! by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's a feature. It stops you from playing for so long at a stretch that you risk developing carpel tunnel, thereby preventing you from suing Microsoft over health problems.

    --
    "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    1. Re:That's not a glitch! by earnest+murderer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a feature.

      Actually it is. At least according to some... http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=4 96524 or http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=4 96524&st=30

      --
      Platform advocacy is like choosing a favorite severely developmentally disabled child.
  2. Sad day indeed by suspected · · Score: 4, Insightful
    One of the main advantages of a console games over PC games is simplicity and compatibility. About 10 years ago, installing a computer game wasn't as simple as it is today, and you were never sure if it would run on your computer. Today such concerns are minor, but consoles still hold a considerable market share even though they are nothing more but computers that are geared for video game.

    Having said that, it's really disheartening to hear that Microsoft has over-looked the key advantage of consoles and screwed it up. I certainly hope that the xbox360 sales stay low, if for no other reason than to send a message to prospective console entrepreneurs: don't screw your consumer base by releasing expensive, under-tested products!

    1. Re:Sad day indeed by E-Rock · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sales stay low? Low as in they sell every single unit they get on the shelves?

      Also, I'm not sure how 'wide spread' this problem is as no one I know with a 360 has ever had it happend and no-one I see complaining about it on-line has either. It's always a friend of a friend, or I hear that...

    2. Re:Sad day indeed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      > Low as in they sell every single unit they get on the shelves?

      Wow, 360 owners are still trying to get people to believe that BS???

      That is so sad...

      Of course you don't mean in Japan where they don't look like they will ever sell their initial shipment.

      Europe looks to be doing quite bad with multiple people in one console forum a couple days ago offering to upload pictures of large numbers of 360s sitting unsold in stores over there when someone tried to claim the 360 was sold out over there.

      And the US, 360s have been in stock in every major retailer for at least a month now. For every person trying to claim they can't find one anywhere in the US another person posts how they walked right in to such and such major retailer and picked up one of multiple 360s sitting there in stock with no bundle required.

      'Sold out' does not mean I call EB every day and they have none...

    3. Re:Sad day indeed by Donjo · · Score: 5, Informative

      I just purchased my 360 not long ago and I had to search long and hard for it. I wanted to get a premium package but they were nowhere to be found in retail stores and I was finally able to find an EB that had a single core system left. I know a lot of people that never had problems, yet I know quite a few people that had problems with their PS2 release consoles and the DVD drive that came with it. Every launch console has problems and people who are against the console tend to hype it.

    4. Re:Sad day indeed by wolrahnaes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sold out does mean as recently as 2 weeks ago, one local Best Buy got a shipment of 6, and 15 minutes later I was walking out with the last one in hand. Every other store in town was out of stock.

      This isn't a small town either, Toledo is either the 4th or 5th largest city in Ohio (not sure if we're ahead of Akron).

      There were only 2 core packages anywhere too, so even those pieces of crap are selling.

      --
      I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
    5. Re:Sad day indeed by JL-b8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have to say that every time the 360 comes into the limelight I smell the fanboyism all over the place. If it isn't the PC gamers than its the sony or nintendo freaks and everyone slings a nice thick wad of mud on the other guy while thinking they're preference is so high and mighty. I've owned all 3 systems and I've gone through my share of crap with all of them. I've yet to cross that road with my 360. But I know they're imperfect machines designed by imperfect humans and assembled by more imperfect people. Shit happens. The way of Bill is the way to salvation. All hail the green Pope!

    6. Re:Sad day indeed by RexRhino · · Score: 1

      They sold out all the Xbox 360s they made, so if sales are slow it is because they haven't manufactured enough... but I agree with you, the whole benifit of consoles is that you don't have to deal with all the crap setup and compatibility issues that you do on a PC.

    7. Re:Sad day indeed by Khuffie · · Score: 1

      PC games are easy to install nowadays? Since when? Some of the major titles like Half-Life 2 and Battlefield 2 had issues at launch, sometimes game-crashing. To be honest, I really don't understand why games need to be installed on acomputer: if I have a fast enough DVD drive, things should load off the bloody DVD, no? I've seen games do it before (Tomb Raider comes to mind), I don't understand why most games don't do it, especially since most games require you to have the disc in to play anyway.

    8. Re:Sad day indeed by Baddas · · Score: 1

      DVD read speed at 12x, max (in order, from beginning to end, no random seeks): 15.85MB/s
      Hard disk read speed (average sustained large chunks ~64KB+): 58.7MB/s

      Do you have any questions now? The answer is very simple: hard drives are far faster.

    9. Re:Sad day indeed by Khuffie · · Score: 1

      Consoles can handle it though. The 360 is loading high res textures comparable to ones found on PC games, and some games even manage not to have loading screens in between levels.

    10. Re:Sad day indeed by cgenman · · Score: 3, Funny

      About 10 years ago, installing a computer game wasn't as simple as it is today, and you were never sure if it would run on your computer... it's really disheartening to hear that Microsoft has over-looked the key advantage of consoles and screwed it up.

      "There's an old story about the person who wished his computer were as easy to use as his telephone. That wish has come true, since I no longer know how to use my telephone. "

      -- Bjarne Stroustrup

      --
      The ______ Agenda
    11. Re:Sad day indeed by wolrahnaes · · Score: 1

      I've taken many trips to both coasts, and pretty much the only area in the lower 48 that I haven't been is the Northeast. Just because I live in Ohio doesn't mean that I'm oblivious to the rest of the country and world.

      Anyways, from what I've read on some game forums, it seems that those in larger cities close to either coast have no problems finding 360s, where us Midwesterners are less fortunate and still have to use online trackers and a bit of luck to get these things.

      Oh and FYI, I'm just outside of Cleveland right now and the situation is the same as in Toledo, except there are a few more Core packages. Premiums are nowhere to be found and the smaller stores that took preorders (Gamestop, EB, Babbages, etc.) are still filling those.

      Basically, in any area if you want a core package just go hunting around in the afternoon on a Tuesday (typical day to recieve them according to many store employees). If you want a premium and a Best Buy or Circuit City is nearby, go grab UNT1TLED's tracker and set it to a 15 minute or less refresh. (If you get one with this tool, send the guy a few bucks. An independent developer who writes useful little utilities like this is good to support. And no it's not me....the damn thing is written with .net 2.0, and I won't touch that stuff)

      --
      I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
    12. Re:Sad day indeed by rtb61 · · Score: 1
      They have not manufactured enough because they have had to reduce manufacture rates whilst the overheating problem is designed out of the system. Overheating is really bad news for tech equipment as it kills the life of the equipment.

      Console owners are going to be pretty pissed should the units start dying not long after the 90 day warranty expires. The whole concept is just so stupid, shave a few cents, so losses are reduced, annoy huge numbers of customers with failing units, who have to replace them with new units that microsoft again has to sell at a loss, or more likely the users will sell what ever games they bought second hand and cross grade consoles.

      Of course they won't admit to the redesign because people will stop buying the existing units, leaving them stuck with defective stock for an even bigger loss.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    13. Re:Sad day indeed by Baddas · · Score: 1

      That's like telling people that horse-and-buggy do the trick fine.

      If you've got this blazing-fast hard disk there, why not use it?

      Also, if the 360 is at all like the original Xbox, running from hard disk will be much, much faster on that platform as well.

      Be glad they make use of it on PC.

    14. Re:Sad day indeed by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1
      Of course you don't mean in Japan where they don't look like they will ever sell their initial shipment.

      Looks like those will be sold at a discount in other markets. You can get them in Australia already, and some Australian online stores ship to the US, so anyone in the US who's desperate might want to look there.
      http://www.mp4store.com.au/category37/product386/p roduct_info.html

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    15. Re:Sad day indeed by xtieburn · · Score: 1

      Errr you realise games run from RAM not the hard disk. That the difference between harddisk and DVD is about 3x while the difference between harddisk and RAM is about 1,000,000x. I mean your talking like the parent is making some kind of dumb suggestion but the only difference running off harddrive makes is loading times.

      Loading times that actually manage to be longer on PC than console because the developers often either over look it or are too lazy to sort them out. I.e. PC games often load slower than console ones. Your one reason for not having a game run from the disk has gone.

      Im not saying for sure which is a better method but it seems to me that its not something that you can just fob off in a bit of a self superior way like you did with your last two sentances.

    16. Re:Sad day indeed by iocat · · Score: 1

      All Xbox 360 games run from RAM; you can't assume a system will have a HDD (remember, there are "core" systems out there). Because PC game makers have a more expansive platform to work with they frequently will cache things to disc, and as the parent notes, be "sloppy." I don't know how much you can bag on them for it (ok, actually I do, since I work with a lot of console engineers, and the answer there is "an unlimited amount"), because obviously they have a lot of other things to deal with, such as making their games run under Windows, on a huge variety of PCs and configurations.

      --

      Dude, I think I can see my house from here.

    17. Re:Sad day indeed by noidentity · · Score: 1

      "PC games is simplicity and compatibility. About 10 years ago, installing a computer game wasn't as simple as it is today, and you were never sure if it would run on your computer."

      Don't worry, PC game manufacturers are working hard to bring back the good old days when you didn't know whether a game would install and work. Consoles have always been superior in this regard; just put the game in and play.

    18. Re:Sad day indeed by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I think most of the trolling is a single user. The AC trolls are all similar, lack real arguments and there's usually just one troll reply per post. It's one guy who wants to convince everyone that everything bad in the world is MS's fault and that Sony and Nintendo are perfect and the PS3 is the second coming.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    19. Re:Sad day indeed by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I don't know about yours but my DVD drive is fucking loud when it spins. The HD makes almost no sound. I prefer having a game on HD (and without CD check) over having it on DVD and having to dig out the disc every time I want to run it.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    20. Re:Sad day indeed by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Load times on the PC are usually a bit longer (well, compared to the Gamecube, the PS2 is just as bad) but less frequent. Some games take one load and that's it, you're playing for hours. PC games can stuff a lot more content between load pauses and when a console game gets ported to the PC in many cases the load times are so short you don't even notice them.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    21. Re:Sad day indeed by steveo777 · · Score: 1
      Okay, my best friend who lives in Duluth, MN owns a 360 that has overheating problems. His old X-Box sat in a relatively well ventilated spot on the shelf and didn't have any problems. The 360 sits in the same spot and, being a bit smaller, has better ventilation. The P/S sat behind the set up. Whenever he played DOA or CoD 2 the game would freeze up and the console would shut down. I have witnessed it.

      The solution was to put a few nails in the wall and hang the P/S about a foot off the ground and half an inch away from the wall surface. It works and it's still out of sight, but by all practical matters, this should not be required to play any console game.

      --
      This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
  3. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by SnprBoB86 · · Score: 5, Informative

    No need to "brag", but I will simply state that I have been playing my 360 pretty reguarlly since I got it in the first week of January (see my gamer card: http://live.xbox.com/member/SnprBoB86) and have had not a single bad experience.

    The system is located in a relatively hot room and is positioned vertically, but I have not experienced a single crash or scratched a single CD. I know three other people with Xbox 360s and only one of them reported that he experienced some crashes, but only when playing this one particular hockey game.

    --
    http://brandonbloom.name
  4. Holy crap these people are morons by pythas · · Score: 5, Informative

    The foil IS PART OF the heat transfer material. Intel uses it on the pentium 4s, I've seen it on Dell servers as well.

    Just another case of idiots on the internet pulling out the "jump to conclusions" mat.

    1. Re:Holy crap these people are morons by iocat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I like the part where there's this worry that the foil will somehow block the heat transfer. Right. If you believe that, wrap your hand in tinfoil and stick it in a fire.

      --

      Dude, I think I can see my house from here.

    2. Re:Holy crap these people are morons by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      I suppose it is part of the consequence of people being able to screw together a few parts and calling themselves "computer builders". Sometimes they are people that understand what they are doing, and other times they are just idiots thinking they understand thermal engineering.

    3. Re:Holy crap these people are morons by Entropius · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Foil does do a good job at blocking radiative transfer.

    4. Re:Holy crap these people are morons by PhotoBoy · · Score: 1

      Heh, I always thought you were supposed to peel that foil off! :)

      I'm not an expert but I would have expected the foil would be less efficient at transferring heat than the pad underneath it. I thought the point of thermal compounds was to be slighly fluid so that it can squeeze into the small imperfections on the surface of the CPU to create a closer bond? If the foil is there then doesn't that mean it's just the same as if the CPU was in direct contact with the heat sink?

    5. Re:Holy crap these people are morons by MicktheMech · · Score: 5, Informative
      I like the part where there's this worry that the foil will somehow block the heat transfer. Right. If you believe that, wrap your hand in tinfoil and stick it in a fire.

      1. Your example is primarily covective/radiation, where the heat transfer in question is primarily through conduction. It isn't a very good analogy.
      2. The issue isn't the conductivity of the foil, it's the contact surface. When you have imperfect contact it works like an additional resistance. If you measure the temperatures of the two surfaces you'll see something like a disconinuity between the two. Thermal paste conforms to each of the surfaces, reducing the effect of the contact resistance. Remember, convection is generally negligible for small characteristic lengths. Radiation is also a small factor when you're looking at the temperatures inside of a computer.
  5. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by CaymanIslandCarpedie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Same here and any time mine isn't being played it is acting as a media center extender. So its been on 24/7 for months now without a single issue. Obviously when its not happening to you its easy to things its all a load of crap, but I'd love to hear some type of stats as to what % are effected by this.

    --
    "reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
  6. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by thehickcoder · · Score: 3, Informative

    only one of them reported that he experienced some crashes, but only when playing this one particular hockey game.

    This is an example of Microsoft's greatest coup. By getting the vast majority of the computer-using population used to its buggy software, we now expect software to crash and are happy when it only crashes some of the time. You are making the GP's point for him. Good software should not crash. Period.

  7. until now ... by Frag-A-Muffin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    consoles have been such a stable platform. A consistent target for developers with usually not many surprises.

    Thanks Microsoft! For bringing in the troubles of the Wintel world into the console world! Updates to fix a system that clearly wasn't ready. That's what I want from a console, incomplete, work in progress! w00T! :)

    --

    AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
    1. Re:until now ... by linj · · Score: 1

      Ehhh.... It's more of a WIBM. If you get where I'm going with this.

      Wikipedia!

  8. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by Jonboy+X · · Score: 5, Funny

    My XBox 360 drank all my beer, ran off with my girlfriend and kicked my dog on the way out.

    --

    "In a 32-bit world, you're a 2-bit user. You've got your own newsgroup, alt.total.loser." -Weird Al
  9. new user notes by morcheeba · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I just got my xbox360 sunday, and I've had no heat problems, but there are tons of problems with the UI. Oh, where do I start?

    • Downloads are fux0red. You can only download one at a time, and while that's happening you can't do anything else. There is no time display, only a percentage display. Not only is the percentage display grossly wrong, if you don't touch the box (because you can't do anything else), the screensaver kicks in and shows you the menu underneath -- totally useless. Downloads instantly start at 5% done. Abort and restart it, and it'll automatically be 50% done. Abort and restart it again and it'll be 100% done and quit downloading.
    • Once you get a download, the default action is to re-download it. Which, if you accept this, it'll delete (without warning) and start again. The default action should be "go to my download". No, actually, the default action should be "play my download", but they don't have that -- you have to go through 2 more menus to actually play it.
    • The box constantly logs me in and out - some things need me in, some out.
    • Menu items are inconsistent. Even on the same menu, some items are highlighted by brightening the center, others are highlighted by brightening the edges.
    • When you quit a game, the OS doesn't know if you've saved the game or not. So, it'll always warn you that you are about to lose data, even if you haven't started a game. A little communication between the OS and games, please!
    • The unit is really loud. Much louder than my PC or my microwave.
    • The only auto-power off option is "never" or "6 hours". I'd like it to power off after downloading my games -- I hope 6 hours is enough -- and preferably ASAP because the fans are really loud.
    • There is no headphones jack. I use it with my monitor, which supports HDTV but not audio.
    • There are some things you do that apparently require it to reboot (it doesn't tell you), which autostarts the game. Frustrating if you say "do xxx" and it starts the game instead of going to the menu you were previously at.


    The controller is genius. It feels solid and comfortable, the radio works well.
    Graphics have been a letdown compared to my PC.
    The software is amazingly half-baked considering they've had 4 months after the release date to fix it.
    --
    HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
    1. Re:new user notes by Dance_Dance_Karnov · · Score: 2, Insightful

      what I hate is not having the ability to boot to menu, ala the DS.

    2. Re:new user notes by DeadScreenSky · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most of your problems just sound like new user issues, honestly.

      Downloads are fux0red. You can only download one at a time, and while that's happening you can't do anything else. There is no time display, only a percentage display. Not only is the percentage display grossly wrong, if you don't touch the box (because you can't do anything else), the screensaver kicks in and shows you the menu underneath -- totally useless. Downloads instantly start at 5% done. Abort and restart it, and it'll automatically be 50% done. Abort and restart it again and it'll be 100% done and quit downloading.
      Limiting downloads is actually a feature, sort of. The X360 isn't a PC. Games expect to get complete hardware performance every time they run (technically 5% or so of one of the cores is devoted to the GUI, but you understand what I mean). Yeah, I guess you could still want to listen to music or something while you download a demo, but the interface isn't really designed for multitasking like that. That's a good call, it's already fairly complicated enough for a gaming system. Like I said, it's a console, not a PC.

      You want the screensaver to cut in. Some HDTVs are very susceptible to burn-in. The controller turns off too, to save power. I guess that could be mildly annoying to some people, but I don't think you are expected to just sit there and watch the download.

      The 50% resume issue is a little bizarre, but it's not really much of a problem IMO. I've never had that fake 100% issue before, and I've resumed and stopped downloads all of the time.

      The box constantly logs me in and out - some things need me in, some out.
      Like your problem with unexpected reboots, this sounds like an issue with software updates for a new system. I'm not sure I consider it a problem myself, but you won't really have to worry about it now.

      Menu items are inconsistent. Even on the same menu, some items are highlighted by brightening the center, others are highlighted by brightening the edges.
      Where does this specifically occur? I've never noticed this.

      When you quit a game, the OS doesn't know if you've saved the game or not. So, it'll always warn you that you are about to lose data, even if you haven't started a game. A little communication between the OS and games, please!
      This is more of an issue with shoddy games that don't autosave, generally lazy multiplatform releases. It's not a problem with the consoles. Games like DOA4 will never make this complaint. It just autosaves in the background when you unlock or accomplish something new. This kind of thing was pretty standard even on the better Xbox1 games.

      The unit is really loud. Much louder than my PC or my microwave.
      It is very loud. This is probably my biggest complaint with the console. That said, my PS2 is roughly the same volume, maybe even louder. So is my new videocard. I understand why they don't allow this, but it's too bad you couldn't upgrade the fans to something higher-end and quieter like I have with my PC's CPU.

      Graphics have been a letdown compared to my PC.
      Wow, seriously? What PC games am I missing exactly? I've had the completely opposite experience. I haven't seen anything on the PC that looks as good as PGR3, DOA4, Kameo, GRAW, Full Auto, and occasionally PD0. This is the first videocard upgrade I've really been disappointed with, and it's solely because nothing has come close to the X360 I've had for months.

      And I'm a big fan of the controller too. One of these days I have to pick up the wired version for my PC. It's just so damn comfortable.

      --
      There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion. -- Francis Bacon
    3. Re:new user notes by Burpmaster · · Score: 2, Informative
      Name another console (non-portable) with a headphone jack.

      3DO. It had a headphone jack at the bottom of each controller.

    4. Re:new user notes by cgenman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Limiting downloads is actually a feature, sort of. The X360 isn't a PC. Games expect to get complete hardware performance every time they run (technically 5% or so of one of the cores is devoted to the GUI, but you understand what I mean).

      Yes, but you should at least be able to navigate the dashboard, start other downloads, chat with friends, etc. Downloading itself isn't a particularly processor intensive task, and it shouldn't be too difficult for the system to put up a "download in progress... game is paused" message for anyone who tries to enter or resume a game.

      I expect we'll see this improve as MS releases more dashboard updates.

      The box constantly logs me in and out - some things need me in, some out.
      Like your problem with unexpected reboots, this sounds like an issue with software updates for a new system. I'm not sure I consider it a problem myself, but you won't really have to worry about it now.

      This rather bothers me as well. I'd much rather be logged in or not depending upon how I feel, rather than what the internal state of the box wants.

      When you quit a game, the OS doesn't know if you've saved the game or not... A little communication between the OS and games, please!
      This is more of an issue with shoddy games that don't autosave, generally lazy multiplatform releases.

      Lots of games on the PS2 autosave, just as lots of Xbox games didn't. There seems to be a lot of developers around who haven't quite understood that it isn't save and autosave anymore, it is save and manual save.

      DOA can get away with autosaving without warnings because there really isn't any moment-to-moment progress to be lost. However, in an RPG every resource you consume or action you take could count as progress, and as such unless you're going to hit the memory card every second or two, you need to warn the player.

      This is really only a problem for the X360 because that's the only console that has the concept of "quitting" a game. You don't quit anything on the PS2, you just turn the machine off.

      And really, that summarizes all of the growing pains the X360 is experiencing. It took a very simple thing, a console, and expanded it out in new directions. Some of those are painful and confusing. Some aren't.

      --
      The ______ Agenda
    5. Re:new user notes by DeadScreenSky · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yes, but you should at least be able to navigate the dashboard, start other downloads, chat with friends, etc. Downloading itself isn't a particularly processor intensive task, and it shouldn't be too difficult for the system to put up a "download in progress... game is paused" message for anyone who tries to enter or resume a game.

      I expect we'll see this improve as MS releases more dashboard updates.

      I didn't think about chatting with friends. That's a good point. I guess I just only download demos when I'm not using the console, so it's never seemed like a big deal to me.

      This rather bothers me as well. I'd much rather be logged in or not depending upon how I feel, rather than what the internal state of the box wants.

      You can log out anytime you want (or just make yourself look like you're logged out). The only reason the system forces you to log out is when it is a necessity (generally for software updates).

      Lots of games on the PS2 autosave, just as lots of Xbox games didn't. There seems to be a lot of developers around who haven't quite understood that it isn't save and autosave anymore, it is save and manual save.

      DOA can get away with autosaving without warnings because there really isn't any moment-to-moment progress to be lost. However, in an RPG every resource you consume or action you take could count as progress, and as such unless you're going to hit the memory card every second or two, you need to warn the player.

      This is really only a problem for the X360 because that's the only console that has the concept of "quitting" a game. You don't quit anything on the PS2, you just turn the machine off.

      I didn't mean to imply that only the Xbox1 did autosaves, though it was pretty rare on the PS2 and Gamecube. It definitely is a developer education issue.

      Autosaves in an RPG are more of a gameplay design issue than anything. Of course since the X360 doesn't have any yet that can't be what the grandparent post was complaining about. But it's pretty ridiculous that games like Burnout Revenge and Amped 3 pop up big "now saving" messages that stop the game in its tracks every time you accomplish anything. DOA4 saves in the background after every battle and it doesn't slow the game down at all. That's clearly not a console issue, it's a developer issue.

      And really, that summarizes all of the growing pains the X360 is experiencing. It took a very simple thing, a console, and expanded it out in new directions. Some of those are painful and confusing. Some aren't.

      Well put.

      --
      There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion. -- Francis Bacon
    6. Re:new user notes by alyre · · Score: 1

      The Sega Genesis had a headphone jack.

    7. Re:new user notes by jherekc · · Score: 1

      I'd just like to point out that pretty much every game I have for the Gamecube (between 15 and 20, can't be bothered to count them) autosaves at relevant points. Admittedly most of these are games actually by Nintendo.

      --
      "lack of quality control is one of the pillars of slashdot"
    8. Re:new user notes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      It is very loud. This is probably my biggest complaint with the console. That said, my PS2 is roughly the same volume, maybe even louder.

      WTF? The PS2 isn't even half as loud as the 360. If yours is even louder it's got a serious problem.

      I haven't seen anything on the PC that looks as good as PGR3, DOA4, Kameo, GRAW, Full Auto, and occasionally PD0.

      FEAR, AOE3, Quake 4, B&W 2, X3 Reunion, TRD3, Half-life 2 LC just to name a few.
      As for the 360 games you mentioned, PGR3, Kameo, PD0 are jaggy-filled nightmares (no anti-aliasing or AF) and PGR3 runs at a mere 600p - it's not even high-def. Full Auto suffers incredible slow-downs when in 720p mode. DOA looks like it could have been done on the original Xbox (there isn't even self-shadowing on the fighters), and GRAW suffers from a complete lack of AF and poor framerates in single-player mode while having no AA in multiplayer (as well as even worse slowdowns).

      This is the first videocard upgrade I've really been disappointed with, and it's solely because nothing has come close to the X360 I've had for months.

      It's more like you obviously haven't played a PC game in months. That, or you're just another Microsoft astroturfer.

    9. Re:new user notes by mink · · Score: 1

      Turbo Duo (PC Engine) and I think Turbo Graphics 16 had earphone jack and volume knob.

      --
      Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
  10. User Headspace Error by Stormcrow309 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Several people I know have gotten their 360s that I know. The major issue that I have seen is the insuffecient grey matter heap size issue. You know, PEBKAC.

    Three friends and a brother all have had the heat issue. They kept their consoles in nice av cabinets, one with a glass front. No air flow. A-B user interaction error. We had this problem with high performance gaming PCs and enclosed areas. Local user issue.

    --

    In God we trust, all others require data.

    1. Re:User Headspace Error by rafemonkey · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is the same mistake Microsoft made. They, like you, assume that the 360 is a computer, and people will treat it as such. But the reality is that a game console is not supposed to be a computer. It's a piece of AV hardware, and it ought to work like it, since that's how people are going to treat it. Think of it like a VCR, it needs to be able to go in the cabinet under the TV and still work.

    2. Re:User Headspace Error by aesiamun · · Score: 1

      I have a Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000 DVR. Timewarner rents these to us.

      It has a fan, runs excessively hot and I was told not to put it in my AV cabinet because it would over heat...

      Doesn't work like it used to anymore...you can't just assume that because it's not a computer that you can lock it in a space with no moving air.

    3. Re:User Headspace Error by SilentChris · · Score: 1

      "This is the same mistake Microsoft made. They, like you, assume that the 360 is a computer, and people will treat it as such. But the reality is that a game console is not supposed to be a computer. It's a piece of AV hardware, and it ought to work like it, since that's how people are going to treat it. Think of it like a VCR, it needs to be able to go in the cabinet under the TV and still work."

      If that's the case, all three companies are going to be in serious trouble this generation. You've got Microsoft, who's already released a console that can get hot if you put it in an enclosed area. You've got Sony, who's not shown a single prototype with ventilation holes (rumor has it Cell gets very hot). And you have Nintendo, which should be fine in the heat department but pretty much will require internet connectivity for the main feature of the system, emulated games (not everyone has the luxury of an internet connection in their living room).

      Truth is, none of these systems are really designed as AV equipment. They're being treated as computer equipment by the manufacturers because they ARE computer equipment. All 3 are going to go far beyond the original concept of what a "gaming console" is: playing media, downloading files, etc. They're essentially regular computers in a living room setting. This is a shift, and it's something the companies will just have to teach families how to properly handle (it starts with lots of warnings in the intruction manual).

    4. Re:User Headspace Error by rafemonkey · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree that all of the next gen consoles are computers and really need to be treated as such. But the problem is that they are being marketed as game consoles, and every game console back to dawn of time (or the late 1970s) has been a peice of AV hardware. Companies go out of their way to market them as such, to avoid losing potential consumers who have no interest in computers, or even find them scary. That the next gen consoles really are computers doesn't change the way consumers percive them. This can be interperated in two ways, consumers are dumb, or somebody doesn't understand their target market. Imagine the following scenario...

      Customer: This Microsoft car 360 keeps crashing.
      Support: How are you using it?
      Customer: Well, I was just driving down the road...
      Support: AHA! That's the problem. Car 360 is a perfomance machine, you sould only opperate it on closed racetracks.

    5. Re:User Headspace Error by cornface · · Score: 1

      And you have Nintendo, which should be fine in the heat department but pretty much will require internet connectivity for the main feature of the system, emulated games (not everyone has the luxury of an internet connection in their living room).

      Thankfully they sell a Nintendo branded USB wifi dongle for just this type of situation.

    6. Re:User Headspace Error by some+guy+on+slashdot · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You're getting warmer, but you still aren't quite on the money yet. A video game console isn't a piece of AV equipment; it's a toy. As such, it should be able to deal with running on top of a pile of clothes in a kid's room, on the floor, on a stack of pizza boxes, stacked on top of other gaming hardware, pretty much anywhere. It also needs to be able to withstand being kicked, having the wires pull out suddenly, being gnawed on by pets, etc. No matter how much shiny plastic we may cover it in, we cannot hide the fact that play is messy.

      Dare I go so far as to point out that Nintendo is the only major player in the console market that has experience making toys?

    7. Re:User Headspace Error by SilentChris · · Score: 1

      "The 360 CPU generates twice as much heat as the Broadband Engine."

      Actually, I read whitepapers that said, while a single core of the engine is quite low in heat (comparitively, anyway, to modern-day processors), all of them running at once can generate twice as much heat as a standard dual-core x86. Granted, you're talking about a triple-core PowerPC in the Xbox 360, but the temperatures the guys at Xbox-Scene have measured are no where near what I saw in IBM's whitepaper.

      So, I guess you could say Cell uses a low-heat engine -- if you're running at 1/2 or maybe 1/4 processing. Maybe that's Sony's plan! :)

    8. Re:User Headspace Error by SilentChris · · Score: 1

      Except they haven't totally verified that the USB dongle will work with Revolution. For that matter, suppose the user has 56K? This is bad enough trying to play Mario Kart on DS -- imagine downloading N64 games on it.

      A lot of people lambast the 360 (and it's predecessor) for requiring broadband. I have a feeling Nintendo is going to require the same thing, and not everyone has broadband yet. Especially considering they're marketing a low-priced system to people without HDTVs (lower-class families), it's odd that you're pretty much going to need broadband to get a reasonable gaming experience out of the box.

    9. Re:User Headspace Error by cornface · · Score: 1

      Except they haven't totally verified that the USB dongle will work with Revolution. For that matter, suppose the user has 56K? This is bad enough trying to play Mario Kart on DS -- imagine downloading N64 games on it.

      Suppose the user is blind! Imagine playing Mario Golf with no eyes!

      Give me a break.

    10. Re:User Headspace Error by Stormcrow309 · · Score: 1

      Really high end AV equipment overheats all of the time. Add in Windows Media Center and DVRs (why do you think that the tivo has temp sensor) which are both heat sensitive. A good highend amp can fry an egg. I have an audiophile friend that proved it. As our kit gets more complex, we will need to worry about heat, internet connection, emi, and a plethora of issues. Welcome to the information age. I have a 360, Tivo, VCR (because my wife is a ludite), HD Digital Cable Box, A wireless router (needed a switch so I added an AP while I was at it to my network), Windows Media Center, and a decent audio setup right under my plasma tv. I had to have all sorts of cabling and wiring installed. I also had to worry about power pull, since my house has a wiring plan from the 70s. So, to setup my dream system, I had to get an electriction to sort out my house's wiring (Thank god for my Father in Law), run Cat 5 under the house (I can do this, including great ends), check for heat build-up in the av cabinet, and still had to add a fan to help with air-flow. AV has become complex again.

      --

      In God we trust, all others require data.

    11. Re:User Headspace Error by MentosPimp · · Score: 1

      A house without HDTV is "lower class"? give me a break.

      And where is this "you're pretty much going to need broadband to get a reasonable gaming experience out of the box." coming from? And how is that not true for every console of the next generation?

    12. Re:User Headspace Error by SilentChris · · Score: 1

      "A house without HDTV is "lower class"? give me a break."

      One could easily argue that anyone who purchases the cheapest of the 3 systems with games from 20 years ago is lower-class. I mean, a person with a decent amount of money would buy the better systems (or perhaps all 3). They could get the same results out of an emulator. *shrug* But Nintendo has always kind of bowed to the lowest common denominator -- that's why they're in the position they're in now.

    13. Re:User Headspace Error by SilentChris · · Score: 1

      You're telling me the dongle is an option. I'm telling you it's not. Logistically, it makes no sense to have a service which'll essentially be downloading ROMS run through anything less than broadband. Since the dongle can be connected to anything, it's a problem.

      I don't know if you've tried playing Mario Kart with the dongle connected to anything less than broadband, but it's painful. Even with broadband there are a lot of fits and starts. Now take that experience and amplify it now that you're downloading 8 MB ROMS. See the issue?

      The original poster felt Sony and Microsoft are marketing computer gear as AV equipment this generation. I'm saying all 3 are. Having a dongle to do Wi-Fi doesn't fix the problem that most people who buy the Revolution won't have a lot of cash, won't have broadband, and will likely wonder why the emulation service is so slow. That's always a problem when you sell to the lower-class, and Nintendo isn't addressing it well.

    14. Re:User Headspace Error by MentosPimp · · Score: 1

      Except your comment wasnt about the future Nintendo system, it was about HDTV's.

          And one COULD argue that someone is "lower-class" based on something as superficial as a console choice. But the person making that argument would be idiot and/or a troll.

    15. Re:User Headspace Error by SilentChris · · Score: 1

      "And one COULD argue that someone is "lower-class" based on something as superficial as a console choice. But the person making that argument would be idiot and/or a troll."

      Sure thing "MentosPimp". Your opinions are just as valid as mine. *rolls eyes*

    16. Re:User Headspace Error by MentosPimp · · Score: 1

      I welcome you to point out an opinion of mine that is as off-base
      as you denigrating an entire group of people based on the electronics they own.

      About 90% (maybe less, but certainly not lower than 80%) of America does not have an HDTV. According to you they are "lower class" That may be an opinion, but I believe your average person would see that as a baseless insult.

      But you are free to point out that silly usernames on a Website have
      some bearing on the content you are posting. I'm sure it will be as insightful as your socio-economic musings.

  11. Re:Wow...its kind of hard to believe. by ivan256 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    any moron thats ever built a computer at all knows that modern CPU's and GPU's need big fat heatsinks...with thermal compound in between.

    It's a good thing you used 'moron' in there. Plenty of modern GPUs work just fine with rather small heatsinks. Practically no video card manufacturers use compound on their chips.

    You seem to have bought into the 'performance cooling' crap that has sprung out of the overclocking craze in the late '90s. There are plenty of transfer materials that work as well or better than thermal compounds. Even though the conventional wisdom amongst hobbiests is that compound is the best, especially the expensive ones... In reality there are a variety of thermal pads that work better, but in a more permanent way. Usually they melt on first use to flow into surfaces, or they glue themselves to the chip and the heatsink.

    The foil probably works fine until after the first time you remove it.

  12. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by SnprBoB86 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Right, so whatever hocky game my friend has is NOT GOOD SOFTWARE.

    Geometry wars, Call of Duty 2, Halo 2, Full Auto, and the various other games do not exhibit this behavior. Shitty, buggy games exist on all platforms.

    --
    http://brandonbloom.name
  13. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by MrJynxx · · Score: 1

    I've had my xbox360 since launch.. I haven't played it immensely but the only things that annoyed me was call to duty2 wouldn't save properly (which i hear was fixed, but i can't stand to do that training mission one more time!) and dead or alive 4 crashed when it was in multiplayer a few times.

    I have not had any any freezing problems.. Mine stands vertically but it isn't in a cabinet. I can see that being a problem because it does get warm.

      And I must say Ghost Recon is an amazing game ! :)

    MrJynx

  14. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by alienw · · Score: 1

    Well, if you aren't playing games on it, there is little chance of it overheating. Heat is produced when the CPU is heavily loaded. If it's just sitting there idle, it won't dissipate a whole lot of power.

  15. 360 -- which 360? by shrinkwrap · · Score: 5, Funny

    I guess I'm getting old. When I saw the title, I immediately thought, "Who is still using IBM 360s?"

    1. Re:360 -- which 360? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      I remember for quite a while after the PS2 launch, the first thing that always popped into my head when someone said "PS2" was the old IBM computers with the same name*.

      *Yes, I know they were called PS/2, not PS2. But I have always heard them pronounced the same way.

  16. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Count yourself lucky,
    My 360 wrote a country and western song about your 360 running off with your dog and kicking your girl.

  17. Thermal Pad? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    What thermal pad are they talking about? Those pads are for Electrical Insulation! They also are more resistant to heat transfer making them bad. You only use them when you need to electrically isolate the component from the heatsink. IE multiple transistors with active tabs on a shared heatsink. For a processor like that you want the chip as close to the heatsink as possible for best heat conductivity. Heatsink grease is only used to fill in any air spaces (nothing is completly flat) between the chip and the heatsink. The grease conducts heat much better than air but not as well as direct contact.

  18. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by HunterWare · · Score: 3, Funny

    Gosh, I bet you miss it.

  19. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by SilentChris · · Score: 1

    Just want to echo that sentiment. Since I got mine in December, I haven't had a single issue with it. I use it regularly to play games and DVDs. No scratching, no overheating, and to be honest it's not that loud (certainly not louder than my gaming rig PC).

    The system needs more games (most consoles do in their first few months), the UI needs some work, but outside that it's a pretty solid machine.

  20. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by lanswitch · · Score: 1

    The girlfriend, or the dog?

  21. Figures anyone??? by xtieburn · · Score: 1

    Has anyone I mean ANYONE anywhere. Got _actual_ figures of how many X-Box360's have gone wrong. Anyone, anyone at all?

    Doesnt seem like it.

    Last MS said no more are going wrong than any other launch. I dont really believe them but the alternative is /. and these quite frankly biassed and rubbish articles that make it seem like every other 360 is blowing up. My friends have about 5 between them non has ever crashed or had any problems at all so this doesnt seem to believable either.

    Everyone who hasnt seems to think they are all dying. Everyone in the media are pleased to report on an endless catastrophe. Yet everyone who has one seems to be fairly pleased with them? That doesnt add up.

    Until someone has some hard figures on the rate of 360's that are going wrong this remains just one big, annoying, fanboys of other hardware, rumour.

    (Note although I doubt it will get anywhere this is a serious question. Can someone please for the love of God find some actual figures on this issue because all my efforts have been futile.)

    1. Re:Figures anyone??? by wayoutwest · · Score: 1

      Well, this is anecdotal, but we own 9 xbox360's and have 3 more customers that bring in their own to play on our network. (We own a network game center.) So our systems are also on 12+ hours per day and are under very high use.

      So, out of our personal experience with 12 separate systems - 9 Premiums and 3 Cores - we have had one unit fail. It developed the 3 Red LED flashing issue, we called the very next morning. Microsoft had the shipping box to us the following business day, and 4 business days later, we received a replacement system.

      We also had one controller go stupid, with the right trigger sending sporadic info that is was held in, even with no hands on the controller.

      We are adding 8 more premium systems in April, as soon as they are in the supply chain.

    2. Re:Figures anyone??? by Necronomicode · · Score: 1

      Well I found a Premium 360 finally, and have had mild trouble from the beginning.

      No red LEDs but instead I get random lockups. Most notably Kameo locks up (indeed it managed to corrupt my saved game losing me hours of play), magazine disks have locked up too. The most concerning though is that I've had lockups on watching DVDs, I managed to get through two episodes of the Simpsons before it froze. [It's funny when the game locks up during a point where the controller is vibrating - the vibrat^H^H^H^H^H^Hcontroller just keeps on going].

      Oddly Call of Duty 2 and PGR3 appear to be fine, and I get no issues playing CDs. I've tried all sorts of things to increase ventilation, I've removed the HD, all to no avail.

      I rang Microsoft support but at the time their servers had crashed (how ironic), they suggested some things but nothing that helped so I need to call again to see whats next. It's a bit tricky if they want to replace it as most of the time I'll be at work so I'll need to book time off if it needs to be returned.

      I just haven't seen any real figures for 360 failures and haven't seen anybody with my particular freezing issue. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the replacement one will be perfect.

  22. What are "new user issues"? by LKM · · Score: 1

    What do you mean by "new user issues"? You mean "things people will eventually learn to work around"? Come on, most of these are just usability issues, they could be fixed in software, and they should have been caught in a rew usability testing iterations.

    Your parent poster obviously didn't figure out what was going on with respect to, say, auto-log-off. That's not his problem, it's Microsoft's problem for not making it clear.

    Sure, eventually he'll learn, but why should he have to?

    1. Re:What are "new user issues"? by DeadScreenSky · · Score: 1

      What do you mean by "new user issues"? You mean "things people will eventually learn to work around"? Come on, most of these are just usability issues, they could be fixed in software, and they should have been caught in a rew usability testing iterations.

      Your parent poster obviously didn't figure out what was going on with respect to, say, auto-log-off. That's not his problem, it's Microsoft's problem for not making it clear.

      Sure, eventually he'll learn, but why should he have to?

      Complex things sometimes take a while to learn. It'd be wonderful if everything was completely obvious from the start, but that's impossible (at least without sacrificing advanced usability). The important thing is that they shouldn't take that long to learn or figure out. The poster I was referring to had basically just purchased his X360. I wrote "new user issues" because they hadn't even had it for a week. I guarantee that after two weeks he would have had considerably less complaints. It isn't that complex of a device - I'm not talking about it taking four months to figure out! But in a lot of ways the X360 offers a new approach to certain console capabilities, and it can take a little while to adjust to them. It's not any more complicated than my cable box, and it took me roughly a week to get a handle on that's TV-on-demand interface.

      For obvious reasons I can't really test it right now, but I'm 99% positive the auto-log-offs state very clearly that they need to do it for an update.

      --
      There is no excellent beauty that hath not some strangeness in the proportion. -- Francis Bacon
  23. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

    Good software doesn't crash. Games don't crash much, maybe once a year (and under extraordinary circumstances only) as long as you don't throw in mods. Okay, there are a few awfully made games that crash every second time you start them but those are the exception.

    I've had one crash on my Gamecube (ignoring Sonic 2 because that was emulated and I could still tell the emulator to reset) even though I own the system for quite a few years now and before that crash the drive made really bad noises so I suppose not crashing would have caused damage to the hardware in that case. My PS2 didn't crash once.

    Games are much less likely to crash than productivity applications in my experience.

    --
    Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  24. Mine works fine by cmdprompt · · Score: 1

    I have had no problems with crashing scratching of discs etc. I have had mine since December 2005 and no crashes It is in a relitivly warm room sitting verticly.My friend who also has one has had no crashes either.

  25. Re:Wow...its kind of hard to believe. by Briareos · · Score: 1
    Plenty of modern GPUs work just fine with rather small heatsinks. Practically no video card manufacturers use compound on their chips.

    Well, what occupied the PCI slot below my Sapphire Radeon X1900 XT was practically a very big heatsink with a fan inside...

    Oh, and there was no thermal compound between the heatsink and the fan - probably because sticking a thermal pad between these two is easier in the manufacturing process.

    Thanks to the fan sounding like your neighbour's leaf blower I've replaced the heatsink/fan combo with a water block; I don't want to overclock it (might even underclock it a little), as that damn thing goes up to 92C with the stock heatsink/fan combo and still got to 84C with my reserator - while this probably are normal working temperatures for the GPU it heats the room a bit too much for my liking - clocking it down from 620MHz to 500MHz made it stay at 65C...
    --

    "I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole

  26. Re:Wow...its kind of hard to believe. by ivan256 · · Score: 1

    what occupied the PCI slot below my Sapphire Radeon X1900 XT was practically a very big heatsink with a fan inside...

    The large heatsink is to keep the noise down. A smaller heatsink would work just fine. You think the big fan/heatsink was bad? Imagine the same volume but higher pitched. Also, that heatsink probably cools the memory too, and was probably signifigant overkill. Believe it or not, those big-assed heatsinks sell product, because bigger is better, right? If it's getting that hot, maybe your case has poor circulation (just as easily caused by too many fans as too few), or maybe the manufacturer sucks.

    probably because sticking a thermal pad between these two is easier in the manufacturing process.

    It may be easier. It probably also works better. The melting type pads are generally more effective than compound, and are much less likely to be installed improperly.

  27. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by mink · · Score: 1

    Since we are sharing experiences.
    I've had my Gamecube crash in a couple of games with disk read errors (after making funny drive noises) over the years (I bought one when it was launched).
    My 1st PS2 quit reading media (version 1) and I need to re-calibrate it.
    My 2nd PS2 (version 2) was flat out incompatible with one game (Zone of the Enders) and it would lock up while the game loaded. Media was fine, and once I started using an HDD and the HDD loader software I could read the entire legit disc into the HDD and it would play fine. During the same time Ghost Hunter would lock up from time to time (both game did not give me any kind of disc read error). Finally about 6 months later, it stopped reading media and needs to be re-calibrated.
    My 3rd PS2 (version 4 or 5) reads everything and works fine so far.

    I think that the poor design decisions and crap manufacturing of SONY products as well as design changes and component shrinking are why there are at least as many versions of PS2 as there are Cylons (Rise of the Machines).

    --
    Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
  28. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by elrous0 · · Score: 1
    I think I just came up with the lyrics for the perfect country song.

    -Eric

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  29. Re:Tragedy Becomes Farce by brassmaster · · Score: 1

    Can /. do polls? This seems like a good poll topic. Just a thought.