EU Throws out Microsoft's Vista Font Trademark

vitaly.friedman writes "Microsoft has lost another round at the EU though this time it has nothing to do with the antitrust case. This time the dispute is over fonts; specifically Segoe, one of the typefaces Microsoft wants to use in Vista. Microsoft filed its "registered community design" for the font back in January of 2004, paid the required fee, and everything was great until December." A copy of the decision is also available.

Comments

Quick!

[MS_Word]

Someone patent losing court cases!

Re:Quick!

[50m31sl4sh.]

Someone patent losing court cases!

Whoever dares to do so risks putting himself into infinite loop.

Re:Quick!

[Krach42]

No, read the details of the case. Microsoft told the EU that Segoe was identical to Frutiger Next.

Naturally no one should be able to register an IP that is identical to someone else's.

Re:Quick!

[Luctius]

No, its just that the EU does say no to microsoft.

Re:Quick!

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it just me that's getting the impression that the EU has something against Microsoft?

Yes, bright spark, it is just you. Frutiger (and its close relative Frutiger Next) is an extremely famous typeface and one that's existed since the 1960s. Microsoft then makes a copy of this font (have a look yourself—it's that obvious) then tries to register it as its own and you think it's unfair that this application was denied?

Give me a break.

Re:Quick!

[Xiph]

Or possibly, they've picked up on MicroSofts way of doing things, and are starting to put their "requests" under some scrutiny.
As they should do with any company.

In case you didn't know

[Krach42]

Segoe is essentially identical to Frutiger Next, and specifically the problem in the EU, is that someone at Microsoft told the EU that it *was* identical to Frutiger Next.

So, it's naturally really hard to get a trademark on a typeface that you previously said was identical to Frutiger Next.

At the bottom of the wiki page, they have a comparison of the two, the biggest different is the capital Q, where the tail is shifted slightly, and that's all. Oh, the numeral 1 also looks different. Everything else is identical.

Re:In case you didn't know

[Krach42]

Actually, typefaces are a huge pain in the butt to deal with. Worse than even trademarks.

Basically, I don't know if Linotype have any reasonable grounds to sue MS over this, that's how screwed up typeface issues are.

The big things come down to, fundamentally, every typeface is going to look similar, if the didn't they wouldn't be readable. So, dealing with all that is just a big pain in the butt.

Apple chose to include their Apple logo in the fonts, this is partly so they can use it in random applications, but more so that because Apple owns a trademark on the Apple logo, no one can distribute their fonts under *trademark* law, not just typeface law.

This isn't the first font though that Microsoft straight up copied. Arial (which you may be using to view this site even) is just Helvetica, in as much Segoe is Frutiger Next. Don't think MS would open themselves that wide open to a lawsuit by saying that it's identical, no matter how stupid you think someone is, doing something like that is beyond stupid.

Re:In case you didn't know

[WhiteWolf666]

Because it's entirely different if it was their font designer who said it or if it was a random employee whom they asked "hey, do these two look the same to you?"

IIRC, their attorney said it infront of the board of inquiry.

Their defense was not, "The Fonts are Different".

Their defense was, "The Fonts are the same, but they have no proof they sold it first, because although the invoice they show you is from 2000, the CD they presented was pressed in 2005."

That's a goofy defense.

Re:In case you didn't know

[Plug]

Segoe UI is a ripoff of Frutiger Next.
Frutiger Next is an upgrade of Frutiger.
Adrian Frutiger created the Frutiger typeface by updating the typeface he created for Orly Airport. .: Windows Vista - O RLY?

See for yourself

[Odin_Tiger]

Here's a side-by-side comparison of the two fonts.

Re:See for yourself

[mcvos]

Looks like Segoe is Frutiger bold.

Re:See for yourself

[Irish_Samurai]

Actually, I see notable differences between G,J,Q,c,f,g,and j. Please note we are talking about typefaces here, and the differences WILL be subtle.

Re:See for yourself

[miyako]

The 1 and 8 are also different. Segoe uses a bottom line on the 1, and has a slightly smaller upper loop on the 8, whereas frutiger omits the bottom line on the 1, and uses equal sized loops on top and bottom for the 8.
Overall though, I do think the differences are more subtle than between most fonts.

Segoe

[Philip K Dickhead]

God! Don't let an MS'er send you Segoe documents! They embed the bloody font, and then use Rights-Management to keep you from changing it!

You have to PRINT the thing to read it.

Is a DISASTER on screen - anti-aliased or not. I'm not kidding. If I could include screen caps I would. Unreadable to the point of physical injury.

SegoeUI was created at MS to use in Titlebars and Menus. This is OK with ClearType enabled. It is still unreadable in Vista's tilebars -which arbitrarily use transparency under AeroGlass. It's not like the OS X transparency - which many people don't even notice. It does nothing to distinguish the active window in a meaningful way - and actually impairs the ability to read any title on the screen.

Talk about "not getting it". If you rip off the right things, without the right understanding, you will always fu*k them up.

Re:Segoe

[imboboage0]

Actually, i use Segoe UI for everything.

I have it set as Firefox's default font. I use it in my Winamp Playlist. It's my font for AIM. Looks great in titlebars. Creates very smooth looking tect on icons and the such. In fact' I'd recommend it for just about anything. All you have to do is turn on ClearType and tweak it. Bam. Good to go. I dunno how it looks to you, but it looks smooth to me.

Here's a couple screenies I took for ya. Agree or disagree; I still like it.
http://darkfiles2.servebeer.com/images/segoeui.png
http://darkfiles2.servebeer.com/images/segoeui2.pn g

Penny wise, pound foolish

[jfengel]

The wiki page says that Linotype wants a penny per OS copy licensed. That's vastly, vastly cheaper than trying to buy a font. And although it does come to tens of millions of dollars, it's still a lot less than fighting court cases. Why not just pay the $.01 and be done with it?

Linotype seems to own the font fair and square. Why try to cheat them out of their millimeter of green for it?

Re:Penny wise, pound foolish

[observer7]

because its Microsoft. this animal hasn't changed sine its glory days like the way it did vendors and Netscape , it still goes ahead and keeps on with the cheating and dirty tricks . courts and law is going to get them because of the viable alternatives out there like linux and os x . Microsoft is starting its hedgomany as Linux and social collaboration spreads .we may be seeing the begining of the end of the windows dynasty

Re:Penny wise, pound foolish

[WhiteWolf666]

Microsoft doesn't settle until they've forced the other guy to spend millions (tens of millions?) on legal costs.

To Microsoft, its not about how much it costs MS; its about how much its costs YOU.

They're willing to spend $1,000 to for your company to spend $10, because MS has tons of cash. This is standard Microsoft fare; look at Caldera, Stacker, and many other companies that were blatantly ripped off by MS. MS does settle; just after their opponent is dead (or crippled).

Re:Penny wise, pound foolish

[Haeleth]

Because if they settle there, then not only do they open themselves up to the Helvetica and Palatino, but they'd have to stop the practice for the one they steal AFTER this one.

What "Helvetica"? If you're referring to Arial, then it's by no means a stolen Helvetica; they're totally different designs, and anyone who knows anything about type can tell them apart at a glance. People get annoyed about Arial because it's ugly, not because it's "stolen".

And what "Palatino"? Book Antiqua? Ancient history. Microsoft more than made up for it when they actually licensed the genuine Palatino from Linotype -- it's been bundled with Windows since Win2k.

By the way, this is nothing to do with "settling", "stealing", or "opening themselves up". This is a case of them being denied a trademark. There has been no lawsuit and no claim of damages or illegal activity: the only claim Linotype made was that Segoe was not an original design.

Re:Penny wise, pound foolish

[ChildeRoland]

If they make 10s of millions of dollars at $0.01 each, that implies that billions of copies of Windows will be sold, which is very, very unlikely.

Re:Penny wise, pound foolish

[Lars T.]

They didn't steal, they inovated new names.

Re:Penny wise, pound foolish

[Overly Critical Guy]

What a total load of crap! Total MS fanboy defensiveness.

What "Helvetica"? If you're referring to Arial, then it's by no means a stolen Helvetica

Uh, yes, it absolutely is. It's a third-rate clone of Helvetica done by a company called Monotype so Microsoft didn't have to pay license fees. I guess you have no idea of history, so here, I'll educate you--read this called The Scourge of Arial where its dubious history is discussed. It's a "shameless imposter" of Helvetica thrust upon the world.

; they're totally different designs,

No, unless you think "totally different" means very minor differences.

and anyone who knows anything about type can tell them apart at a glance.

Because experienced designers know what goofy little changes exist in the ugly clone of Helvetica.

People get annoyed about Arial because it's ugly, not because it's "stolen".

Wrong, they're annoyed because it's stolen, and NOT ONLY is it a clone, but it's a bad, ugly one.

And what "Palatino"? Book Antiqua? Ancient history. Microsoft more than made up for it when they actually licensed the genuine Palatino from Linotype -- it's been bundled with Windows since Win2k.

Haha, no it's NOT "ancient history," and to claim Microsoft magically made up for their evil ways after they were forced to license the real font after everyone made a stink about it is total fanboyism.

By the way, this is nothing to do with "settling", "stealing", or "opening themselves up". This is a case of them being denied a trademark. There has been no lawsuit and no claim of damages or illegal activity: the only claim Linotype made was that Segoe was not an original design.

And as par for the course at Microsoft, it's not.

Take off the blinders. Next.

Woo-hoo!

[Java Ape]

It takes some serious chutzpah to steal a font outright and then try to get legal protection of "your" work. And they'd have gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddeling judges. Microsoft's arguments were pathetic -- they've obviously gotten used to bought-and-paid-for system in the U.S. (*SIGH*).

Next week I think I'll register a few new fonts:

• Messenger: Looks a lot like Courier
• Verbatim: Somewhat resembles Verdana
• Times Ripoff: Amazing similar to Times New Roman

You know, font development isn't easy -- it's much harder than it first appears to build a font that is attractive, easily readable, and infinitely scalable. Using Microsoft's new font-development technique, even a yutz like me can produce attractive fonts in minutes. Maybe Microsoft should patent the technique of "stealing from others" -- they've used it enough they might be able to get trademark protection on it as well.

Re:So . . .

[Rob T Firefly]

Sure you can! Just so long as you don't hang it too near near my masterpiece sculpture of "Thinking Guy," not to be confused with Rodin's "The Thinker, which has much shorter sideburns.

Nothing new here

[Mistshadow2k4]

I'm repeating myself by posting musch the same response as I did to this at Digg, but here goes anyway (my apologies to those who read it there). This kind of thing happens all the time in the world of fonts -- I used to collect them. I don't know how many virtually identical fonts I've seen, all of which were copyrighted by some company or other. Not similar, truly identical. And then there's many, many fonts that are copied from another source, such as typeface you've seen from popular movies. And these are all copyrighted too; I'm pretty sure that most of those wouldn't hold up in court. (Has anyone else noticed that it's so difficult to do nothing illegal nowadays becauses of patents and copyrights that it comes down to a matter of whether it would hold up in court? But I digress.)

Not only that, but many of these fonts are DRMed to the hilt, which the true type font format is set up for. Imagine, you recognize where they got the font from and you can't even use it to write a document to print out because it's DRMed so that the only purpose it serves on your system is so you can read web pages made with that font. So that violates fair usage too. In short, they basically get away with murder when it comes to fonts because no one is going to sue them.... or at least, hasn't so far.

One glaring example of both that springs to mind is a font that is a copy of Jimi's Hendrix's handwriting. And the maker of the font copyrighted and DRMed it. Imagine how Janie Hendrix might react if she got hold of that font and found out she couldn't even use it. How would you like it if someone copied your dead brother's handwriting to make a font and then DRMed it? (Yeah, yeah, I realize people familiar with my posts are probably Hendrixed out by now, but this a good example.) Or better still, if they copied the writing style from you?

Microsoft versus society

[Gyarados]

Can't we go one day without Microsoft doing something immoral or illegal?

{pffftwh}

[tinkertim]

There, that is my fart. It is unique, can't be copied and I'd like to trademark it please. Like everything else that is published on the internet, I'm going to throw a big fat copyright on it so nobody can steal it. Don't you dare fart like I just did, that is my intellectual property and trademark!

I illustrated my point with a fart to signify that the I.T world is rapidly becoming a very smelly place to conduct business. Small companies follow the examples of larger successful companies and paranoia is highly contageous - beginning to show. How many non disclosure agreements have YOU signed this month?

I can't believe they tried to patent something so .. idiotic in the first place. Can they for once, just ONCE produce something quietly, release it and sell it like everyone else does?

If MS was truly concerned about covering their ass they would write more secure operating systems. They don't do that, they patent everything they possibly can to try to squeeze every last cent out of the junk they produce and have turned suing small companies into a cottage industry over stupid technicalities. This was aimed to get their 'digs' into the EU so they could snuff out anyone who stole the font they already stole.

Will each Vista PC come with an attached penis that pops out of the top and urinates "BILL WAS HERE" on your wall? If they hope to keep *any* of the market share they've enjoyed gouging over the past decades they need to do a complete about face and focus on serving the needs of their customers.

I wish I could make neat cartoons in flash. I see willy wonka's chocolate factory making fonts as secret as the ever-lasting-gob-stopper for Microsoft.

Mr Gates, You have my permission to use my newly patented {pffftwh} to blow your HEAD out of your ASS so you can actually RELEASE something useful.

Re:Helvetica is not like Arial

[r00t]

That sums it up if you read between the lines: Arial is the new and improved font which replaces Helvetica. Helvetica is obsolete because of Arial.

The "Grotesque" font, Arial's other ancestor, looks rather nice as well. I guess that was the attractive parent.

Pictures:

http://www.ms-studio.com/articlesarialsid.html