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Refurbishing PCs For Charity?
Used PC Guy asks: "I'm trying to run a program to recycle PCs for charity to give to underprivileged kids. Trouble is, these kids have never seen a PC. What should I teach the kids if they're about 14-21? Should I teach Windows, Linux or both? What hardware should I be requesting, and what's the best way to test the influx of hardware that's coming in quickly, efficiently and reliably to make sure won't need servicing within another 6 months?"
Depending on the availability of software, I'd stick with Windows. As much as we'd like to think Linux is going to get big as a desktop OS , it isn't definate, and will probably be a long way down the road, especially in the US. Although if for some reason you don't have the copies of windows that came with these PCs (which is likely the case), and windows-like Linux distro would probably be best. At least that's my 2 cents (as a big Linux/UNIX user).
In undeveloped countries, the consumer controls the market. In capitalist America, the market controls you.
If any donated Pentium 3 machines come in with Win 98 and at least 6 gigabytes of RAM, how about dual booting them with Windows 98 using 2 gigs and Unbuntu on the remainder. And if they're older machines, keep in mind Ubuntu Lite (haven't tried the lite version yet myself but plan to in the next few days).
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallingUbuntuLite
http://www.ubuntulite.org/
Use some sort of software that erases everything every time the computer reboots - like deepfreeze. Then instruct the users to save everything to a seperate partition. That way, you won't have to do as much security support work. If they really haven't used a computer before, they won't know what they're missing. This can increase the number of computers you can support a lot.
Simon's Rock College
The operating system doesn't matter that much. Teach them how to use the internet in a responsible way, avoinding obviously dangerous websites, how to write e-mails in a matter people will appreciate, etc.
Learn them how to use the mostly used things: word processor (a typing course would help as well), spreadsheet, even the stupid slideshow creation :) Any office suite will do, it's not that much of a difference when they got the main points.
Learn them how to install software! How to deal with all the popups you get when installing this, it really is something you should get a hang of, and you'll need it often later on.
Learn them to use html, make a website, get to understand the stuff that's behind it.
And the coolest would be: learn them to program a bit! I played with LOGO when I was a kid, it really helped me later on.
molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
It's easier when you're showing strength in numbers, you know. One man outfits just don't have the same credibility.
I guess if these people never used a PC before, they shouldn't have a bug learning curve to adapt to Linux since they don't have a lot of pre-concived ideas of how things should work.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to get them working with Linux for much better performance on old hardware with a user-friendly distro like Ubuntu or Linspire. You would also be helping to get Linux on to the mainstream public, which I believe the $100 Laptop program from MIT will do.
Yes, this was annoying with Windows... but it scares me to think about how often I would have been called if I would have given them a Linux machine.
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I spent about 2 years trying to teach computer skills to kids and adults in a developing nation, and I learned a few things about this kind of work.
If licensing is available (or doesn't concern you), you may as well start by teaching Windows, at least for basic mouse and keyboarding skills. You'll probably have inconsistant hardware in your systems, but as much as I hate to admit it, Windows makes it easier to present a consistant interface.
Once the kids learn a little about computer basics, you can start teaching them some more advanced skills. This is where you can turn your problems on their side... You'll probably quickly accumulate piles of unusable components, but these can be valuable teaching materials, since you can use them to show the kids what's inside the computer. As they learn more, you can get the kids to help you test, assemble, and repair more systems.
If you can teach the kids to do your work (requesting donations, testing, building, repairing, and teaching), then your project will be successful and sustainable.
I wasn't able to teach all the students how to build computers (we didn't have enough 'junk' components to try that), but I did get them to go from no computer experience to making simple webpages (using only notepad) and useful spreadsheets.
A few more tips:
1) Observe what the kids do and adjust what you teach accordingly, especially to avoid time sinks (Word, with all its clipart, wordart, and fonts proved to be a big waste of time).
2) Try to find innovative ways to teach file management. This is not intuitively obvious to most kids, but it is important, and can get to be a problem when they start producing hundreds of documents
3) Internet / WWW are probably more trouble than they're worth.
4) Ban floppy disks
5) If you don't have a LAN, a USB Flash drive and some simple scripts can be good for quickly copying materials to each machine.
...if you want to help economically disadvantaged people--be they in Appalachia, Detroit, central Africa, or the West Bank--is to give them the tools they need to integrate into wider society.
With that in mind, and assuming you're targeting first two of the above: I'd give them Windows. Make sure they know how to word process in Wordpad, and, crucially, how to use email and IM. The rest will come on its own. Kids are naturally curious, and don't usually need much encouragement to explore the internet and start creating profiles on MySpace or what have you. Indulge them.
(Incidentally, that's also why a $100 cellphone would be a much better use of resources than MIT's $100 laptop, but I digress.)
These kids have never seen a computer, then it's best to get them familiar with what 90% of the planet uses, regardless of your own viewpoint. That way you're giving them a headstart on the way to getting useable computer knowledge that will enable them to at least get a job using a PC with Windows and Word on it...
Linux and Macs have to be decision that's made on a personal level, because they are in the minority. If one of these kids turns round and says to you "you taught us in Linux, why the hell didn't you teach us to use the most common OS - Windows?", you're screwed. That'll just look like you forcing your views on them, and that never goes down well with anyone, ever.
That might sound harsh, but I guarantee that very few of us are using Linux because it was the first OS we landed on. Most probably used Windows and had to look for something better - look at it from that angle, and use that as a basis. The high fliers will instantly want mroe than you give them.
If you have the money, why spend it on software? Spend the money on good broadband connection and networking the computers. If you have all that, spend it on books that you can keep in the place and possibly loan out so they can read some thing on their own.
My suggestion would be to use Ubuntu. And when you show them software, show them cross-platform solutions. Firefox/Opera, Thunderbird or some webmail, Gaim, Gimp, OpenOffice.org2.
I mean, that's the crux of learning computers. Typing documents and emails. Sending IMs to stay connected. Looking up stuff online for learning, entertainment and procrastination.
My brother has a scanner and he lost the drivers for it. It was a pain to find them online. For me, with Ubuntu, it worked without any setting up. I was surprised. If you're getting hardware that you might not have the driver CD for, Linux really is much better at support (unless you can hunt down the drivers online).
But the main thing is, people are capable of learning if you have faith in them and put in effort and create a good atmosphere. If you dumb everything down too much, then they'll learn less. But if you expect more, they'll surpise you. Don't be afraid to teach them about the hardware a little bit and the network. They might not fully grasp everything, but they'll be a little better off. And you'll be able to spot the smarter ones who'll be more motivated to learn.
In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
These are going to be underpowered PCs, potentially used for years.
This means a few things:
0. Are they powerful enough to run XP / 2K?
If not, then how well do you think 98 will fare over time (when is it EOL'd?)
1. What are the people going to use them for? Web-surfing, e-mail, IM, office, etc.
2. As the parent brought up, owning the software is going to be a requirement. That might turn out to be the most expensive aspect of the project.
3. Is the Original Poster going to be available (via email, in person, etc.) for the next year? If so, and they have the time to do any additional modifications, then Linux isn't that bad of an option. How many people are going to screw up their computers (through whatever means) if Linux xor Windows is installed?
Personally, I give a LiveCD and email scripts (to a webmail account with space) to people after servicing their computers. On top of that I tell them exactly how to execute the main one (that executes the rest). So even in a worse case scenario where they FUBAR their OS, they'll still be able to do the basics. This is something I recommend to the original poster no matter what.
Am I open minded towards open source, or closed minded towards closed source?
Somewhere on MS's site it has a page about if you can receive donated Windows licenses and terms
Yeah, sure, and then they make you jump thru hoops by having the original bill of sale when the SPA comes calling. And they will, bet the farm on it as you are a VERY high profile target.
Put something like Ubuntu-5.10 on them. These people may not be already windows indoctrinated to the point that they can't learn how to run firefox in 5 minutes, and get their email setup and running in 15, most of which is negotiating a connection to the net from their ISP of choice. Make sure iptables, portsentry and tcpwrappers are installed and setup for outgoing requests establishing the path, and trash ANYTHING that comes in un-invited. And setup the update tool to do it every night, or if its not on then, makes sure anacron knows about it by makeing sure its running in the startup.
That combination is pretty bullet proof, I've had 3 attacks get as far as the log before they were turned off absolutely in 3 years on a dsl circuit. And 2 of those came from known addresses as they were from compromised DNS servers at my ISP, verizon. They're windows lovers, obviously.
You may have a few more questions to field early in the game, but in the end you will have made a new generation of computer savvy people who are NOT slaves to the M$ machine in Redmond. And that is of course a very desirable thing at the end of the day, you have shown that the M$ way is NOT the only way, and the linux way is far more secure.
Handle the root access by making them prove enough knowledge to be able to handle it before you give it out. That will save a lot of phone calls right there.
--
Cheers, gene
Really I think you're going to have two problems. The first is simply getting machines with ancient (windows 95/98/ME) operating systems on them. Getting legal modern Windows operating systems is either going to be expensive, or the hardware you have simply won't run it. (Driver issues, low memory, etc). Honestly I'd really avoid going down the route of using any Windows OS before Windows 2000. 95/98/ME are really dinosaurs these days, and no one should be giving away machines with them on it.
So, while other people are telling you to run Windows because it's standard and it's what kids will encounter, I'm going to tell you to run Linux because it's cheap, will support most of the hardware, has drivers built in that will auto-detect, etc. Ultimately you really want to only be supporting one operating system. The best OS for that job is going to be Linux. It's really no fun trying to hunt down what video card each of the 10 different machines you have sitting around.
Honestly for kids 14-21 the OS doesn't really matter for what they should be using the machine for. I assume that's schoolwork, research, etc. You might get some complaints that game X or special software package Y doesn't run on the computer, but that sounds pretty minor. They'll be able to figure out Windows computers once they've used linux, so I don't see many problems of converting if that ever became an issue. Computers are ultimately a tool, and unless you're going to be a tool-maker or tool-supporter, the choice of the tool doesn't really matter. To make an analogy just get them familiar with using hammers, screwdrivers, and saws and don't worry about which brand it is.
The second problem is getting broken hardware. There's a few things that can help you here. I'd first look at memtest86 to test the memory. Let it run for a few hours and see if there's errors. Secondly I'd run some CPU thrashing tests. Many people seem to like Prime95 from mersenne.org, and run the torture test. Other programs like the distributed.net client will also stress the CPU. Finally I'd get familiar with smartctl on linux. This program will access the SMART monitoring that's built into hard drives made in the last 5 or 6 years. From this you can tell if the HD is junk, or soon to be junk.
You're going to get a lot of Junk. And by junk I mean computers with 64 megs of ram and a 233 megahertz processor. It's hard to tell you where the line exists, since I don't know what kids are going to do with these computers. Cannabalize components, but don't be afraid to just throw stuff out, or maybe turn these components into a class where kids get to "build their own computer".
AccountKiller
Has it come to this? I like Linux and use Linux, too. Should I rend my hair shirt, flog myself bloody, roll in mud and parade the streets on my knees to show everyone my shame? "Whatever you do, people, do not do what I do! I am a bad example!"
Guy said it's for kids who aren't familiar with computers at all. In every case I've seen kids absorb Linux like a sponge, learn to equate later exposure to Windows and Macs with it. They just take it as a given and keep learning. Why? Because they haven't had 20 years of brainlock in Windows-Only-World.
My daughter has no trouble at all using Linux at home and Windows at school and at the library. The only way it's affected her as far as the outside world is concerned is that she giggles and points when Windows crashes (because they're not supposed to do that) and she shakes her head in disgust when she sees that her only games are freecell/hearts/solitaire/minesweeper. Oh, wait, lemme second-guess the flame-fighters on this one: I'm abusing my children by showing them Linux, right?
Despite what a lot of other posters have mentioned, I'd have to say that Linux would be the best choice. As a distribution maintainer myself, I get a lot of e-mails from users – and a lot of it isn't just the usual support stuff, a good deal of the mail I get is from ordinary people who decided to switch to Linux (and my distro was the first one).
I may be a bit biased on this, but I'd have to say the only real problem is typically the installation. After that, it's a snap. If the machines have enough horsepower – for my own distro, a Pentium-233 with 96MB can handle KDE, Firefox, and OpenOffice.org rather nicely – I'd say stick on KDE, create a default user account and make it auto-login, assign a strong root password – but tell them what it is! – and maybe set up some shortcuts on the desktop to any apps they may use. Problem solved!
I'd have to say that everyone in my family seems to like my distro too. Even my parents. Which may sound sort of stupid and obvious, but not really – I had to fight tooth and nail to get them to try Linux out! They just did not want to give up Windows, at all! But as soon as they saw it, they were hooked too...
But one quick suggestion – if you have to teach them on Windows, please, do yourself (and them) a favor and DON'T USE INTERNET EXPLORER. I'm obviously no expert on psychology, but I've noticed that most people, once they find something they like, generally don't want to switch off to something better unless it's forced upon them. So if you get them used to using an insecure, non-standard browser such as Explorer, it will likely serve you right when you can't convince them to try Firefox because of the unpatched security vulnerability du jour in IE.
Creative misinterpretation is your friend.
Those kids won't ever use the machine unless there's internet... fact is for most people the PC is nothing but an internet appliance, not that it's bad... lot of info on the internet.
also... you will be surprised to find that most of these kids have probably used a computer at the library or school.. so don't assume they know nothing about them...
Something you might consider doing is donating a few hours a week to go and teach them how to build the PC themselves, with donated parts... give a man fish, you know the rest... and they'll have a lot more fun and a lot more respect for the machines when they've put them together themselves.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
I wonder if there are some licenses or acceptions that would allow a company to donate old windows licenses. They could get a decent tax write-off and do some nice PR. If this works, they probably have old office licenses too.
I'm all for teaching people linux, but it sounds to me like these people need "job skills". Teaching them how to write a letter and a spreadsheet would be beneficial to them. If some are interested and want to go further, look into putting linux on a few machines. You could teach a little programming too which for a kid might open some doors. But for the older people, I'm more concerned that they know enough to get an entry level data entry position. Doesn't sound glamorous, but neither is flipping hamburgers.
And on a side note, I think what this guy is doing is very admirable. Lots of people, probably myself included, love to jump on slashdot and show other geeks how geekier they are, but this truly helps people.
Remember that charities and non-profit groups have the same needs as any other business.
Consequently don't waste their time trying to give them ancient or underpowered computers, and don't consider anything but Windows.
Most charities that accept donations of computer equipment are accustomed to saying "no" to well meaning people that try to unload stuff that would be better used as boat anchors.
Ten years ago it made sense for groups to source used PCs, and many groups offered that kind of service. When new PCs cost thousands of dollars you could dramatically lower your costs. These days a new system can be had for under $500, so a used system with lower specs is less attractive.
When you consider the increased likelihood of component failure, and the irritations associated with older hardware's inability to run current software, it often doesn't make sense to accept second hand systems.
I'm not sure where you're finding these kids that have "never seen a PC". I've worked with teenagers in inner cities, and in Appalachia specifically, and PCs are pretty much ubiquitous in the US. Every library and school has PCs, and kids these days are more than comfortable with technology.
Is it possible that you're assuming a condition that doesn't exist? Have you talked to the target group to assess what they can use?
Three Squirrels
Well, tinkering and tweaking may teach you to be a better geek, but for someone who's just trying to do something creative in a non-geek area of expression, being forced to tinker and tweak can be really frustrating. What got my goat was that the original poster pointed to this as a benefit: "Frustration builds character!"
My feeling is that we geeks will always find things to tinker with--some kids with donated PCs will undoubtedly download a Linux distro and start hacking away. Other kids might want to write the next great American novel, or even just read it on the internet. Erecting roadblocks to these aims, even in the name of computer literacy, won't help anyone.
Show them that instead of Firefox, they have IE, or they can download Firefox for Windows. Show them they have Paintbrush instead of Gimp, but they can download Gimp for Windows or buy Photoshop. Show them they have Outlook instead of Thunderbird, but etc... Show them they have Notepad or Word instead of the 50-some editors in Linux. Show them they have freecell-hearts-minesweeper-solitaire instead of the 50-some games on Linux. Be sure to point out that they can no longer switch to alternate virtual desktops, have their pick of ten different window managers, or have all the software they want for it free. Teach them the new keyboard combination "Ctrl-Alt-Del", and remind them that they have to pay attention to virus reports now, because they apply to them.
Of course with my kids, nobody did this with them. They just saw and learned Linux at home, saw and learned Windows at school, and took it to be the natural order of things. Young minds are open; let's not spoil it. They'll be old and mean and dumb just like we grownups soon enough.
Well, I don't know if I would go that far. I think there is some truthfulness in your parody, but what I really wanted to say is that linux may encourage people to learn more about computers not because they will get frustrated, but because there are more tools at their disposal. Windows has great tools for it too, but they're not all sitting on the machine, just waiting to be discovered. If I were a child, had I discovered Windows had a C compiler waiting for me, I would have been jumping for joy. All I had to bring with me to Windows was a BASIC interpreter from an older system (DOS). A fun tool, and great for children, but dead by the time I was learning it.
Granted, not all kids are interested in computers themselves. linux is great for people with "computer interest." However, you talk about it like it's actually a hindrance to other things, which was not what I believe or intended to say. linux has great word processing capability (better than what I had as a kid), and its fair share of friendly paint tools (invoking GIMP here is a bit of a straw man). Really, linux enables you to do a lot of great things that aren't directly related to computing.
What I'd like to stress most about my point is computer systems as a social phenomenon. linux users are quite often natural tinkerers, and the community reflects this. Encouraging children to join a culture like that helps them to learn new things (at least about linux), and also to develop a particular perspective on computer software. They may not fully appreciate the merit or value of Free software or even know what it is, but those who are curious will learn. Most people in the world don't even know what Free software is, and distributing linux helps spread awareness. Even if they end up not liking it, they'll have some experience to back up their opinions with.
I would also like to stress that people who find linux totally frustrating and inconvenient will switch to Windows very rapidly. That's not a problem, so we're not exactly forcing anything upon them. If we didn't show them linux, though, they wouldn't even know what it is. If they end up switching to Windows, they'll now have both linux and Windows in their vocabulary; if we just gave them Windows, they'd only have one.
Also, kids who at least are familiar with linux may grow up to find that they have an edge over many of their peers. Maybe it'll help them get a job, or maybe one day they will have to sit down in front of a *nix terminal and not be totally lost. It could happen! So let's expand their worlds a little.
It's the same way in English too, it's just not common use. American Heritage Dictionary: Learn v. 6. Obsolete. To give information to.
But your daughter also has a parent knowledgable about Linux that can help her out when something new comes along. While these kids could certainly be taught to use Linux, I don't think any such charity wants to get dragged into "Tech Support" when no one ELSE knows how to fix problems that crop up, especially on a scale where potentially hundreds of people might be getting these PCs. On Windows, there may be more problems, but the number of people able to potentially assist in fixing a problem sky-rockets astronomically.
Find it here.
Is it fascism yet?
I know this because I was raised with Windows and came away from it with almost nothing.
I don't think it was the computer's fault you ended up with nothing. There's a lot of ugly internals to the Windows OS, and if you came away with nothing, that's completely because you weren't trying hard enough. People don't learn "much of anything" because they are uninterested. This will happen whether you give them Windows, Linux, MacOS or OS/360: users will learn what they need to in order to do what they want to and that's it. Those who think the computer should do more than is obvious that it can do will take the time to really learn things, and they will take something away from the experience.
That said, I'd agree with the linux route for a different reason. There's so much software for linux that you can just apt-get, emerge, yum, etc. Sure, there's a lot of free software to get most things done on windows, too, but only if you know how to use google already. Esp with Ubuntu and the like: just click the boxes in aptitude, etc and software is downloaded and installed, all in one step. Linspire's Click-n-Run is super cool, too. Sure beats the Search on google, download the file, find the file, run the file, click next on all of the dialog boxes process that's required on windows.
If you preinstall an OS with Web browser, Office Products, some games, etc. you're fine. They're charity computers right? With the money you save on windows licenses you can get even more computers. That's the greater good, IMHO, even if some of the recipients are less than happy with the OS.
At Free Geek, we use Linux. And when people ask me why, I usually end up defending Microsoft.
I know that people pirate and copy Microsoft products all the time. And at many levels this is kind of done with a wink wink nudge nudge by everyone involved, including probably Microsoft themselves.
However, when you are running an organization, and you are producing computers, people can start asking questions. Which means, if you are installing Windows, make sure it is legal! If you are churning out lots of computers with pirated Windows, you will probably get caught. It doesn't matter if it is for charity.
Now, that does mean that you will be paying 200 dollars a license, and 400 dollars for a license of Office. This means that if you wanted to give out, say, ten computers with Windows XP Home Edition and Office Standard Edition, you would be paying 6000 dollars.
At Free Geek, aside from any philosophical ideas, we can't afford to spend 6000-10000 dollars a week on licenses for computers we are giving out.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
The problem with windows on refurb. computers is that you might not be entitled to the license that originally came with it.
There is a company here in Portland called Free Geek http://www.freegeek.org/ that recycles computers and electronic components. The refined their own version of linux to make a quite useable machine. Most of them are donated to charities, and not kids, but my understanding is that the people who receive them have little trouble using them.
There's nothing magic about Windows and Office... a decently configured linux box and open office are just as easy to use and just as effective for someone who doesn't already have a computer and isn't a power-user.
Check out what the local community colleges are emphasizing in their course curriculum and tailor your lessons for them in this way.
Encourage the kids to develop an interest in this stuff. Then, when the time comes, encourage the older teens to apply for IT programs at a local college and earn a degree in that field and make computers a career. So if they see that local college X does courses in web design, and you already taught them web design, they be very willing to make a career out of it. This might be a goal that seems feasible to them and this should prepare them to live a stable life in the future which they haven't experienced before.
Hi
Many have pointed out that you would get a lot of junk computers.
I suggest that you take the fast computers and connect them in a mosix cluster
and then use the slow ones as xterminals.
So, how does that cute, yet not too melancholy story relate to this? You're going to have to make do with what you get/can get. You might not be able to choose something you won't have to service in 6 months. You might not be able to use the newest OS. When it comes down to upgrading the systems you get (mobo/proc and RAM, and don't forget the license for Windows) in order to run XP, and getting more systems to reach more people, you'll have to make that decision. Personally, I would use Linux (pick your favorite distro) on older boxes. If they're really old, have it boot to a console, and use it for more "advanced" kids. There's always someone who'll take to it, and want to learn more. We all had that first computer experience, and I'm willing to bet most weren't on a brand new machine. So, they can work on a console, and consider it a challenge. For the... lets say, less computer savvy, you give them the newer systems with a full GUI.
I can't stress enough that a console Linux box, or even just a smaller window manager (fluxbox, etc) makes an old slow system into something new. I think that's your best bet in terms of getting the most systems, cheapest, but the trade off is having things that aren't as visually appealing.
On the other hand, if you want to teach Windows I'd reccomend getting as old a version as you can, that will maximize the computers power. If it's only got 256 MB RAMI guess what this long, late-night ramble is getting to is this. There's no hard and fast. You can request whatever you want, but you'll end up having to make do with what you get. And to that end, it'll be up to you whether you can afford to upgrade another system in hopes of getting XP (remember, pay for the license) on there, or use a Linux version that is appropriate. If these kids haven't used a computer before, no matter what you teach them, they'll learn, so don't be biased against Linux, simply because of look. And in the end, the learning is up to them. You might talk with the student, find out the interests, and from that make the call of which system to give, with which OS (if you have the luxary of having 5-10 different machines in at one time).
Want to find other gamers to play board and role playing game
But really, all of what they're doing now is prep for real-world computer usage--they're not doing anything earthshaking now, but they're gaining computer skills, and as much as we may or may not like it, they'll be best served in the world (especially since they haven't yet been exposed to much tech and it's thus likely will not pursue IT) by Windows skills, not Linux ones.
And so the Monopoly perpetuates and another generation grows up in ignorance.
Give them a proper OS like Linux and let them learn how a real computer works. Open their minds. Then, they will have a superior education and will be able to adapt down to Windows in the future if the need arises.
A Free OS is important because it contains no mysteries. Windows is all about hiding everything from the user and keeping him ignorant such that he is helpless and dependent on the mercy of Bill to cast the magic spells to enable new features and to fix bugs and security holes as and when His Majesty decrees.
Stick Men