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Consumer Problems with Blu-ray and HD-DVD

bart_scriv writes "Business Week looks at the upcoming Blu-ray and HD-DVD product launches and predicts problems and confusion for consumers. In addition to anticipated difficulties in distinguishing between the two formats, some studios will be using copy protection that will intentionally down grade the picture. When combined with Sony's plans to upconvert based on hardware configuration and the fact that most HD TVs aren't capable of displaying either format at full resolution, early adopters may be getting a lot less than they bargained for. As the article suggests, it may be that 'the best bet for either format to gain acceptance now lies with next-generation game consoles.'"

18 of 403 comments (clear)

  1. The key to acceptance: by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Which DRM is easier to crack?

    Simple as that.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:The key to acceptance: by Keeper · · Score: 5, Informative

      The content protection scheme used for both HD-DVD and BluRay is the same (ie: neither is easier to crack than the other).

    2. Re:The key to acceptance: by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The content protection scheme used for both HD-DVD and BluRay is the same (ie: neither is easier to crack than the other).

      However, implementations will differ from manufacturer to manufacturer and maybe even from model to model of player. So we may find that a certain player has an exploitable weakness that others do not.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    3. Re:The key to acceptance: by minus_273 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      i dont think anyone outside of the geek communit cares about DRM. Most people dont mind. Most people dont even encounter the DVD DRM and dont even know about it.

      --
      The war with islam is a war on the beast
      The war on terror is a war for peace
    4. Re:The key to acceptance: by DingerX · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's the way DRM is supposed to be. HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DRM are going to make people care. The current path for HD player acceptance runs through the folks at the upper-end of the market who watch really big Bruckheimer explosions on their monster televisions.

      The HD players coming out want to repeat the DVD player success story: the fastest adaptation of a new media technology ever. I mean, in the space of a few years, DVD video achieved something like 80 percent market penetration. Now here comes HD-DVD; only problem is HD televisions don't have that high market penetration numbers. But at the very least, someone who spent $3000 on a television will probably want to spent $500 on a player to watch something other than sports and CSI in hi-def.

      Yet enter DRM: Sony and pals are so scared of nerds ripping off their signal and trading it peer-to-peer they're going to screw those who spent $3000 on TVs and who can afford and do purchase large amounts of DVDs.

      So they're so afraid of the nerds in the basement and their 19" LCD screens, that they'll stop taking the money from those fat cats in their Bucky Balls wanting to watch Brucky Bombs go off.

      Geeks don't particularly care about DRM ruining their access to stuff: it's a challenge that historically has been met every time. What bothers them more is the notion that DRM ruins cool technology by making it less attractive in the marketplace.

    5. Re:The key to acceptance: by Tim+C · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yet enter DRM: Sony and pals are so scared of nerds ripping off their signal and trading it peer-to-peer they're going to screw those who spent $3000 on TVs and who can afford and do purchase large amounts of DVDs.

      That's the funniest part actually - they're worried about a bunch of nerds ripping off high definition content and then either downsampling the shit out of it, or trying to p2p/ftp/irc around 40GB files. The former isn't worth it (might as well do the DVD, it'll be quicker), the latter really isn't practical even now. The only really practical way to shift that much data currently is on disc (or tape), which seriously limits distribution.

    6. Re:The key to acceptance: by cgenman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So they're so afraid of the nerds in the basement and their 19" LCD screens, that they'll stop taking the money from those fat cats in their Bucky Balls wanting to watch Brucky Bombs go off.

      Ironically those nerds with their LCD screens can't give the MPAA their money if they wanted too: HD-DVD won't play back on any of the existing computer monitors at above DVD resolution.

      I watch all videos on my computer monitor (don't have a TV), and was excited by the prospect of getting some real high-quality video for these high quality monitors. Yet I could blow a few hundred bucks for an HD-DVD / Blu-Ray player, but only get video output equivalent to that of a 20$ DVD drive. I might as well keep pirating, because there is no reason to fork over the money for a new standard that I can't support. What is the incentive for upgrading?

      Don't forget the sampling problem of many HDTV sets... if you try to play a low-rez movie at high rez, you will incurr the wrath of the "upsampler," which has the nasty habit of getting video and audio out-of-sync on many displays. So now the problem may be that your 8,000 dollar plasma-screen TV shipped before the MPAA's chosen video interface standard, but all you will know is that people's voices are coming out a bit before they open their mouths and the picture seems blurrier than when using your Xbox.

      Bad MPAA. No doughnut.

  2. Surprising? by Firehed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Could this be any less surprising? I've been following it closely and I have a hard time keeping everything straight. As I work at a video store, I can safely say that average consumers are nothing less than completely screwed.

    --
    How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
  3. No more HDDVD Blu Ray Stories Please by abscissa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Neither of these formats will be accepted as easily as, historically, other formats have.

    1. Cassetes --> CDs: CDs are thinner and higher quality that does not degrade. Even still, it took *almost* 10 years before cassetes were completely and fully replaced. Even to this day, unless you count, say, iTunes, CDs reign supreme and music on DVD is still a joke.

    2. ?? --> Beta/VHS: No fromat existed for viewing movies at home... except maybe an 8mm projector!! But I can't remember video stores that had 8mm rentals... is it just me?

    3. VHS --> DVD: DVD is smaller, thinner, and holds more at a better quality. Plus, like every previous post has pointed out, many people have invested in buying DVDs and, like me, see no reason to "upgrade" the quality of their movies... for... $30+??

    1. Re:No more HDDVD Blu Ray Stories Please by hudsonhawk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You forgot about Videodisc. It was probably the only home format with any kind of penetration before VHS / Beta. And it sucked. Badly.

      I don't think this analogy fits with those examples anyway. This is more akin to the following:

      Stereo LP -> Quadrophonic LP
      VHS -> Laserdisc
      Cassette -> DCC
      CD -> SACD / DVD-Audio

      In other words, I think this is a specialized path, which only appeals to the high end consumer and won't get any broad market penetration. Even if Blu-Ray "wins" by piggy-backing on the PS3's market penetration, I don't think it will ever get much in terms of consumer acceptance.

      DVD is here for at least a few more years.

    2. Re:No more HDDVD Blu Ray Stories Please by hackstraw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Stereo LP -> Quadrophonic LP
      VHS -> Laserdisc
      Cassette -> DCC
      CD -> SACD / DVD-Audio


      And the grandparent mentioned Beta, and I will add minidisc and DAT.

      Lets take a look at the history here:

      Beta -> killed, basically because of Sony
      minidisc -> killed, basically because of Sony
      SACD -> killed, basically because of Sony

      DAT -> killed, basically because of the recording industry and SCMS

      DCC -> not sure why that was killed. AFAIK, it did not have SCMS. I believe it was not that good of a format. Less than CD quality if I remember correctly

      DVD-Audio -> don't know what the problem here is. I would love to get DVD-A in my car. CD+ quality with hours of content? I would love that.

      Laserdisc -> killed because the discs were too big and scary looking, but good quality for the time.

      Quadrophonic probably never took off because electronics were already expensive back then, so it was probably hard to overcome that hurdle.

  4. Translation: by cryptochrome · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Mass-Media-Powers-That-Be have succeeded in royally fucking themselves by taking a perfectly simple concept (watch videos at higher resolution) and turned it into a crippled, convoluted mess.

    Ball's in your court, online video distributors (namely Apple).

    --

    ---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?

    1. Re:Translation: by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There's nothing in the DVD spec that limits you to 480 lines.

      The NTSC DVD Video spec is indeed limited to 480 lines. (PAL DVD is higher, of course.) You can put whatever you want on a data DVD, but if there are few or no players for it, people won't care.

      So someone should just take MPEG-4, spec-out some new resolutions, and call it DVD-Ultra or something cool sounding.

      It was called DivX HD, but very few players and no movies support it. It was also called WMV-HD, with a few movies and no players. AFAIK, Nero Digital HD has no movies and no players. There were several factors at work here IMO:
      It costs so much to establish a new media standard that you can only do it every 10 years or so. Since each standard needs to last for a decade, it needs to be a big improvement over the previous, not a small improvement.
      Putting HD MPEG-4 (or WMV or whatever) on a regular DVD is so easy that N different companies tried to do it in incompatible ways, and the format war killed all the formats before they even got started.

  5. Technies needed for adoption but not wanted by Keeper · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In order for a new format to be adopted, people need to buy it. Early adopters are typically technically minded people, and are generally "informed" about what it is they're purchasing.

    The content produces are doing everything in their power to make the format unattractive to technically minded people. Meaning they're scaring away all of the early adopters. Which means that the format will never be adopted.

    For me, degrading the signal over analog connections was the thing that pushed me over into the "not gonna buy it" category ...

  6. Why can't these people just go out of business? by hackstraw · · Score: 4, Insightful


    Because they suck at what they do.

    I mean, HDTV is what a late 90s thing? And we still don't have hidef content. They only hidef that I can get is from cable, satellite, or OTA TV. CDs are late 70s technology (maybe early 80s). The oldest digital recording I own is from 1978.

    Why can't these people flood us with content at a reasonable price that we simply do not have the time or need to pirate the stuff?

    My HD DVR has firewire output that I can copy the stuff to my computer. Supposedly some of the channels are encrypted, and it takes realtime to make a copy. But I never have made a copy, but I always have 80 gigs of fresh content on my DVR that I can watch anytime. I love it. Oh, and someone is getting the $70 a month or so that I pay for content, right? I mean, sometimes I even watch or listen to the commercials because I'm busy doing something else and don't feel like fiddling with the remote control.

    What I don't understand is that the content "providers" dabble in all aspects of the modern era, but they insist on putting stuff on plastic disks and sell them at a brick and mortar store. I mean, Sony makes electronics, but they are talking about making the PS3 so that it does not play Sony movies. Huh??? Time/Warner owns a cable TV outfit and internet, but won't let you download their movies or with little streaming capabilities.

    The movie industry lets TV channels broadcast their stuff. The music industry lets radio broadcast their stuff. When are they just going to get with the times and deliver modern day technology?

    Oh, the funny thing is that I would assume most people would prefer the lower quality DVDs via DRM. Look how popular iTunes and AACs and MP3s are. Can't figure that one out.

  7. The real key to acceptance: Adult Movies by imgunby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm surprised it hasn't come up more, but "pornography" has driven adoption of virtually all modern forms of media. Tin-types, 8mm movie film, VHS, DVD, DSL... you name it, and naked people (or their images) has been behind it. I'm gonna go on a limb and say whatever format is generally adopted by the adult industry is what will win out. Sony and the rest will quickly fall in line. imgunby

  8. Re:Early adopters and FULL HD resolution by paulzoop · · Score: 5, Informative

    i'm sorry, but your talking complete rubbish. i work in the film industry and 35mm film is usually scanned in at 2k which is HD. even sometimes at 4k! i've shot on 16m, 35mm, super 35mm and on hd. film is a very mature technology while HD is still very young. i spend all day examining and working with BG plates shot on both. just because HD is new and digital doesn't mean it's *currently* better than the technology it's replacing. you sound like the early audio companies that said that CD's sounded better than LP's. they didn't then and have only just arrived recently. (listen to a lynn lp12...) the funny thing is that the new cameras have special "film grain" modes...

  9. amazing rez by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 4, Funny

    The picture's so good you can see the DRM watermark!

    Now THAT'S progress people! Huzzah!

    I never recalled Indiana Jones being chased by a boulder with a giant DRM logo emblazoned on it - but the metaphor is so right ya know?