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UK Demands Sourcecode for Strike Fighters

An anonymous reader writes ""The UK has warned America that it will cancel its £12bn order for the Joint Strike Fighter if the US does not hand over full access to the computer software code that controls the jets" Lord Drayson, minister for defense procurement, told the The Daily Telegraph that the planes were useless without control of the software as they could effectively be "switched off" by the Americans without warning."

38 of 800 comments (clear)

  1. Not quite an alarmist reason for the software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    With all that code, they don't want to buy this plane and then find out that it'll cost them a SIGNIFICANT amount of money later down the road to integrate a new weapons system or sensor onto the aircraft. The US can't 'turn off the software', the software doesn't have a 'Windows Activation'-style system to tell it whether it can run the aircraft or not!

  2. No order yet by El+Cabri · · Score: 4, Informative

    I don't think that the UK has ordered any JSF yet. What they did is pay part of the development costs, in return for the promise of a share of the industrial pie when the plane enters production. Their high level of financial participation was also supposed to buy them some input in the specification and some sharing of classified technologies, but the Americans largely didn't carry out that part of the deal, which has provoked transatlantic tension lately.

    The JSF is supposed to equip the RNs future carrier ships around around 2015. However as a response to the US Congress looking at cancelation of plans for a Rolls-Royce engine equiped version of the JSF, the British have hinted that they could very well start developing a naval version of the Eurofighter Typhoon, or even consider the already operationnal naval version of the French Rafale.

    1. Re:No order yet by gurudyne · · Score: 5, Informative

      "US Congress looking at cancelation(sic) of plans for a Rolls-Royce engine equiped(sic) version"

      Not quite. There are two engine versions right now. The primary version, F135, is by Pratt-Whitney. It uses Rolls-Royce LiftFan (c) components for the F-35B STOVL. After the first several dozen engine/fan sets, GE was supposed to be able to bid with its F136, which has slightly greater RR partnership with the core turbojet and still uses RR LiftFan components. In other words ALL F-35B aircraft will use the LiftFan components.

      RR gets a large slice of the engine pie regardless. It is just slightly larger with the possible GE participation. One of the ideas here is with a competitor's version as an option, there can be a bidding war in the taxpayers' favor.

      And, until they mount bayonet lugs on the F-35B pitot tube, it won't really be a close ground support aircraft.

      --
      Hey, Mom! Is it beer, yet?
  3. Re:Is that for real? by w42w42 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The best explanation I've read is that they cannot adapt their weapons for use on the JSF w/o Lockheed/US Govt help. It has nothing to do with the US being able to *turn off* their JSF's.

    I've also read that the French giving the Brits more than they were asking for with the design of their new carriers notes a possible side deal, that being them buying French Rafale's. If this is the case, the JSF issue has already been decided, and what we're seeing here is simply public posturing. Never seen a politician do that before :-)

  4. Re:Folks, the Cold War is over by dorkygeek · · Score: 3, Informative
    Hehe, USian fits you damn well. You don't seem to know the slightest bit outside your little world, do you?

    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29:

    Many pundits such as the Federation of American Scientists recognize that in an individual match-up, the MiG-29 is potentially better than the F-15 Eagle or F-16 Falcon.
    Russian fighters are indeed pretty good!

    --
    Windows is like decaf - it tastes like the real thing, but it won't get you through the day.
  5. Re:How SPECIAL is the UK to the US? by El+Cabri · · Score: 3, Informative

    They don't absolutely need these planes to be V/STOL since they are to be used on their future, full-size carrier which, unlike their existing mini-carriers will be able to operate any kind of naval jet like F/A-18 or Rafale M provided they are fitted with a catapult.

    The design of their future carriers is already supposed to be largely shared with that of France's second carrier which is supposed anyway to operate Rafales. So the decision to dump V/STOL would simplify things actually.

  6. Re:Source Code Won't Help by stonefoz · · Score: 2, Informative

    Bootstraping the compiler first is a must for any security, at least if you don't trust it. if you don't know what your compiler is doing, you don't know much. I'm thankful gentoo makes it much easier that by hand, but cross compiling would almost be a given, so anything that reads the source should work. I'd trust gcc from the original site. I don't know of any "real" crosscompilers that are not opensource. But, the only problem is if it runs wince, I'd ask for my money back.

    --
    I think I just cashed out all my cool points.
  7. Folks, the War of 1812 is over by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 2, Informative
    Actually Canada is part of the Americas. Specifically North America. But we're not part of the United States of America. We are not Americans. You probably just offended a tonne of other Canadians by saying we could be considered Americans. We define what we call ourselves, and we don't consider ourselves Americans, even though they are our closest friend, are our neighbour, and we are the worlds biggest trading partners ($US1.5B to $US2B/day).

    Now that said, I personally don't get too worked up over others trying to call me American, but I do want to correct them. I actually like America... I lived in Missouri for 5 years (hence 'theshowmecanuck' for the 'show me' state), and wouldn't have stayed there that long if I didn't like it. But I am Canadian, not American. Mind you, there are some Canadians who forget the 'War of 1812' ended 192 years ago, and do get quite upset over being called American (or anything else American). I don't get it myself. We have differences, but who doesn't.

    --
    -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
  8. Re:Folks, the Cold War is over by Moofie · · Score: 3, Informative

    Russian AIRFRAMES are superb. Russian engines are pretty OK, but not as reliable, and much more labor intensive to maintain. Russian avionics are crap. If you don't know how these facts impact an air battle, you don't have an educated opinion on the subject.

    --
    Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
  9. Re:Smoke screen? by csirac · · Score: 4, Informative
    I don't remember hearing that any of the software associated with those programs was being denied to the end user.

    Wrong, Australia was burnt with both the F/A-18 Hornet and F-111.

    A Big Deal: Australia's air combat capability:

    There are a number of lessons to be learnt from the experience of industry involvement in the F/A-18 program...


    ... A further significant hangover from the F/A-18A program was caused by the unsatisfactory handling of technology transfer and of intellectual property. Australia had expectations that, as a consequence of our large capital outlay, significant technology relating to manufacture and support of the aircraft would be transferred to Australia and access would be granted to software source code. Australia's expectations were not met, although when considered against our ability to usefully exploit the software code they may have been unrealistically high. Perhaps the core of the software issue was our lack of access to the source code needed for a full understanding of the aircraft radar, and an inability to reprogram the electronic warfare system in accordance with Australian requirements.


    Countries generally want to be self-sufficient, or at least don't want to be trapped into being dependant on others.

    Also important is that instead of the government allowing native defense contractors to take on upgrade projects, we are forced into using (expensive) US ones. So that expense goes into a black-hole, it doesn't stimulate our own economy or develop our own aviation industry.

    This is not comparable to desktop software at all.
  10. They're right. Do we care? If so, then what? by eagl · · Score: 4, Informative

    The issue is very valid. The question is twofold - Is the US willing to fully share ALL of our military technology with any other country during a period of relative peace (even as strong an ally as the UK), and what price are we willing to pay to keep our most advanced military capabilities to ourselves? Security vs. the budget. A military expert will say that it's stupid to spill all your secrets to ANYONE because mere knowledge of a capability is enough to allow an adversary (or potential adversary) to begin defeating that capability. A budget planner will say that without sharing the technology with partners who will share the program costs, we can't afford to build the hardware so those capabilities would remain purely theoretical (worthless).

    Maybe it's better to do the basic research ourselves but not go that final step to building the hardware until we actually need to use it. This seems to happen a lot, holding back expensive upgrades and hardware purchases until a conflict kicks off, then funding/fielding the new stuff immediately as the budget expands when a conflict arises. But the JSF is such a massive project, it may not be possible to back-burner the program as a US-only effort. That means we may have to compromise some very unique capabilities in order to be able to actually field them ourselves. Tough choice.

    Can't blame the JSF partners for playing hardball though... The JSF is almost entirely software driven as almost every single system is operated via a touch-screen interface instead of traditional switches, so not having the source code means that when something breaks, fixing it is somewhat more problematic than replacing a defective hardware switch. If you don't have the code, you have a really expensive flying Xbox that could quit working without warning and can't possibly be repaired.

    You can't even replace busted hardware without the required software, because the hardware is all operated and tested via software. You can't just flip a switch to test the radar, because the switch is controlled by the computer which (should) report system status and troubleshooting data if it quits working.

    A sensible approach would be to distribute an export version of the software, but I'm pretty sure that the original contract did not include parallel-but-equal lines of code development. To duplicate a multi-million-line codebase at this stage in the program would be cost prohibitive. You'd think they would have thought of this before... Like 15 years ago...

  11. Re:Assembly??? by general_re · · Score: 3, Informative
    Probably C++, but perhaps Ada.

    Always Ada. Invariably Ada. 90-95% of it is in Ada, I'm sure, with only a very, very few well-delineated and tested exceptions. Ada is DoD standard, and they'll hang up on you if you call with a proposal that involves something else.

    --
    ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
  12. Re:Don't know why Australia keeps going back... by lbrandy · · Score: 3, Informative

    I've got a brother-in-law who works with the F-18's and there's absolutely no end to the 'critical failures' that they're seeing. Given the technical 'superiority' of these JSF's, I'm expecting they'll barely get out of the maintainance hangers.

    To be fair, after a lot of overhauls and modifications the F1-11 actually turned out to be a good plane, the F-18 on the other hand...


    Oh, please. I was an engineer who worked mostly on F15s, but I still have enough expertise to call bullshit. You have it completely backwards. The F-111 was a maintence mess and it became obselete reasonably quickly given the changing dynamic.. by the time they finally got their acts together, it was on its way out the door... but the F18? Are you crazy? It's one of the very few examples of major acquisition programs that went off relatively cleanly. The first 18Es delivered met all the specs, on schedule, and on budget. It has a reputation, in the navy, as being the most dependable plane they have. I've heard it quoted that the Hornet has 3x the mean-time-to-failure of any other aircraft they have. The plane was designed to replace the 14 Tomcat and has, as far as I know, exceeded all expectations. It's better, stronger, cheaper to operate, and is less failure prone.

    I don't know who your "brother in law" is, but all planes have problems. All planes need to be fixed. They are not simple. They get old, and things go bad. It happens. Considering the F18 anything but a resounding success, however, is incredibly ill-informed.

    I can't even see a tactical purpose for the JSF in this sun charred, massively open country.

    You can't? How about the fact that the F18E is one the best anti-ship attack aircraft in the world? Do I need to explain to you the tactical advantage of Australia having that capability? How about the fact that it's far superior air-to-air compared with any of the cold-war era relic airplanes that every rogue nation on that side of the globe has? Even China.

  13. Not really... by Space+cowboy · · Score: 3, Informative

    From the article you link to:

    As France had recently sold Super Entendard aircraft and Exocet missiles to Argentina, when war broke out there was still a French team in Argentina helping to fit out the Exocets and aircraft for Argintinean use. The French team continued to assist the Argentines throughout the war, in spite of the NATO embargo and official French government policy. [2] ... and Argentina did (after all) use Exocets to sink British ships. I don't necessarily blame them - we were at war with them, and killing them just as happily! But it caused a *lot* of anti-French feeling in the UK at the time.

    Simon

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
    1. Re:Not really... by Noryungi · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you have to criticize the French, you should at least pick a different subject. Here is the beginning of the Wikipedia article -- and I can confirm most of it, since the cooperation described was well known in France at the time:

      French president François Mitterrand gave full support to the UK in the Falklands war. As a large part of Argentina's military equipment was French-made, French support was crucial. France provided aircraft, identical to the ones it supplied to Argentina, for British pilots to train against. France provided intelligence to help sabotage the Exocet missiles it sold to Argentina. In her memoirs Margaret Thatcher says of Mitterrand that "I never forgot the debt we owed him for his personal support...throughout the Falklands crisis". Sir John Nott, who was Secretary of State for Defence during the conflict later acknowledged: "In so many ways Mitterrand and the French were our greatest allies".

      Sad to see traditional knee-jerk anti-french feelings are alive and well on /.

      --
      The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
  14. Re:Funny you mention the F-18 by lbrandy · · Score: 2, Informative

    The U.S. is ditching all their F-15s and replacing them with F-18 SuperHornet

    This is infact completely false. F-15Cs are being replaced by F-22s. At least that's the plan, but no one inside the airforce is convinced that's going to happen in the foreseeable future. The F-15Es (Strike Eagles) have not been scheduled to be replaced, at all.

    The F-18 is a medium level fighter that's meant to be cheap and easy to maintain. It's accomplishes a unique mission, but it can't really touch the 15s and 16s as far as lethality is concerned.

  15. Pretty common practice by kbielefe · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is a pretty common practice. At my job we are required to frequently go through quite a rigorous process to make sure nothing sensitive to U.S. national security makes it into exported source code. Actually delivering compilable source costs a lot extra, is specified in a contract, and comes with training and a compile/test environment.

    --
    This space intentionally left blank.
  16. Re:Folks, the Cold War is over by digitalchinky · · Score: 4, Informative

    I wouldn't be so quick to say the russians are not producing good product, one example is the slotback radar in the Mig 29 - it is easily as good as anything built in recent times by any other country. (I'm an ex ELINT weenie so I can speak with some knowledge on the subject)

    The Russians are as good as anyone else. This whole stealth thing is rendered fairly useless by using multiple ground receivers in ones radar system anyway.

  17. Re:Folks, the Cold War is over by 10Ghz · · Score: 5, Informative
    The real selling point to countries like Australia is that they get more advanced versions of the software, electronics, and sensors -- the parts responsible for lethality and survivability to a very large extent -- which are one of the real strengths of US military R&D.


    When Finland bought F/A-18's from USA they were the top-of-the-line planes back then (and they are very, very good even today). Now, fighter-aircraft have a system which transmits data between the plane and the ground and integrates the plane in to the greater whole, and the Hornet is no exception. One of the first things we did was to rip the US-designed system out, and replaced it with a Finnish design, for the sole reason that the US system was just plain inferior.

    The US has no competitor at the very high-end of the quality/effectiveness market

    Europe and their Eurofighter Typhoon? Like it or not, that is a VERY capable aircraft. F-22 might be a bit better, but F-22 also costs a lot more. And according to the only pilot that has actually flown both, they are neck and neck. He does say that F-22 has supercruise, but The Typhoon has it as well.
    --
    Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
  18. Re:Is that for real? by eericson · · Score: 4, Informative

    Defenseindustrydaily.com had a pretty good article on the situation with the UK involvement on the JSF B variant and how it ties into their carrier project. The real driving force behind the Rafael deal is the French military. The short version is that since Dassault hasn't been able to find any export customers for the Rafael, the incremental cost has been driven up. As such, they want to find another customer in order to keep the production lines open longer. (Plus it means additional commonality between their carriers)

    I don't see the RAAF or Royal Navy choosing the Rafael, it's half a generation behind the JSF and it also means having to add catapult and arrestor gear to their next gen flatop.

    --
    The evil monkey commands you to dance.
  19. Re:Folks, the Cold War is over by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not so neck and neck.

    Here is the quote by the only pilot who has flown both.
    In March 2005, United States Air Force Chief of Staff General John P. Jumper, then the only person to have flown both the Typhoon and the Raptor, talked to Air Force Print News about these two aircraft. He said that "the Eurofighter is both agile and sophisticated, but is still difficult to compare to the F/A-22 Raptor. They are different kinds of airplanes to start with; it's like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance".

      Gen. John P. Jumper, U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff, flew the Raptor faster than Mach 1.7 without afterburners on January 13, 2005. The absence of variable intake ramps may make speeds greater than Mach 2.0 unreachable, but there is no evidence to prove this. Such ramps would be used to prevent engine "flame-out", which is caused when too much air extinguishes the engine's "pilot light", but the intake itself may be designed to prevent such flame-outs. Former Lockheed Raptor chief test pilot Paul Metz says the Raptor has a fixed inlet. Paul Metz has also stated that the F-22 has a top speed greater than 1600 mph (Mach 2.42) and its climb rate is faster than the F-15 Eagle. This is due to the fact that the F-22 is one of the few western aircraft with a thrust to weight ratio significantly greater than 1:1. The true top speed of the F-22 is largely unknown, as engine power is only one factor. The ability of the airframe to withstand the stress and heat from friction is a key factor, especially in an aircraft using as many polymers as the F-22. However, while some aircraft are faster on paper, the internal carriage of its standard combat load allows the aircraft to reach comparatively higher performance with a heavy load than other modern aircraft due to its lack of drag from external stores.

    Not "neck and neck" but different aircraft for different roles.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_2000s_f ighter_aircraft#DERA_study
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-22
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon

    In March 2003, during a combat training flight, 1 F-22A went against 5 F-15C Eagles. During the exercise, the F-22A shot down all F-15's without being damaged

    In addition, the F-22 has a superior radar to the Typhoon in the Raytheon and Northrop Grumman AN/APG-77 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar

    Typhoon's powerplants - 2× Eurojet EJ200 afterburning turbofans, 60 kN dry, 90 kN with afterburner (13,500 lbf / 20,200 lbf) each
    Raptor's powerplants - 2× Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 turbofans, >35,000 lb (160 kN) each

    Raptor's warload - It is estimated that internal bays can carry about 20,000 lb (10,000 kg) worth of bombs, and/or missiles. Four external hardpoints can be fitted to carry weapons or fuel tanks, each with a capacity of 5,000 lb (2,000 kg), albeit at the expense of stealth. Maximum gross takeoff weight: 80,000 lb (37,000 kg)

    Typhoon's warload, all external, four BVRAAMs and two IR AAMs. Maximum gross takeoff weight: 21,000 kg (46,300 lb), "austere air-to-ground".

    In early 2006, Lieutenant Colonel Jim Hecker, commander of the 27th Fighter Squadron (FS) at Langley commented to Jane's Defence Weekly (18th jan. 2006) that: "We killed 33 F-15Cs and didn't suffer a single loss," he said. "They didn't see us at all." after an exercise with 8 F-22's in Nevada in Nov. 2005. In that exercise, a group of 4 F-22s assaulted a simulated air-defence network of SA-10 and SA-12s, they opened a hole in the network so that B-2, B-52 and B-1s could come in, then another group of 4 F-22s engaged F-15Cs and defeated them 33 to 0.

  20. Typhoon vs. F-35 vs. F-22 by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 3, Informative

    As for the Russians, they can produce good airframes and decent powerplants, but they lack sophistication in the high-end electronics/software/sensors that pretty much make or break a combat aircraft today.

    What worries most analysts is not so much the capability of Russia to produce an F-35 killer but rather what will happen if China/Russia/India combine to produce a joint stealth fighter project. The resulting machine could conceivably be better than the F-35 and capable of making up it's shortcomings vs. the F-22 by being cheaper to make and easyer to mass manufacture. The idea being that if you can't beat the F-22 technologically use the 'T-34 effect' to swamp forces using the F-22. Now Russia perhaps does not have the economic muscle to mass manufacture a stealth design in a big way but India and especially China do.

    The only comparable jet to the F-35 is the Eurofighter platform, though the capability mix is different.

    Purely in terms of electronics the Eurofighter is probably better than the F-35. The Trance 3 aircraft with all the frills including thrust-vectoring will be even better than the current Typhoons which lack a large portion of the Eurofighters potential feature set. Another thing is that he Eurofighter can supercruise which the F-35 AFAIK can't. The F-35 does have stealth and it is frequently clamied the Typhoon has none, which, according to one US source is due to an European ability to understand but inablitiy to implement Stealth technology. The first part is a half truth, the Typhoon has low observability features, which will probably lower its radar signature considerably but of course never quite as low as those of the F-22 especially. Also keep in mind that the F-35's stealth is compromized by an inability to carry weapons internally unlike the F-22. As for the European inabilty to produce Stealth designs, I find that claim to be funny. I would evaluate the Typhoon as being better the F-35 but not as good as the F-22.

    --
    Only to idiots, are orders laws.
    -- Henning von Tresckow
  21. Re:Similarly, the TSR-2 by Alioth · · Score: 2, Informative

    The TSR.2 prototypes were not all destroyed - two of them are on public display (I've seen the one at Cosford, I think there's one at the IWM in Duxford too).

  22. Re:Once Bitten. by original_nickname · · Score: 2, Informative

    Nope, this may be partly the case, but it's actually because we didn't bother to train the pilots....

    And apparently the ones the we did train now want to leave!

  23. Re:Folks, the Cold War is over by 10Ghz · · Score: 4, Informative
    Not so neck and neck.


    Well, yes:

    "One advantage of having flown the Eurofighter, General Jumper said, is that it allows him to get first-hand knowledge of technology U.S. allies use and to see how America's handiwork stacks up. He said he believes the two aircraft are running neck-and-neck, but America must always be vigilant to ensure it stays on the cutting edge of aviation technology."

    So he clearly disputes your claim of "they are not neck and neck". What you are doing is that you are looking at some paper-specs. He has actually flown both. Have you flown either of them? No? Then what makes you the expert on this field?

    Here is the quote by the only pilot who has flown both.


    I don't see any indication of "F-22 is better than Typhoon" in that quite. I see him saying that they are two different planes with different design-goals, so comparing them is difficult.

    In March 2003, during a combat training flight, 1 F-22A went against 5 F-15C Eagles. During the exercise, the F-22A shot down all F-15's without being damaged


    Two F-15's tried to ambush Typhoon during joint exercises. The Typhoon outmanouvered them both and shot them down. Of course, it wasn't 5:1 engagement, but it was an engagement where the F-15's started from behind the Typhoon, and the Typhoon-pilot didn't even know that they were planning to ambush him.

    In addition, the F-22 has a superior radar to the Typhoon in the Raytheon and Northrop Grumman AN/APG-77 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar


    Of course you can find individual mareas where F-22 is better than the Typhoon, and vice versa. Typhoon has superior man-machine interface and the AA-missile being developed for it is clearly superior (faster, longer range, more agile) to the AMRAAM that is used in the F-22.

    What is this, a pissing-match? I quoted a pilot that has flown both. And he said that they are "neck and neck" (of course there are differences, since they have different design-goals). Then some Random slashdotter pulls some specs and claims "no, he's wrong. Just look at the specs!". While F-22 is usually placed before the Typhoon in AA-effectiveness, it should also be noted that F-22 costs over twice as much as the Typhoon does (F-22: $152M, Typhoon: $74M)
    --
    Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
  24. Re:Is that for real? by Hrshgn · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's Rafale, not Rafael.

  25. Re:Mohammed and the Han by skribe · · Score: 2, Informative
    After the June 4 riot was suppressed, we have been thinking about how to prevent China from peaceful evolution and how to maintain the Communist Party's leadership. We thought it over and over but did not come up with any good ideas. If we do not have good ideas, China will inevitably change peacefully, and we will all become criminals in history. After some deep pondering, we finally come to this conclusion: Only by turning our developed national strength into the force of a fist striking outward--only by leading people to go out --can we win forever the Chinese people's support and love for the Communist Party.

    From the perspective of history, the reason that China is faced with the issue of living space is because Western countries have developed ahead of Eastern countries. Western countries established colonies all around the world, therefore giving themselves an advantage on the issue of living space. To solve this problem, we must lead the Chinese people outside of China, so that they could develop outside of China.

    Would the United States allow us to go out to gain new living space? First, if the United States is firm in blocking us, it is hard for us to do anything significant to Taiwan and some other countries! Second, even if we could snatch some land from Taiwan, Vietnam, India, or even Japan, how much more living space can we get? Very trivial! Only countries like the United States, Canada and Australia have the vast land to serve our need for mass colonization.

    - Selected quotes from a speech made by Chi Haotian, Minster of Defense and vice-chairman of China's Central Military Commission. As reported in the Epoch Times.

    If true it is at least disturbing.

    --
    Blog
  26. Re:Folks, the Cold War is over by xtracto · · Score: 3, Informative

    No, they are part of North America.
    The United States of America has America in it's name. Canada doesn't, Mexico doesn't, Brazil doesn't, Argentina doesn't. TTBOMK, no other country has "America" in it.
    Mexico has a definite claim to be aggrivated when "we" simply call ourselves the "United States". But, guess what?
    We got there first. "We" were the United States for 34 years before Mexico was. So, in the spirit of "first come, first served": stuff it, Mexico. As a gesture of friendship, though: how about we rename That State which bears a part of your name?


    MMmm that depends where you live I guess.
    I am from Mexico and America is and always have been a continent, no, we do not feel aggrivated when you call youserlves the "United States", as it just describes a property of your country.

    Sadly, I have to tell you that the problem with your country is that it does not have a name, see, the name United States of America comes from as you said being one of the first countries formed by "uniting states" and it was made in America (the continent).

    The North Amercia and South America split was just made up by the USA, in a kind of elitist way but, again North and South are just properties (in the north emisphere and south emisphere.

    So you are right, America is a name, it is a name of the continent, that is why (living in the UK) I usually refer to people from the USA as darn... as that as "people from the usa", usually I would call them "gringos" but a lot of people do not understand.

    Of course it all ends in how your government wants you to know, as, you will swear that North America and South America are two different continents because you saw it in your basic school but then again who do you thing is in control of that?.

    --
    Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
  27. Re:Folks, the Cold War is over by candiman · · Score: 2, Informative

    Australia maintains its current fleet of F-111s because they are the only things around with the legs to fly from Aus, bomb Jakarta and return without refueling.

    We buy American hardware because they are our number one military ally and it is all about standardised hardware in the field. If our allies are flying/driving/firing apples we don't want to be flying/driving/firing oranges.

  28. Re:Is that for real? by Mutatis+Mutandis · · Score: 4, Informative

    Weapons are by no means that standardized. Britain, France, Germany and some other NATO countries still develop their own missiles, and also various electronic and intelligence-gathering equipment, which is equally important.

    The USA doesn't really like NATO weapons programs unless it can supply the weapons itself; its attitude is fundamentally protectionist and contains a lot of "NIH" syndrome. It has, for example, pulled out of the development of the ASRAAM missile and substituted its own AIM-9X.

    For the UK, not having the source code might not only mean that it cannot integrate its own weapons, but also that it cannot sell its products to other JSF users. For example, ASRAAM has been sold to Australia for use on the F-18E. If JSF is a closed system, the USA could lock out any such competition and force buyers to purchase everything from US suppliers.

    If that sounds paranoid... US officials have occasionally admitted that one of the goals of the JSF programme, at least it multinational aspect, is to drive other suppliers of combat aircraft out of business and ensure for the USA a monopoly on the supply of advanced defence equipment.

    Of course one of the other reasons is to make foreigners pay some of the bills for US weapons development. The system is charming: participating nations have to pay a large fee upfront for allowing their industry to compete for JSF contracts. Then they are sold downrated equipment that is not as capable as the F-35 as operated by the USAF, USN and USMC (if it ever gets that far). One of the reasons the UK wants the source code, I assume, is that it wants to ensure that its aircraft will not be downgraded too much. (Nobody would take Washington's word for it... not any more.)

    For the UK, JSF will be a bad deal. If the two planned RN large carriers are indeed completed, there is no real reason left to buy the F-35, and the British government may indeed be looking for a way to cancel its commitment to JSF.

  29. Re:Not really by InsaneGeek · · Score: 2, Informative

    Well you go on believing that FUD: We've already made it back to the 90's, I don't think the 90's rate is sustainable at all so I'm expecting a downturn over the next couple of years because we are doing so good it can't be sustained. As for your statement about unemployment figures the change only was for federal employee's benefits affecting only an extremely small fraction of the number. The random sampling method continues today, let me let snopes.com school you on your FUD: http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/unemploy.htm On the economy, let me just copy and paste what I did on another forum back in November (which is why some of the numbers are a little older than a couple of months but still less than a year, and we've gotten even better since then)

    ftp://ftp.iza.org/charts/PDF56_e.pdf
    For the past 3-4 years the US has had the highest GDP growth of: germany, france, italy, japan, canada, UK & EU in general

    http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/35/47/35326565.pdf
    From OECD standardized unemployment rates, July of 05 we have a level of 5.0, less than Germany (9.3), less than France (9.7), less than Italy (7.8), less than Canada (6.8), only UK (4.7) and Japan (4.4) have a lower one.

    http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_rate/ CurrentInflation.asp
    For about a year we've been hovering at around 3% or so (up and down) inflation, which is the same it was before 9/11. You'll note around 9/11 Greenspan dumped a whole lot of cash into the economy & China picked up it's output significantly decreasing inflation to some of the lowest rates it's ever been (~1 percent). Greenspan only lately has been saying that our economy has been doing so *good* that our growth rate is starting to encourage those inflationary items, so he's started gradually raising the interest rate to start removing dollars out of the economy to slow it's growth rate down. Classic example of a Phillips curve. I think greenspan should probably start getting more aggressive on it as our economy has been going so *good* that we need to stop it from turning into a beast like it did in the 2000 where we get another big bubble. Right now it ain't sky high, it's nowhere near sky high, under 1-2% means our employment level isn't doing well and pressuring it down, over 5% is high, over 10% is sky high (look to the 70's).

    So we have a higher GDP growth rate (rate our economy is expanding/contracting) and we have one of the lowest unemployment rates. Our unemployment rate is at a level that is lower than almost every other country in the world. Our inflation rate is increasing but it's still very reasonable, but the government does need to start pulling money out of the economy because we are doing so good we are starting overheat it. The govenment needs to start becoming more miserly with our money: spend when the goings bad and save when the things go good to reduce the major peaks and valleys. Unlike you, from all the things I see as economic indicators that I think our economy's been doing *so* good that we should be expecting a dip here in the next few years as part of the general up/down cycle, and we should start pulling money out of the economy.

  30. Re:Once Bitten. by original_nickname · · Score: 2, Informative

    Apparently the pay is less than £60k a year, too, so the pilots are leaving!

    link

  31. Re:Folks, the Cold War is over by skribe · · Score: 2, Informative
    Singapore has a defence budget that makes our GDP look like pocket change.

    Oz Military expenditures - dollar figure: $16.65 billion (2004)
    Sing Military expenditures - dollar figure: $4.47 billion (FY01 est.)

    -- CIA Factbook

    Must be the new math.

    --
    Blog
  32. Re:Is that for real? by MechaStreisand · · Score: 2, Informative

    HIGH radar signature, sir. It wasn't designed with any LO requirements in mind, seeing as it was designed back in the 80's. Other than that, yes, it is a great aircraft, if it is equipped with decent avionics. It's worth pointing out, though, that the EF Typhoon is also a superior fighter, as it is LO and simply a much more advanced design.

    --
    Disclaimer: IANAL. This post is, however, legal advice, and creates an attorney-client relationship.
  33. Re:Folks, the Cold War is over by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
    I wouldn't be so quick to say the russians are not producing good product, one example is the slotback radar in the Mig 29 - it is easily as good as anything built in recent times by any other country. (I'm an ex ELINT weenie so I can speak with some knowledge on the subject)


    I'm ex-ELINT as well, and you're full of shit. Have you designed or tested a system up close and personal (and I'm talking R&D, NOT in a military only training environment)? Being ELINT means jack except when compared with Joe Blow off the street.

    In addition, the Russians come up with "wunderweapons" about every third week. They're generally either vapor or not very effective (see: GPS jammers). By the time the so-called "Raptor Killer" makes it to production the F-22 will be in its second or third revision. Getting back OT about the Mig 29: I'm sure it was equivalent to an early block F-15, maybe even better. And wasn't the '29 the aircraft with the radar suspiciously "similiar" to the F-18? So much so that it appears to have been stolen?

    Oddly at this juncture it's the low-tech Russian stuff the US has to worry about: RPGs, AK-47s, and Kornet anti-tank missiles all being used in Iraq.
  34. Re:Not really by Politburo · · Score: 2, Informative

    The last time the unemployment methodology (as measured by the Current Population Survey) was significantly changed was 1994. The survey was instituted in 1940. The 1994 redesign only tweaked some definitions of unemployed vs. out-of-workforce.

    The Bureau of Labor Statistics is made up mainly of career statisticians and economists. While the Administrator is appointed by the President, the Bureau is rigidly non-partisan and its methodologies are public and open to criticism and change.

  35. Re:Is that for real? by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Apparently not, but there are plans for optional thrust vectoring, which might give the Eurofighters STOL support.

    --
    USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  36. Re:Is that for real? by Mutatis+Mutandis · · Score: 2, Informative

    Yes, the Soviets routinely did this as well. Strategy aside, they were always paranoid about espionage and unwilling to export their latest equipment for fear that it would fall in the wrong hands. Besides, they would also sell on a large scale to third world nations, who would find it difficult to maintain the most advanced equipment.

    Selling high-tech defence equipment has always been as much about creating a dependency relation as about making money. (This much fighter jets have in common with cheap inkjet printers.) When you sell someone an expensive jet fighter, that country becomes dependent on you for training, spare parts, maintenance, and upgrades. Not just until the next version of Windows comes out, but for the lifetime of the aircraft, which is now as much as 30 to 40 years. A $25 million jet fighter without appropriate support is almost scrap metal.

    Of course it is possible to go without support for some time. When Sadat kicked his Russian advisors out of Egypt, the Egyptians briefly considered fitting their MiG-21s with Rolls-Royce engines (would have been nice) before they bought Western equipment. More recently, Iran has been able to maintain US jet fighters in an acceptably operational condition without (officially admitted!) US support, but it clearly has not been easy and no doubt cost a frightening amount of money.