Replacing Your Tired Old DVR

An anonymous reader wrote to mention a C|Net article about a possible replacement for the DVR. Called RS-DVR, it allows customers to record shows on centrally located business-owned servers. From the article: "One uncertainty is reaction to Cablevision's service by programming networks, which have bristled at some of the cable industry's previous attempts to record shows on their systems before negotiating new broadcasting rights. Cablevision argues nothing will be recorded on its network unless the viewer orders it from the remote control--an important difference from other failed experiments. Earlier controversies had centered on Time Warner Cable's aborted Maestro service, which had proposed to automatically store programs on its network so viewers could order up just about any show that had been previously broadcasted." There are a number of possible media ownership issues here, I think. Personally, I'm happy having the shows right here on a hard drive in my home.

Comments

Very strange

[endrue]

I was looking for "Google" in that post and didn't see it anywhere!

- Andrew

No way

[timeOday]

I already pay a monthly fee to the cable company for the programming. No more monthly fees. I'm perfectly happy to record it myself and not get jerked around by another 'service provider.'

Re:No way

[bondsbw]

Agreed. If I move or my service otherwise expires, I should be able to pull up previously recorded programs any time I wish. I doubt any cable provider will let me plug up to their service after I disconnect and freely watch my recorded movies or shows.

Re:No way

[mrpeebles]

From the article, and the summary of the article, Cablevision argues nothing will be recorded on its network unless the viewer orders it from the remote control. So unless I misunderstand what you are saying, you will still have to explicity record shows. However, I would guess that you could in principle record as many simultaneously as you wanted to? Whether the companies would actually let you do this is another issue entirely, though.

Re:No way

[intangible]

Before you change ISPs, you could download a copy of all your stuff... will your 'DVR Service Provider' allow such a thing?

'Tired Old DVR'

[MattGWU]

"This is better! NO! Trust us...it's better!"

Re:'Tired Old DVR'

[1u3hr]

I'm still using a "tired old VCR", you insensitive clod.

My DVR is MythTV

[drewzhrodague]

My DVR is KnopMyth, a MythTV Knoppix distro. Why would I want to replace it? No DRM, works great, and I can burn shows I like onto DVD. I recommend this to everyone interested in a DVR.

Re:My DVR is MythTV

[drewzhrodague]

Looking back, I wish I got the PVR-500 -- or whichever model it was that has two cable tuners on the one card. THis would have been better -- imagine watching a show while two others are recording... I managed to get a PVR-150, an old 750Mhz machine, and an NVidia card with TV out (which was a low-end card, not a nice one). The PVR-150 came with a remote control, which took prolly half an hour to figure out how to setup with lirc. Otherwise, I've been just psyched to be able to watch old ST:TNG reruns whenever I want. If you have a nice livingroom, I'd suggest a nice chassis for the machine. I have a tower tucked behind a corner, which works fine, and isn't too obtrusive. It also gives me something to tuck the wires behind =_)

Re:My DVR is MythTV

[Quarters]

You do understand that the set of people containing the target audience for Cablevision's service and the set of people that know what KnopMyth is, let alone have the desire to build a box and set it up, have no union, right?

Re:My DVR is MythTV

[Anonymous Coward]

They actually have very large union. What they lack is intersect.

Re:My DVR is MythTV

[fatray]

oops! I clicked Submit instead of preview. Anyway that's the link to the myth hardware page (http://www.mythtv.org/docs/mythtv-HOWTO-3.html#ss 3.1). I would suggest going to at least 512M and to get a faster processor than you really think you need to allow for growth, addition of HDTV, etc. You will also probably want to reformat some of your recordings and that is happier on a faster processor. I use a athlon xp 2800+ and it is OK.

I think most people will want 2 capture devices--watching one thing and recording another is normal, right? That makes the Hauppaugge very attractive.

You will need more disk capacity than you imagine. Set up with LVM and it is easy to expand.

If you prefer Fedora to Knoppix, look here: http://wilsonet.com/mythtv/fcmyth.php

Privacy

[Kohath]

And if the cable company has your shows, they can be subpeonaed (by the Department of Education, for a stupidity law case). And then everyone will know you stored 10 episodes of Ricki Lake. Scary.

Re:Privacy

[jratcliffe]

Frankly, if you're storing 10 episodes of Ricki Lake, I think a trip to Gitmo is reasonable and appropriate. I'm all for free speech, but there's some conduct so reprehensible that we've just got to draw the line. :)

Re:Privacy

[Kohath]

Can it wait until next winter? Ocean-front lodgings in the tropics are just the thing to cure the winter blues.

DRM? No Way!

[mac123]

Right...and have Comcast enforce content DRM by deciding how, when and how many times I get to watch something I 'recorded'?

No thanks!

pricing

[gEvil (beta)]

I saw no mention of how much they're going to charge for this service. Knowing how these guys work, I'm guessing it's not going to be a flat monthly fee, but rather a per usage fee. Or, of course, they could combine the two and charge a monthly fee for the ability to use the service, and then throw a small per use/recording charge on top of that. After all, they gotta find some way to maximize the profitability of this thing.

On my own hard drive - exactly...

[maillemaker]

>Personally, I'm happy having the shows right here on a hard drive in my home.

Exactly. As I've said before, I've never cottoned to having my email stored on someone else's server, either.

Just give me the PIPE, man! I don't need, want, or trust any of your "services" to manage the data for me. I can do that myself, thank you very much.

Steve

mp3.com

[CheeseTroll]

Isn't this the kind of thing that got mp3.com into hot water a couple years ago?

Re:mp3.com

[matthewd]

IIRC, my.mp3.com gave subscibers access to a library of CDs that they had ripped after you "showed" them that you had that CD. Somewhat like a music storage locker where you didn't need to rip and upload the content. On their system, there was one copy of each song. "Oh, you've got that CD? We'll let you stream it from our server." You put your CDs in your computer and their app identified them and granted you access. At least one of the legal issues IIRC was that mp3.com's ripping of the CDs was not covered under fair use.

The server based DVR is supposed to record a separate copy of each show for each customer. If 1000 people want the latest episode of "The Sopranos", then 1000 individual copies are made. Inefficient, but good if you're invested in hard drive manufacturer stock. So it is different in the sense that the users are initiating the copying, and they each have their own individual copy.

Sorry, I like my "has-been" TiVo

[Overzeetop]

It's hacked, so I suck the shows off that I like and recode (actually, just re-parse - no recoding required, but sans extra fluff sections) to mpeg2. That gets stored on my Firewire hard drive tower. Some get burned for on-the-road use. Some go onto my MiVX box. Others are just stored for future reference.

(BTW, before you suggest Myth - Myth won't work for me - I have DirecTV and HD. DirecTV has already massivly compressed the shows, I've got 2 tuners in one box, and there is no full rate HD input card in my price range)

Sigh...

[787style]

Giving the customer less than they want, one technology at a time.

What about my Betamax?

[Ranger]

I'm still waiting for a replacement for my old tired Betamax and 8-track, though my 78 RPM record player is still going strong. I've found a really nifty way to make my black & white television look like it has color. It's a transparent sheet that's clear in the center section, the top part is blue to simulate sky and the bottom part is green to simulate grass.

Re:What about my Betamax?

[mspohr]

Wow... I used to actually have one of those colored plastic sheet things to put on our BW TV! My dad was always waiting for color TV to be "perfected" so we had BW for a long time. IIRC, it had a warm flesh tone area in the center (only white people were on TV in those days)... it worked amazingly well.

Re:What about my Betamax?

[jackbird]

Actually, there's a device for viewing a black and white TV in color that's cool and dangerous enough (involves viewing through a 31" disc spinning at 600 RPM) to warrant some serious consideration as a DIY project.

Why would I do this?

[spxero]

So the content providers can choose how long I have to watch something I want to record? And how is this better than having a DVR and on-demand tv?
Unless they somehow offer this 'feature' as a free service, count me out.

Please, No!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the worst idea in ages. Not only that, but as others have stated, recording shows at the cable company facilities is a little different than the legal test that was applied to an end-consumer recording video on their own VCR years ago.

Its scarey, but I forsee a time where a TV is a thin-client- basically an mpeg decoder with a remote proxy tied back to the cable company. And I do not want this. I'm very happy with my dual tuner Motorola HD PVR. (ok, I could be happier if Insight Communication hadn't updated it recently to disable my 30 second skip...which I had to program into the remote to enable to begin with)

Just imagine what the cable company will do with your video if its on their servers? You know the anoyying ads that they insist in putting into the DVR interface to waste guide space??? Imagine them being inserted over your video. Imagine remote lag- no longer can you fast forward at high speed to skip over a commercial and have any hope of hitting the play button in time for your show....its hard enough as it is now!

Questions:

[Opportunist]

1. Can you skip ads?
2. Will it still be there when the network loses the "right" to broadcast it?
3. Will it still be there in case government (or someone else) doesn't like the idea of its existance?
4. Will it be free of extra charge?
5. Will it allow "unlimited" recordings?
6. Will I be able to make local copies?

If one of those queries return "no", my answer is "no" as well and I stay with my means of recording.

Re:Good for them, bad for us.

[geoffspear]

"the industry" is not a monolithic figure.

The cable company doesn't care if you record and redistribute content. It's not hypocritical for them to do it themselves.

On the other hand, you can bet the owners of the content are going to have a problem with the cable companies time-shifting their content and getting paid for it, unless they're getting a cut of the fees and they're convinced it will make it more difficult for the end users to record, redistribute, and skip commercials. I'm sure they'd love to see the cable companies take as much DVR functionality away from the customers as they can get away with.

Industry's next big idea

[dwandy]

As a media exec, it's my job to stay on the cutting edge, and come up with new and innovative ways to get content out to my subscribers.

My first big idea of 2006? Peer to Peer networks! I'll call them p2p for short, I'm sure they will be a big success. We could charge a fee for encumbered media that only works the way we want, and expect our customers to help distribute to boot.... errr, what? p2p exists and people use it freely already to obtain unencumbered media. damn! I thought I was onto a brand new idea here.
ok; my next big idea is to record TV shows for people, and store them on my server. Then people can tell me what they want recorded and watch it later. I'm sure this one will fly! ...errr, what? people have been recording TV just fine without me for more than 20yrs? and they've been recording them digitially using a PVR for the better half of a decade?

dammit! why does the market always beat me to the punch?? there must be some way I can extort more money out of people for useless services.

Overreacting a bit, I think

[Eccles]

I have a DVR myself, and use it all the time and love it, but it wasn't cheap. If a server-side "recorder" is a cheaper option, even if it's less flexible, why is that so horrible? Providing this doesn't mean the cable companies are going to come into your house and steal your Myth box, you still have that option.

Ok, kvetch about possible cost -- though it might be cheaper than roll your own -- and limitations, but it's sounding too much like conspiracy theory here. For Joe Average who missed last night's "American Idol", this could be very handy.

Re:Overreacting a bit, I think

[heinousjay]

It's the typical flaw of taking Slashdot too seriously. The people who post here, by and large, do not represent anything near the mainstream. Reading this site makes it easy to forget that for most people, a 'fire-and-forget' system that someone else maintains is ideal. Your typical consumer doesn't want to spend six hours editing, transcoding, burning, and maintaining the storage for one show. They don't want to do research for a month to figure out how to build something they can just pay $10 a month to get from someone else. They just want to watch TV, conveniently.

That's not even mentioning the rights issues. Most people aren't concerned with their ability to share the media over the internet (and let's face it, that's really the only thing DRM really tries to restrict. Successfully is a different story.)

Re:Overreacting a bit, I think

[SydShamino]

I dunno, my DVR was free with a 2-year satellite committment, which has since run out, so it's all mine.

And if I wished to torture myself with last night's episode of American Idol, and for some reason I hadn't programmed my own DVR (or told my cable company to record it for me), I'd look for it on iTunes for just $2 once, not pay $10 a month.

Replace? they mean downgrade.

[Lumpy]

Let's see between a mythTV box or a ReplayTV or a hacked or paying the additional fees for your Tivo you can extract the recording to other machines for use on portable video devices. What they are talking about will downgrade me to no longer have that ability.

and that is only the start, I can not see ANY advantages of their proposed setup. Right now I can record and play back perfectly without my internet connection, theirs CANT.

unless it is going to be $1.25 a month it cant even begin to offset the loss in features (30 second skip is missing from the Comcast PVR and that is why I will not touch it.)

Re:Replace? they mean downgrade.

[Lumpy]

Actually with Myth this is not hard at all.

I have seen a mythbackend server on a Dual P-III 866 that had 5 PVR-250 tuner cards in it all recording from the CATV signal.

It was a sight to behold, but certianly had more complexity than most people can touch without losing sanity.

Also you can easily do this with ReplayTV. I have 3 replay 5040 units and pay 1/2 price for monthly service on all the other units after the 1st.

best part is the replayTV setup is 100% brain dead easy.

Plan to get from here to all pay per view

[sprior]

Step 1. Soften up Tivo's market share by offering your own DVR.
Step 2. Kill off Tivo entirely by moving the hard drive out of the consumers home.
Step 3. Charge $1.99 to watch a timeshifted show (*cough* itunes *cough*).

From a Cable Operator's View...

[teebob21]

Now I realize that this is Slashdot, and the majority of us here have the capability of building a homebrew MythTV or other home DVR setup, but keep in mind that your average Joe Lawyer or Suzie McCashier don't have that option. That's why the cable system I work for has about 900 DVR's out in the field in customer's homes. I think Cablevision is on the right track here, because with a simple update to the cable box software, every digital customer can have DVR access. Instant market penetration.

I can't speak for Comcast or Cox, but the MSO I work for imposes no DRM on recorded material. I can't mention the company with whom I am employed, but it's a digit less than "CableTwo".

A centrally located file server brings huge advantages to the DVR distribution model. When a digital box fails to work properly, whether it be due to lightning strike, age, or a customer filling it with water, our only option is to replace it. In the traditional home-located hard drive DVR model, any recorded shows the customer wanted to save are gone. However, if such a thing happens for a Cablevision subscriber, all you need is to slap in the new box and away you go. Also, this can reduce the number of truck rolls for a company. Anyone who currently has digital service and a box will only need to call the office, and they can enable the DVR functionality.

DVR is not on-demand, as it is the responsibility of the customer to choose which shows get recorded and when. Another Slashdotter claimed that cable co's have been trying to force VOD down customers' throats for years. In actuality, it is the public and Congress demanding that cable co's provide VOD and a-la-carte programming...which is a topic for another day.

The disadvantages of such an operation are those typically associated with putting all your eggs in one basket: If the file server goes down without appropriate backup, many customers lose their DVR files.

In response to an earlier post regarding subpoenaed TV shows: The cable co DVR is usually leased,not owned; and in the case of a subpoena, the courts STILL get the files.